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IGN rumour: PS4 to have '2 GPUs' - one APU based + one discrete

re: underlined part: Not sure its 3d related, just about meeting the demand - the popularity of fusion chips.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-turns-to-TSMC-for-more-Fusion-chipsets.60709.0.html
OnQ123's post after mine and your's make it clear that AMD is going to TSMC to provide for more demand. Edit: From my previous message: Oh as to demand exceeding capacity:
If there is enough demand for TSVs, GlobalFoundries also will bring up the technology in its Fab 1 in Dresden. A fab in Singapore will be used for additional capacity for 2.5-D chips using silicon interposers if demand for the process exceeds what the New York fab can handle. GlobalFoundries is also exploring use of TSVs for MEMS and other products.

The last few onQ123 posts have been very informative, this video, from a diagram shown in the video, it appears the Fusion Chip shown has CPU, GPU and DDR3 Memory in the same package; all on the same silicon with no 3D stacking is possible but unlikely if just for yield issues. If 3D stacking is being used it's unlikely that APUs will be built with 3D wafer stacking as TSMC has said that they are not supporting standards that allow building from wafers made at other foundries. Regardless, from the last few posts it looks like 3D wafer stacking is less likely. 3D wafer stacked DDR3 memory connected with TSV interposer is still possible.

Edit: See above edit, it appears that putting the posts together the NEW APU Fusion chips with memory are 3D wafer stacked and if demand exceeds the Global foundries FAB in the US and Germany then TSMC using interposer 2.5D will be used. Most likely CPU and GPU are on the same silicon with Memory 3D wafer stacked above it but who knows?

The 2014 and beyond AMD Heterogeneous CPU and Fabric-like computing caused me to do some reading. It's not mentioned by name in the video but that's what was being described. It allows multiple CPUs of the same or different design to run concurrently and share data in a fabric (both hardware and software) that has a common address scheme where concurrency is supported properly with enough cache. It's very complicated and there are various schemes to do this being proposed with one that has become an ISA standard.

The Key as I understand from the video is to provide libraries that make it easy for the programmers, a lesson learned from the Cell which was one of the first heterogeneous CPUs. The idea is different CPU designs have use cases that they excel at but in doing this it makes programming for multiple CPUs very difficult thus the move to OpenCL.

If a FPGA is being included in the PS4, which was mentioned by the Sony CTO but might be for a PS5, it would in some cases be 50 times faster at some functions than the CPU even though running at 1/4 the clock speed. The problem is a FPGA is very difficult to program. Again libraries that make it easier to use a FPGA are needed. (FPGAs are going to reduce in price because of 3D wafer stacking and their use expanded because of both reduced price and new software that make them easier to use.)

onQ123 posts and yours hinge on whether Sony is using off the shelf AMD APU or is building a custom SOC chip. Will it include a FPGA? Sony wants to use the PS4 chip in medical imaging, again mentioned by the Sony CTO. IF it's an off the shelf design they won't have as much advantage.....Software and the Sony name only?

How long has Sony been working on this? Are they thinking as far ahead as they did with the PS3? Is onQ123's post on point...there is support for that as a Sony interview in about 2010 mentioned smaller cycles for game consoles due to the cost in the hardware advances needed to support 10 year cycles. BUT the Sony CTO talked about spending a billion dollars developing the PS4 chipset in the latest post (the PS3 Cell only 400 million and that was shared with IBM and Toshiba)? If off the shelf AMD APU, this is pretty much impossible...... Which do we believe?
 
So from that new info looks like Sony system is not going to be that great .
If Sony is to far behind MS in specs next gen i will get a MS system .
I am PS fan but not so much that i won't change system makers if the try and cheap out to much.
 

-viper-

Banned
Same. There is absolutely no point in buying a next-gen system if it isn't significantly more powerful than the current crop. Either that, or I'll stick to PC gaming where online is free.

Ideally the PS4 and Nextbox would be equally as good. PS4 sounds like garbage though.
 
I don't think that console companies will go all out on hardware because of the shrinking market. My guess is that they'll be really conservative try to at least break even on day 1 for each sale and emphasize online services and exclusive games.

The market has changed, possibly forever.
 
RE: Backward compatibility via a plug in adaptor which would need parts of the PS3 (Cell at least) and a die shrink to use less power:

From BY3D http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1639930&postcount=1 which cites this article:

cell+rsx_608.jpg


How certain is it this combined Cell + RSX processor is going to happen?
It isn’t. Some will argue they may not be integrated because they’re not on the same semiconductor process: The Cell requires an advanced SOI-process and the RSX seems to work with an ordinary CMOS bulk-process. But even if there is a cost penalty at chip level, those are likely well offset by the savings at PCB (Printer Circuit Board) and set level.

When is all this going to happen?
Assuming it is going to materialize in the first place, announcement would likely take place at E3 2012, introduction sometime in the course of 2012, in time for the ‘holiday season’. And it’s likely to come sooner than any PlayStation 4 announcement.

Will PS3 Ultra Slim feature a fan?
Interesting question. For sure, a fanless design will be the aim – it would save energy, space and, above all, cost. The shrunk and integrated chips will certainly consume less energy. Our guess is it will be fanless.
The Xbox360S was not fanless @ 32nm 45nm and IF Sony wants to have an Adaptor to allow PS3 BC for the PS4, 28nm makes more sense. The next node will probably be the final reshrink for the PS3 as it's gotten prohibitively expensive and will have to last the life of the PS3 so maybe 2013, 28nm with 2.5D or maybe even 3D wafer stacking (different processes for RSX and Cell require this) and 3D stacked memory (XDR not required as 3D stacked memory will be faster) included.

The design will be driven by economics and moving RSX to SOI if cheaper could have both Cell and RSX on the same silicon with only memory 3D stacked and attached with a transposer (same as 360S but in that case only the 10 meg eDRAM used by the GPU).

Linked in the article a 500Gig Network server/ Torne tuner due out July 2012 in Japan:

Called NASNE it appears to have 5 channels and will serve over the network (Using DTCP-IP) to; PS3, Vita, Sony tablets, Vaio, Xperia play and most likely Sony network TVs. I'd guess coming to Europe also but less likely the US as our Cable companies are scrambling everything.

July 2012 might indicate a timetable for software support in the PS3. I can imagine something like Gstreamer being useful. Torne already uses SVG (could be just OpenVG) and it has to have some commercial player (can't use AVM+ for commercial use) as does the Play TV EU Player.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
I am hearing hints of 7850 + discrete 7870 levels of performance out of the PS4.

Forget the second bit and it's more in line with a couple of things I've heard. Which would be nothing to sniff at if true, tbh.

But I don't know. There are so many variations doing the rounds at the moment.
 
I hope at least that ps4 will continue to support sata, usb , hdmi, bluetooth for there main periphery and extend there supporting media codecs with xiph.org/others and the OS has to be really fast with more multitasking.
The xross media bar is a must. That gui is simply excellent.
 
I hope at least that ps4 will continue to support sata, usb , hdmi, bluetooth for there main periphery and extend there supporting media codecs with xiph.org/others and the OS has to be really fast with more multitasking.
The xross media bar is a must. That gui is simply excellent.
The PS4 developer kits we are hearing about use AMD APUs that contain a PC's support chips.

See the middle bottom diagram for the AMD APU has the Chipset & IO included

OldFusion.png


In this post: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36843444&postcount=995 I listed some of what's included with AMD probably only listing advanced features like USB 3.0 and Display Port 1.2:

Display port 1.2 => Can direct drive head mounted display or glasses, inexpensive DP to HDMI adaptors available.
USB 3.0
Low power idle AMD Zero core power technology
DISCRETE DIGITAL MULTI-POINT AUDIO Audio The first GPUs that can simultaneously output multiple, independent audio streams
Infinity view with multiple monitors

AMD “TRINITY” DOCKING SOLUTION – ONE CABLE, MANY BENEFITS
 Single cable – Mini-DisplayPort Connector
 Four simultaneous displays
 Blu-ray protected content
 GPU acceleration
 3D stereoscopic capable
 Full bandwidth USB 3.0
 Dock powers notebook
 Non-proprietary
 Cross-platform compatible
 Low cost
 Targeted 2H12 production*

Topics at an AMD developer Summit interesting read.
 
I heard that late last year. What I did not hear was Jaguar being involved in one of these systems. Yech!

Thank you for the info, sweetvar26 :)



Beaten to the punch - it was a few bucks per console



Yep. If there is any way to implicate sweetvar26's friend with any kind of information (even innocent code names he posted) he will lose his job. AMD is VERY tight and the NDAs with all 3 consoles have been restrictive as hell to say the least, which is why there have been a lot less leaks this go around. Be safe, sweetvar26.

Man, that old HW and they were making a few bucks only? wow.
 

StevieP

Banned
Man, that old HW and they were making a few bucks only? wow.

Well its not just BOM when you're talking about profit per console. Retailers were making somewhere around 10 bucks I think. Nintendo was making only a few. Which highlights how heavy the losses on the other 2 systems were... Sony was losing around 300 buck's per system on the BOM alone. Puts rumours of a jaguar-based ps4 into perspective. I always thought it was going to be closer to their target specs (SoC/apu with steamroller and cape Verde/pitcairn) and be more competitive with the new MS box but this is like a rollercoaster if there is any truth to it.
 

Ashes

Banned
Well its not just BOM when you're talking about profit per console. Retailers were making somewhere around 10 bucks I think. Nintendo was making only a few. Which highlights how heavy the losses on the other 2 systems were... Sony was losing around 300 buck's per system on the BOM alone. Puts rumours of a jaguar-based ps4 into perspective. I always thought it was going to be closer to their target specs (SoC/apu with steamroller and cape Verde/pitcairn) and be more competitive with the new MS box but this is like a rollercoaster if there is any truth to it.

pretty sure they took a hit....

edit: source:

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Nintendo-loss-profit-income-revenue,news-14982.html

Nintendo hopes to turn its 37.3 billion yen operating loss into a 35 billion yen operating income next year. The company said it expects to stop selling the 3DS below cost by the middle of the fiscal year ending March 31, 2013. The Japanese company also talked about the upcoming release of the Wii U, which will be available in the U.S., Europe and Japan at the end of this calendar year.
 

i-Lo

Member
My emotional facet is currently distraught at the thought of a weak sauce console from Sony and my rational one is busy justifying that hardware by injecting sales related logic.

Looks like no news is good news until final specs are declared. I hope we keep on receiving leaks without putting anyone's job in jeopardy.

Perhaps Epic's dream of running their flagship engine without cutting too many corners will remain a dream till the next to next gen (if Sony doesn't pack up shop before then).
 

Ashes

Banned
My emotional facet is currently distraught at the thought of a weak sauce console from Sony and my rational one is busy justifying that hardware by injecting sales related logic.

Looks like no news is good news until final specs are declared. I hope we keep on receiving leaks without putting anyone's job in jeopardy.

Perhaps Epic's dream of running their flagship engine without cutting too many corners will remain a dream till the next to next gen (if Sony doesn't pack up shop before then).

Not that there is a xPower ratio formula, but if those 78** rumours are true, that's into the x7 territory, easily....
 

nib95

Banned
If the PS4 turns out to be weak sauce in power compared to the 720, I'll probably go 720 excluisve till the PS4 is dead cheap. Don't do it Sony.
 
I can't really envision a scenario where PS4 is weaksauce compared to the Xbox 720.

Sure, it could be the case that the PS4 = PS2, and 720 = Xbox. Meaning, it's more powerful, but not a generational leap. Hell, I can't even fathom that much of a divide, really.

And regardless, even if a system is slightly gimped relative to the other, it's going to be cheaper to produce and should, in theory, result in a lower price point at retail.
 
Rumour is that Epic and other major third party engine devs had convinced MS to revise their designs to achieve greater power. As a result, it is being said that launch for it has been delayed.

It's really bizarre. It's like MS didn't learn a single thing from Sony this gen.
 

i-Lo

Member
It's really bizarre. It's like MS didn't learn a single thing from Sony this gen.

Please, I am tired of this argument. Why do consoles need to be weak? What now, is WiiU going to be yardstick as to how consoles should progress? After 7 years is it too much to ask for proportional progress? Of course, that said, some people's expectation of technology and willingness to pay for it esp. on this forum exemplifies the meaning of entitlement.

Anyway, as to your statement, given AMD are designing it, unlike Sony that commissioned the creation of a bespoke chip for PS3 through IBM, MS will not be sinking hundreds of millions of dollars in R&D.

Microsoft can take the hit though. They could sell a console at between 399-499(doubt they will break 499) at loss of a hundred bucks, but they have xbl fees to buffer/minimize the loss the first 2 years.

I fully expect the true next gen console from MS to be between 450 and 500 dollars. Sony's platform wouldn't deviate from it either.
 

guek

Banned
Microsoft can take the hit though. They could sell a console at between 399-499(doubt they will break 499) at loss of a hundred bucks, but they have xbl fees to buffer/minimize the loss the first 2 years.

It's still potentially very risky. I don't think just because such a strategy failed with the PS3 that it's always destined to fail, but there are obvious a bunch of things that could potentially go wrong.

I think the worst thing that could happen for them is Wii U getting a strong foothold on the market, PS4 coming in at a cheaper price and carving out a nice sizable niche for itself as compromise between the other consoles, and consumers abandoning XB3 because it's too darn expensive compared to the competition.

Actually, now that I think about it, that's kind of what happened this gen except with Sony and MS flip flopped.

Please, I am tired of this argument. Why do consoles need to be weak? What now, is WiiU going to be yardstick as to how consoles should progress? After 7 years is it too much to ask for proportional progress? Of course, that said, some people's expectation of technology and willingness to pay for it esp. on this forum exemplifies the meaning of entitlement.

Conversely, why do consoles need to be uber powerful? I think it's definitely possible to have a decent compromise that makes the mass market, hardcore gamers, and developers all happy. You could argue that the 360 did exactly that this gen.
 

kuroshiki

Member
Microsoft can take the hit though. They could sell a console at between 399-499(doubt they will break 499) at loss of a hundred bucks, but they have xbl fees to buffer/minimize the loss the first 2 years.

MS can take hit but they are now getting ready for their next, biggest update, aka Windows 8 and WP8.

Guess which one has the higher priority in their mind?
 
I don't think Microsoft wants to lose billions of dollars again taking an upfront loss on hardware.

They've indicated in shareholder meetings that the Xbox division is going to float on its own now without incurring massive losses.

Can't see them taking the same strategy they did the past two gens
 

i-Lo

Member
Conversely, why do consoles need to be uber powerful? I think it's definitely possible to have a decent compromise that makes the mass market, hardcore gamers, and developers all happy. You could argue that the 360 did exactly that this gen.

Enlighten me when did I say they needed to be "uber powerful"?

I consider a console like Wii to be weak for this gen and WiiU to be the same for next gen. And yes, you are correct in saying that 360 is the perfect example of power, price and developer friendliness. That's why I said a proportional increase in power available today. Something that can be used by say Epic to take graphics, physics, animation etc to another level (which is what they are promising with UE4).

Sorry if I seem edgy, but people's perception of asking for better hardware being equivalent to be a graphics whore is jading (and I am not talking about you in specific).

If I am not mistaken, software sales for a platform is also a large source of income for the platform holder.
 

guek

Banned
Enlighten me when did I say they needed to be "uber powerful"? Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth.

I consider a console like Wii to be weak for this gen and WiiU to be the same for next gen. And yes, you are correct in saying that 360 is the perfect example of power, price and developer friendliness. That's why I said a proportional increase in power available today. Something that can be used by say Epic to take graphics, physics, animation etc to another level (which is what they are promising with UE4).

Sorry if I seem edgy, but people's perception of asking for better hardware being equivalent to be a graphics whore is jading.

I never said you said that lol, I'm just saying there should be a balance.

But that said, even though I admire what the 360 has done, I feel it stretched itself too far in the beginning and, in a lot of ways, MS got really lucky. 360 is doing very well now (though 2011 was obviously its peak year), largely due to the 1-2 punch of kinect and price, both of which were made possible by this being a longer than normal generation. I think MS has learned their lesson when it comes to focusing solely on the hardcore and will likely put a much larger focus on the mass market next time around when it comes to software, but I have no idea what they're going to do about pricing and profit margins. It looks like they could go either way in my opinion.

Furthermore, I think expecting a comparable jump from 2005 tech to 2012 tech is very naive (though I'm not sure if that's what you're saying). Heat, size, and component costs are going to prevent that. We've historically seen console tech move at that same pace for every single generation prior, but I'm a firm believer that things have changed drastically in the past 7 years. What point is there in making a cutting edge console when only a handful of dev houses will really be able to afford taking advantage of all that power? What's the point when the mass market is satisfied with considerably less? What's the point if you can make a lot more money with something much more conservative? I think had the 360 been cheaper at launch, a bit less powerful, and come packed with kinect on day 1, it would have kicked the shit out of the Wii, and MS would have made a lot more money. We also wouldn't have had to wait 8 years for a new generation, we'd probably be playing our Xbox3s right now.
 
Enlighten me when did I say they needed to be "uber powerful"?

I consider a console like Wii to be weak for this gen and WiiU to be the same for next gen. And yes, you are correct in saying that 360 is the perfect example of power, price and developer friendliness. That's why I said a proportional increase in power available today. Something that can be used by say Epic to take graphics, physics, animation etc to another level (which is what they are promising with UE4).

Sorry if I seem edgy, but people's perception of asking for better hardware being equivalent to be a graphics whore is jading (and I am not talking about you in specific).

If I am not mistaken, software sales for a platform is also a large source of income for the platform holder.

Glad you know the final specs. Mind sharing them with the rest of us?
 

Roo

Member
So... what's the general consensus about PS4's power?
is Sony on beast mode again or are they taking the modest route this time around?
 

iceatcs

Junior Member
Rumour is that Epic and other major third party engine devs had convinced MS to revise their designs to achieve greater power. As a result, it is being said that launch for it has been delayed.
I think they're only request for more memory. You can have both crap CPU and GPU with higher capacity memory.
 

i-Lo

Member
I never said you said that lol, I'm just saying there should be a balance.

But that said, even though I admire what the 360 has done, I feel it stretched itself too far in the beginning and, in a lot of ways, MS got really lucky. 360 is doing very well now (though 2011 was obviously its peak year), largely due to the 1-2 punch of kinect and price, both of which were made possible by this being a longer than normal generation. I think MS has learned their lesson when it comes to focusing solely on the hardcore and will likely put a much larger focus on the mass market next time around when it comes to software, but I have no idea what they're going to do about pricing and profit margins. It looks like they could go either way in my opinion.

Furthermore, I think expecting a comparable jump from 2005 tech to 2012 tech is very naive (though I'm not sure if that's what you're saying). Heat, size, and component costs are going to prevent that. We've historically seen console tech move at that same pace for every single generation prior, but I'm a firm believer that things have changed drastically in the past 7 years. What point is there in making a cutting edge console when only a handful of dev houses will really be able to afford taking advantage of all that power? What's the point when the mass market is satisfied with considerably less? What's the point if you can make a lot more money with something much more conservative? I think had the 360 been cheaper at launch, a bit less powerful, and come packed with kinect on day 1, it would have kicked the shit out of the Wii, and MS would have made a lot more money. We also wouldn't have had to wait 8 years for a new generation, we'd probably be playing our Xbox3s right now.

What about a console with a GPU equivalent of AMD R7850 and CPU that doesn't act as a bottleneck? It's mid range enough for today's PC and as a customized solution on consoles should be plenty to attain the goals set by say Epic.

Glad you know the final specs. Mind sharing them with the rest of us?

No I really don't. Just go to the official list of dev statements about the WiiU. It's is similar to what the current gen is with an unique controller. So it is in no way a generational leap over the current HD systems.
 
I'll probably pick up my first Xbox console ever if the PS4 turns out to be significantly weaker. Power alone doesn't win console wars, but I want my console titles to look as purdy as possible and have developed a slight bias in owning the most powerful console in a generation after owning a PS3 (yes, I know most PS3 ports don't look as good because it is harder to develop for).
 

guek

Banned
What about a console with a GPU equivalent of AMD R7850 and CPU that doesn't act as a bottleneck? It's mid range enough for today's PC and as a customized solution on consoles should be plenty to attain the goals set by say Epic.

If it's possible without breaking the bank, sure! I just don't want next gen to last for another 8 friggin years because the console manufacturers overextended themselves.
 

i-Lo

Member
I kinda figured that's what you meant. The jump would be comparable to the other previous jumps, but not "light years" ahead of Wii U either.

Doesn't that more or less have to do with that WiiU will finally have the defining feature of next gen, i.e. programmable shaders?

The next gen is more about fidelity of IQ (tex. quality, AA and AF), physics (oh lawdy, deliver us from dem clipping) and more complex lighting models.

If it's possible without breaking the bank, sure! I just don't want next gen to last for another 8 friggin years because the console manufacturers overextended themselves.

That's what I am wondering as well. It will have more than decent power and it's not really a top end card. As such it really shouldn't break the bank given that there are no more bespoke internal chips.

If anything, the same power should become more efficient next year when series 8 from AMD is released. It'll improve both yield the power consumption that this year's equivalent model.
 

Roo

Member
I kinda figured that's what you meant. The jump would be comparable to the other previous jumps, but not "light years" ahead of Wii U either.

like...?
I think what I'm trying to say is... should I be worried about Wii U?
I wanted to own just one console next gen (In this case, Nintendo's) but if we're getting
a noticeable jump from the other two then I'm pretty much screwed lol
 
Doesn't that more or less have to do with that WiiU will finally have the defining feature of next gen, i.e. programmable shaders?

The next gen is more about fidelity of IQ (tex. quality, AA and AF), physics (oh lawdy, deliver us from dem clipping) and more complex lighting models.

That will be a part of it yes, but not the primary reason.

like...?
I think what I'm trying to say is... should I be worried about Wii U?
I wanted to own just one console next gen (In this case, Nintendo's) but if we're getting
a noticeable jump from the other two then I'm pretty much screwed lol

Sorry. The ones you mentioned in your previous post (PS2>>PS3). That said, those other questions are better served in the Wii U thread.
 

i-Lo

Member
That will be a part of it yes, but not the primary reason.



Sorry. The ones you mentioned in your previous post (PS2>>PS3). That said, those other questions are better served in the Wii U thread.

What is the primary reason then?

lol, every thread slowly becomes a wii u thread eventually. IT'S INEVITABLE

All roads leading to one destination. It was inevitable, lol


EDIT: Give me something like this for next gen. That's only a vertical slice of course but a the lighting, particle effects give a good idea on the scope of evolution.
 
What is the primary reason then?

Since I discuss Wii U quite a bit in other threads, I try to avoid Wii U talk in threads about the other consoles. But real quick there isn't necessarily one primary reason. Wii U's GPU will have more shaders than current gen GPUs along with some Nintendo-added features. If you have other questions, we can take it to the Wii U thread.
 

i-Lo

Member
Since I discuss Wii U quite a bit in other threads, I try to avoid Wii U talk in threads about the other consoles. But real quick there isn't necessarily one primary reason. Wii U's GPU will have more shaders than current gen GPUs along with some Nintendo-added features. If you have other questions, we can take it to the Wii U thread.

I think I should have been more specific. I am not talking about WiiU specifically. I am talking about what separated the last generation from this one. And beside core processor speed improvement and increase in memory, programmable shaders are what seem to be the game changer.
 
I think I should have been more specific. I am not talking about WiiU specifically. I am talking about what separated the last generation from this one. And beside core processor speed improvement and increase in memory, programmable shaders are what seem to be the game changer.

Ok. I was still responding in more of a context related to Alistair's post.
 
Rumour is that Epic and other major third party engine devs had convinced MS to revise their designs to achieve greater power. As a result, it is being said that launch for it has been delayed.

Yeah, Arthur Gies even said on the most recent Rebel FM that he had heard independently the next Xbox was planned to launch this fall, but got pushed to next year. That fits well both with the rumor that MS went back to the drawing board when developers like Epic and Crytek balked at the original specs, and the conflicting reports that seemed to suggest MS was literally building two different machines. It would even support the "insider info" from this thread that AMD is scrambling to shift more engineering resources towards Microsoft's system, and the SemiAccurate rumor that MS ordered way more of the "Oban" chips a few months ago for the next console that seemed appropriate for a 2013 system.

We still don't know very much about the relative targets for Sony and MS, though. MS may have raised their sights significantly over their original design, but that doesn't necessarily mean they've overshooting the PS4 meaningfully. And scrambling at the last minute to build a high end system may not bode well for the elegance and efficiency of the final product. It may also lend credence to the idea that they've abandoned PowerPC as out "insider" suggested in favor of a more off the shelf AMD APU design, even if it's two of them duck-taped together!
 
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