I would like to see more moe characters in anme who are strong and "mature".

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cajunator said:
Seek help?
Would you tell an lgbt person to seek help? Its literally the same sort of thing. People are different. We are all wired differently. Its not wrong its just how people are. This kind of thinking is far more damaging than some lolicon manga.
Society cant continue to just expect everyone to be homogenous even if it makes them uncomfortable.
i think holybaikal actually creates these threads with that in mind. She means well.
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I don't think equating the situation of the lbgt community to the situation of pedophiles is a great idea. Especially when we're in an era where things like gay marriage are becoming more and more accepted while pedophilia is not. Not agreeing that child porn of any kind should exist does not mean:Everything should be homogenous.

cosmicblizzard said:
Not disagreeing on that. As much as I support its right to exist, I don't know how I'd feel about it becoming normalized.

That being said, I can't imagine that happening any time soon. It's looked down on in Japan and even if it has found it's way into a lot of anime, that isn't a mainstream medium over there. Manga is still the leader in that regard and there's still a ton of stuff absolutely devoid of any kind of child sexualization. Of course that could be said for anime as well, but the ratio is better with manga.
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This is good. And yes there is still plenty of stuff devoid of child sexualization thankfully.
 
I think if you're enjoying media that keeps pedophiles' desires in check and off the streets, as you yourself say, you might want to reexamine what you're watching...

But I'm also relieved for once that the moe fans are being honest that there's a strong element of sexualization common to the style, and not dancing around it for once. My biggest problem with it was how coy fans of it are sometimes and act confused when people bring up how creepy it can be for outsiders.
 
Crossing Eden said:
I don't think equating the situation of the lbgt community to the situation of pedophiles. Especially when we're in an era where things like gay marriage are becoming more and more accepted.


This is good. And yes there is still plenty of stuff devoid of child sexualization thankfully.
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My point is that people cannot help what they are or what sexually interests them. It doesnt make them sick.
 
God Dayumm said:
We need less moe. It is not aesthetically pleasing design
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My main problem with Shirobako is the main character, the five girls, have severe sameface syndrome. Seeing how the guys looks different to each other, as much as some girl side characters makes think that their samefacey nature must be a deliberate decision. Not really big deal since their character is really great, well motivated with a pinch of reality but it still a bummer :/

So yeah, moe aesthetic at least need to be toned down.
 
Watch Da Birdie said:
I think if you're enjoying media that keeps pedophiles' desires in check and off the streets, as you yourself say, you might want to reexamine what you're watching...
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Depends on what we're talking about. Stuff like No Game No Life unfortunately has a bit of that stuff in it, but there are people intolerant of that that can enjoy the show because otherwise, it's damn good. Yes, those same people will call it unnecessary and off-putting, but they'll still watch something well-made like that.
 
cajunator said:
Seek help?
Would you tell an lgbt person to seek help? Its literally the same sort of thing. People are different. We are all wired differently. Its not wrong its just how people are. This kind of thinking is far more damaging than some lolicon manga.
Society cant continue to just expect everyone to be homogenous even if it makes them uncomfortable.
i think holybaikal actually creates these threads with that in mind. She means well.
Click to expand...

Alright I'm going to bed, just one more thought. Please don't EVER compare gays and transgender people to pedophiles. There is consensual gay sex, and surgeries for transgender that hurts nobody. There is no way to do anything more than masturbate if you're a pedophile without becoming a criminal, and for good reason. You act on your urges as a pedophile, congratulations, you've messed up a kid for the rest of his/her life.

Yes, these people do need help. They need all the support they can get to keep from slipping off the horrible path which leads to having sex with real children. That includes therapists, support groups that are well known, etc. We first need to de-stigmatize bringing up pedophilia with a psychologist, and de-stigmatize good support groups such as virtuous pedophile, before we talk about the effect drawn child porn has on society.

It's still gross, and it may not be possible to make it illegal, but we should still stigmatize the crap out of it, and all sexual depictions of children in many loli and moe shows (without good reason), just as we stigmatize rape and child murder in fiction (without good reason).

Good night, ya'll it's been nice talking to you, this certainly has been a discussion. :-)
 
Watch Da Birdie said:
I think if you're enjoying media that keeps pedophiles' desires in check and off the streets, as you yourself say, you might want to reexamine what you're watching...

But I'm also relieved for once that the moe fans are being honest that there's a strong element of sexualization common to the style, and not dancing around it for once. My biggest problem with it was how coy fans of it are sometimes and act confused when people bring up how creepy it can be for outsiders.
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I dont deny that aspect of it exists but Im not a fan of it. However the problem I have is that the very sorts of shows Im interested in for cute reasons may not have been intended to be viewed so purely.
In any case I like the big eyed cute look of characters. Loved it from the 80s and 90s and always will enjoy the aesthetic. Its just fun and it keeps my spirits high.
I certainly wish I could just enjoy it without having to explain it all the time.
 
cajunator said:
My point is that people cannot help what they are or what sexually interests them. It doesnt make them sick.
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Them acting on their urges certainly does. Even if it boils down to masturbating to that material instead of actively seeking out real life children. Sure they cannot help it, but that's very different than what LBGT people have to go through.

Xe4 said:
Alright I'm going to bed, just one more thought. Please don't EVER compare gays and transgender people to pedophiles. There is consensual gay sex, and surgeries for transgender that hurts nobody. There is no way to do anything more than masturbate if you're a pedophile without becoming a criminal, and for good reason. You act on your urges as a pedophile, congratulations, you've messed up a kid for the rest of his/her life.

Yes, these people do need help. They need all the support they can get to keep from slipping off the horrible path which leads to having sex with real children. That includes therapists, support groups that are well known, etc. We first need to de-stigmatize bringing up pedophilia with a psychologist, and de-stigmatize good support groups such as virtuous pedophile, before we talk about the effect drawn child porn has on society.

It's still gross, and it may not be possible to make it illegal, but we should still stigmatize the crap out of it, and all sexual depictions of children in many loli and moe shows (without good reason), just as we stigmatize rape and child murder in fiction (without good reason).

Good night, ya'll it's been nice talking to you, this certainly has been a discussion. :-)
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This was the point I was trying to make.
 
Jake. said:
...i knew i shouldn't have opened this thread.
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Why not?
image.php
 
Xe4 said:
Alright I'm going to bed, just one more thought. Please don't EVER compare gays and transgender people to pedophiles. There is consensual gay sex, and surgeries for transgender that hurts nobody. There is no way to do anything more than masturbate if you're a pedophile without becoming a criminal, and for good reason. You act on your urges as a pedophile, congratulations, you've messed up a kid for the rest of his/her life.

Yes, these people do need help. They need all the support they can get to keep from slipping off the horrible path which leads to having sex with real children. That includes therapists, support groups that are well known, etc. We first need to de-stigmatize bringing up pedophilia with a psychologist, and de-stigmatize good support groups such as virtuous pedophile, before we talk about the effect drawn child porn has on society.

It's still gross, and it may not be possible to make it illegal, but we should still stigmatize the crap out of it, and all sexual depictions of children in many loli and moe shows (without good reason), just as we stigmatize rape and child murder in fiction (without good reason).

Good night, ya'll it's been nice talking to you, this certainly has been a discussion. :-)
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The only way, and I do mean only, that Im trying to make a point here is that people are born liking what they like. Its inherent. In their fabric. Acting out on some fantasies is definitely illegal but calling a person sick before they have done anything wrong is just not right.
thats all Im saying here.
 
Anyway Im not trying to offend or disrupt anything I just want to make it clear that its not so black and white. Humanity is a very complex thing and its oftentimes difficult to talk about.
Furthermore I love all of you and I respect your opinions and Im glad this hasnt devolved into strawman arguments or anything.
however it has borne out its time so I will leave it at that and let yall get back to moe discussion.
 
cajunator said:
Anyway Im not trying to offend or disrupt anything I just want to make it clear that its not so black and white. Humanity is a very complex thing and its oftentimes difficult to talk about.
Furthermore I love all of you and I respect your opinions and Im glad this hasnt devolved into strawman arguments or anything.
however it has borne out its time so I will leave it at that and let yall get back to moe discussion.
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You tried to lump in LBGT to support your argument. Even tho, they're not even comparable even at its most simpliest level. How else is someone suppose to look at it?
 
DJ Crimson said:
You tried to lump in LBGT to support your argument. Even tho, they're not even comparable even at its most simpliest level. How else is someone suppose to look at it?
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Technically "at it's simplest level", they are comparable.

"A group of people who are often judged and stigmatized based on a mental state that they can not control."

That statement applies to both pedophiles and homosexuals, doesn't it? If the similarities goes past that is another debate. But I think that's all he was trying to say.
 
Cream said:
Technically "at it's simplest level", they are comparable.

"A group of people who are often judged and stigmatized based on a mental state that they can not control."

That statement applies to both pedophiles and homosexuals, doesn't it? If the similarities goes past that is another debate. But I think that's all he was trying to say.
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I find it in really poor taste to even make the comparison. For reasons that are pretty obvious.
 
DJ Crimson said:
I find it in really poor taste to even make the comparison. For reasons that are pretty obvious.
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It's important for people in an intelligent and well-functioning society to explore all facets of an issue. As has been showcased in many threads on this site, and articles all over, at the end of the day, there are pedophiles out there who don't LIKE their condition, and want to control it. Everyone is deserving of being treated with basic human decency, including someone like that.

Yes, it's true that some people are too quick to throw out the comparison carelessly, but it's still important to consider, unless you really, truly don't care about the rights of pedophiles.
 
Mauricio_Magus said:
Does every anime thread have to end up about pedophilia?

really?
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No but when a fellow gaffer says "anime is good" I worry he may not have the full information. I believe education is power and by informing people of both sides of a topic, we're all able to form better thoughts and arrive at the correct answer together. This is what it means to be a community. Love doesn't hid and love does not deceive so how can I in good conscious claim I love this community while not telling a mislead GAFfer potential life-if-not-freedom saving information before they walk down the wrong path. I guess I'm saying I'm doing it out of love. That said, please forgive me if I offended you; I meant no harm.
 
Cream said:
It's important for people in an intelligent and well-functioning society to explore all facets of an issue. As has been showcased in many threads on this site, and articles all over, at the end of the day, there are pedophiles out there who don't LIKE their condition, and want to control it. Everyone is deserving of being treated with basic human decency, including someone like that.

Yes, it's true that some people are too quick to throw out the comparison carelessly, but it's still important to consider, unless you really, truly don't care about the rights of pedophiles.
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You can do so without lumping in LBGT to support your reasoning for one. Since this is a whole entirely other issue. It's a deceptive comparison.
 
Cream said:
Well, lots of stuff is gross. Doesn't mean it shouldn't exist, right?
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obscenity

cajunator said:
Seek help?
Would you tell an lgbt person to seek help? Its literally the same sort of thing. People are different. We are all wired differently. Its not wrong its just how people are. This kind of thinking is far more damaging than some lolicon manga.
Society cant continue to just expect everyone to be homogenous even if it makes them uncomfortable.
i think holybaikal actually creates these threads with that in mind. She means well.
Click to expand...

unlike gay people, pedophiles are a potential danger to the community and should seek medical help in order to limit their danger. Although I can't say how effective this would be. But cmon, fappin' to moe doesn't seem like good therapy.
 
Cream said:
It's important for people in an intelligent and well-functioning society to explore all facets of an issue. As has been showcased in many threads on this site, and articles all over, at the end of the day, there are pedophiles out there who don't LIKE their condition, and want to control it. Everyone is deserving of being treated with basic human decency, including someone like that.

Yes, it's true that some people are too quick to throw out the comparison carelessly, but it's still important to consider, unless you really, truly don't care about the rights of pedophiles.
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Thanks for clarifying it. Im sorry if I opened a can of worms with the comparison.
 
cosmicblizzard said:
Stuff that should and will get it locked.

I'm sorry Baikal.
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It seems to happen... um... thank you.

I wish this didn't happen so much. I really appreciate NeoGAF on a lot of things. But on this subject.. it seems like I quite relate to as many people...
I don't see why we've gotten on such a subject as.. this one..

Sorry if I haven't gotten to responding to most people in this thread. Though some people are just making fun of me. :<
I should respond to Technomancer's posts and some of people's posts who were discussing it with me. It was on topic.
 
HolyBaikal said:
I think Zane was joking.. I hope..

Zane seems like he tries to.. make fun of me a lot. :<
I don't know what he meant..

Oh and... um.. small misunderstanding. That was actually Remilia Scarlet.
They do both have purple hair and live in Scarlet Mansion, though...
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I just saw the hat but yeah should have noticed the lack of the crescent on it.
 
This seems like a fine idea for a thread, I don't know why It's being demonized, sorry HolyBaikal.

From what I understand about moe, it just means anything cute. Anything that tugs at the heartstrings. Regarding strong, but cute or naive characters, I'd elect final fantasy 4s Rydia and Edward. I'm biased since I just came off the game, but they both fall under the cute/naive descriptions. They go through tough times and come out as stronger characters, but they retain some of the moe characteristics they had before.

As to the current topic this has progressed to, I don't think banning of fictional material that doesn't harm anyone is wise. What's the difference between this and those who want to ban violent media?
 
M0nochromatic said:
This seems like a fine idea for a thread, I don't know why It's being demonized, sorry HolyBaikal.

From what I understand about moe, it just means anything cute. Anything that tugs at the heartstrings. Regarding strong, but cute or naive characters, I'd elect final fantasy 4s Rydia and Edward. I'm biased since I just came off the game, but they both fall under the cute/naive descriptions. They go through tough times and come out as stronger characters, but they retain some of the moe characteristics they had before.

As to the current topic this has progressed to, I don't think banning of fictional material that doesn't harm anyone is wise. What's the difference between this and those who want to ban violent media?
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Those are great examples though Ed is very playful but she is extremely adept at hacking into databases and general computer skills.

Rydia was one of the characters I found cute really early on in the NES days. Always liked her design and abilities and fanart of her was often cute and elegant (at least initially)
 
There are a lot of shit-posters in this thread. Regardless of my opinion on moe, some of the posts made in this thread are blatantly ban-worthy. Not trying to backseat mod, more griping as to how bad the posters were allowed to be without any punishment.

My thoughts though: moe is never going to go away, it's way too popular. According to HolyBaikai's interpretation of what moe is - kind, endearing, feminine - you could evolve the genre. It seems rather simple and common sense that you would be able to. If it isn't going to go away, and if it can be given more depth, why are people so opposed to creating further depth in the genre? Is it because admitting its ability to grow implies value in something that they dislike?
 
A Link to the Snitch said:
There are a lot of shit-posters in this thread. Regardless of my opinion on moe, some of the posts made in this thread are blatantly ban-worthy. Not trying to backseat mod, more griping as to how bad the posters were allowed to be without any punishment.

My thoughts though: moe is never going to go away, it's way too popular. According to HolyBaikai's interpretation of what moe is - kind, endearing, feminine - you could evolve the genre. It seems rather simple and common sense that you would be able to. If it isn't going to go away, and if it can be given more depth, why are people so opposed to creating further depth in the genre? Is it because admitting its ability to grow implies value in something that they dislike?
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This is the part of moe that really appeals to me. It just puts me in a great mood when I watch it. A happy drug.
 
cajunator said:
Those are great examples though Ed is very playful but she is extremely adept at hacking into databases and general computer skills.

Rydia was one of the characters I found cute really early on in the NES days. Always liked her design and abilities and fanart of her was often cute and elegant (at least initially)
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I was referring to the naive prince from ff4 who is fairly soft and reserved but finds strength in himself as the story evolves.

I assume you mean Ed from Cowboy Bebop, who's a fantastic example for a good moe character! Ed fits in with the rest of the hardened adult cast very well, but is still a moe character. At least from what I understand moe to be. I think smart and competent can coincide with moe as character descriptors.
 
M0nochromatic said:
I was referring to the naive prince from ff4 who is fairly soft and reserved but finds strength in himself as the story evolves.

I assume you mean Ed from Cowboy Bebop, who's a fantastic example for a good moe character! Ed fits in with the rest of the hardened adult cast very well, but is still a moe character. At least from what I understand moe to be. I think smart and competent can coincide with moe as character descriptors.
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Yep sorry thats who I meant. Having never actually played an RPG until 2010 I dont know a lot about Final fantasy except character design and watching others play.
 
Xe4 said:
I'm not saying it's a perfect fit but Mabel is NOT moe, she's a ridiculous kid.
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In your opinion. Someone else may find her moe. Or are you the Monarch of Moe who decides what is and what isn't moe for everyone?

Seriously, when I see people post things along the lines of "moe anime should cease to be" all I'm reading is someone literally saying "shows that someone else likes but I don't should just disappear". What people find moe is personal ergo you may find K-On, or whatever typical examples are usually given, moe, but some who actually watch the show may find it entertaining for other reasons, like, heaven forbid, it's a light hearted entertaining show about a group growing up and chasing a dream.
 
Tizoc said:
Not mature enough IMO, they still behave like generic anime optimistic girls to me.
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I wouldn't lump them into generic characters that we usually found in CGDCT anime. Just because Yasuhara happened to have great senior coworker to bail her out of writer's block, that doesn't make problem she faced less serious.
Mauricio_Magus said:
Don't worry, I was expecting it tbh.
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You always make sensible response, but in the end they use your avatar against you :(
 
BGBW said:
In your opinion. Someone else may find her moe. Or are you the Monarch of Moe who decides what is and what isn't moe for everyone?

Seriously, when I see people post things along the lines of "moe anime should cease to be" all I'm reading is someone literally saying "shows that someone else likes but I don't should just disappear". What people find moe is personal ergo you may find K-On, or whatever typical examples are usually given, moe, but some who actually watch the show may find it entertaining for other reasons, like, heaven forbid, it's a light hearted entertaining show about a group growing up and chasing a dream.
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If we can't agree on what moe is to the point where we can't even discuss what it is or isn't then why and how can anyone use the term?
 
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