Support NeoGAF

[DeathbyVolcano]

Mechanically I find NSMB and DKCR to be pretty remedial compared to their predecessors, and have had a number of aspects removed to simplify things.

So...yeah?

Donkey Kong Country 1 and 2 were piss easy!

 

[dimb]

Donkey Kong Country 1 and 2 were piss easy!

Not talking about difficulty, just mechanically there's stuff taken out of DKCR that was around in previous games. Stuff like swimming, animals, that kind of stuff. DKCR is easily the hardest Donkey Kong game.

 

[Anth0ny]

Not talking about difficulty, just mechanically there's stuff taken out of DKCR that was around in previous games. Stuff like swimming, animals, that kind of stuff. DKCR is easily the hardest Donkey Kong game.

Really? DKC2 is kicking my ass... I thought DKCR was pretty easy in comparison, besides the horrible minecart stages.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Mechanically I find NSMB and DKCR to be pretty remedial compared to their predecessors, and have had a number of aspects removed to simplify things.

So...yeah?

DKCR sure, but NSMB Wii? The series of actions in that game is way more complex, and open, than any previous 2D Mario?

 

[DragonKnight]

I mean, you're saying if I delve into some creepy Pokemon battler network of 13 year olds where i get like a Magic the Gathering time sync obsession i might eventually knock into the substance, but the reality is I play to collect the most monsters I can get and beat the game. if the battle system is not challenged in the game, then it has failed as far as I'm concerned. It's too cheesy. I'm not saying it's not there for someone else, it's just not for me. I think it's shitty game design.

I have no problem playing family games. Mario Galaxy is my favorite game ever. I have problems playing BABY games, where there is no challenge and everyone's hand is being held lest we actually require an individual to distinguish themselves.

How can you be so wrong and yet so right within the same post? I mean Galaxy isn't my favorite game ever but it has at least the number three spot down pat. Great now I wanna play it again.

And the game (Pokemon) is primarily marketed to children. Give the game a break. I will give you this though. The teams...at least for the gym leaders and the Elite Four need to be randomized.

 

[guek]

I find it laughable that Amir0x is saying the superguide is the result of nintendo catered to pussies.

That's missing the entire point of the superguide. The superguide allows nintendo to create more difficult levels to please hardcore fans while still giving casuals the ability to enjoy their games without too much frustration. Has the superguide built an environment that tolerates people who can't play video games well? Sure, but I hardly think that's too much reason for complaint when they're putting out games like NSMBWii, galaxy2, and DKCR, all of which are tough to 100% in their own right.

Also, anyone who says pokemon is simple rock paper scissors clearly hasn't played it since gold/silver at least. Are they easy games? Yeah, I guess. Are they easy to master? To be the very best? LIKE NO ONE EVER WAS? No, that takes quite a bit of patience and knowledge.

 

[mmxzero]

Really? DKC2 is kicking my ass... I thought DKCR was pretty easy in comparison, besides the horrible minecart stages.

The only thing horrible about the minecart stages is your opinion of them.

 

[Instro]

The argument against super guide is like saying games shouldn't have selectable difficulty levels. Giving the designer and the players choice is always a better thing.

More importantly super guide is a great way to manage difficult in certain genres where a simple difficulty setting option wont be effective, like in a platformer for example.

 

[DragonKnight]

I find it laughable that Amir0x is saying the superguide is the result of nintendo catered to pussies.

That's missing the entire point of the superguide. The superguide allows nintendo to create more difficult levels to please hardcore fans while still giving casuals the ability to enjoy their games without too much frustration. Has the superguide built an environment that tolerates people who can't play video games well? Sure, but I hardly think that's too much reason for complaint when they're putting out games like NSMBWii, galaxy2, and DKCR, all of which are tough to 100% in their own right.

Also, anyone who says pokemon is simple rock paper scissors clearly hasn't played it since gold/silver at least. Are they easy games? Yeah, I guess. Are they easy to master? To be the very best? LIKE NO ONE EVER WAS? No, that takes quite a bit of patience and knowledge.[/QUOTE]

His problem is that he wants the game to present it's real depth within the main story. Do that and you lose a huge portion of the game's audience. Mom: "Son, did you do your homework?" Son: "No mom. I have to finish EV training my Larvitar and then breed to get a Squirtle with perfect IVs in three categories". The game SHOULD have a hard option though to cater to both audiences. That would be ideal IMHO.

Amirox = -1 to pokemon sales and I don't think Nintendo really cares.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

guy the next nm is 22!

I know but that does come until 2013 if I'm not mistaken.

 

[dimb]

DKCR sure, but NSMB Wii? The series of actions in that game is way more complex, and open, than any previous 2D Mario?

Open? Compared to something like Mario 3 or Super Mario World? Both those games have much larger environments to accommodate lots of vertical movement and flying. I've always considered NSMB on both the DS and Wii to use the original Super Mario Bros. as a jumping off point.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Not talking about difficulty, just mechanically there's stuff taken out of DKCR that was around in previous games. Stuff like swimming, animals, that kind of stuff. DKCR is easily the hardest Donkey Kong game.

It seemed that they had to rush the game, which would explain a lot of the missing stuff seen in the artwork. And frankly I was glad they cut the underwater levels, I always hated those levels in games.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

It seemed that they had to rush the game, which would explain a lot of the missing stuff seen in the artwork. And frankly I was glad they cut the underwater levels, I always hated those levels in games.

You're not alone. They're never fun. It's always a case of search for the new oxygen source.

 

[dimb]

You're not alone. They're never fun. It's always a case of search for the new oxygen source.

Donkey Kong has an oxygen device that has always allowed him to breath indefinitely underwater.

This was clearly outlined in the Donkey Kong Country novel.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Donkey Kong has an oxygen device that has always allowed him to breath indefinitely underwater.

This was clearly outlined in the Donkey Kong Country novel.

Silly man, the books arent canon.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

17 days and counting.

 

[snesfreak]

17 days and counting.

I'm not gonna make it.
frozencartman.jpg

 

[Bisnic]

I'm not gonna make it.
frozencartman.jpg

Just tell yourself that in 10 days, only 1 week will remain!

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Open? Compared to something like Mario 3 or Super Mario World? Both those games have much larger environments to accommodate lots of vertical movement and flying. I've always considered NSMB on both the DS and Wii to use the original Super Mario Bros. as a jumping off point.

That's level design, not mechanics. I'd agree NSMBWii is more contained or "boxy" and that's due to also supporting a 4 player design, but the end result isn't necessairily something I'd consider dumbed down either. Also, SMB3's levels are generally much smaller and shorter even.

Mechanics though, Mario himself has a much more complex moveset and the variables at play, especially with more players, is exponentially more complex than the NES or SNES games. 100%-ing 9-7 in NSMBWii is probably the most difficult single level in any 2D Mario game, and it's design really illustrates how well complex mechanics (wall jumping, floating, ice sliding) and feindish evironmental hazards (fire breathing Pirana plants in an ice block level) can marry with the game's capable design.

I also find it a little weird you make no distinction between NSMB games. Personally, I think the jump between DS and Wii is huge, more than comprable to something like SMB to SMB3.

 

[Model 500]

I really enjoyed the minecart stages in DKCR, always wondered what some people complained when I first played it, great stuff! The things I didn't like about the game were collision detection, non-satisfying jump (and sfx) from enemies head (compared to NSMBW) and some of the bosses. And to me these were minor faults and did not take anything significant away from an amazing action game.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

I think R700 is more area efficient, and by dropping to 40 or 28nm they could theoretically add more shaders for a more powerful GPU than what the original R700 was capable of, but it's more likely they would keep it as-is for lower power consumption.

More shaders beyond the 800 in RV770?

 

[StevieP]

that's where i come in. and yes, nintendo has been progressively teaching and rewarding kids for playing games that are essentially designed for retarded people. any idiot can wave his hands in front of a TV with a vcr remote, with dazzling lights and idiotic sounds as their reward.

the Wii is honestly the biggest disgrace of a system in recent memory, and i will never change my opinion. i'm hoping the rumored return of Nintendo to 'real' gaming is the beginning of a new generation of actual games (and opposed to cheaply made shovelware) and return to form.

The amount of incessant narcissism in this thread is truly disheartening.

 

[Death Dealer]

More shaders beyond the 800 in RV770?

A smaller process will allow a faster clock speed than the original PC R700 family design, plus the progress of tech will allow better ram. Kinda doubt Nintendo would spec more shaders than 800, easier to bump up speeds and improve ram latency and bandwidth.

 

[Sianos]

I think Nintendo is aiming for a console strong enough to be able to have multiplatform games without developers remaking them from scratch while still being able to be manufacture the console cheaper.

A sort of upper-middleground console, if you will.

 

[donny2112]

I think Nintendo is aiming for a console strong enough to be able to have multiplatform games without developers remaking them from scratch while still being able to be manufacture the console cheaper.

Yes. They're not looking to break the bank by having 2011 parts in a console manufactured in 2011, but they don't want a repeat of Wii, either.

 

[elrechazado]

I think Nintendo is aiming for a console strong enough to be able to have multiplatform games without developers remaking them from scratch while still being able to be manufacture the console cheaper.

A sort of upper-middleground console, if you will.

and don't we think that this will probably backfire when MS and sony inevitably make a jump beyond in say, 2 years?

 

[Father_Brain]

and don't we think that this will probably backfire when MS and sony inevitably make a jump beyond in say, 2 years?

This has been already said before in other Cafe threads, but it's extraordinarily implausible that the necessary tech to pull off Samaritan-quality graphics in a $400 console-sized box will exist in time for hardware launching in 2014, let alone earlier.

 

[swerve]

and don't we think that this will probably backfire when MS and sony inevitably make a jump beyond in say, 2 years?

Well, depending on the plan for 'cafe', Nintendo can do the same thing again, 3 years after that. Not much use crystal-balling. Cafe could be an utter failure before those first two years are up, even. Or it could have become the default lead platform and the natural transition for all those Wii gamers with all those Wii games and peripherals.

We can't really predict anything without knowing more about the system, its 3rd party support, its hardware, the Nintendo first party lineup, the controller....

 

[donny2112]

and don't we think that this will probably backfire when MS and sony inevitably make a jump beyond in say, 2 years?

Absolutely not. brain_stew is the much more knowledgeable person here, but the thinking is that there's no way MS/Sony could come up with a console so advanced by 2014 that ports to Cafe's hardware shouldn't be fairly doable, as long as the RAM isn't too low.

Now, it's possible that MS/Sony will take a bloodbath on hardware and/or price it so high no one would buy it, but that doesn't seem especially likely. MS is just about to break even on the 360 generation after billions down with the Xbox, and the rumors have been for a couple of years now that Microsoft won't subsidize the 360 like the did with Xbox anymore. They have to sink/swim on their own merits. Sony has only just broken even on the hardware, to say nothing for the billions lost just this generation. Therefore, neither is likely to repeat an Xbox (which wasn't an impossible port to PS2, anyways) or PS3-like result again.

Obviously, we can't know for sure until everyone's cards (and middlewares) are on the table, but the extremely likely scenario is that porting to Cafe should be a GameCube-level simple task and not a Wii-level task.

 

[ecosse_011172]

Eurogamer have again today stated confidently that Cafe won't be much more powerful than PS360.


"What's more interesting is to think about the market reaction to a console which will launch six or seven years after the other HD systems, but only slightly out-match them in terms of graphical prowess."

"The downside is that it won't actually be any more graphically powerful than its rivals."

 

[Instro]

That article sounds like pure speculation and hypothetical analysis.

 

[GDGF]

That article sounds like pure speculation and hypothetical analysis.

Pretty much.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

A smaller process will allow a faster clock speed than the original PC R700 family design, plus the progress of tech will allow better ram. Kinda doubt Nintendo would spec more shaders than 800, easier to bump up speeds and improve ram latency and bandwidth.

True. Those things would allow for an almost-staggeringly powerful console using improved 2008 technology on a modern process.

 

[watershed]

Eurogamer have again today stated confidently that Cafe won't be much more powerful than PS360.


"What's more interesting is to think about the market reaction to a console which will launch six or seven years after the other HD systems, but only slightly out-match them in terms of graphical prowess."

"The downside is that it won't actually be any more graphically powerful than its rivals."

Interesting read but it doesn't report any new information or even any new blind quotes about the system's power. It seems more like an editorial based on the rumors we already know about, not a story reporting new rumors.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

To build on what donny was talking about. You also have to add on that I HIGHLY doubt that Sony and MS are going to wait till 2014 to launch their next consoles. Just wait till E3 and see how all the press and attention is going to be on Nintendo's next gen console. As I've said before in this thread, this is not Sega coming off the failure of the Sega CD, 32x, and Saturn. This is Nintendo coming off the insanely successful Wii that just kicked the 360's and PS3's collective asses. Do you really think Sony and MS are going to let Nintendo have the only next-gen console on the market for 2 years?

This announcement for E3 that they're going to be showing their next gen console just lit an assload of fires under the asses of MS and Sony. I guarantee both went into full OH SHIT need a new console ASAP mode when they caught wind of it. I would not be surprised to see one of them launch between end of 2012 and middle of 2013 with the other coming out end of 2013.

No way Sony and MS are letting Nintendo be the only next gen console for 2 years. Not happening. So anyone trying to say Sony or MS will be using Y-tech which will be ready in 2014 is just wrong. They're not going to wait that long.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Eurogamer have again today stated confidently that Cafe won't be much more powerful than PS360.


"What's more interesting is to think about the market reaction to a console which will launch six or seven years after the other HD systems, but only slightly out-match them in terms of graphical prowess."

"The downside is that it won't actually be any more graphically powerful than its rivals."

this would be more like a Nintendo thing to do.

It would also put the other two companies at ease, they would not feel the need to rush out the next generation if Cafe is just matching this one.

IGN vs. Eurogamer FIGHT!

I would like the IGN's specs better

 

[EatChildren]

I'm still going with 'barely anymore powerful' for the Cafe. I know the rumoured specs, I know they're a sizable improvement, I just refuse to buy any of it until I know factually otherwise. I cannot, no matter how hard I try, see Nintendo jumping into any kind of high end hardware. They might say they're doing it, but stuff like the 3DS shows their interpretation of such things is very different to what most think.

In fact, I fully expect the Cafe's reveal to be seriously underwhelming on a graphical level. I expect a lot of ports from third parties that are a mix of looking exactly the same as their 360/PS3 counterparts, and looking worse because they've spent less time with the hardware. From Nintendo I expect them to be like any developer who started from scratch with this generation's hardware; still getting used to the power under the hood. I dont doubt Nintendo will make full use of it over time, but they'll be starting like scratch like everybody else did years ago, and their titles will show.

Maybe this is a stupid perspective to have, especially based on the rumours. Whatever. I dig Nintendo, I dig thier games, and I dig their technological quirks. But they're well and truly out of the hardware race as far as I care, and I expect them to play extremely conservative even when they claim they're not. It will be a 3DS situation.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I refuse to buy into any of IGN's hyperbolic bullshittery. I dont care what their analysis of the hardware is, or what they're sources told them. They have a history of talking shit and over estimating and now is not the time to forget that.

 

[watershed]

No way Sony and MS are letting Nintendo be the only next gen console for 2 years. Not happening. So anyone trying to say Sony or MS will be using Y-tech which will be ready in 2014 is just wrong. They're not going to wait that long.

I'm sure Sony and MS are gonna speed things up a bit but I think they will also want to wait and see how well the cafe is received upon reveal and release on the market before retiring their current consoles. The Eurogamer article linked above, and other sites have argued well on why Sony and MS are in no rush to start the next cycle. And if the cafe debuts to underwhelming sales, like only matching or slightly exceeding 360 and PS3 like numbers I don't think Sony and MS will be in much of a hurry.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

To build on what donny was talking about. You also have to add on that I HIGHLY doubt that Sony and MS are going to wait till 2014 to launch their next consoles. Just wait till E3 and see how all the press and attention is going to be on Nintendo's next gen console. As I've said before in this thread, this is not Sega coming off the failure of the Sega CD, 32x, and Saturn. This is Nintendo coming off the insanely successful Wii that just kicked the 360's and PS3's collective asses. Do you really think Sony and MS are going to let Nintendo have the only next-gen console on the market for 2 years?

This announcement for E3 that they're going to be showing their next gen console just lit an assload of fires under the asses of MS and Sony. I guarantee both went into full OH SHIT need a new console ASAP mode when they caught wind of it. I would not be surprised to see one of them launch between end of 2012 and middle of 2013 with the other coming out end of 2013.

No way Sony and MS are letting Nintendo be the only next gen console for 2 years. Not happening. So anyone trying to say Sony or MS will be using Y-tech which will be ready in 2014 is just wrong. They're not going to wait that long.

Agreed. I expect both Xbox3 and PS4 to be on the shelves no later than fall 2013.

 

[The Technomancer]

Maybe this is a stupid perspective to have, especially based on the rumours. Whatever. I dig Nintendo, I dig thier games, and I dig their technological quirks. But they're well and truly out of the hardware race as far as I care, and I expect them to play extremely conservative even when they claim they're not. It will be a 3DS situation.

No, its a safe one. I feel the exact same.

 

[watershed]

Maybe this is a stupid perspective to have, especially based on the rumours. Whatever. I dig Nintendo, I dig thier games, and I dig their technological quirks. But they're well and truly out of the hardware race as far as I care, and I expect them to play extremely conservative even when they claim they're not. It will be a 3DS situation.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I refuse to buy into any of IGN's hyperbolic bullshittery. I dont care what their analysis of the hardware is, or what they're sources told them. They have a history of talking shit and over estimating and now is not the time to forget that.

I've been saying this forever now, I firmly believe the cafe will be to the wii what the 3ds is to the ds. Significantly more powerful, with more modernized system features but still lagging behind in both power and system features when compared to their competitors.

IGN has always over sold graphical power talk in order to generate hits and get fans drooling.
Did the exact same thing with the 3ds.

And Nintendo is not abandoning the wide consumer base approach in order to "recapture the hardcore". That one line from one rumor is waaaay over valued. I feel confident that the cafe will be exactly what the 3ds is but with a better day 1 feature set and exactly what the Eurogamer article says it will be.

 

[Kafel]

If the console allows you to play on the TV then continue on a little screen it would be a gigantic fail if Advance Wars is not a launch title.

Also, for games using both at the same time : Luigi Mansion with a ghost sensor on the padlet.


What are your ideas guys? Is it the thread to discuss them by the way?

 

[herzogzwei1989]

On another note, if Zelda Cafe looked like this improved Unreal Engine 3 tech-demo, I'd be a happy man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5XahF-3DWo

It looks like a current-gen version of Twilight Princess.

 

[From The Dust]

I don't know who to believe. IGN loves hyperbole and I'm not sure of Eurogamer's track record. I hope for a good jump above PS360

 

[EatChildren]

I've been saying this forever now, I firmly believe the cafe will be to the wii what the 3ds is to the ds. Significantly more powerful, with more modernized system features but still lagging behind in both power and system features when compared to their competitors.

IGN has always over sold graphical power talk in order to generate hits and get fans drooling.
Did the exact same thing with the 3ds.

And Nintendo is not abandoning the wide consumer base approach in order to "recapture the hardcore". That one line from one rumor is waaaay over valued. I feel confident that the cafe will be exactly what the 3ds is but with a better day 1 feature set and exactly what the Eurogamer article says it will be.

Exactly. I look forward to another generation of "nintendo abandoned the hardcore", especially from the dickheads I have to deal with, who write off every game on the Wii because the horsepower isn't cutting edge, and because it's not full of shitty dudebro shooters and cinematic wank.

For IGN, lets keep in mind this nugget of gold:

Several developers that have experienced 3DS in its current form have reported, off the record, that it has processing capabilities that exceed the Nintendo Wii, and with 3D shaders they can make games that look close to current generation visuals on the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3[/b] on the lower resolution screens.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

I don't know who to believe. IGN loves hyperbole and I'm not sure of Eurogamer's track record. I hope for a good jump above PS360

RV770 would provide a 4-5x leap beyond PS360, and the RV740 would provide about a 3x leap.

 

[From The Dust]

RV770 would provide a 4-5x leap beyond PS360, and the RV740 would provide about a 3x leap.

I understand that. but with IGN, you can't be too careful. just look at their pre-3DS stuff

 

[herzogzwei1989]

I understand that. but with IGN, you can't be too careful. just look at their pre-3DS stuff

Their pre-3DS stuff was outrageous. I think Cafe will end up being somewhere inbetween IGN and Eurogamers expectations.

 

[Instro]

To be fair, when you look at a game like RE Revelations IGN wasnt too far off the mark. It does pull off a number of effects found on the current gen consoles.

 

[ombz]

On another note, if Zelda Cafe looked like this improved Unreal Engine 3 tech-demo, I'd be a happy man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5XahF-3DWo

No matter how Zelda Cafe looks technically I know Nintendo will make it look great artistically.