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I think the New Disney Animation Renaissance might have topped the previous one
- Thread starter EdReedFan20
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DontBeThatGuy
Member
Easily one of the weaker Disney efforts of the 90's.
Tarzan occupies a weird place in the Disney canon. It actually made more money (adjusted for inflation) than any Disney film between The Lion King and Frozen, but its pop cultural legacy is virtually nonexistent.
Shrek is a classic. Or atleast very close to. Tangled... exists.
KeyBladerXIII
Member
It sucks that it has no legacy because Disney isn't allowed to do anything new with it to keep it in the public's eye since they lost the rights. No new merchandise, no new rides or shows at Disney, no return to Deep Jungle in Kingdom Hearts. The most they can do is continue selling the movie.
Cpt Conifer
Member
It's reached the point where I can't whine about CG anymore. You'd best believe I was at the forefront of that charge up until, like, 2013... but with Wreck it Ralph, Moana, and Frozen, the line that divides the advantages between the two mediums are growing increasingly blurred for me. I guess it's strides they've made in that soft lighting, cloth physics, water, and movement in general.
One cute little opinion I have about the 1st renaissance is I just don't dig The Lion King as much as Little Mermaid, Alladin, or Beauty & The Beast. I don't know what my problem is. The way people generally talk in it, from Pumba and Timone to both forms of Simba, just put me off. "Can't Wait to be King" seems to be one of the few Disney songs that get under my skin to the extent that I'll try to physically remove myself if I'm near where it's being played.
One cute little opinion I have about the 1st renaissance is I just don't dig The Lion King as much as Little Mermaid, Alladin, or Beauty & The Beast. I don't know what my problem is. The way people generally talk in it, from Pumba and Timone to both forms of Simba, just put me off. "Can't Wait to be King" seems to be one of the few Disney songs that get under my skin to the extent that I'll try to physically remove myself if I'm near where it's being played.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
While I agree Hiro's grief is unique in that it lasted the whole movie unlike say TLK which was treated more as plotpoint halfway on, I think TLK did it a bit more different in that it didn't go for the revenge focus but more on self-blame and disbelief. But you have a point. WIR I like but to this day still has me bothered on certain aspects (I still can't accept that an undeserving jackass of all people was the one who gave Ralph "the talk").
And I think Hunchback could still work with Disney, they just really need to remove the elements they keep putting in on. Like I think the movie would immediately see improvement if they limit the gargoyles.
Didn't say I like it, but I do know many people take the wrong impression/idea on the film (like what I said, King Triton. Yeah he redeemed himself towards the end - but man people were dead set on saying "Ariel didn't deserve his sacrifice!" or some shit like that).
iirc the Disney Tarzan is a major alteration since it changes a bunch of characters, like Kerchack being actually a combination of two different characters. While I think the movie is watchable I feel the series (yeah they had an animated series, was kinda surprised back then too) was much better because it explored a lot of the setting.
I think it's due to rights. Disney couldn't use it a lot because of rights issues and eventually it expired.
I think that's a common opinion on the song. I love TLK but man I hate Can't Wait to be King, even if it's a character establishment song lol
Pocahontas says otherwise.
KenzinFive
Member
Two days removed from seeing Moana, I think I can still honestly say that it's not only as good as the 90s Renaissance films, it's actively better than most of them. It's easily better than Little Mermaid and I honestly find it better than Aladdin. Lion King and Beauty & the Beast are the only ones that are clearly better to me, but it's honestly been over a decade since I've seen them in full.
On the animation side, I challenge those who find CG animation to be lacking in comparison to 2D to please give this movie a look. I was the same way until recently,. Moana finally established to me that CG animation is not only caught up, but might honestly be superior in some specific aspects. There's some utterly jaw-dropping shots and scenes in the movie that I won't spoil, other than to say that they were honestly on par with Miyazaki/Studio Ghibli at times.
Moana isn't as densely written as Zootopia, which is a movie that had a fuck-ton of things to say and topics to cover. It's very much a hero's journey, but it's told very well. As great and fun as you can probably assume Maui is, Moana herself is just as good. It is 100% her movie, and other princesses need to step up their game when compared to the shit that she gets done in her story.
I can see why some people might find Moana's music lacking. I mean, I STRONGLY disagree with them, but I can see why. Moana's songs can be reprise-heavy, with several songs often referencing and calling back to one another. Lin-Manuel Miranda does this to excellent effect in Hamilton, and I love how it's done in Moana. Moana's development as a character is tied to the songs that get reprised, which honestly feels more like a conventional Broadway musical.
However, if you're used to every song being distinct and wildly different in a Disney musical, I can see why it might be disappointing. But there's four songs in Moana that stand with Disney's best: How Far I'll Go, We Know the Way, You're Welcome, and I Am Moana (which sorta reprises elements of How Far I'll Go). Shiny is pretty good as a villain song/Bowie tribute, but not as good as, say, Friends on the Other Side.
If I were to put analogues to some of Moana's songs, it would go like this:
How Far I'll Go = Go the Distance (but way better)
We Know the Way = Circle of Life (realllly even to be honest)
You're Welcome = Friend Like Me (not as crazy and manic, but definitely catchy)
On the animation side, I challenge those who find CG animation to be lacking in comparison to 2D to please give this movie a look. I was the same way until recently,. Moana finally established to me that CG animation is not only caught up, but might honestly be superior in some specific aspects. There's some utterly jaw-dropping shots and scenes in the movie that I won't spoil, other than to say that they were honestly on par with Miyazaki/Studio Ghibli at times.
Moana isn't as densely written as Zootopia, which is a movie that had a fuck-ton of things to say and topics to cover. It's very much a hero's journey, but it's told very well. As great and fun as you can probably assume Maui is, Moana herself is just as good. It is 100% her movie, and other princesses need to step up their game when compared to the shit that she gets done in her story.
I can see why some people might find Moana's music lacking. I mean, I STRONGLY disagree with them, but I can see why. Moana's songs can be reprise-heavy, with several songs often referencing and calling back to one another. Lin-Manuel Miranda does this to excellent effect in Hamilton, and I love how it's done in Moana. Moana's development as a character is tied to the songs that get reprised, which honestly feels more like a conventional Broadway musical.
However, if you're used to every song being distinct and wildly different in a Disney musical, I can see why it might be disappointing. But there's four songs in Moana that stand with Disney's best: How Far I'll Go, We Know the Way, You're Welcome, and I Am Moana (which sorta reprises elements of How Far I'll Go). Shiny is pretty good as a villain song/Bowie tribute, but not as good as, say, Friends on the Other Side.
If I were to put analogues to some of Moana's songs, it would go like this:
How Far I'll Go = Go the Distance (but way better)
We Know the Way = Circle of Life (realllly even to be honest)
You're Welcome = Friend Like Me (not as crazy and manic, but definitely catchy)
Shrek is a grotesque film in every way imaginable.
Frozen is definitely not a good movie if you appreciate good storytelling.
Chezzymann
Member
Yeah I think OP should have waited 5 years before making this thread
Stop stop, I can't breathe. When Marahute pushes Cody over the waterfall and the music hits its peak, I stop breathing. That scene has always been one of my favourites.
On topic...I wouldn't say new is beating old, however, movies like Tangled, Zootopia, Frozen and Moana are some of my fave Disney films anyway.
I think Tangled has been my favourite so far, it's actually up there as one of my favourite animated films.
Vermillion
Banned
Having spent time looking at how Pixar's stuff is created, reducing it to "computer generated nonsense" is a *severe* disservice.
KenzinFive
Member
When I was younger, I thought Shrek 2 was fantastic and better than 1. I'm not even talking as a kid, I mean in my mid-teens when I had already developed some sort of discerning taste.
Now though? It has not aged well at all. So much of its humor is referential and supremely dated. Now I consider the first Shrek better, but even then, it's not on par with Dreamworks' best. Kung Fu Panda 1 & 2 and How to Train Your Dragon are all much better films. Dreamworks just needed that Shrek money before they could actually get creative.
I really want a full-blown feature for whatever they did with Paperman.
Maybe it's been said already but I believe Moana was supposed to be in that style but the tech wasn't ready yet. Hopefully in a couple years
I actually dislike a lot of the older Disney films (1930-70) because the characters and stories come off as very uninteresting. I still think Sleeping Beauty is a bad movie because, while I love Maleficent, the Prince and Princess are one-dimensional cardboard cutouts.
Good animation can't save that (IMO).
Good animation can't save that (IMO).
Fahzgoolin
Banned
Zootopia was timely and wonderful.
I assume grotesque is a bad thing?
Considering Tangled > Frozen... that's probably when the new era should start. It's also the point where I guess they officially gave up on 2D animation.
To heck with either renaissance.
Higitus Figitus was the peak of Disney and I will not hear otherwise.
It's always sad to see people downplay 3D animation like it's somehow a lesser art-form than traditional animation simply because it's created using computers. I mean, technical skill and artistry are still required just as much as in 2D animation. It's not like they just plug an algorithm into Maya and then wait two years for a movie to be shat out.
Higitus Figitus was the peak of Disney and I will not hear otherwise.
It's always sad to see people downplay 3D animation like it's somehow a lesser art-form than traditional animation simply because it's created using computers. I mean, technical skill and artistry are still required just as much as in 2D animation. It's not like they just plug an algorithm into Maya and then wait two years for a movie to be shat out.
In fairness, Disney used to incorporate songs into most of their films. Now, it seems that only Princess films will be getting songs period.
arts&crafts
Member
Old Disney is best thanks to The Great Mouse Detective
SchrodingerC
Member
I hope Disney eventually has more stylized 3D films n the near future. Their current 3D art style is blending together and that would be a big disservice to the company's past work.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I think Shrek 2 still holds up in humor. Even if you think pop culture stuff is outdated, it had moments that still work, and the cosmopolitan fairy tale setting really has it down perfectly. People are only crass about it because "it looks like our modern city but with folktale setting", but honestly I think that setting makes it very creative and appealing.
SporeCrawler
Member
No because
1. Aside of frozen and tangled there are not so many memorable skngs
2. Not hand drawn
1. Aside of frozen and tangled there are not so many memorable skngs
2. Not hand drawn
I used to be like you. Then the tech caught up and I pulled my head out of my ass.
In this case, yes. Repulsive by every measure, offensive to every sensibility.
SporeCrawler
Member
This isnlt about tech. Its about love and effort that goes into each scene. Im fine with how 3D animation looks but it lacks the attention to detail and labor that is poured into hand drawn animation
I agree that the stories in general are better in the modern films. Zootopia for example is something you wouldnt have seen in the 90s
Psychoward
Banned
No.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I mean, I understand preference, but I dislike this notion that CGI don't get love and labor too. Because god knows saying that to Kung Fu Panda's very amazing moves that pretty much mimicked martial arts films is very insulting to the people that did that film.
You can still see them, you just need to know where to look. Like a bunch of Miyazaki or Bluth films.
While I agree on a majority of their old films, for Sleeping Beauty it's less about Aurora and the Prince, and more of Malifecent and the fairies.
SporeCrawler
Member
Hunchback had a big impact on me. Very dark themes (like Frollo raising quasi modo to be his puppet/servant, frollos sexual desires, the one sided love of quasi modo etc.) incorporated masterfully into the disney format. Its certainly one of my favorites of that era.
Shinkai Makoto and Hosoda mamoru
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
eeeehhh for Hosoda I feel he got better after Girl Who Leapt Through Time or around that time
like, Summer Wars is a much better Our War Game, with more defined character design rather than looking flat and blobbish, and they have no dead eyes!
(and I think Boy and Beast is kinda on the ehhh side)
I actually haven't heard of Makoto and looking up his works I haven't seen any of them, but he mentioned his favorite anime is Laputa so that makes the guy automatically 20/10 for me
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
I do wish that the current Disney films had more distinct art styles. Hercules looked different from Pocahontas which looked different from Mulan which looked different from The Hunchback of Notre Dame. The 3D films' art styles have been blending together for me because they're all using the same style with new characters and settings.
Of the 3D Disney films I've watched, Tangled was the closest they've got to a 2D animated movie in terms of animation and art style, and I assume a lot of that is thanks to Glen Keane.
Of the 3D Disney films I've watched, Tangled was the closest they've got to a 2D animated movie in terms of animation and art style, and I assume a lot of that is thanks to Glen Keane.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Yeah this I agree. Fucking Hiro looks like a disney princess with his face template, and you could even see it a bit in Nick.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
While you are probably right with the majority of your post...
Hercules is a lot of things, but a princess and animals movie it aint. Its a Rocky/Superman story and I will say its much more succesful at the hero story than big hero six (even wreck it ralph is more succesful at being a hero movie than big hero six).
The only animal is Pegassus and you have that type of horse or something similar in the majority of disney movies even when its not about animals or princesses.
And meg is the antithesis of the disney princess.
Heck I would say baymax makes big hero six more of an animal movie, even if he is a robot, because he acts like a disney movie animal and he has a main roll
Yeah, sorry bossdoggie, didnt meant to go directly aginst what you say, only talking about the general hate the movie gets.
Although i dont think its only woods the one who mde hades great nd such a lovable villain, its also the car selling type of character and design disney added to it.
Spanish hades with the amazing pep anton muñoz also is incredible (and better than woods IMO)
I never liked Tarzan, even if its not part of it, i will always throw it to the dark ages pit becuase its a transition piece, and a boring as hell one at that.
Also South Park was the better musical and should have gotten the song oscar that year.
Wut?
Hercules is a lot of things, but a princess and animals movie it aint. Its a Rocky/Superman story and I will say its much more succesful at the hero story than big hero six (even wreck it ralph is more succesful at being a hero movie than big hero six).
The only animal is Pegassus and you have that type of horse or something similar in the majority of disney movies even when its not about animals or princesses.
And meg is the antithesis of the disney princess.
Heck I would say baymax makes big hero six more of an animal movie, even if he is a robot, because he acts like a disney movie animal and he has a main roll
Yeah, sorry bossdoggie, didnt meant to go directly aginst what you say, only talking about the general hate the movie gets.
Although i dont think its only woods the one who mde hades great nd such a lovable villain, its also the car selling type of character and design disney added to it.
Spanish hades with the amazing pep anton muñoz also is incredible (and better than woods IMO)
I never liked Tarzan, even if its not part of it, i will always throw it to the dark ages pit becuase its a transition piece, and a boring as hell one at that.
Also South Park was the better musical and should have gotten the song oscar that year.
ThePrequelsSuck
Banned
Why is Fantasia 2000 not considered a Renaissance movie?
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Becuase the cut of the second golden era for most people is 1999 with Tarzan (a movie that IMO is the one that started the transition to the dark era, as much as some people love it).
Fantasia 2000's premiere is considered a 2000 movie, and that means to the dark ages pit with it.
And doesnt surprise me because apart of the great and amazing Rhapsody in Blue set in 1930's new york, and Donald's pomp and circumstance segments, and the repeat of Mickey's aprentice, but thats a repeat. The movie is a meh successor to the original Fantasia, that even uses CG, one of the staples of the transition, in one of its segments.
ThePrequelsSuck
Banned
SixMachine
Member
I managed to see it Thanksgiving day, and overall while it looked nice, the only part that looked really nice was
the glowing blue manta ray when she takes the boat to go past the reef after her grandma dies because of the glow and lighting. I didn't really think anything else shown really was a tier above any other CGI have seen recently. I did like the design of that one creepy monster when she fell into the demon pit though.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Quite the opposite, you need teams of people to animate a single CGI character throughout the film. With a 2D character you are always cheating composition since space is artificial,you only animate what you see, but a CGi character exists in a 3d space. Stop Motion is still the one that requires the most time and work, but CGI is easily the one that allows animators to create more numerous actions, emotions, and details per second; so rather than leaving it at the amount of information they would be restricted with hand drawn, they add the difference allowed by the technique.
Hell, 3d character animators do 2d pencil tests before committing to the rig. For example, animating the 3d tentacles of the octopus from Finding Dory was so much work, in fact, that animating the shots with 2d tentacles for visualization was infinitely more practical than doing any rough work with the 3d tentacles.
3d characters save time because they that much more efficient at having people work on them at the same time, but they also carry more information in their movement at the millions of dollars feature level.
edit: but I would agree with some other scene elements that are not characters, and depend on physics that are handled with simulation.
I think that it's mostly hipster pushback when people try to shit talk stuff like Frozen - it's legitimately amazing.
That said, the OG ren Disney movies are literally perfect. Sorry, 2010's, but you don't have The Little Mermaid or Beauty and The Beast.
I'll also fight anyone that says Ariel isn't the best Disney Princess.
That said, the OG ren Disney movies are literally perfect. Sorry, 2010's, but you don't have The Little Mermaid or Beauty and The Beast.
I'll also fight anyone that says Ariel isn't the best Disney Princess.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
I dont know why but I knew you were going to try to look in wiki or imdb to see if I was wrong because i knew the american date was december, and you did. But still, for most of the world is a 2000 movie (it even wants to capture that with its title), and even then its a december during its premiere, so its just some days off.
My point still stands.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
While I don't really like BnB that much I consider Belle to be the best Disney princess (that fits the actual princess title, and even then shouldn't she be queen?) Otherwise if we stretch it as a marketing term I'll put Mulan as the best Disney princess.
Nala is Simba's sister, so no.
No she isn't.
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