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[Ratrat]

Just Frozen though.
Also no one remember those Bluth films. I love films like Nimh, El Dorado, Iron Giant, Titan AE or whatever, but no one cares about them. Today there is nothing that differentiates Disney outside of songs imo. Anyone can tell Bluth wasn't Disney. Can kids now tell the studio of Zootopia, Secret Life of Pets and Ratatouille apart? Megamind, Incredibles, Big Hero 6?

HTTYD, Rango, Lego Movie, Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, Paranorman, Song of the Sea and a bunch of other movies are better than most of the current output.

 

[Garlador]

Just Frozen though.
Also no one remember those Bluth films. I love films like Nimh, El Dorado, Iron Giant, Titan AE or whatever, but no one cares about them. Today there is nothing that differentiates Disney outside of songs imo. Anyone can tell Bluth wasn't Disney. Can kids now tell the studio of Zootopia, Secret Life of Pets and Ratatouille apart? Megamind, Incredibles, Big Hero 6?

HTTYD, Rango, Lego Movie, Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, Paranorman, Song of the Sea and a bunch of other movies are better than most of the current output.

Er, yes, I can tell them apart. Easily.

And Bluth was once a Disney guy himself. And plenty of people remember his films fondly.

And not just Frozen. Frozen is just the biggest. My cousin's favorite is Tangled. I'm fairly confident Moana will be many young kids' new favorite. Zootopia was wildly popular globally and it definitely is going to linger (the furry community will never let it go....).

There are a lot of great animated films by many studios but that was the case back in the Renaissance too. I like Rango just fine. I like Song of the Sea. But those are never going to resonate with kids like a Tangled, Frozen, Zootopia, or Moana.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Hey now, old films stopped with the princess stuff. Mulan wasn't a princess out of technicality (she is only labeled as such via marketing - expect Moana to fill that if she sells) and romance was barely there for her as family honor was her main endgame. Lilo and Stitch didn't have any princesses at all and it was less about animals even (no, Stitch isn't an animal), and again focused more about a broken family.

 

[Ratrat]

Er, yes, I can tell them apart. Easily.

And Bluth was once a Disney guy himself. And plenty of people remember his films fondly.

And not just Frozen. Frozen is just the biggest. My cousin's favorite is Tangled. I'm fairly confident Moana will be many young kids' new favorite. Zootopia was wildly popular globally and it definitely is going to linger (the furry community will never let it go....).

There are a lot of great animated films by many studios but that was the case back in the Renaissance too. I like Rango just fine. I like Song of the Sea. But those are never going to resonate with kids like a Tangled, Frozen, Zootopia, or Moana.

Minions, Secret Life of Pets and Ice Age make obscene amounts of money and 'resonate' with kids too. Will Big Hero 6 or Tangled really stick out in the sea of these other animated films grossing nearly a billion each in 20 years? They are still closer to Dreamworks than say, Pixar, Ghibli or Laika at this point.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Minions, Secret Life of Pets and Ice Age make obscene amounts of money and 'resonate' with kids too. Will Big Hero 6 or Tangled really stick out in the sea of these other animated films grossing nearly a billion each in 20 years? They are still closer to Dreamworks than say, Pixar, Ghibli or Laika at this point.

I take offense to that simply because of the assumption that other animated studios being "low brow" (which is ironic when you consider Pixar and hell, even some of Ghibli's stuff)

 

[Garlador]

Minions, Secret Life of Pets and Ice Age make obscene amounts of money and 'resonate' with kids too. Will Big Hero 6 or Tangled really stick out in the sea of these other animated films grossing nearly a billion each in 20 years? They are still closer to Dreamworks than say, Pixar, Ghibli or Laika at this point.

Those are mostly good films. They do resonate with kids (and adults). They're a different flavor than Disney films, but they're good in their own unique ways and resonate with kids in a different way too. Kids are not monolithic and are allowed to like two things that aren't similar.

Tangled already did stick out in a sea of other animated films and was highly successful. More importantly, it's still successful and making a splash. Seven years after its debut, it's still selling Rapunzel dolls at a solid pace and it's got an on-going animated show debuting in 2017 with the original cast.

So is Big Hero 6, for that matter. It's also getting an on-going TV show on Disney in 2017.

Just because something is popular for a moment doesn't mean it'll remain popular. Shrek 2 was once the most successful animated film ever, and the Shrek franchise has cooled considerably since then, and a lot of its self-referential humor hasn't held up well. Disney doesn't play the short-game; they play the long-game.

Folks even tend to forget that Frozen didn't debut at #1. It wasn't breaking records upon its debut. It was like The Little Mermaid, rarely climbing the charts but just holding steady and strong for weeks and weeks and months and months. Big, record-breaking blockbusters debuted at #1... and then dropped off charts, and there Frozen was, hanging on at #3 and #4 for months on end. It was STILL in the top 10 by the time the Blu-Ray hit stores.

That's the testament to a Disney film... not its box office records, but its longevity. It's hard to say what the legacy of the new Renaissance will be years from now, since we're still living it and it's still fairly recent, but already it's shaping up to be something timeless in the same way Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, and The Little Mermaid were to a generation of kids.

The wife and I walked through the Walmart toy aisle yesterday shopping for my cousins, and it's packed full of Frozen dolls, Big Hero 6 action figures, and Zootopia merchandise. There's Rapunzel dolls right alongside Mulan and Belle dolls.

It's not even remotely my favorite Disney film, but Tangled I'm fairly confident in saying has cemented its place as a Disney classic. Frozen, on the other hand, is still a merchandising machine that still eclipses the entire Disney Princess line all on its own. It's readily apparent its success wasn't a short fad or a brief box office window.

I'm curious to see if Zootopia and Moana will have similar legs.

 

[jett]

I really don't think so.

It's impossible to beat the quadruple whammy of the Little Mermaid, the Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin and The Lion King.

 

[Mosse]

I think the newer movies are great. But I prefer the last renaissance because of the music, not enough Alan Menken in this one.

 

[old manatee]

I feel really numb to cgi right now. New Disney 3d animated features look very similar to everyone else's 3d animated features, and also to video games and live action movies with a lot of cgi.

 

[Xun]

This maybe of interest to you guys:

http://randyhaycock.tumblr.com/post/153572172702/i-did-some-traditionally-animated-character

 

[Shambalakan]

Maybe it's only nostalgia, but these new animations aren't comparable with The Lion King and Aladdin for me. (and maybe Hercules) Although I haven't watched Aladdin and Hercules in years, but watched The Lion King a year ago and still think it's a masterpiece.
Among the new animations, I really LOVE Wreck-it Ralph and it's one of the best animations of my life.

 

[kingocfs]

These four movies in the span of five years.



Brutal.

Yeah. Nothing touches these.

 

[sixteen-bit]

y'all can't fuck w/ Lion King and Aladdin imo

 

[Garlador]

I feel really numb to cgi right now. New Disney 3d animated features look very similar to everyone else's 3d animated features, and also to video games and live action movies with a lot of cgi.

I've never felt this was quite a valid complaint... To me, this stuff is gorgeous.

I would kill for a video game to look like this.

And the Disney "look" of the 90s (and long before) was pretty inescapable too. They've always been fairly consistent.

And at times outright shameless about it.

It's not that Disney looks like everyone else... it's that everyone else ultimately ends up looking like Disney.

Looking at all the 3D films on the market, and I can see - even visually - big differences. They'll always have similarities (just as all 2D cartoons did as well), but I really think Disney has a "look" to their films that's still impressive, at times lush and gorgeous, and even chiefly their own. The medium has shifted, but their storytelling and artistry remain rock-solid.

It's okay to have a preference (I prefer 2D myself), but rewatching something like Tangled from an artistic perspective and, good grief, that film is utterly jaw-dropping and gorgeous across the board.

 

[Ratrat]

I take offense to that simply because of the assumption that other animated studios being "low brow" (which is ironic when you consider Pixar and hell, even some of Ghibli's stuff)

I didn't say low brow. But as a whole, do you think Dreamworks' or current Disneys output will be looked as back as fondly as Pixar?

 

[Raxus]

I didn't say low brow. But as a whole, do you think Dreamworks' or current Disneys output will be looked as back as fondly as Pixar?

Disney's current output?

Yes.

Truth be told I think people go through most movies with nostalgia goggles on too to look past their serious flaws like Little Mermaid.

 

[Garlador]

I didn't say low brow. But as a whole, do you think Dreamworks' or current Disneys output will be looked as back as fondly as Pixar?

Ask me that ten years ago, and the answer would be no.

Ask me that now and... quite possibly.

Dreamworks has a string of really good movies (not all financially successful), and I think films like How to Train Your Dragon, Kung Fu Panda, Rise of the Guardians, Meet the Croods, and even Megamind show signs of an animation house really coming into their own and doing big, bold, and at times riveting things, often against all odds and preconceived expectations (I'm still eating crow on Kung Fu Panda).

Disney, as mentioned, has been in top-form for about 6 years now and their films are by and large rock solid at worst and culturally significant at best. There's no question they are currently in a second Renaissance, with the money and accolades they're reaping as testament to that.

Pixar, admittedly, has stumbled a bit, largely by focusing on sequels and prequels. We get some good ones like Finding Dory and Toy Story 3 and we get stuff like Cars 2 and Monsters University. A really original idea like Inside Out can stand along Pixar's best, but it's no longer outright expected of them at this point in time, and looking at what's on the horizon (lots and lots of sequels), I can't help but feel that, even if they're good, the originality and special touch Pixar once had has become more workman-like and business driven. Heads over hearts, if we're being sentimental. I'll never count them down, though.

I just don't think Pixar is the top animation studio anymore. I think Dreamworks was giving them a huge run for their money these last several years and Disney Animation proper has just been on a hot streak.

I can readily see the best of current Disney and Dreamworks leaving a bigger impression than current Pixar in the years to come.

 

[Ratrat]

Those are mostly good films. They do resonate with kids (and adults). They're a different flavor than Disney films, but they're good in their own unique ways and resonate with kids in a different way too. Kids are not monolithic and are allowed to like two things that aren't similar.

Tangled already did stick out in a sea of other animated films and was highly successful. More importantly, it's still successful and making a splash. Seven years after its debut, it's still selling Rapunzel dolls at a solid pace and it's got an on-going animated show debuting in 2017 with the original cast.


So is Big Hero 6, for that matter. It's also getting an on-going TV show on Disney in 2017.


Just because something is popular for a moment doesn't mean it'll remain popular. Shrek 2 was once the most successful animated film ever, and the Shrek franchise has cooled considerably since then, and a lot of its self-referential humor hasn't held up well. Disney doesn't play the short-game; they play the long-game.

Folks even tend to forget that Frozen didn't debut at #1. It wasn't breaking records upon its debut. It was like The Little Mermaid, rarely climbing the charts but just holding steady and strong for weeks and weeks and months and months. Big, record-breaking blockbusters debuted at #1... and then dropped off charts, and there Frozen was, hanging on at #3 and #4 for months on end. It was STILL in the top 10 by the time the Blu-Ray hit stores.

That's the testament to a Disney film... not its box office records, but its longevity. It's hard to say what the legacy of the new Renaissance will be years from now, since we're still living it and it's still fairly recent, but already it's shaping up to be something timeless in the same way Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, and The Little Mermaid were to a generation of kids.

The wife and I walked through the Walmart toy aisle yesterday shopping for my cousins, and it's packed full of Frozen dolls, Big Hero 6 action figures, and Zootopia merchandise. There's Rapunzel dolls right alongside Mulan and Belle dolls.

It's not even remotely my favorite Disney film, but Tangled I'm fairly confident in saying has cemented its place as a Disney classic. Frozen, on the other hand, is still a merchandising machine that still eclipses the entire Disney Princess line all on its own. It's readily apparent its success wasn't a short fad or a brief box office window.

I'm curious to see if Zootopia and Moana will have similar legs.

Time will tell, I guess. Im personally baffled at Minions popularity and insane amount of merchandise.
As for Disney, there are so many animated films of similar quality, artstyle, story-telling conventions these days that to me, they kind of blur together.

 

[Raxus]

Time will tell, I guess. Im personally baffled at Minions popularity and insane amount of merchandise.
There are so many animated films of similar quality, artstyle, story-telling conventions these days that to me, they kind of blur together.

We must be watching different movies.

Minions and Secret Life of Pets and soon Sing are marketed so god damn heavily they can't help but nag parents to take their kids to see the movies. It is Illuminations MO at this point. I am pretty sure I have literally seen a billion Sing trailers already.

Disney has really stretched the limits of their artstyle in each of their movies. Moana is a vast improvement over Pixar's output (visually) and that is saying something.

Dreamworks can vary wildly as well but they are about as sequel heavy as Pixar at this point.

 

[Ratrat]

HTTYD and Rango were easily the best looking cg films at the time. The bar is raised every year...

I just wish they would do it with interesting artstyles or completely new kinds of story conventions for a change.

 

[Garlador]

Disney has really stretched the limits of their artstyle in each of their movies. Moana is a vast improvement over Pixar's output (visually) and that is saying something.

I think a lot of what Disney does behind the scenes isn't as appreciated. The technology to handle Rapunzel's hair in Tangled is mind-blowing when you see what they built from scratch to accommodate it in 3D. Watching how they developed the most sophisticated artificial snow system for Frozen is crazy too (how it clumps, thaws, sticks, falls, etc.). Moana's use of water physics is an industry high.

Disney film's have a lot of nuance to them that's not always appreciated unless it's in motion, and often it's so effective that it's just taken for granted.

HTTYD and Rango were easily the best looking cg films at the time. The bar is raised every year...

I just wish they would do it with interesting artstyles or completely new kinds of story conventions for a change.

You'll have to tell me what's "conventional" for Disney lately. Moana's making waves (no pun intended) for dropping the bread-and-butter love interest altogether for the first time in their entire princess line history (Snow White's very first words were "someday my prince will come..."). Zootopia is a straight up allegory for race relations. Wreck-It Ralph faces questions of identity and purpose in a very clever way. Big Hero 6 is Disney Animation's first straight up superhero story. Tangled tackled themes of child abuse and psychological parent manipulation to a scary degree. Frozen explored a ton of relationship issues - between "true loves", parents, sisters, etc. - and did plenty of subversions of their own well-worn tropes.

I'm curious what kind of conventions you're looking for, because I see them as more un-traditional then ever, while I could levy many of those same criticisms at what Pixar, Dreamworks, and the others have done.

 

[ronaldthump]

Wow, it's hard to believe Pocahontas did that poorly in reviews. Even Disney can't slap some recolor that shitty aspect of American history.

Really liked pochahontas - some great tracks in it and the art style was amazing. One of my favourite of the period.

 

[Aurongel]

The 90's Renaissance never had anything that approached any modern or topical ideas at all. Zootopia for example would have never been made even 10 years ago, I'm frankly shocked it was as popular as it was in 2016 given the political strife this year has brought.

 

[Sean C]

The Second Renaissance films are way more complex on a story and character level than the 90s Renaissance films. That's undeniable, I think.

I don't think the music has ever been quite as good. It's not bad, by any means. The songs are pretty much all at least serviceable, and there's at least one great song per movie; but when Menken was on his hot streak in the first Renaissance, basically every musical sequence was iconic. That's hard to measure up to.

 

[Garlador]

The Second Renaissance films are way more complex on a story and character level than the 90s Renaissance films. That's undeniable, I think.

I don't think the music has ever been quite as good. It's not bad, by any means. The songs are pretty much all at least serviceable, and there's at least one great song per movie; but when Menken was on his hot streak in the first Renaissance, basically every musical sequence was iconic. That's hard to measure up to.

I think that, too, Disney just hasn't MADE many musicals this Renaissance. Starting with Tangled, there's some good songs, but Frozen was a musical powerhouse (even the "sing-along" dvd sold gangbusters), and Moana is really the first musical since then and it's got a dynamite soundtrack too.

Funny enough, Menken's work on Tangled I might feel is the weakest of the new era thus far, but let's also not forget that we tend to remember the classic songs... and forget the less memorable ones over time. I never really see anyone break out into a stirring rendition of "Les Poissons", "Topsy Turvy" , "A Guy Like You", or "Savages", while songs like "Human Again" and "The Morning Report" were cut from the films initially for being subpar.

Granted, there's no questioning the legacy of those initial films musically. They were powerhouses of the highest order.

And I still like Tarzan, even if it's mostly bland Phil Collins songs.

 

[Ratrat]

You'll have to tell me what's "conventional" for Disney lately. Moana's making waves (no pun intended) for dropping the bread-and-butter love interest altogether for the first time in their entire princess line history (Snow White's very first words were "someday my prince will come..."). Zootopia is a straight up allegory for race relations. Wreck-It Ralph faces questions of identity and purpose in a very clever way. Big Hero 6 is Disney Animation's first straight up superhero story. Tangled tackled themes of child abuse and psychological parent manipulation to a scary degree. Frozen explored a ton of relationship issues - between "true loves", parents, sisters, etc. - and did plenty of subversions of their own well-worn tropes.

I'm curious what kind of conventions you're looking for, because I see them as more un-traditional then ever, while I could levy many of those same criticisms at what Pixar, Dreamworks, and the others have done.

Most of the Moana reviews say it does nothing new. If lacking a love interest is its claim to originality, that is just sad. I agree with Zootopia, even though its clumsy, but BH6 was just jumping on the Marvel bandwagon and Ralph was another candy colored parody with pop culture references. The rest, eh. Same, familiar aesthetic and overall safe.

 

[Sean C]

Funny enough, Menken's work on Tangled I might feel is the weakest of the new era thus far, but let's also not forget that we tend to remember the classic songs... and forget the less memorable ones over time. I never really see anyone break out into a stirring rendition of "Les Poissons", "Topsy Turvy" , "A Guy Like You", or "Savages", while songs like "Human Again" and "The Morning Report" were cut from the films initially for being subpar.

Regarding Menken, I was mainly speaking of the first three films he did (up to Aladdin). The later soundtracks weren't as consistent, definitely, though he was experimenting in interesting ways (e.g., the gospel soundtrack of Hercules).

 

[kinoki]

I think Disney has been on a pretty good run of late. Competent movies with a good understanding of their audience. Hardly groundbreaking or masterpieces of cinema but wholehearted fun for everyone.

They however don't even come close to the trio Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin and Lion King. Or even the masterpieces that is Jungle Book, Robin Hood, Aristocats and Winnie the Pooh.

 

[Garlador]

Most of the Moana reviews say it does nothing new. If lacking a love interest is its claim to originality, that is just sad. I agree with Zootopia, even though its clumsy, but BH6 was just jumping on the Marvel bandwagon and Ralph was another candy colored parody with pop culture references. The rest, eh. Same, familiar aesthetic and overall safe.

Citations might be needed.

Here's what I read the critics saying:

"a fresh depth to Disney's time-tested formula"
"There's not a prince or potential husband in sight; Moana's future is entirely defined by her leadership and ability to fend off the mansplaining know-it-all Maui. As messages go, we'll take it."
"A great deal of imagination has clearly been pumped into the movie..."
"A neglected culture gets its overdue closeup."
"It's a thrilling adventure that surges with sensational songs, lovable heroes, and messages that promote responsibility, forgiveness, bravery and resilience."
"The film achieves what the best Disney animated features do: a sense of place that is refined and specific."
[Moana] is beautiful in more ways than I can tell..."
"Effectively puts a Disney spin on Southern Pacific culture"
"Moana recovers the spirit of Disney's unforgettable classic films"
""Moana" might be [Walt Disney Animation Studio's] best since 1994's "The Lion King.""
"Perhaps the freshest pleasure lies in the spectacle of a Disney heroine who, for once, isn't beholden to any outside forces in pursuing her dreams."
"Disney adds another best-of-2016 with Moana, the latest 'princess' film that addresses issues of identity and environment with grace, intelligence, and enthusiasm."
"There are no princes hanging around, no boys to really think about, no girly hang-ups or thingamabobs to fritter over, and no romantic subplots to distract from what's truly important: survival, independence, identity, self-belief."
"A progressive and rousing tale that becomes the crown jewel of the latest renaissance from the company."

Etc. Etc. Etc.... etc. (it really just keeps going)

Even the ones that say the film isn't anything "new" still fall back on "It's OK to use familiar tropes as long as you use them well." The lack of a love interest is NOT the only thing it does differently, but it's actually a very big thing for a Disney film to omit, allowing the focus to shift elsewhere now.

I think you're underselling these new films and overselling the old ones. There are scenes in all of the recent Disney films that I think eclipse even some of the better works the original Renaissance gave us.

 

[DoctorFling]

I found the failures from the last renaissance more interesting than the successes of the new one. With the exception of Princess and the Frog I've found their recent output extremely forgettable.

 

[RK128]

I think that the original Disney Animation Renaissance pulled off more risky projects. Stuff like Hunchback would NEVER be made today for example and that is one of my favorite Disney films.

But honestly, the newest Disney films are great and I would rank them next to stuff like Beauty and the Beast, Lion King, and Aladdin. They offer enjoyable stories and do a lot of really interesting subjects. Disney going back to an entire animal cast with Zootopia, making a literally animated comic book movie and making a film centered around video games? Those are really fun ideas and glad they did that.

I love Frozen and Tangled, as both offer great visuals, music and stories. Frozen's musical score allows it to be a legit musical (something the original Disney Renaissance Era is hallmarked for).

I will say though my least favorite of the original Renaissance would be Pocahontas. It is a breathtaking film visually and musically, but other then that, the film is quite weak with it's core story. While I wouldn't rank them next to Lion King or Aladdin, I really enjoyed Tarzan a lot (looked fantastic and I loved the characters). It's musical score is weak but everything else about the movie I loved a lot.

In basic list form, here is my top 4 for each era of Disney.

Classic:
1. Lion King
2. Hunchback
3. Aladdin
4. Beauty & the Beast

Modern:
1. Frozen
2. Wreck it Ralph
3. Zootopia
4. Tangled

 

[Garlador]

I think that the original Disney Animation Renaissance pulled off more risky projects. Stuff like Hunchback would NEVER be made today for example and that is one of my favorite Disney films.

I do think Zootopia is sort of equivalent in just how big of a spotlight it uses on race relationships and racial profiling and all the ugliness that's buried deep within modern society. I'm still surprised it got made.

Also, in hindsight, given the climate, I'm not sure Aladdin would be made today either.

"Praise Allah!"

 

[Nepenthe]

Music-wise, it's no contest- the 90s win, not just because more songs are more memorable, but because they were placed more appropriately as narrative interludes and also as artistic set pieces where the animation direction and/or art direction could shine and be associated with the song. Tangled has 90s-reminiscent pacing in terms of song count, placement, and reason but doesn't manage to score any outright bangers (although I love the Mother Knows Best reprise to bits due to Gothel's acting). Frozen's song count, pacing, and their narrative significance is fucking atrocious. And in general, outside of "Now That I See You" and "Let It Go," neither film's animated sequences to these songs are actually memorable or have a truly strong emotional impact. Kids today do not have their own Circle of Life or ballroom dance room yet, nor even something shocking like a Hellfire.

However, there's also the incidental music to consider too of which all films can compete equally, and I feel like this era's been a completely wasted opportunity in that regard. The orchestral leitmotifs of the 90s films are legendary, especially The Lion King's, and they were more likely to embrace the cultural roots of where the films take places, whereas nowadays film in general is scored with bland, interchangeable soundtracks. Like, where are the Nordic instruments and chorals in Frozen (outside of Vuelie)? Where is the opening piece to rival Beauty and the Beast's simple yet haunting piano medley? Do you even remember any background music from Big Hero 6, Wreck-It Ralph, or Zootopia?

Narrative wise, it's a relative toss-up, although I'm partial to more of the 90s films than I am the current ones. They're simpler stories, yes, but that allows them not to be bogged down in the character and narrative twists that have basically served to dampen these current films and add one more layer of cliche', outside of Zootopia of course, which was specifically meant to be a detective story in the first place (I have my biggest problem with Frozen, whose twist with Hans is trite and underdeveloped due to the existence of the Duke while simultaneously undermining how awesome it would've been to have the "true love doesn't exist" thematic be applied in a gender-neutral manner). Because the 90s films are simpler, there's more room to develop the emotional core of the films and execute them wonderfully. There's a sense of quaint genuineness and sweetness out of these movies that I don't get from Disney anymore, aside from something like Winnie The Pooh recently but lol no one saw that.

Ultimately I don't think they're largely unenjoyable. They've been really solid movies, and I agree that their more progressive and topical focus is a refreshing defining feature on what could've been just an era that did nothing more than ape the 90s classics but in a different pop culture environment. Specifically, I still really love Zootopia for its dealings with intersectionality and bias, and Tangled for its childish sarcastic humor and that fucking horse. But I don't think it's just nostalgia talking that the 90s films are still able to compete with what modern technology and storytelling has offered the Disney across generations.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I didn't say low brow. But as a whole, do you think Dreamworks' or current Disneys output will be looked as back as fondly as Pixar?

Even back then you got notable stinkers like A Bug's Life, and even now Pixar's been trudging compared to Disney's output (Zootopia for instance, is much, much better than A Boring Dinosaur in many ways). And even DW can attest to works like their 2D animated films and stuff like the KFP series and How to Train Your Dragon.

Really their only enemy is the lack of branding power, which sadly many things they don't have.

The Second Renaissance films are way more complex on a story and character level than the 90s Renaissance films. That's undeniable, I think.

I don't think the music has ever been quite as good. It's not bad, by any means. The songs are pretty much all at least serviceable, and there's at least one great song per movie; but when Menken was on his hot streak in the first Renaissance, basically every musical sequence was iconic. That's hard to measure up to.

Ehh depends really.

Like Wreck It Ralph or Big Hero 6 are very straightforward whereas you got The Lion King and even Hunchback (despite its forced Disney formula of having sidekicks). Even Mulan had that "we'll not change our traditions, we're just making you an exception" theme going on.

 

[Garlador]

Music-wise, it's no contest- the 90s win, not just because more songs are more memorable, but because they were placed more appropriately as narrative interludes and also as artistic set pieces where the animation direction and/or art direction could shine and be associated with the song. Tangled has 90s-reminiscent pacing in terms of song count, placement, and reason but doesn't manage to score any outright bangers (although I love the Mother Knows Best reprise to bits due to Gothel's acting). Frozen's song count, pacing, and their narrative significance is fucking atrocious. And in general, outside of "Now That I See You" and "Let It Go," neither film's animated sequences to these songs are actually memorable or have a truly strong emotional impact. Kids today do not have their own Circle of Life or ballroom dance room yet, nor even something shocking like a Hellfire.

For the most part, I agree, but I also think we tend to forget the stinkers and songs that nobody remembers, of which there are a metric load of generic, bland Disney songs between the "Whole New World"s and "Circle of Life"s. There's also the fact that the Renaissance was defined by the musicals, and every film - sans Rescuers Down Under - was a musical, while this Renaissance doesn't do the musical nearly as often. The lack of a catchy tune does nothing to undermine how good Zootopia is, for instance.

However, there's also the incidental music to consider too of which all films can compete equally, and I feel like this era's been a completely wasted opportunity in that regard. The orchestral leitmotifs of the 90s films are legendary, especially The Lion King's, and they were more likely to embrace the cultural roots of where the films take places, whereas nowadays film in general is scored with bland, interchangeable soundtracks. Like, where are the Nordic instruments and chorals in Frozen (outside of Vuelie)? Where is the opening piece to rival Beauty and the Beast's simple yet haunting piano medley? Do you even remember any background music from Big Hero 6, Wreck-It Ralph, or Zootopia?

Inversely, again, I think we tend to remember the music from the films we really like. I cannot remember any incidental music for Hunchback, or Pocahontas, or Hercules. I do remember the incidental music of Frozen throughout (and they used Nordic music and sounds for more than just Vuelie, such as "Sorcery" and "Heimr Àrnadalr" and "Whiteout").

Ultimately I don't think they're largely unenjoyable. They've been really solid movies, and I agree that their more progressive and topical focus is a refreshing defining feature on what could've been just an era that did nothing more than ape the 90s classics but in a different pop culture environment. Specifically, I still really love Zootopia for its dealings with intersectionality and bias, and Tangled for its childish sarcastic humor and that fucking horse. But I don't think it's just nostalgia talking that the 90s films are still able to compete with what modern technology and storytelling has offered the Disney across generations.

I think we're not going to be the ones to ultimately decide. Rather the kids who grew up watching these will determine if they're the same level of classics.

For perspective, it's been 27 years since The Little Mermaid. That's the start of that Renaissance and of "our" classics. 27 years before that, the films were 101 Dalmatians and the Sword in the Stone and those were the "classics".

 

[Nepenthe]

I don't think the films not being musicals hamper them, nor do I think the 90s film music is flawless. Rather, if we're going to compare Tangled and Frozen to the 90s films, I feel they are weaker than even the worst that Disney had to offer on multiple fronts. I don't feel they are as lyrically or musically inspired, nor do I feel like the best songs on each soundtrack reach the narrative or dramatic heights as the best songs from that era. And I'm someone who didn't know Tangled was a musical at all and thus had no preconceptions until I saw it, as well as had hype for Frozen because of the "it's the next Beauty and the Beast" and "best Disney film since The Lion King" marketing that had been going around.

And of course kids today are going to be automatically more prone to liking the newest films they watch now versus older material they'll be subjected to by their parents. However, I think historical consensus rules the day, and I'm not hedging my bets that history is going to treat Frozen as kindly as it will The Lion King in terms of which film is actually better overall.

 

[Garlador]

I don't think the films not being musicals hamper them, nor do I think the 90s film music is flawless. Rather, if we're going to compare Tangled and Frozen to the 90s films, I feel they are weaker than even the worst that Disney had to offer on multiple fronts. I don't feel they are as lyrically or musically inspired, nor do I feel like the best songs on each soundtrack reach the narrative or dramatic heights as the best songs from that era. And I'm someone who didn't know Tangled was a musical at all and thus had no preconceptions until I saw it, as well as had hype for Frozen because of the "it's the next Beauty and the Beast" and "best Disney film since The Lion King" marketing that had been going around.

And of course kids today are going to be automatically more prone to liking the newest films they watch now versus older material they'll be subjected to by their parents. However, I think historical consensus rules the day, and I'm not hedging my bets that history is going to treat Frozen as kindly as it will The Lion King in terms of which film is actually better overall.

Perhaps not The Lion King (but, really, it's The Lion King), but I'd take that wager that Frozen can stand proudly alongside Mulan, The Little Mermaid, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast and, well, any film but The Lion King. I'm very confident that'll be the case, in fact.

And by no stretch of the imagination do I think Tangled or Frozen will be seen as "weaker" than the weakest Renaissance films - like Pocahontas or Hercules or Rescuers Down Under. It's all but confirmed they'll be remembered more fondly than those films will be. Three years divorced from the hype and I see kids in my family still adoring the film as strongly as they did three years ago. They'll like the new things, of course, but they aren't letting go of this one (no pun intended) anytime soon.

And, again, I think you have to sort of discredit the second half of the Renaissance. By that point, a majority of the songs coming out where admittedly pretty forgettable, bland, and lyrically stunted. And the Renaissance ends with a Tarzan film backed by Phil Collins of all people throughout. I'd take anything in Tangled, Frozen, or Moana over some of the latter Renaissance films on a musical level, even if I think "Hellfire" is the best Disney song of all time (screw "Circle of Life". More songs about lust and damnation!).

 

[Nepenthe]

If I were to compare Frozen to a film, it'd be Pocahontas. They're both frustrating to me, but for entirely different reasons. Tangled, I will give you credit for because I like it so much, and I would like it to a Mulan, Hercules, or even an Emperor's New Groove, a fun watch that people don't talk about so much regardless. Seriously, I don't see a lot of love for this one anymore, especially since people think Frozen's the better musical (hngh). Beauty and the Beast and Aladdin though? I feel like those comparisons are pushing it. xD

 

[Garlador]

If I were to compare Frozen to a film, it'd be Pocahontas. They're both frustrating to me, but for entirely different reasons. Tangled, I will give you credit for because I like it so much, and I would like it to a Mulan, Hercules, or even an Emperor's New Groove, a fun watch that people don't talk about so much regardless. Seriously, I don't see a lot of love for this one anymore, especially since people think Frozen's the better musical (hngh). Beauty and the Beast and Aladdin though? I feel like those comparisons are pushing it. xD

I adore those films, but rewatching Aladdin in particular and, apart from Robin Williams utterly stealing the show, the film is... quite a bit less amazing than I remember. Don't get me wrong, I adore it and the music and visuals are out of this world, but the story execution is pretty frustrating, it's bogged down by inconsistencies, a framing device that gets dropped after the opening, and the major characters themselves are pretty frustrating, especially since so much of the plot hinges on Aladdin's lies and deceptions and general stubbornness (or as a joke post told Jasmine, "he's only lying to you because he thinks you're shallow and self-centered.") It's still great, mind you, but it doesn't hold up nearly as strongly as I remembered, and while some of the CG in it is seamless, some of it is straight up Atari Jaguar levels. It's still quality Disney, but the rougher edges are more apparent to me divorced from my nostalgia.

I don't really have any criticisms of Beauty and the Beast. It's my favorite of the original Renaissance, and I think it's actually better than The Lion King by a hair.

But Tangled's still getting plenty of love. As I said, a TV series of it is coming next year, and, while anecdotal, I see PLENTY of Rapunzel representation on the toy aisles as my wife and I went Christmas shopping for our nieces (but, of course, Frozen has its own section). Tangled still has a media and marketing presence at this very moment still going steady.

 

[Sean C]

Ehh depends really.

Like Wreck It Ralph or Big Hero 6 are very straightforward whereas you got The Lion King and even Hunchback (despite its forced Disney formula of having sidekicks). Even Mulan had that "we'll not change our traditions, we're just making you an exception" theme going on.

On a character level, I'd say both of those movies are more sophisticated than earlier films. Hiro's mourning for his brother is given a lot more space and variation than Simba and Mufasa, for instance (I love Lion King way more than Big Hero 6, for the record; I think the latter is the weakest of the new wave of Disney films, particularly its rather bland conclusion). Wreck-It Ralph, which I thought was the best of the new films until Zootopia came along, gives its hero a rather unconventional personal acceptance arc.

Hunchback is a really fascinating oddity, still. It's darker than anything Pixar has ever done, and I think its flaws show why it's hard to do that sort of story within the framework of a family-friendly film.

 

[rashbeep]

Absolutely not

Nothing touches Lion King, Beauty and the Beast, and Aladdin. The first two are moving works of art and the best films Disney has ever made. Mulan and Little Mermaid are also strong.

.

 

[HK-47]

Well it depends really. Both have ups and downs.

Also some movies get certain interpretations wrong. Like for instance I'm not a big fan of The Little Mermaid but people seem to think Triton was "in the right" when the worst thing her daughter would do was collecting artifacts, what he did was borderline abuse.

The Little Mermaid is a fucked up movie and one of my least favorite from that era.

 

[aadiboy]

Eh... no one cares about Bolt or Meet the Robinsons, the new renaissance actually started with The Princess and the Frog. I think the 90s renaissance was better, though the current slate is still pretty good. Also damn, Disney's not releasing another animated movie until Wreck it Ralph in 2018? Is it going to be a trend that they skip every other year and do two movies when they come back?

 

[Sean C]

Also damn, Disney's not releasing another animated movie until Wreck it Ralph in 2018? Is it going to be a trend that they skip every other year and do two movies when they come back?

2017 looks pretty damn weak for animation overall. Pixar's Coco looks like it has a clean shot at the Oscar.

 

[Anth0ny]

imo only Frozen hits that god tier level of the 90s films, and that's thanks to its god tier soundtrack.

the other films, while good/great, are lacking in the soundtrack department.

 

[Finaj]

While I still like the 90s more, it had more blunders (Pocahontas, Hercules). When it comes to Disney's 3D outing, the only bad film was their first one (Chicken Little).

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Masterpieces (10/10)
Pinochhio
Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
Bambi
Fantasia
Beauty and the Beast

Excellent (9/10)
The Lion King
The Little Mermaid
Dumbo
Sleeping Beauty
The Three Cabelleros
The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh

Very Good (8/10)
The Emperor's New Groove
Aladdin
Alice in Wonderland
Tangled
Lilo & Stitch
Hercules
Lady and the Tramp
One Hundred and One Dalmatians
Tarzan
The Princess and the Frog

Good (7/10)
Frozen
Hunchback of Notre Dame
Mulan
The Rescuers
The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad
Bolt
The Sword in the STone
Peter Pan
The Great Mouse Detective
The mothafuckin' Black Cauldron
Zootopia
Wreck-It-Ralph

Not without merits (6/10)
The Jungle Book
Big Hero 6/10
The Aristocats
Pochontas
Home on the Range

Not Good (5/10)
Robin Hood
Brother Bear
Saludos Amigos
The Fox and the Hound
Fun and Fancy Free
Meet the Robinsons
Oliver and Company
Treasure Planet

Actively Terrible (4/10)
Atlantis: The Lost Empire
Dinosaur

The worst Disney Animated Film not straight to DVD
Chicken Little

tl;dr: 1940s Disney >> 90s Disney >> current Disney >> 70s/80s Disney until the Little Mermaid

 

[silva1991]

The Lion King is their best achievement and that's not gonna change I suppose.

Same thing goes to other movies from that era.

Current era is boring and I still love cartoons.

CGI ruined Disney forever for me.

CG can't wow me like this:

It's funny, but sad at the same time.

the quality is just not the same.

 

[jett]

I don't understand the love for Tarzan, I thought it was pretty boring. Maybe I just don't fucking like Tarzan in general.

OTOH I've always enjoyed Disney's Robin Hood, even if it's a shameless ripoff of the 1938 movie.

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

The Lion King is their best achievement and that's not gonna change I suppose.

Same thing goes to other movies from that era.

Current era is boring and I still love cartoons.

CGI ruined Disney forever for me.

CG can't wow me like this:

It's funny, but sad at the same time.

the quality is just not the same.

No offence, but I can't take anyone seriously who isn't wowed by the animation in Moana. CGI can look incredible and has advantages.