Support NeoGAF

[Yagharek]

One fact many people might not know about the case is that they weren't smuggling drugs into Indonesia. They were smuggling them out of Indonesia and into Australia.

They had been found by the Australian Federal Police who, instead of waiting to pick the smugglers up at Sydney or Brisbane Airport, where they would have faced ~20 year sentences, instead tipped off Indonesian police knowing full well the death penalty could apply.

The previous president in Indonesia imposed a moratorium on executions, and their new president Widodo decides to reinstate it because he is a hateful cunt.

 

[Dryk]

This entire saga has been a farce. Good to see that Australia has recalled its ambassador.

Trying to play hard-ball is how our relationship got this bad in the first place. I don't really see what recalling the ambassador is going to achieve.

Fuck off with that West vs Poor Countries bullshit. I was born and grew up in a country with the death penalty for drug smuggling. It is barbaric. This isn't about Westerners thinking they can walk over other peoples' laws; the death penalty is a terrible and outdated concept that needs to die.

It can be about both. The death penalty does need to die, but Australia also has a problem with assuming that Indonesia will just roll over and grant clemency or extradition whenever one of our citizens gets into trouble.

 

[Arksy]

It can be about both. The death penalty does need to die, but Australia also has a problem with assuming that Indonesia will just roll over and grant clemency or extradition whenever one of our citizens gets into trouble.

We weren't asking for them to be pardoned, I don't think requesting that their death penalties be commuted to life in prison was an unreasonable nor onerous request.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

What if it is against the law to be gay?

But its not so what is your point? That doesn't disprove anything he said.

 

[Dryk]

We weren't asking for them to be pardoned, I don't think requesting that their death penalties be commuted to life in prison was an unreasonable nor onerous request.

No it wasn't, and it probably would've served the prison better to keep them alive and doing good work with the other prisoners. But with tensions as high as they have been and the public and media outcry being as entitled as it usually is I'm not overly surprised that this has happened. The government at least tried to do the right thing, but they've pissed off Indonesia enough I don't think they were ever going to listen.

Would I be wrong in reading this whole affair as a statement of "You are not the boss of us" from the Indonesian government?

 

[leadbelly]

There are so much to say, but the overall thing to come away with from threads like this is how little certain people care about the lives of others or at least how they have resigned to the current reality of it all.

Countries have their own laws that you should be aware of, and honoring those laws in an international political sense is required, but why are we coming at it from that angle? You're not the president of a nation. No one is asking you to send an army in to save one person. Politicians and human rights organizations every day try to counter these laws through diplomatic talks, the changing of hearts and minds, and protest. How is this not the perspective that we all come at it with?

I don't think most people in this thread think the punishment is justified. I'm sure some people on some level empathise with their predicament. It's not really about resigning to the reality of the situation. It's just that you also have to acknowledge that they are responsible for their own actions. It is not clear what the exact reasons were for them smuggling these drugs into the country, but if they did so of their own volition, then they knew exactly what they were getting themselves into.

If someone played Russian Roulette for money, and got themselves killed in the process, then they are responsible for their own death. You can hold that point of view while at the same time not really condoning the sport in any way.

 

[Arksy]

No it wasn't, and it probably would've served the prison better to keep them alive and doing good work with the other prisoners. But with tensions as high as they have been and the public and media outcry being as entitled as it usually is I'm not overly surprised that this has happened. The government at least tried to do the right thing, but they've pissed off Indonesia enough I don't think the were ever going to listen.

Let's be fair for a moment, they executed nationals from about 8 different countries, all of whose governments have been lobbying pretty strenuously for clemency. Regarding our relationship with Indonesia, I don't think it's any one incident by any government that led to this. Remember that our previous government outraged many people in the country by cutting their food supply. I'd say that this was almost entirely due to internal politics in Indonesia, where the new President has a tenuous grip on power and is seen to be weak (or something, I read an article a few weeks ago as to why it's politically impossible for Widodo to take any other course).

 

[Yagharek]

Let's be fair for a moment, they executed nationals from about 8 different countries, all of whose governments have been lobbying pretty strenuously for clemency. Regarding our relationship with Indonesia, I don't think it's any one incident by any government that led to this. Remember that our previous government outraged many people in the country by cutting their food supply. I'd say that this was almost entirely due to internal politics in Indonesia, where the new President has a tenuous grip on power and is seen to be weak (or something, I read an article a few weeks ago as to why it's politically impossible for Widodo to take any other course).

Listen to Arksy people.

 

[DrSlek]

I think the Australian government leaving the requests for clemency until the final few months is kind of crappy. They were sentenced to death in 2006. What was any of our governments going up until this point? Even though the previous president put a moratorium on executions, they still had been sentenced to death. It feels disingenuous to me. It makes me feel like the government focus on this is just an attempt at political point scoring stirred up by the media focus on the matter.

But perhaps I'm just a horrible cynic.

 

[Arksy]

I think the Australian government leaving the requests for clemency until the final few months is kind of crappy. They were sentenced to death in 2006. What was any of our governments going up until this point? Even though the previous president put a moratorium on executions, they still had been sentenced to death. It feels disingenuous to me. It makes me feel like the government focus on this is just an attempt at political point scoring stirred up by the media focus on the matter.

But perhaps I'm just a horrible cynic.

Well....they were sentenced originally in 2006, and the government at the time condemned the sentence, but there were appeals, so many appeals. It would be kind of presumptuous to ask for the president to interfere before the judicial process had even concluded.

 

[Kambing]

So ashamed to be half Indonesian. Hate the way the trials were handled and this seemingly being done as a show of power for the new shit head president.

 

[Raistlin]

Firing squad? What the fuck?

Probably the best method assuming it's done with trained shooters.

 

[Kenshin001]

Anecdotally, my biggest gripe are the number of people who claim "Muslims" should respect Australia's laws and customs, but are then first in line to shout down A predominantly Muslim country for having laws and customs which are foreign to Australia.

Yes. You have a right to disagree. But demanding anything makes you a complete hypocrite and you should stfu.

Also didn't the whole western world just mourn the passing of a Saudi king who oversaw a truly appalling number of inarguably unjust state sanctioned murders?

Whatevs.

The death penalty isn't foreign to Australia. The country abolished the death penalty in my father's lifetime. What is hypocritical is Indonesia having the death penalty while pleading for clemency for its own citizens in Saudi Arabia.

Australians shot themselves in the foot though by criticizing Indonesia as that's only going to make Indonesia more recalcitrant and stubborn. I think Indonesians get a lot of satisfaction in giving Australia the two fingered salute.

 

[Arksy]

The death penalty isn't foreign to Australia. The country abolished the death penalty in my father's lifetime. What is hypocritical is Indonesia having the death penalty while pleading for clemency for its own citizens in Saudi Arabia.

Australians shot themselves in the foot though by criticizing Indonesia as that's only going to make Indonesia more recalcitrant and stubborn. I think Indonesians get a lot of satisfaction in giving Australia the two fingered salute.

I'm sure there are people like that but I don't think that's the overriding reason that events have played out this way. President Widodo made his position clear a long time ago, he genuinely hates drugs and the destruction they've wrought on Indonesian society and will not provide any clemency for cases regarding drug offences.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Let's be fair for a moment, they executed nationals from about 8 different countries, all of whose governments have been lobbying pretty strenuously for clemency. Regarding our relationship with Indonesia, I don't think it's any one incident by any government that led to this. Remember that our previous government outraged many people in the country by cutting their food supply. I'd say that this was almost entirely due to internal politics in Indonesia, where the new President has a tenuous grip on power and is seen to be weak (or something, I read an article a few weeks ago as to why it's politically impossible for Widodo to take any other course).

This is most probably true, especially considering events like the Australian government stupidly threatening to pull off their disaster/social aid funds over this, wtf? How'd you expect Jokowi (or any other sovereign state president) to conform to such request after being threatened like that?

 

[A More Normal Bird]

This is most probably true, especially considering events like the Australian government stupidly threatening to pull off their disaster/social aid funds over this, wtf? How'd you expect Jokowi (or any other sovereign state president) to conform to such request after being threatened like that?

Loathe as I am to defend Abbott, I'm pretty sure his intention when mentioning Australia's aid to Indonesia over the years was to invoke the spirit of co-operation and friendship, not as some thinly veiled threat. The man is just a terrible speaker.

 

[fizzik]

A lot of people with absolute definitions of justice in here. That's healthy.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Loathe as I am to defend Abbott, I'm pretty sure his intention when mentioning Australia's aid to Indonesia over the years was to invoke the spirit of co-operation and friendship, not as some thinly veiled threat. The man is just a terrible speaker.

How come?

It's clear as day that the narrative was "cancel the death penalty or next time your country suffering national disasters, we ain't gonna help you." Even the narrative "hey remember back then we helped those victims of yours during that disaster? time for payback!" does not sound good.

It was so bad that it even prompted Indonesia's VP to comment that Indonesia is ready to return that aid if Australia's intending to use that social disaster aid as a bargaining chip.

Can you imagine Jokowi accepted Australia's request after being treated that way?

That was bad.

 

[Toxi]

A lot of people with absolute definitions of justice in here. That's healthy.

Opposing capital punishment in all instances is healthy.

 

[krioto]

A lot of people with absolute definitions of justice in here. That's healthy.

how is the death penalty ever a good idea? i absolutely oppose it - i don't care what the country's culture/legal system is, its wrong, and barbaric

 

[Jintor]

How come?

It's clear as day that the narrative was "cancel the death penalty or next time your country suffering national disasters, we ain't gonna help you." Even the narrative "hey remember back then we helped those victims of yours during that disaster? time for payback!" does not sound good.

It was so bad that it even prompted Indonesia's VP to comment that Indonesia is ready to return that aid if Australia's intending to use that social disaster aid as a bargaining chip.

Can you imagine Jokowi accepted Australia's request after being treated that way?

That was bad.

Truly, it doesn't really matter what Abbott's intent over those comments were. What's important is the way it played out to the public at large, and the way it played out was as a threat.

 

[numble]

Probably the best method assuming it's done with trained shooters.

They aim for the chest, only 3 bullets are live.

 

[unholyrevenger72]

I'm sorry but they knew the risks of smuggling drugs into a country with tough anti-drug laws, if they were forced to against their will by some drug lord then that sucks. If they did this of their own accord, then I have no pity on them.

Problem is, there's no way of knowing what the circumstances are behind this.

So... Kill'em all and let God sort'em out?

 

[Yagharek]

A lot of people with absolute definitions of justice in here. That's healthy.

A scary number lacking humanity too.

 

[fizzik]

Opposing capital punishment in all instances is healthy.

And what may I ask makes you the moral authority on the matter?

 

[fizzik]

A scary number lacking humanity too.

There's a difference between doing something because you like it and doing something because you believe it necessary. nothing in this world is absolute, and deluding yourself otherwise isn't healthy.

 

[Yagharek]

And what may I ask makes you the moral authority on the matter?

What gives the State (or anyone for that matter) the authority to terminate a persons life?

That's where the moral authority comes from - there is no right to kill.

There's a difference between doing something because you like it and doing something because you believe it necessary. nothing in this world is absolute, and deluding yourself otherwise isn't healthy.

The death penalty is pretty absolute. It doesn't act as a deterrent, it doesn't always get the right person, and is often used against political dissenters. Never mind the fact that drug trafficking isn't serious enough to kill someone.

Capital punishment is abhorrent; as is supporting it.

 

[unholyrevenger72]

how is the death penalty ever a good idea? i absolutely oppose it - i don't care what the country's culture/legal system is, its wrong, and barbaric

So you wouldn't have minded footing the bill for Hitler or Stalin living out their lives peacefully in solitary with all the literature they can read? The death penalty should be reserved for those that have said loud and clear to society through their body count "I do not value any of you"

 

[Yagharek]

So you wouldn't have minded footing the bill for Hitler or Stalin living out their lives peacefully in solitary with all the literature they can read? The death penalty should be reserved for those that have said loud and clear to society through their body count "I do not value any of you"

Godwin's Law.

 

[rrvv]

A scary number lacking humanity too.

What is this "Humanity" you speak of?

 

[Yagharek]

What is this "Humanity" you speak of?

Not killing people (or supporting the killing of people).

 

[A More Normal Bird]

How come?

It's clear as day that the narrative was "cancel the death penalty or next time your country suffering national disasters, we ain't gonna help you." Even the narrative "hey remember back then we helped those victims of yours during that disaster? time for payback!" does not sound good.

It was so bad that it even prompted Indonesia's VP to comment that Indonesia is ready to return that aid if Australia's intending to use that social disaster aid as a bargaining chip.

Can you imagine Jokowi accepted Australia's request after being treated that way?

That was bad.

How come? Because it's Abbott. The man once admitted in an interview that you shouldn't believe anything he says unless he's reading from a carefully pre-prepared statement. Maybe the implication was there in his hamfisted attempt of putting the iron fist in a velvet glove, but it's just as likely that he was just trying his best and failing miserably. However I don't much stock in the reaction from Indonesian politicians because it's in their interest to interpret the comments in the worst possible way.

As it stands Australia has recalled its ambassador and paused ministerial contact; I wouldn't assume that anything more was considered at any point, as even this seems to be a stronger reaction than some were expecting.

Truly, it doesn't really matter what Abbott's intent over those comments were. What's important is the way it played out to the public at large, and the way it played out was as a threat.

I agree, but the poster implied something a whole lot more official than one of Captain Dumbarse's unscripted non-core commitments.

 

[fizzik]

What gives the State (or anyone for that matter) the authority to terminate a persons life?

That's where the moral authority comes from - there is no right to kill.



The death penalty is pretty absolute. It doesn't act as a deterrent, it doesn't always get the right person, and is often used against political dissenters. Never mind the fact that drug trafficking isn't serious enough to kill someone.

Capital punishment is abhorrent; as is supporting it.

well considering Indonesia is a functioning democracy, concensus of the people establishes the moral authority of the government to carry out the death penalty.

But other than that everything else you say is simply opinion. Like it or not there is no absolute moral authority. You could try religious texts but that's a can of worms I don't think you want to get into.

 

[rrvv]

Not killing people (or supporting the killing of people).

And what happend if you have lack of "Humanity"? You become less human? Does this mean you have worse moral standard as normal human?

In fact what do you gain for having more "Humanity"?

 

[Laughing Banana]

I agree, but the poster implied something a whole lot more official than one of Captain Dumbarse's unscripted non-core commitments.

Well, he's the Prime Minister of Australia. One would think it's logical to assume that his words has "official" weight on them.

 

[Yagharek]

well considering Indonesia is a functioning democracy, concensus of the people establishes the moral authority of the government to carry out the death penalty.

But other than that everything else you say is simply opinion. Like it or not there is no absolute moral authority. You could try religious texts but that's a can of worms I don't think you want to get into.

Wrong. The death penalty absolutely does not act as a deterrent. That is a known fact - there is no point in execution bar satiating some barbaric thirst for revenge.

And what happend if you have lack of "Humanity"? You become less human? Does this mean you have worse moral standard as normal human?

In fact what do you gain for having more "Humanity"?

A strange route to argue. All people are equal, but people who support murder really are morally repugnant. I can't argue doing anything to them, but they really are uncivilised, hateful people. That's on them.

 

[fizzik]

Wrong. The death penalty absolutely does not act as a deterrent. That is a known fact - there is no point in execution bar satiating some barbaric thirst for revenge.

Links to independent peer reviewed literature? Because I know for a fact that I am less likely to traffic drugs through Indonesia because of the consequences. I mean it would be unlikely anyway, but once again, absolutes...

 

[Qvoth]

humanity is overrated anyway, don't really see what the big deal is

 

[unholyrevenger72]

What gives the State (or anyone for that matter) the authority to terminate a persons life?

It's a social contract, same as any law. we as a society agree that it's OK to permanently remove some one from society when they have committed sufficient atrocity (sufficient atrocity is subjective to the society. Drug mule-ing in some, mass murder in others). The weight of the execution is carried by society not by single individuals who are representative of society i.e. the judge, jury or executioner. If Society deems the weight of those executions too much they will raise the bar on sufficient atrocities, or be rid of the death penalty all together.

 

[Qvoth]

seems like they already killed the 8, but not the filipino girl

 

[rrvv]

A strange route to argue. All people are equal, but people who support murder really are morally repugnant. I can't argue doing anything to them, but they really are uncivilised, hateful people. That's on them.

Well is nice to think that way. But that kinda naive especially in third world country.It easier for them to conduct clear massage instead doing soft diplomatic talk.

 

[Jintor]

And what happend if you have lack of "Humanity"? You become less human? Does this mean you have worse moral standard as normal human?

In fact what do you gain for having more "Humanity"?

You can Invade and be Invaded, and kindle Bonfires

 

[Extra Sauce]

Drug smugglers are scum.


Drug smuggling carries the death penalty in indonesia.



Many western people think when they get caught committing crimes in a poor country, their embassy will put political pressure on the government and get them released.


The indignation displayed because this pressure didn't work here is pretty entitled. break a countries laws. Pay the price. don't hide behind your perception of "barbaric punishment".

Laws and morality are two different things.

edit: Oops, apologies for the double post.

 

[Extra Sauce]

Lethal Injection is pretty fucked up if you think about it. They're INJECTING the victim with a LETHAL cocktail of chemicals. I mean, that's like how we would envision hostile aliens would kill us right?

Not at all. The way I envision it, don't even think we would understand what is happening as we're being killed. Aliens would not even have to leave their ship. Hell, they might not even have to leave their planet.

 

[Yagharek]

Links to independent peer reviewed literature? Because I know for a fact that I am less likely to traffic drugs through Indonesia because of the consequences. I mean it would be unlikely anyway, but once again, absolutes...

It it was a deterrent then people wouldn't do it.

The onus of proof is on people claiming it does work as a deterrent.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/stu...not-believe-death-penalty-effective-deterrent

 

[Toxi]

Links to independent peer reviewed literature? Because I know for a fact that I am less likely to traffic drugs through Indonesia because of the consequences. I mean it would be unlikely anyway, but once again, absolutes...

The burden of proof in this instance would be to prove the death penalty is a deterrent.

Similar to how the burden of proof would be on me if I claimed the death penalty causes cancer.

 

[unholyrevenger72]

Laws and morality are two different things.

.

Except laws are an averaged expression of morality.

 

[chicko1983]

Sometimes the risk of getting caught, and facing the death penalty, seems less than the risk of not trafficking drugs and then having to deal with those consequences.

There was a case a few years back where an Australian trafficked drugs in a SE Asian country because his brother owed some dealers money and they would hurt his family if he didn't mule for them.

For him, under those circumstances, the risk was worth the reward of protecting his family.

Im not condoning what he did, but that showed me that sometimes people will resort to trafficking drugs for various reasons, even though they may die if they get caught.

Everyone has their price. For some, it is for money, others it is for family, others for their own addiction.

And because everyone has their price, the death penalty will never totally eliminate a crime, it will just drive up the price/reward for people to take the risk.

Governments need to target the manufacturers and be harsher on them, not the mules.

 

[Jintor]

That's a good point. Is the death penalty a good deterrent for manufacturers or suppliers? No, because they don't give two shits about the mules, only the product. Is the death penalty a good deterrent for mules? Yes, but only to a point - that point being 'if I get caught'. Getting caught isn't an absolute. Even when it is, it's not a guarantee - despite what the Indonesian Government says - that you'll actually be executed. And there might be more to gain - monetarily, protecting your family, being threatened into it etc - by 'not being caught' than there is against the risk of 'losing'.

 

[Zakalwe]

I'm sorry but they knew the risks of smuggling drugs into a country with tough anti-drug laws, if they were forced to against their will by some drug lord then that sucks. If they did this of their own accord, then I have no pity on them.

Problem is, there's no way of knowing what the circumstances are behind this.

Appealing a life sentence and being issued a death sentence instead.

Doesn't bother you?