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IGN rumour: PS4 to have '2 GPUs' - one APU based + one discrete
- Thread starter gofreak
- Start date
What?
Indeed. I was not contesting whether the difference would be noticeable or not. Rather it was an statement of the fact that it seems like all the basic elements that are needed to make graphics "realistic" are now present.
Lesson on why one should refrain from typing while intoxicated
bgassassin
Member
Taking what I know combined with the Sony CTO's talk I would say we are looking at a 28nm SoC with a 4-core AMD CPU, at least 2GB of GDDR5, 18 CUs (probably Sea Island), and DSPs.
How did you even draw that conclusion from me saying that? I've even said in this thread that it's supposedly going to be 10x PS3.
Indeed. I was not contesting whether the difference would be noticeable or not. Rather it was an statement of the fact that it seems like all the basic elements that are needed to make graphics "realistic" are now present.
Lesson on why one should refrain from typing while intoxicated
I remember back in ps1 days, when people went omg! At mgs etc. and then at metal gear solid 2, then killzone 2 trailer, and Motorstorm trailer.
I think gt5 is is amongst the most realistic games, and even that game can improved upon by a factor of 10.
Proelite
Member
Sea Island is either going to be the highest 7000 card or the 8000 series, which one are you talking about?
I am writting from my mobile phone while workingIndeed. I was not contesting whether the difference would be noticeable or not. Rather it was an statement of the fact that it seems like all the basic elements that are needed to make graphics "realistic" are now present.
Lesson on why one should refrain from typing while intoxicated
not sure how apu with no extra gpu can be 10x
I am writting from my mobile phone while working
I wish I had a job I could drink and surf the internet at
James Sawyer Ford
Member
Is this supposed to be pretty good? What are the added DSPs for?
I assume that it'll probably have the performance somewhere between 7850 and 7870 (increased core clock perhaps) and have power consumption somewhere between 7850 and 7770. All this assumes that its design will be predicated on what to expect from 8850 next year from AMD.
U and i should open a gaming studio and instead of making games wr just drink and pretend to be working. Who knows maybe we find a publisherI wish I had a job I could drink and surf the internet at
jeff_rigby
Banned
I thought the plan was to use the new SOC in medical imaging as well as games. Are you saying that there will be a SOC designed with components that support HSA and no second GPU? If so that would be hard to do from a heat point of view and it would be hard to use the GPU as both CPU and GPU efficiently at the same time. No UE4 support?
Also kinda a waste for medical imaging as a Game console GPU power is not needed for medical imaging...all the extra shaders are useless and a FPGA is much faster at some of the jobs that would be seen in the medical industry. AMD is supporting bundled Ray Tracing for lighting using an ALU (CPU-GPU combination) in addition to advanced graphics on the second GPU. If only one GPU, 4 X86 CPUs won't cut it, it would be better to go back to SPUs with a couple of PPUs.
Many GPU compute elements (Cell SPU like elements) at lower clock speeds are more efficient than one very fast SPU or X86. But one or a couple of PPU or X86 or Arm CPUs with branch prediction is still needed. 4 X86 CPUs is old design and old thinking, FPUs are not needed.
Charlie at SimiAccurate also thinks (agrees with the SimiAccurate article) HSA with APU and second GPU is likely. He was jumping in the forum thread to only correct and appeared to agree with the posters who were supporting HSA and Fabric computing by bringing up the AMD Video.
"Taking what I know" What do you know and where did it come from and in what context? I can not imagine that Sony or even Microsoft will not use what the entire industry has been moving toward since 2008. See the 2008 date at the very bottom of the following picture:
AMD has been planning and not talking about 3D wafer stacking since 2008!!!!!!! 3D wafer stacking allows AMD to build a SOC to order using off the shelf 3D wafer elements designed to standards. AMD can include a customers custom IP (like a FPGA for instance or DSPs) and still be economically practical using 3D wafer standards. In addition all the advantages of a SOC in added efficiencies are included as well as economy of scale. 3D wafer stacking is coming on-line in 2013 and will be used (combination of 2.5 and 3D stacking) to build game console SOCs.
There is a rumor that the next Xbox will only have backward compatibility for the first three years of it's 10 year life. This probably means the next Xbox will also use an AMD APU with BC supplied by 3 PPU cores with those 3 PPU cores removed after 3 years. So whatever is supplying CPU performance (APU) is MUCH more efficient than 3 PPUs, they aren't even considering using the 3 PPUs as part of the OS or platform going forward. Same would apply to a PS4 and BC (3D stacked system memory in a PS4 should exceed XDR RAM and a redesigned Cell for a Slimer slim should use cheaper 3D stacked memory also so the XDR interface which caused problems in shrinking Cell and FlexI/O on the other side should be gone in favor of a SOC internal I/O and 3D stacked memory external to SOC).... 4 X86 CPUs plus a GPU platform would benefit from SPUs or PPUs, not using that hardware indicates some OS feature can't use that hardware efficiently without a redesign to how cache works and a cache redesign would break BC (HSA cache redesign to support Fabric computing).
Is there something I'm missing. Is a single chip solution (economics) driving the design? Multiple rumors have both next Xbox and PS4 having two GPUs which makes sense if APU + GPU. Are all these rumors false including the latest 2 Jaguar X86 plus 2 meg cache each in a APU.
Is what you know about developer hardware; "4-core AMD CPU, at least 2GB of GDDR5, 18 CUs (probably Sea Island), and DSPs" sounds like a developer platform? Developer hardware would be built with what is available now with parts chosen to be as close to the target performance as possible. 2014 AMD fusion designs (HSA + fabric computing) are not yet available. Only a UE4 developer would be informed of CPU features like parallel computing CPUs (ALU), first generation games on next generation boxes should be GPU bound not CPU bound. If you are a developer, are you cautioned to not use anything but "engine" routines which should use AMD HSA libraries and will be JIT translated to use newer hardware.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Exclusive: Next Xbox Pricing, Launch Window Revealed
January 6 2013 possibly at CES (yes, Microsoft will no longer give a Keynote address or have a presence there as Microsoft the Software company but might be there to show and announce a new CE game platform.). This fits, they can't announce before October of 2012 by which time AMD will have determined if yields are high enough to start ramping up production for a 2013 launch.
$2000 PC in a box for $299-$399 and BC for only 3 years plus rumors of 2 GPUs and GPUs from AMD mean the Next Xbox will likely be a AMD Fusion x86 APU + second GPU like rumors about the PS4.
Pricing and release schedule for the PS4 should be similar.
January 6 2013 possibly at CES (yes, Microsoft will no longer give a Keynote address or have a presence there as Microsoft the Software company but might be there to show and announce a new CE game platform.). This fits, they can't announce before October of 2012 by which time AMD will have determined if yields are high enough to start ramping up production for a 2013 launch.
$2000 PC in a box for $299-$399 and BC for only 3 years plus rumors of 2 GPUs and GPUs from AMD mean the Next Xbox will likely be a AMD Fusion x86 APU + second GPU like rumors about the PS4.
Pricing and release schedule for the PS4 should be similar.
I don't think MS, and especially Sony, are going to be willing to lose so much out of their next consoles.
phosphor112
Banned
... I really don't think that is a literal comment ...
jeff_rigby
Banned
The AMD fusion HSA and 3D stacking efficiencies are giving the equivalent of a 2010 $2000 gaming PC performance for only $399.00.
It can't be just me that you misunderstand as I quoted the article......I thought this obvious. Maybe not if you haven't been reading the posts.... For instance 3D stacked ultra wide I/O memory inside the SOC is 1Tbyte/sec speed, that's 50 times faster than the XDR memory in the PS3. Now understand that multiple CPUs are working on the same video Frame buffer at the same time. GP GPU at 30X a SPU speed, 2 X86 at about the same speed as 2 PPUs and a second GPU at some multiple of the RSX. It's all speculation but what most are expecting and would seem to be supported by the Cite.
Expect a 2014 mid range AMD APU + GPU PC will be very close to the Xbox next game console specs and should sell for about $600. This is the jump in performance expected for both PCs and Game consoles using this tech. Big difference is that for expand-ability PCs will be using GDDR5 SIMM modules which will be less efficient.
Sorry, didn't mean to make that impression. I know it's not a literal comment, but it would still indicate they plan to lose a good chunk per system when I just don't see that being the case, especially for Sony.
I was commenting on the article directly, I didn't misunderstand anything.
I see you're still sticking with your 3D stacking dream though. Can't wait to see how that turns out.
phosphor112
Banned
... who said they planned on losing money? Who is implying that?
EDIT: Even if they did in the very beginning, that loss wouldn't be for long, as the benefits completely outweigh the harm caused.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yup, 3D stacked memory is faster and should EVENTUALLY be cheaper, if not the first year then by the second. There is also the offset in motherboard complexity.
KageMaru; OK, I see it now, you don't believe 3D stacking is coming thus the performance increases in a $2000 Gaming PC have to be due to brute force and higher cost hardware. I'd think about that for a while, either the quote is a lie, Microsoft is going to loose $1,300 per console sold or you need to rethink 3D stacking being available for Game consoles in 2013. I've provided several cites that prove this is the case. See:
http://www.gsaglobal.org/events/2012/0416/docs/3D_Panel.pdf Game Console SOCs shown using 3D stacked DDR3 (faster, cheaper & more energy efficient than XDR2) and 3D ultra wide I/O memory (30 times (1Tbit/sec) faster than XDR2 ) in 2013-2014. Design started 4 years ago to be in place NOW. This is news that is 2 weeks old. JDEC standard for ultrawide I/O memory was approved Dec 2011.
Game console volumes are going to jumpstart 3D wafer stacking. Global foundries is planning for over demand to be filled by the Global foundries German foundry as well as TSMC using more 2.5D rather than a combination of 2.5 and 3D.
I just read "$2000 PC in a $300 console" as an indication that they plan to lose a decent amount per unit. I find that hard to believe after how much was lost this gen.
I understand the loses would be minimized and eliminated throughout the generation, I just question how much they are willing to lose that much right out of the gate.
edit:
So you were taking that quote literally? lol
I think it's quite clear where we both stand on the possibility of 3D stacking in the next gen consoles. There's no need to repeat yourself over and over again as it's not going to change what I think.
The way I see it. We don't have 3D stacking next gen, which is a likely case, I'm not disappointed and we get what I expected while you and those who follow what you say may end up disappointed. If we do, somehow, get 3D stacking in the next systems, I'll be pleasantly surprised and the systems could turn out better than I expected. So basically it's a win/win for me here.
bgassassin
Member
Sea Islands are the 8000 GCN series of cards just like Southern Islands are the 7000 GCN cards.
That's very good. What also has to be remembered is that not only has the power seen a big increase, we looking at a DX11-equivalent PS4 as opposed to the DX9-equivalent PS3 is. The DSPs would be able to handle functions taking the burden off the CPU and possibly GPU if they are used in that manner. For example Wii and Wii U have/will have an audio DSP. It handles the sound output so the CPU doesn't have to freeing it up for other tasks.
Way too many assumptions made. Also Cell was supposed to be used for more than PS3 so I'm not getting hung up on what it will do beyond the console.
What I know (some of it):
4-core AMD CPU (originally Steamroller, though the other poster is saying that changed to Jaguar)
2GB GDDR5
18CU GPU (1152 ALUs)
From the Sony CTO:
28nm is stable
Talk on SoC
Talk on DSPs
Now can things change? Of course as these target specs came out last year. I'm just sticking to a design based on that info right now.
Just because it would retail for $399 doesn't mean that's what it would cost them $399. That "$2000 gaming PC performance" might be costing them $600-$700 and then they're losing like Sony did during PS3's launch.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yup, that's why I mentioned that pricing and release date should be similar.
It's not a lock as Sony could have a custom design with for instance a FPGA which could be used in the medical industry and give an advantage in things like Speech recognition. Add $60.00 and a few months to Sony's schedule. With AMDs professed (in two cites) 2.5D and 3D wafer stacking
with wafers process optimized to standards & an HSA OS + Fabric computing, they can build SOCs to order by SONY or Microsoft adding custom IP (CPUs).
"Way too many assumptions made". True, as many assumptions on your part as mine...we are on both sides of a timeline going forward with my side having efficiencies that would reduce costs and improve performance. Are they ready to use in a new generation? Is there a compelling reason to wait if necessary to get these efficiencies? Several months ago there was not an easy answer, a week ago I posted cites that support my position. June at the AMD developers conference we should get more information. As always we will probably get more on what Microsoft is doing than we get from Sony.bgassassin said:
"I'm not getting hung up on what it will do beyond the console." This time it's an ISA and standard rather than hardware and accepted by Khronos. take a look at the AMD Developer lectures. There may be some fine tuning to the PS4 SOC.
Proelite
Member
You mentioned that PS4's GPU is over 1800 teraflops.
With 1152 SPUs, it's more likely to be over 2 teraflops.
bgassassin
Member
Yep, BP.
I've made no where near as many. The only assumptions I've made come from including the CTO's comments. And I'll check the document out when I get a chance.
800Mhz
I've made no where near as many. The only assumptions I've made come from including the CTO's comments. And I'll check the document out when I get a chance.
800Mhz
Sounds like an underclocked Pitcairn. Why not push it to a 1GHz or at least to the same level as 7850 (850MHz). I do estimate of higher power draw (similar to the difference between 7870 and 7850) but the temperature difference should be minimal and would be detrimental to the reliability.
Am I the only one that is sort of dicey on pairing a Pitcairn-class GPU chip on an APU with... Jaguar?
To me that sounds like pairing a 500hp V8 engine with a 15L gas tank. Wait now I'm not sure if I make sense. haha (Mondays)
I know that you have HSA/GPGPU computing available to you, but that's not a replacement for absolutely *everything* that a general-purpose CPU can do. Yes, the DSPs will take care of audio (which can free up quite a lot of CPU resources - as much as a couple CPU threads, even) but... it just doesn't seem right to have such a weak link in the chain. Maybe my tired brain just isn't seeing the benefits of a mobile-computing-class CPU paired with a relatively beefy GPU for a console due to lack of sleep. In my admittedly Monday-tinted world - if you're going to spend 120-150w on a GPU, you'd have enough thermal budget to put a (customized) desktop-class CPU as well and not a low-power-oriented CPU.
To me that sounds like pairing a 500hp V8 engine with a 15L gas tank. Wait now I'm not sure if I make sense. haha (Mondays)
I know that you have HSA/GPGPU computing available to you, but that's not a replacement for absolutely *everything* that a general-purpose CPU can do. Yes, the DSPs will take care of audio (which can free up quite a lot of CPU resources - as much as a couple CPU threads, even) but... it just doesn't seem right to have such a weak link in the chain. Maybe my tired brain just isn't seeing the benefits of a mobile-computing-class CPU paired with a relatively beefy GPU for a console due to lack of sleep. In my admittedly Monday-tinted world - if you're going to spend 120-150w on a GPU, you'd have enough thermal budget to put a (customized) desktop-class CPU as well and not a low-power-oriented CPU.
Proelite
Member
Is it accurate to say that Sony went for the Bruce Lee, and MS went for the Hulk for next generation?
I don't see how MS can manage more than twice the flops with a traditional console size. They have to be forced to double their memory 4GB to achieve a noticeable tech advantage.
I don't see how MS can manage more than twice the flops with a traditional console size. They have to be forced to double their memory 4GB to achieve a noticeable tech advantage.
bgassassin
Member
While I do believe MS bumped up their specs beyond what they may have originally planned. I don't think it's power will be "that" much more than PS4's. Memory is the most likely increase. They may have chosen to go with a split pool of memory to reach 4GB unless they are spending the money to design a larger density GDDR5 module.
The DSPs could/would be used for more than audio. They could make a "Cell-like" design with the DSPs.
The DSPs could/would be used for more than audio. They could make a "Cell-like" design with the DSPs.
gundamkyoukai
Member
So it seem going by the last few post Sony is going the opposite of PS3 .
In PS3 they had a monster CPU and a weak GPU for PS4 they going to have a good GPU and a weak CPU.
Well i guess they think it's better to spend there thermal budget on GPGPU which can help out the CPU with certain task , looking forward to see how this works out .
In PS3 they had a monster CPU and a weak GPU for PS4 they going to have a good GPU and a weak CPU.
Well i guess they think it's better to spend there thermal budget on GPGPU which can help out the CPU with certain task , looking forward to see how this works out .
Proelite
Member
If they're going for split, then they might as well go for 4GB of DDR3, and 2GB of GDDR5, which is cheaper and is more useful in certain situations. They can also go for 4GB of XDR2, since from what I know they can do that with 8 chips.
I think the rumours imply a machine more geared to computer gaming + multimedia facilities. The ps3 was a cheap supercomputer, with a super g parallel cpu, relatively modest gpu, and super expensive blu-ray drive.
I hope the ps4 is still sold at a loss, but is still within my budget.
I think the rumours imply a machine more geared to computer gaming + multimedia facilities. The ps3 was a cheap supercomputer, with a super g parallel cpu, relatively modest gpu, and super expensive blu-ray drive.
I hope the ps4 is still sold at a loss, but is still within my budget.
Even if it's sold at a loss, which I assume in the beginning it will (compensated by the sales of PS3), I expect the gap between retail and production cost to be nowhere near as big as it was with PS3. Plus, I am sure they'll be working to ensure they go from red to black much sooner with PS4.
I am still contemplating whether Sony can afford to stay at 2GB RAM limit if MS indeed has conceded to the demands of Epic.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Same if MS goes for 4 i don't see Sony staying at 2 .
XDR2 was introduced seven years ago in 2005. I think it is safe to assume Rambus has an improved memory design along with other things, just look at the Terabyte Initative with improved signaling. Everything continues to evolve.
I'm a bit skeptical that stacked memory will be "omg awesome" compared to what Rambus may have up its sleeve (XDR3 or whatever).
But then again maybe Rambus is concentrating its efforts on signaling for 3d stacked chips.
Is this from the same person you heard the original WiiU target specs from? Any mention of CPU speed?
Also isn't Jaguar quite a lot weaker than Steamroller?
phosphor112
Banned
XDR3D
=O!
Seriously though, if they can get their magic XDR design to work in 3D, that would be pretty powerful stuff.
bgassassin
Member
How would that be cheaper? That's 8 DDR3 and GDDR5. If they are going with a split pool, it could be a 2GB/2GB (4 DDR3 and 8 GDDR5) or 3GB/1GB (6 DDR3/4 GDDR5). Regardless you're still looking at two memory busses. I think it would be cheaper in the long run for them to R&D 4-Gbit GDDR5 chips and have an 8-chip UMA of 4GB of GDDR5. That way they only deal with one bus as well.
The person I got them from did give me Wii U target specs, but those just reaffirmed what I pretty much already knew and how little Nintendo was giving out at the time. And which CPU speed are you asking about? PS4 or Wii U? For WU Nintendo didn't give clocks.
With the last question, for the most part yes but if that change is true they might be looking at spots to trim some cost and will rely more on the GPGPU and DSPs. IMO at least.
Proelite
Member
4GB DDR3 cheaper than 2GB GDDR5? No?
I thought you meant two pools of 2GB GDDR5 earlier.
Does IdeaMan have any info about Durango, i.e. how many CU does the GPU have and what kind of cores does the CPU have.
I meant CPU speed for PS4. Just trying to get a vague idea how it might compare to WiiU's CPU (yeah I know we don't know its performance exactly but we have a decent-ish idea I think).
Gemüsepizza
Member
If they go for split RAM with DDR3, the number of chips used for DDR3 is imo not really important - they could use slots like the ones you find on a normal PC mainboard, that way they can put any DDR3 module with the right size in there. This would a) save some space, b) gives them more flexibility and c) they can get some nice discount from Newegg. And yes, it would be cheaper: 2GB GDDR5 RAM ~ $26-31, 4 GB DDR3 RAM ~$15-20 (consumer price!).
bgassassin
Member
I don't know if his contacts have access to that.
Last I heard was 3.2Ghz. That was also before the talk about Jaguar.
Gemüsepizza;37645130 said:
Haha, good one.
I was wondering how certain is it that Sony will be sticking with 2GB GDDR5? Does stacking not provide more options?
Is SPU the same as ALU? Not that I know what the latter is...
Because, if I am not mistaken there are 64 stream processors in a single Compute Unit and the rumour so far from Brew_Stain
P) is that GPU in PS4 has 18 CU.And isn't there a difference between SPU and ALU?