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[Watch Da Birdie]

What if they just like cute characters?
There are sexy characters and there are cute characters.

Of course, but there's somewhat of an eye-raiser to how many of these little girl characters have some roundabout excuse explaining that they're not little girls.

 

[Crossing Eden]

What if they just like cute characters?
There are sexy characters and there are cute characters.

And then there's stuff like this.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Touh...llow-case-Dakimakura-case-917/1613603180.html

Which is seemingly part of the reason why so many of these characters have some excuse for being over the age of consent despite looking like children.

 

[cajunator]

And then there's stuff like this.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Touh...llow-case-Dakimakura-case-917/1613603180.html

Which is seemingly part of the reason why so many of these characters have some excuse for being over the age of consent despite looking like children.

Theres a market for that but it doesnt make the character a bad one.
Touhou characters especially have a lot of interesting lore both created originally and by fans.
they are often depicted as looking much older and the original art isnt that great so their looks are ambiguous.
most of whats being marketed is actually derived from fanart.

 

[MHWilliams]

People can justify their attraction to a character that looks like a little girl because she's not actually a little girl.

Bingo.

What if they just like cute characters?
There are sexy characters and there are cute characters.

Also true. Biscuit (HunterxHunter) for example is definitely one of the better examples of the tropes as the manga does not make her sexual at all.

Of course then there's things like Nowi from Fire Emblem Awakening. 1000 years old apparently. (That's her official art, btw.) It's really not that rare. (Sorry, I though I should make this clear sexualized moe isn't rare, this particularly cross-section doesn't pop up a ton, just enough to be noticable.)

 

[Lv99 Slacker]

Somethings go deeper than they really are.

Moe doesn't.

Actually, I'm wondering if this subject does go a bit deep. It's a sexist concept - an idealization of femininity, that may have a part to play in the downward spiral of the country's economy due to their birthrate crises.

My comment was spurred by this WaPo article.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Theres a market for that but it doesnt make the character a bad one.
Touhou characters especially have a lot of interesting lore both created originally and by fans.
they are often depicted as looking much older and the original art isnt that great so their looks are ambiguous.
most of whats being marketed is actually derived from fanart.

The market for that should not exist at all imho. And the fact that so many characters have that same narrative excuse of some magical reason why although she looks like she's a child and acts like one is perfectly ok due to her some ridiculously high age. Seemingly the higher the age the more the character is sexualized.

 

[cajunator]

The market for that should not exist at all imho. And the fact that so many characters have that same narrative excuse of some magical reason why although she looks like she's a child and acts like one is perfectly ok due to her some ridiculously high age. Seemingly the higher the age the more the character is sexualized.

Markets for this stuff will always exist. There has always been questionable products in grey markets.
You dont have to buy the stuff.

Bingo.



Also true. Biscuit (HunterxHunter) for example is definitely one of the better examples of the tropes as the manga does not make her sexual at all.

Of course then there's things like Nowi from Fire Emblem Awakening. 1000 years old apparently. (That's her official art, btw.) It's really not that rare. (Sorry, I though I should make this clear sexualized moe isn't rare, this particularly cross-section doesn't pop up a ton, just enough to be noticable.)

Kino from Kino's Journey is a perfect example. She looks very cute but can defend herself with lethal force if necessary.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

The problem is when an otherwise innocuous series like Fire Emblem starts doing this stuff though.

Honestly the weird "moe" characters have started to seep into regular series. You use to have a choice to "not buy the stuff", but now it's hard to do so if you have an interest in any Japanese media.

 

[Xe4]

Theres a market for that but it doesnt make the character a bad one.
Touhou characters especially have a lot of interesting lore both created originally and by fans.
they are often depicted as looking much older and the original art isnt that great so their looks are ambiguous.
most of whats being marketed is actually derived from fanart.

Catjunator, I have a question, and it's kinda unrelated so sorry about this. What are your thoughts on child beauty pageants?

 

[cajunator]

Catjunator, I have a question, and it's kinda unrelated so sorry about this. What are your thoughts on child beauty pageants?

I hate child beauty pageants

 

[MHWilliams]

Kino from Kino's Journey is a perfect example. She looks very cute but can defend herself with lethal force if necessary.

Yep, Kino is another one of the better ones, especially in official light novel art. In fact, for a long time it's hard to tell what gender Kino is.

The problem is when an otherwise innocuous series like Fire Emblem starts doing this stuff though.

Honestly the weird "moe" characters have started to seep into regular series. You use to have a choice to "not buy the stuff", but now it's hard to do so if you have an interest in any Japanese media.

This is the issue I have, in that I'm fine when stuff doesn't bleed into things with a different tone. I'm down with things like Prison School, but I don't necessarily need fanservice or moe designs to pop up randomly in things that don't particularly need them. It's jarring.

 

[Cream]

The market for that should not exist at all imho.

Why?

 

[Crossing Eden]

You dont have to buy the stuff. Kino from Kino's Journey is a perfect example. She looks very cute but can defend herself with lethal force if necessary.

How old is she and is she ever sexualized?

The problem is when an otherwise innocuous series like Fire Emblem starts doing this stuff though.

Honestly the weird "moe" characters have started to seep into regular series. You use to have a choice to "not buy the stuff", but now it's hard to do so if you have an interest in any Japanese media.

This too.

Why?

The market for sexualized child like girls who look like children but have some narrative or backstory that puts their age to a comical level so that a few will have an excuse for lusting after someone who looks and acts like a child?

 

[Xe4]

I hate child beauty pageants

But some people think they are cute. Mothers dress their children up and send them on stage and they think it's adorable. Many people think its disgusting. I guess the point I'm making is just because people (ie you) think something is cute, doesn't mean it wasn't made with very sexual connotations. It's a large reason I respect you for liking that stuff, but also dislike the very stuff you think is adorable.

Also, Kino's Journey is awesome. Although, I would barely consider it moe (just looking at Kino, she looks like a boy), as it took place when the genre was young.

 

[Cream]

The market for sexualized child like girls who look like children but have some narrative or backstory that puts their age to a comical level?

Yes. Why? Why should this market "not exist"?

But some people think they are cute. Mothers dress their children up and send them on stage and they think it's adorable. Many people think its disgusting. I guess the point I'm making is just because people (ie you) think something is cute, doesn't mean it wasn't made with very sexual connotations. It's a large reason I respect you for liking that stuff, but also dislike the very stuff you think is adorable

To be fair, one has REAL children.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Yes. Why? Why should this market "not exist"?



To be fair, one has REAL children.

Sexualizing children is wrong. Gross!

 

[Cream]

Sexualizing children is wrong. Gross!

You mean those fake, non-existent children?

 

[cajunator]

Shirobako is another good example thats recent.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Yes. Why? Why should this market "not exist"?To be fair, one has REAL children.

I'm sure I don't need to explicitly explain the logic behind opposing the sexualization of children. 2D or otherwise. They're still technically children.

 

[MHWilliams]

Shirobako is another good example thats recent.

Great show.

Weird tiny, tiny moments of fanservice.

 

[cajunator]

How old is she and is she ever sexualized?


This too.


The market for sexualized child like girls who look like children but have some narrative or backstory that puts their age to a comical level so that a few will have an excuse for lusting after someone who looks and acts like a child?

Kino is somewhere between 15-17 and no she is never sexualized in any official works (but of course fanart exists)

 

[Xe4]

Yes. Why? Why should this market "not exist"?



To be fair, one has REAL children.

Which is why I consider child beauty pageants far worse than sexualized "loli" moe. But just because one is worse doesn't mean the other isn't bad.

 

[Cream]

I'm sure I don't need to explicitly explain the logic behind opposing the sexualization of children. 2D or otherwise. They're still technically children.

Real ones, of course.

But I personally don't have a problem with the existence of sexualized 2D, fake children. But I think we already had this thread recently. The only potential problem I see with it is that...I guess it perpetuates an ideal of sexualized children in society? But I feel like the people who would want that material would feel that way regardless. That said, not everyone that likes loli and shota stuff is a pedophile.

 

[Crash Station]

Sexualizing children is wrong. Gross!

I'm sure I don't need to explicitly explain the logic behind opposing the sexualization of children. 2D or otherwise. They're still technically children.

You two should have been around for this thread.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

You mean those fake, non-existent children?

Maybe I should reword this... Displaying kids as sexual objects and objects of desire is wrong.

 

[Htown]

You mean those fake, non-existent children?

Yep. Still gross.

 

[Cream]

Yep. Still gross.

Well, lots of stuff is gross. Doesn't mean it shouldn't exist, right?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Kino is somewhere between 15-17 and no she is never sexualized in any official works (but of course fanart exists)

All is well then concerning that character.

Real ones, of course.

But I personally don't have a problem with the existence of sexualized 2D, fake children. But I think we already had this thread recently. The only potential problem I see with it is that...I guess it perpetuates an ideal of sexualized children in society? But I feel like the people who would want that material would feel that way regardless. That said, not everyone that likes loli and shota stuff is a pedophile.

Just like with explicit violence against children I have a problem with it. And i'd certainly not wanna be friends with anyone who the sexualization of children in any media. It's disgusting and the amount of mental loopholes the people who create that stuff try to come up with is reason enough to think something is wrong.

 

[SalvaPot]

Ok, I have gone to this whole thread and most people think there is no such thing as a strong and mature character in moe anime.

I have the solution guys. There is one series.

Tamako Market.

For full disclosure, I DON´T consider myself a fan of moe anime. This and yotsubato are the only ones I enjoyed fully. That said, this series is about a young girl (Ha!) obsessed with making mochi, a delicious Japanese treat. As a protagonist, she is quiet sure of her identity and what she values, and that is my definition of a strong and somewhat mature character. As mature as a teenage girl can be, I guess.

So there you have it OP.

 

[Xe4]

Real ones, of course.

But I personally don't have a problem with the existence of sexualized 2D, fake children. But I think we already had this thread recently. The only potential problem I see with it is that...I guess it perpetuates an ideal of sexualized children in society? But I feel like the people who would want that material would feel that way regardless. That said, not everyone that likes loli and shota stuff is a pedophile.

Watch this. I don't agree with everything,but a lot of the video explains my thoughts well.
NSFW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owa5KcQ9Mxc&ab_channel=DouchebagChocolat

 

[Cream]

All is well then concerning that character.


Just like with explicit violence against children I have a problem with it. And i'd certainly not wanna be friends with anyone who the sexualization of children in any media.

Alright. I respect that opinion. But I really am curious and interested in it. Because I don't understand it. Let me ask you, can you make the disconnect between the sexualization of real children and fake children?

Beastiality is wrong right? Well, could you be friends with someone that is a furry? Or liked drawn images of girls fucking dogs?

If not, then I honestly don't understand why.

 

[cajunator]

But some people think they are cute. Mothers dress their children up and send them on stage and they think it's adorable. Many people think its disgusting. I guess the point I'm making is just because people (ie you) think something is cute, doesn't mean it wasn't made with very sexual connotations. It's a large reason I respect you for liking that stuff, but also dislike the very stuff you think is adorable.

Also, Kino's Journey is awesome. Although, I would barely consider it moe (just looking at Kino, she looks like a boy), as it took place when the genre was young.

Im sure some people actually have good intentions with child beauty pageants but beautiful is not really synonymous with cute. You can have a cute kid but calling them beautiful (not like "oh you have a beautiful baby there" but the more sexual connotation that a beauty pageant is more characteristic of) is very controversial.
not to mention I just cant stand beauty pageants in general.
however there is a distinct difference here between actual kids being presented this way and a fictional character. Im not saying I agree with even sexualizing anime children, just that it is victimless.

 

[Cream]

Watch this. I don't agree with everything,but a lot of the video explains my thoughts well.
NSFW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owa5KcQ9Mxc&ab_channel=DouchebagChocolat

I've seen it. I understand where he's coming from but the video doesn't begin to scratch the surface of the issue.

 

[cajunator]

Ok, I have gone to this whole thread and most people think there is no such thing as a strong and mature character in moe anime.

I have the solution guys. There is one series.

Tamako Market.

For full disclosure, I DON´T consider myself a fan of moe anime. This and yotsubato are the only ones I enjoyed fully. That said, this series is about a young girl (Ha!) obsessed with making mochi, a delicious Japanese treat. As a protagonist, she is quiet sure of her identity and what she values, and that is my definition of a strong and somewhat mature character. As mature as a teenage girl can be, I guess.

So there you have it OP.

Tamako Market is adorable as hell.
mochi is a great treat too.

 

[Xe4]

not to mention I just cant stand beauty pageants in general.
however there is a distinct difference here between actual kids being presented this way and a fictional character. Im not saying I agree with even sexualizing anime children, just that it is victimless.

Except it isn't victimless. It suggests normality in feeling sexually attractive towards young girls. Pedophiles who normally would be trying to control their urges because of the social stigma towards the action would now see it as (more) normal. I could easily see a pedophile acting on their urges they spurred on by viewing children sexualized in anime/manga and worse, hentaii.

Edit: Also, it's just plain gross. Just because two porn actors agree beforehand to film and distribute a (fake) rape scene, a victimless crime, doesn't make it ok.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Alright. I respect that opinion. But I really am curious and interested in it. Because I don't understand it. Let me ask you, can you make the disconnect between the sexualization of real children and fake children?

Beastiality is wrong right? Well, could you be friends with someone that is a furry? Or liked drawn images of girls fucking dogs?

If not, then I honestly don't understand why.

No, I don't think I could be friends with an open furry who liked drawn images of girls fucking dogs. Bestiality is disgusting, and so is the sexualization of children in anyway shape or form. It's simply gross. Yes there's a difference in the severity of lusting after real kids and lusting after 2d kids, however, here's a similarity that the two situations share:They're both disgusting.

 

[Cream]

Except it isn't victimless. It suggests normality in feeling sexually attractive towards young girls. Pedophiles who normally would be trying to control their urges because of the social stigma towards the action would now see it as (more) normal. I could easily see a pedophile acting on their urges they spurred on by viewing children sexualized in anime/manga and worse, hentaii.

Edit: Also, it's just plain gross. Just because two porn actors agree beforehand to film and distribute a (fake) rape scene, a victimless crime, doesn't make it ok.

1. I could see it going the other way. A pedophile who views the lolicon material has a healthy outlet to control their urges.

2. Um...it absolutely IS okay to make a fake rape scene wtf...You said it yourself. It's victimless!

No, I don't think I could be friends with an open furry who liked drawn images of girls fucking dogs. Bestiality is disgusting, and so is the sexualization of children in anyway shape or form. It's simply gross. Yes there's a difference in the severity of lusting after real kids and lusting after 2d kids, however, here's a similarity that the two situations share:They're both disgusting.

As long as you aren't arguing for the criminalization of 2D sexualized children, I have no reason to argue against you.

 

[cajunator]

Except it isn't victimless. It suggests normality in feeling sexually attractive towards young girls. Pedophiles who normally would be trying to control their urges because of the social stigma towards the action would now see it as (more) normal. I could easily see a pedophile acting on their urges they spurred on by viewing children sexualized in anime/manga and worse, hentaii.

Edit: Also, it's just plain gross. Just because two porn actors agree beforehand to film and distribute a (fake) rape scene, a victimless crime, doesn't make it ok.

Thing is, there ARE people in society who have pedophelia or ephebophilia and do not wish to touch real children. Just as with any fetish, they should be allowed to explore a fetish (that they cannot control or change by the way) through artificial means. The desire will always exist but this will more likely keep real children from being affected. Its the same with all forms of porn or fetish material. People need some form of release or there is risk of actual harm.
it is more harmful to deny peoples fantasies than to simply give them an outlet.

 

[Crash Station]

Except it isn't victimless. It suggests normality in feeling sexually attractive towards young girls. Pedophiles who normally would be trying to control their urges because of the social stigma towards the action would now see it as (more) normal. I could easily see a pedophile acting on their urges they spurred on by viewing children sexualized in anime/manga and worse, hentaii.

I've said this in the last thread and many others on the subject, but it's really a case by case thing with evidence actually showing the opposite.

Provided that stuff is indeed an extension of pedophilia and not pictophilia like some studies suggest, there's still the outlet argument. Around the time that stuff was introduced in Japan, sexual abuse crimes against children was lowered drastically in the same way rape cases lowered when normal pornography became more widespread in several countries.

There may not be a correlation, and even if there is, that doesn't necessarily mean you're entirely wrong. IIRC, there was a recent case in Japan where someone utilized a magazine or doujin or something of that type to trick an underage girl into doing exactly what we're talking about with him (god it feels so wrong to type that). Of course, that may be an anomaly and the existence of this stuff have satiated more people than they've inspired into recreating it.

But even taking all that into account, it's still not that simple. There's really not enough research on the subject.


Boy, this thread is getting locked.

 

[Crossing Eden]

As long as you aren't arguing for the criminalization of 2D sexualized children, I have no reason to argue against you.

If it were up to me all 2D child porn would be banned already.

Thing is, there ARE people in society who have pedophelia or ephebophilia and do not wish to touch real children. Just as with any fetish, they should be allowed to explore a fetish (that they cannot control or change by the way) through artificial means. The desire will always exist but this will more likely keep real children from being affected. Its the same with all forms of porn or fetish material. People need some form of release or there is risk of actual harm.
it is more harmful to deny peoples fantasies than to simply give them an outlet.

I'd rather those people seek help then instead of being pandered to.

 

[Xe4]

OK. Enough with this subject. It got out of hand. That was my bad, I didn't see it going that way. Let's discuss moe, not loli and child porn, there was a thread about that two days ago.

 

[cajunator]

I've said this in the last thread and many others on the subject, but it's really a case by case thing with evidence actually showing the opposite.

Provided that stuff is indeed an extension of pedophilia and not pictophilia like some studies suggest, there's still the outlet argument. Around the time that stuff was introduced in Japan, sexual abuse crimes against children was lowered drastically in the same way rape cases lowered when normal pornography became more widespread in several countries.

There may not be a correlation, and even if there is, that doesn't necessarily mean you're entirely wrong. IIRC, there was a recent case in Japan where someone utilized a magazine or doujin or something of that type to trick an underage girl into doing exactly what we're talking about with him (god it feels so wrong to type that). Of course, that may be an anomaly and the existence of this stuff have satiated more people than they've inspired into recreating it.

But even taking all that into account, it's still not that simple. There's really not enough research on the subject.


Boy, this thread is getting locked.

I agree this isnt an easy subject but its good to see discussion about it however brief.

 

[Cream]

If it were up to me all 2D child porn would be banned already.


I'd rather those people seek help then instead of being pandered to.

Well then I hope you like more pedophiles running around the streets with nothing legal to satiate them.

 

[Crash Station]

I'd rather those people seek help then instead of being pandered to.

You know if in the future it's proven to be an effective outlet, I wouldn't be surprised if professional help actually recommends that kind of stuff. We already know there's no cure for pedophilia except in VERY rare cases when it's a physical issue like that man with the tumor.


That being said, I completely agree that I'd rather not see it creep into mainstream works, but that feels like multiple subjects ago.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Well then I hope you like more pedophiles running around the streets with nothing legal to satiate them.

Like I just said if they want to seek help for those urges then they should instead of being enabled, what about the cases where it's not enough to just watch something like that? Weren't you just saying that these type of people actually don't wanna touch real children?

You know if in the future it's proven to be an effective outlet, I wouldn't be surprised if professional help actually recommends that kind of stuff. We already know there's no cure for pedophilia except in VERY rare cases when it's a physical issue like that man with the tumor.


That being said, I completely agree that I'd rather not see it creep into mainstream works, but that feels like multiple subjects ago.

Part of the problem imo is that we're seeing a rise of that kinda media and that is already is more common than it was in the past.

 

[Karkador]

Well then I hope you like more pedophiles running around the streets with nothing legal to satiate them.

This is like advocating that people watch cooking shows if they're hungry

 

[cajunator]

If it were up to me all 2D child porn would be banned already.


I'd rather those people seek help then instead of being pandered to.

Seek help?
Would you tell an lgbt person to seek help? Its literally the same sort of thing. People are different. We are all wired differently. Its not wrong its just how people are. This kind of thinking is far more damaging than some lolicon manga.
Society cant continue to just expect everyone to be homogenous even if it makes them uncomfortable.
i think holybaikal actually creates these threads with that in mind. She means well.

 

[Cream]

This is like advocating that people watch cooking shows if they're hungry

No, that's not right at all. It would be like saying to a meat-lover "Eat synthetic meat" if meat was illegal. Your analogy falls about because cooking shows do not provide sustenance. Fiction with sexualized children offers a clear outlet.

 

[Crash Station]

Part of the problem imo is that we're seeing a rise of that kinda media and that is already is more common than it was in the past.

Not disagreeing on that. As much as I support its right to exist, I don't know how I'd feel about it becoming normalized.

That being said, I can't imagine that happening any time soon. It's looked down on in Japan and even if it has found it's way into a lot of anime, that isn't a mainstream medium over there. Manga is still the leader in that regard and there's still a ton of stuff absolutely devoid of any kind of child sexualization. Of course that could be said for anime as well, but the ratio is better with manga.

 

[Jake.]

...i knew i shouldn't have opened this thread.