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[hiex_]

These weren't petty weed smokers, you know. They were transporting hard drugs.

I guess I'll go a little more hardline; the death penalty for anything is obscene.

 

[Kenshin001]

This seems more your personal crusade against Bryant than a convincing argument for why the finality of the death penalty is not an issue.

I just used Bryant as an example because you said 100% certainty is a pipe dream and the case of Bryant proves that is not true. There are many many cases where it is abundantly clear through overwhelming evidence, witness testimony and the offender's own admission the offender is gullty.

 

[NewGame]

A lot of people here are having a go at Indonesia for this. Have any of you actually been to Bali?

The warning signs are huge and everywhere in the airport. I can't help but sigh and agree with the death penalty, which is harsh but if you brazenly bring illegal and potentially harmful substances into a country with such strict and obvious laws you are just foolish.

 

[Chuckie]

A lot of people here are having a go at Indonesia for this. Have any of you actually been to Bali?

Yeah I have. Have you actually really read the replies? Because not all people are just having a go at Indonesia.

Some are having a go at the death penalty in general
Some are having a go at the fact that some of the convicted actually got a death sentence after an appeal
Some are having a go at the hypocrisy of the Indonesian government of saying foreign governments should stfu about their sentences, yet appeal death sentences of Indonesian citizens in Saudi Arabia
Some are having a go at the fact a mentally disabled got convicted.

 

[krioto]

A lot of people here are having a go at Indonesia for this. Have any of you actually been to Bali?

The warning signs are huge and everywhere in the airport. I can't help but sigh and agree with the death penalty, which is harsh but if you brazenly bring illegal and potentially harmful substances into a country with such strict and obvious laws you are just foolish.

I'm not doubting the veracity of your anecdote, but note they were smuggling drugs out of Indonesia. It's a small point, but you're not the only one to have made this mistake.

 

[yogloo]

I knew right from the beginning that this would not have happy ending. That country has serious problem with corruption, hypocrisy and not to mention, xenophobia. You're especially fucked if you're an Indonesian citizen with foreign heritage. You'll always be an outsider to the locals.

You just described every country in the world. Congratulations.
Good job.

 

[Ganzlinger]

I'm against drug legallization but this is fucked up. Killing someone because they were porting drugs? This is scary, what if someone plants drugs on your luggage or if you take someone's baggage by mistake?

 

[inner-G]

We need to hit them with sanctions or nukes

 

[Host Samurai]

I've been to Bali and it's an incredibly corrupt place. They wouldn't let me through customs unless I gave them $200 for no reason. They looked t my passport and said no, than demanded cash. Fucked up place man.

 

[Darren870]

I'm against drug legallization but this is fucked up. Killing someone because they were porting drugs? This is scary, what if someone plants drugs on your luggage or if you take someone's baggage by mistake?

Then you don't die. Eg: Schapelle Corby. Guilty or not, she is now out on parole.

8.3Kg of Heroin doesn't accidentally get strapped to your body though.

Also the mules (in the Australians case) are the ones spending life in prison. The masterminds/recruiters were the ones that were killed.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Then you don't die. Eg: Schapelle Corby. Guilty or not, she is now out on parole.

8.3Kg of Heroin doesn't accidentally get strapped to your body though.

Also the mules (in the Australians case) are the ones spending life in prison. The masterminds/recruiters were the ones that were killed.

That's less bad

 

[Garuda1One]

That's less bad

We only use capital punishment for mastermind or trafficker here...

if you are a user, then you might be able to get away with rehabilitation and such, a lot of people actually cured from drug addict here in Indonesia..

I lost 3 of my relatives to drugs and HIV and one of my neighbor's son also died from overdose and HIV. When president widodo said that our country is in war with drug, WE ARE in war with drug. The laws are very clear, the message are very clear, total clear.. we will use capital punishment for drug traffickers. I mean, those people bring poison, harmful substance to destroy our youth. 3 of my relatives dead in front of their parents.. Do you people see the hate in their parents eye to those drug trafficker ?, to those who influenced their son ? do you people see the feeling of guilt their parents feel when burying their son ? the feeling of failing to raise a son ?

and people asked us to forgive them ?

do you know last year a drug users drove her car while under the influence of narcotics and crashed hitting children playing football on the side of the road ? do you know how many children died in that accident ?

and yes, i for once, agree with murdoch

 

[SpyGuy239]

We only use capital punishment for mastermind or trafficker here...

if you are a user, then you might be able to get away with rehabilitation and such, a lot of people actually cured from drug addict here in Indonesia..

I lost 3 of my relatives to drugs and HIV and one of my neighbor's son also died from overdose and HIV. When president widodo said that our country is in war with drug, WE ARE in war with drug. The laws are very clear, the message are very clear, total clear.. we will use capital punishment for drug traffickers. I mean, those people bring poison, harmful substance to destroy our youth. 3 of my relatives dead in front of their parents.. Do you people see the hate in their parents eye to those drug trafficker ?, to those who influenced their son ? do you people see the feeling of guilt their parents feel when burying their son ? the feeling of failing to raise a son ?

and people asked us to forgive them ?

do you know last year a drug users drove her car while under the influence of narcotics and crashed hitting children playing football on the side of the road ? do you know how many children died in that accident ?

and yes, i for once, agree with murdoch

As a SE Asian, this argument is very compelling to me. I can't say I support the death penalty fully, but when it comes to Drugs and ruining people's lives, it's hard for me to look away IMHO.

 

[CrunchyB]

Like I stated above, quiet often, these people are essentially drug mules.[...]

The law is draconian and ultimately useless because they're not going to stop anyone.

Yeah, dishing out draconian punishments to the low level drug smugglers won't make much of a difference, other than raising prices on the black market.

They need to go after the big guys. But that takes a lot of time and effort, it's easier to slap some poor sods around who are stupid enough to get caught.

 

[BajiBoxer]

We only use capital punishment for mastermind or trafficker here...

if you are a user, then you might be able to get away with rehabilitation and such, a lot of people actually cured from drug addict here in Indonesia..

I lost 3 of my relatives to drugs and HIV and one of my neighbor's son also died from overdose and HIV. When president widodo said that our country is in war with drug, WE ARE in war with drug. The laws are very clear, the message are very clear, total clear.. we will use capital punishment for drug traffickers. I mean, those people bring poison, harmful substance to destroy our youth. 3 of my relatives dead in front of their parents.. Do you people see the hate in their parents eye to those drug trafficker ?, to those who influenced their son ? do you people see the feeling of guilt their parents feel when burying their son ? the feeling of failing to raise a son ?

and people asked us to forgive them ?

do you know last year a drug users drove her car while under the influence of narcotics and crashed hitting children playing football on the side of the road ? do you know how many children died in that accident ?

and yes, i for once, agree with murdoch

Since you have a more personal stake in this, do you follow the numbers? In your opinion is the war on drugs leading to tangible results?

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

Yeah I have. Have you actually really read the replies? Because not all people are just having a go at Indonesia.

Some are having a go at the death penalty in general
Some are having a go at the fact that some of the convicted actually got a death sentence after an appeal
Some are having a go at the hypocrisy of the Indonesian government of saying foreign governments should stfu about their sentences, yet appeal death sentences of Indonesian citizens in Saudi Arabia
Some are having a go at the fact a mentally disabled got convicted.

It's about blood lust for some people, pure emotion, not thought.

 

[Garuda1One]

Since you have a more personal stake in this, do you follow the numbers? In your opinion is the war on drugs leading to tangible results?

4,5 million drug addicts with almost 1 million unrehabitable.. Thats like.. What ? 20% of our population ? You cant see tangible result in that mind blowing number.. As long as theres supply, there will be demand and vice versa..

And cutting the head of the snake like those who were executed will do little to that number, but the intangible effect i believe is as important..

Like the joker said

No, really.. People here are more aware of drugs, what are they, how dangerous are they, how to protect your children, and such is almost an everyday topic here..

The fact that a lot of people is actually being rehabilitated and succeed gives a shed of light in our little war on drugs. Believe me, we are way more supportive to drug users. We have been sending them to rehabilitation center since the dawn of time and really wanting them to heal..

And then we have the execution.. With the momentum that the media and goverment created before, its more than a message to us or to them..

War on drug is never easy.. Justifying what or who is right or wrong in this war, also will never be easy..

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

Since you have a more personal stake in this, do you follow the numbers? In your opinion is the war on drugs leading to tangible results?

http://m.thejakartapost.com/news/2014/12/10/death-penalty-does-not-deter-drug-traffickers.html (regarding the death penalty and how ineffective it actually is in sending it's medieval "message".

The so-called War on Drugs will always fail(certain people in power will continue patting themselves on the back though, filling those prisons up), corruption will always be a thing and the barbaric, and ripe for false convictions that is capital punishment will continue to not deter crime, and it certainly won't do a damn thing about insanely powerful and rich leading the trade. Instead, the poor are the ones mostly getting fucked, and being a drug mule isn't exactly cut and dry, there can be coercion, lots of misinformation and last minute changes, and a supreme lack of education and knowledge of what exactly the consequences are.

And another link questioning the validity of the drugs stats in Indonesia: http://theconversation.com/indonesia-uses-faulty-stats-on-drug-crisis-to-justify-death-penalty-36512

 

[Entryhazard]

4,5 million drug addicts with almost 1 million unrehabitable.. Thats like.. What ? 20% of our population ? You cant see tangible result in that mind blowing number.. As long as theres supply, there will be demand and vice versa..

And cutting the head of the snake like those who were executed will do little to that number, but the intangible effect i believe is as important..

Like the joker said

No, really.. People here are more aware of drugs, what are they, how dangerous are they, how to protect your children, and such is almost an everyday topic here..

The fact that a lot of people is actually being rehabilitated and succeed gives a shed of light in our little war on drugs. Believe me, we are way more supportive to drug users. We have been sending them to rehabilitation center since the dawn of time and really wanting them to heal..

And then we have the execution.. With the momentum that the media and goverment created before, its more than a message to us or to them..

War on drug is never easy.. Justifying what or who is right or wrong in this war, also will never be easy..

Just vengeful

 

[rrvv]

http://m.thejakartapost.com/news/2014/12/10/death-penalty-does-not-deter-drug-traffickers.html (regarding the death penalty and how ineffective it actually is in sending it's medieval "message".

The so-called War on Drugs will always fail(certain people in power will continue patting themselves on the back though, filling those prisons up), corruption will always be a thing and the barbaric, and ripe for false convictions that is capital punishment will continue to not deter crime, and it certainly won't do a damn thing about insanely powerful and rich leading the trade, Be it Indonesia, or the United states. Instead, the poor are the ones mostly getting fucked, and being a drug mule isn't exactly cut and dry, there can be coercion, lots of misinformation and last minute changes, and a supreme lack of education and knowledge of what exactly the consequences are.

And another link questioning the validity of the drugs stats in Indonesia: http://theconversation.com/indonesia-uses-faulty-stats-on-drug-crisis-to-justify-death-penalty-36512

You can say that the government play around with the research. But is not the point. By sending massage is clear that drug is bad for you on both point of business and the government is serious to stop it.

I mean is probbaly useless at the end but certainly I dont think anything will get better if you simply let it go.

Just vengeful

Honestly I understand his feeling consider I have friend how effected by this.

I mean you can say capital punishment is bad. But is really hard to tolerate with this kind of people

 

[Entryhazard]

Honestly I understand his feeling consider I have friend how effected by this.

I mean you can say capital punishment is bad. But is really hard to tolerate with this kind of people

And this is why the Justice System is designed to be impersonal.

We can understand but we shouldn't be pushed to justify it.

 

[rrvv]

And this is why the Justice System is designed to be impersonal

"Justice" is varied from country to country. For all we know. "Exchange you lives for one that you killed" is can be consider to be as "fair from of justice" in some country.

Whether is morally right and wrong is ofc up to debate and should be review case by case. but there will no exact right and wrong answer

 

[Entryhazard]

"Justice" is varied from country to country.
For all we know. "Exchange you lives for one that you killed" is can be consider to be as "fair from of justice" in some country.

It may very well mean that some countries are just wrong.

Whether is morally right and wrong is ofc up to debate and should be review case by case. but there will no exact right and wrong answer

Some things should just be objective, unnecessary killing should never be justified.

Hope you won't try to stretch "necessity" outside of immediate danger.

 

[Coriolanus]

As long as theres supply, there will be demand and vice versa..

That's... that's not even remotely how supply and demand works.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

Honestly I understand his feeling consider I have friend how effected by this.

It's pure emotion, the last thing you want when life and death policy, when capital punishment, is on the table.

Alcohol, cigs, can be dangerous as fuck, so let's criminalize them, let's prohibit. It worked incredibly well for alcohol back in the day, right?

This shit doesn't work, it never will, and yet certain governments continue on, business as usual.

 

[Oemenia]

Yes, let's go from one extreme to another.

In that case what are you suggesting if you think controlling drugs isn't working?

Honestly if it was any other country, no one would bat an eyelid, but 'dem savages' right?

 

[Garuda1One]

It's pure emotion, the last thing you want when life and death policy, when capital punishment, is on the table.

Alcohol, cigs, can be dangerous as fuck, so let's criminalize them, let's prohibit. It worked incredibly well for alcohol back in the day, right?

This shit doesn't work, it never will, and yet certain governments continue on, business as usual.

i am the one who have pure emotion,, but those in trial ? its the court of law,, not the court of justice..

it will never will work 100%, but letting it go will do no good neither.. hell, we've been capturing murderers, thief and such but they are still out there..

That's... that's not even remotely how supply and demand works.

LOL i know, but you get the idea.. months ago, a drug lord (or a trafficker i forgot), were being interviewed,, he said that the rule of supply and demand in drug world is not that simple.. in one hand we have these drug dealers supplying countless amount of drugs, and in the end of the stick we have the drug addicts, with nowhere to go but to buy these poison.. the demand its always there..

edit : welp, the more i read it the more it looks like a simple supply and demand cycle.. oh well.. lol

 

[yogloo]

It is scary as hell. I traveled through Malaysia two years ago, and in their airport, they play a video that tells you that if someone puts an illicit substance into your baggage without your knowledge--let alone your consent--and you get caught with it, you will be imprisoned or worse.

Like, there's tough, and there's unnecessary brutality, and this kind of thing definitely leans against the precipice between the two.

So in usa or Europe when someone put illegal things in your baggage, if you get caught and can't prove your innocence, you get off free? That's nice to hear.

 

[Chuckie]

i am the one who have pure emotion,, but those in trial ? its the court of law,, not the court of justice..

This doesn't make sense. Especially not considering in Indonesian a court is called a Pengadilan which is based on the word 'adil' which actually means just.

 

[jey_16]

So the Brazilian that was executed was actually mentally disabled? Kind of shocking that they would still kill him

 

[danwarb]

Yeah, dishing out draconian punishments to the low level drug smugglers won't make much of a difference, other than raising prices on the black market.

They need to go after the big guys. But that takes a lot of time and effort, it's easier to slap some poor sods around who are stupid enough to get caught.

Or make changes to society and government so that it doesn't pay, through regulation and welfare.

Wars on drugs get lots of the poorest people killed and addicted.

 

[Garuda1One]

This doesn't make sense. Especially not considering in Indonesian a court is called a Pengadilan which is based on the word 'adil' which actually means just.

dude, im no lawyer, but law simply defines RIGHT or WRONG..

justice is a concept based on equality, just, morality, and such. Justice takes into account the circumstances that surround RIGHT or WRONG. Justice in law system means that the law must be equal for everyone, irrespective of religion, ethnicity, caste, and such.. everyone must have the same right. The word pengadilan / adil as "court" here is literally correct.

And yes there is a differences between Law and Justice, based on that simple concept above.. in this case, it is LAW that is on play, not justice. That is why i said it is the court of law, not the court of justice.

Law doesnt deliver justice all the time, because justice have different meaning to different individual and party and in no way law will be able to accomodate.

again im no lawyer, i learned this simple term from business law 101. My lecturer told us to differentiate between law and justice although the term justice plays a big part in law.

and i dont know whether my explanation above enough to support what i mean or not, but oh well.. correct me if im wrong, which i believe am wrong.

 

[CoolZombie]

It is well known that Indonesia like some other countries have incredibly harsh laws for these crimes.

If you still go to these places and commit these crimes you are responsible for whatever happens as a result.


Personal responsibility is an often neglected concept these days.

I agree with this, at the end of the day whether or not the punishment fits the crime and whether we agree or not, that is the law there and they knew that going in.

 

[Laughing Banana]

This doesn't make sense. Especially not considering in Indonesian a court is called a Pengadilan which is based on the word 'adil' which actually means just.

It fits better to "Judgment" than "Just" actually.

 

[raindoc]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-by-indonesia-was-hearing-voices-all-the-time

Priest who counselled Rodrigo Gularte – who had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and bipolar disorder – says he tried in vain for three days to to explain to the inmate he was about to die

Father Charlie Burrows, a priest who ministers to prisoners in Cilacap, said he had tried in vain to explain to Gularte for three days that he was about to be killed.

“He was hearing voices all the time,” Burrows told Irish radio. “I talked to him for about an hour and a half, trying to prepare him for the execution. I said to him, ‘I’m 72 years old, I’ll be heading to heaven in the near future, so you find out where my house is and prepare a garden for me.’

“But when they took [the prisoners] out of the cells … and when they put these bloody chains on them, he said to me, ‘Am I being executed?’ ” Burrows said.

Help me - is this JUST or RIGHT?

 

[Amir0x]

It's about blood lust for some people, pure emotion, not thought.

As always. Death penalty doesn't work, and yet here we are once again wondering if it's OK to use it. Barbaric. Follow what the evidence shows, not what your lust for blood demands.

 

[Laughing Banana]

There's actually an article where the interviewer talked to one of the guys whose job is to actually shoot the prisoners.

It's quite harrowing to hear his accounts, about how he whispered to the soon-to-be-deceased "Sorry, I am just doing my job..." and stuff like that...

I don't mind translating the whole article to English in here (it's in Indonesian) but I am not sure you guys want to read it, or even if it's allowed....?

 

[Chuckie]

It fits better to "Judgment" than "Just" actually.

You mean adil? No it means just. Tak adil means unjust, it does not mean 'not judgment' (which is not english, I know) It is from the Arab word adil, which means honest/just.

I know you are Indonesian, but in this case it seems you have the wrong translation.

Edit: Or did you mean Pengadilan fits judgment better than just?

dude, im no lawyer, but law simply defines RIGHT or WRONG..

justice is a concept based on equality, just, morality, and such. Justice takes into account the circumstances that surround RIGHT or WRONG. Justice in law system means that the law must be equal for everyone, irrespective of religion, ethnicity, caste, and such.. everyone must have the same right. The word pengadilan / adil as "court" here is literally correct.

And yes there is a differences between Law and Justice, based on that simple concept above.. in this case, it is LAW that is on play, not justice. That is why i said it is the court of law, not the court of justice.

Law doesnt deliver justice all the time, because justice have different meaning to different individual and party and in no way law will be able to accomodate.

again im no lawyer, i learned this simple term from business law 101. My lecturer told us to differentiate between law and justice although the term justice plays a big part in law.

and i dont know whether my explanation above enough to support what i mean or not, but oh well.. correct me if im wrong, which i believe am wrong.

So what you mean to say Indonesian judges simply follow the letter of the law and do not care about circumstances at all? So they are in fact not just. That is a scary system you have there. It does explain the fact they executed a mentally ill man though.

 

[Yagharek]

4,5 million drug addicts with almost 1 million unrehabitable.. Thats like.. What ? 20% of our population ? You cant see tangible result in that mind blowing number.. .

If you can't get basic maths right what hope do you have of making sense of an ethical problem with executing people.

 

[Mr Git]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-by-indonesia-was-hearing-voices-all-the-time



Help me - is this JUST or RIGHT?

Horrible. Just horrible. Really makes you go what the fuck when you consider that Indonesia has let most of the 2002 and 2005 'Bali Bombers' walk free. Cocaine > killing hundreds of people. Apparently.

 

[Jimrpg]

4,5 million drug addicts with almost 1 million unrehabitable.. Thats like.. What ? 20% of our population ? You cant see tangible result in that mind blowing number.. As long as theres supply, there will be demand and vice versa..

And cutting the head of the snake like those who were executed will do little to that number, but the intangible effect i believe is as important..

Like the joker said

No, really.. People here are more aware of drugs, what are they, how dangerous are they, how to protect your children, and such is almost an everyday topic here..

The fact that a lot of people is actually being rehabilitated and succeed gives a shed of light in our little war on drugs. Believe me, we are way more supportive to drug users. We have been sending them to rehabilitation center since the dawn of time and really wanting them to heal..

And then we have the execution.. With the momentum that the media and goverment created before, its more than a message to us or to them..

War on drug is never easy.. Justifying what or who is right or wrong in this war, also will never be easy..

So you are fine with killing another human being then?

People make mistakes dude, why not just lock them away for a very long time, do we have the right to take someone's life away from them?

 

[n64coder]

There's actually an article where the interviewer talked to one of the guys whose job is to actually shoot the prisoners.

It's quite harrowing to hear his accounts, about how he whispered to the soon-to-be-deceased "Sorry, I am just doing my job..." and stuff like that...

I don't mind translating the whole article to English in here (it's in Indonesian) but I am not sure you guys want to read it, or even if it's allowed....?

I would be interested in reading it so it would be much appreciated if you could translate it. Thanks!

 

[rrvv]

Horrible. Just horrible. Really makes you go what the fuck when you consider that Indonesia has let most of the 2002 and 2005 'Bali Bombers' walk free. Cocaine > killing hundreds of people. Apparently.

Drugs killed and ruined more people than bombing

 

[SapientWolf]

A lot of people here are having a go at Indonesia for this. Have any of you actually been to Bali?

The warning signs are huge and everywhere in the airport. I can't help but sigh and agree with the death penalty, which is harsh but if you brazenly bring illegal and potentially harmful substances into a country with such strict and obvious laws you are just foolish.

Like marijuana?

They killed a man over weed.

 

[The Llama]

There's actually an article where the interviewer talked to one of the guys whose job is to actually shoot the prisoners.

It's quite harrowing to hear his accounts, about how he whispered to the soon-to-be-deceased "Sorry, I am just doing my job..." and stuff like that...

I don't mind translating the whole article to English in here (it's in Indonesian) but I am not sure you guys want to read it, or even if it's allowed....?

I'd love to read this. I don't even care about using google translation if you can just post the link.

 

[Chuckie]

Drugs killed and ruined more people than bombing

So you seriously think planning a terrorist attack that kills lots of people is less bad than possessing 50 grams of heroine?

Because one person who did the first got an early release while a person who was guilty of the second got the death penalty.

 

[Novocaine]

Drugs killed and ruined more people than bombing

I don't know if that's true or not, but what I do know is a lot of those life ruining drugs are legally bought over a counter or with a prescription.

 

[frankie_baby]

Drugs killed and ruined more people than bombing

The average death toll from each 50g of heroin will be 0

 

[romulus91]

We only use capital punishment for mastermind or trafficker here...

if you are a user, then you might be able to get away with rehabilitation and such, a lot of people actually cured from drug addict here in Indonesia..

I lost 3 of my relatives to drugs and HIV and one of my neighbor's son also died from overdose and HIV. When president widodo said that our country is in war with drug, WE ARE in war with drug. The laws are very clear, the message are very clear, total clear.. we will use capital punishment for drug traffickers. I mean, those people bring poison, harmful substance to destroy our youth. 3 of my relatives dead in front of their parents.. Do you people see the hate in their parents eye to those drug trafficker ?, to those who influenced their son ? do you people see the feeling of guilt their parents feel when burying their son ? the feeling of failing to raise a son ?

and people asked us to forgive them ?

For one, im sorry to hear the impact drugs has had on your life. Truly I am. May i voice a few criticisms? This "ohhhhhh you know the law" rhetoric needs to stop. Yes, we know they knew the law. The point is that IT IS NOT PROPORTIONAL. Nobody can know the reasons they did what they did. They may have been coerced, they may have been under duress, they may have been desperate. Whatever the reason, the law is completely temporal; a man made construct that accords to the society of the time. It would seem completely ridiculous to stone someone to death for adultery in 2015. And Indonesia themselves dont hold themselves to their own 'letter of the law' standard. Your country has attempted to rescue workers on death row in Suadi Arabia and Malaysia FOR KILLING PEOPLE. Please explain that hypocrisy? It cannot be explained because the death penalty is tribal. The modern legal system is nuanced, we have passed this eye for an eye nonsense. The truth is that the deaths were political. The whole trial and appellant system was a shamble. It took 10 years of imprisonment to reach death. Your own constitutional Chief Justice voiced his concerns that the law was being abused, not to mention fundamental breaches of ratified human right standards. So you cannot claim the importance of adhering strictly to your law when law was definitely not followed.

And where is the humanity? The two australians were some of the best examples of rehabilitation working. They did some great stuff in prison. They sold art, held exhibitions, did some church and charity work. What is the point of prison if not to rehabilitate people for society? What purpose can their death serve? Dont use it for retribution for stuff that has happened personally. They were all sacrifices for political motives. Its extremely saddening and even more so when i hear australians support it.

Look drugs are terrible. But its not a one way transaction. these two were not spiking people to hook them. Their intent was not murder, it was money. If you want drugs, you will get drugs. It is not completely the drug dealers fault that you are addicted; it is caused by societal issues, mental issues, character issues, family issues, pressure, etc. It is just so damn easy to lay blame elsewhere and make scapegoats out of people instead of facing the real issues.

Sorry for the rant