Support NeoGAF

[DrSlek]

Sometimes the risk of getting caught, and facing the death penalty, seems less than the risk of not trafficking drugs and then having to deal with those consequences.

There was a case a few years back where an Australian trafficked drugs in a SE Asian country because his brother owed some dealers money and they would hurt his family if he didn't mule for them.

For him, under those circumstances, the risk was worth the reward of protecting his family.

Im not condoning what he did, but that showed me that sometimes people will resort to trafficking drugs for various reasons, even though they may die if they get caught.

Everyone has their price. For some, it is for money, others it is for family, others for their own addiction.

And because everyone has their price, the death penalty will never totally eliminate a crime, it will just drive up the price/reward for people to take the risk.

Governments need to target the manufacturers and be harsher on them, not the mules.

I sometimes think about that kind of situation, and I always come to the question of "Why not tell the AFP and then request some kind of protection for you and your family?"

 

[chicko1983]

I sometimes think about that kind of situation, and I always come to the question of "Why not tell the AFP and then request some kind of protection for you and your family?"

Would you trust the AFP to be able to protect you and your family indefinitely?

Or, would you trust the bikies or drug dealers to wipe your slate clean if you do what they say?

Im guessing that Chan thought he could trust the bikies over the AFP. Given the ineptitude shown by the AFP in the Bali 9 case, I'd probably side with the bikies as well...

 

[z3phon]

Fuck this. A woman can be legally stoned to death for carrying a mobile phone in Pakistan. Are you ok with that?

He's making the point that the "they knew the laws" justification is bullshit.

This is incredibly sad.

WTF
NO they cannot be legally stoned to death, wheres your source for that BS.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

There's a difference between doing something because you like it and doing something because you believe it necessary. nothing in this world is absolute, and deluding yourself otherwise isn't healthy.

And that's exactly why the death penalty is a terrible idea. If there was one thing I've learned from law school it's that Courts get things wrong. The death penalty prevents Courts from ever rectifying their mistakes.

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

Its a waste of life and a real shame. I hope they died quickly and didnt suffer for long after being shot in the heart.

 

[BowieZ]

It it was a deterrent then people wouldn't do it.

The onus of proof is on people claiming it does work as a deterrent.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/stu...not-believe-death-penalty-effective-deterrent

I would have thought that the death penalty being a deterrent somewhat relies on there being at least 1 death to show that the law is serious, which I'm guessing is Indonesia's whole purpose throughout this debacle. They are hoping of course nobody commits the crime, but now that someone has, they think they kinda have to follow through with the punishment to strengthen the deterrence factor from now on, otherwise there of course is no point to the law in the first place.

Philosophically you may say the burden of proof is on Indonesia before executing the execution, but they would argue the opposite.

Meanwhile, I personally have no sympathy for anyone doing something immoral and knowing the punishment, and then being caught.

(This is different of course to the death penalty for obviously moral behaviour like homosexuality etc.)

 

[Violet_0]

Hypoxia would probably be the most humane. Before you die you feel drunk and euphoric. Some people have issues with this method though, they don't see why a criminal is entitled to a better death than the rest of us.

There's an episode of Horizon about this, it's very interesting.

How to Kill a Human Being

that was quite interesting. Hypoxia does seem to be the front runner for humane killing methods, the symptoms remind me of nitrogen narcosis when diving at depth (e: they actually bring nitrogen up at the end, heh)

 

[Lamel]

Fuck this. A woman can be legally stoned to death for carrying a mobile phone in Pakistan. Are you ok with that?

How did I miss this gem? Where did you even hear that lol?

 

[Phat Michael]

i didnt realise Pakistan now gave the death sentence for female mobile phone users! And the poster said it with such conviction too...

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Fuck this. A woman can be legally stoned to death for carrying a mobile phone in Pakistan. Are you ok with that?

...? Pakistan had a 6 year moratorium on the death penalty and executes less people yearly as a percentage of convictions than the United States does. Hanging is the only legal form of execution.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Fuck this. A woman can be legally stoned to death for carrying a mobile phone in Pakistan. Are you ok with that?

Did you pull this out of your arse?

 

[Kenshin001]

And that's exactly why the death penalty is a terrible idea. If there was one thing I've learned from law school it's that Courts get things wrong. The death penalty prevents Courts from ever rectifying their mistakes.

No it isn't. All that means is that the death penalty should only be given in cases where it is 100% certain the offender is guilty. A lot of death sentences in the US seem to have been based on weak evidence.

 

[NEO0MJ]

There was a case a few years back where an Australian trafficked drugs in a SE Asian country because his brother owed some dealers money and they would hurt his family if he didn't mule for them.

It's a terrible situation, especially because in this case he's suffering for his brother's sins, not his own. But still, why do these people get involved with dealers? Shouldn't the majority by now, especially in developed countries, know that nothing good comes from contact with them?

How did I miss this gem? Where did you even hear that lol?

That poster seems to have a lot of anger and is posting a lot of stuff like that.

 

[Yagharek]

I would have thought that the death penalty being a deterrent somewhat relies on there being at least 1 death to show that the law is serious, which I'm guessing is Indonesia's whole purpose throughout this debacle. They are hoping of course nobody commits the crime, but now that someone has, they think they kinda have to follow through with the punishment to strengthen the deterrence factor from now on, otherwise there of course is no point to the law in the first place.

Philosophically you may say the burden of proof is on Indonesia before executing the execution, but they would argue the opposite.

Meanwhile, I personally have no sympathy for anyone doing something immoral and knowing the punishment, and then being caught.

(This is different of course to the death penalty for obviously moral behaviour like homosexuality etc.)

I want to make it quite clear I'm not equating the two behaviours here, but who is to say drug use is immoral but homosexuality is not? Obviously different beliefs/legal systems define the issues to varying degrees. (For the record homosexuality should be a protected class in that human rights of people should be respected if this is how they are. No-one should be sentenced for being homosexual.)

I personally don't use drugs, but I don't think drug use is necessarily immoral in and of itself. It follows from this logic that supplying a demand for some products is not necessarily immoral - although it is almost always illegal.

However drug use is or should be seen as a health problem; not a criminal one. If you deal with users and demand with appropriate treatment, then people don't need to traffic it through countries that readily abuse human rights like Indonesia.

I think the only consistent stance is to have sympathy for people who get caught doing illegal things who face inhumane and barbaric sentences, regardless of the crime. That is regardless of whether the crime should even be a crime in the first place.

 

[Benzychenz]

I disagree with the death penalty in general, but these guys knew the punishment before they did the crime.

Unless they were forced into doing it (which I don't know one way or the other) they get no sympathy from me.

 

[Kenshin001]

Did you pull this out of your arse?

He's referring to the case of Arifa Bibi who was sentenced to death by stoning by a tribal court in Pakistan.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Shouldn't the majority by now, especially in developed countries, know that nothing good comes from contact with them?

and what if you do one job earn a boatload of cash and get someone you love outta trouble? isn't that 'something good' that came of dealing with someone bad? because thats obviously the temptation especially if you're out of legit options.

fuck the Indonesian government for their backwards stance on human life, pack of worthless savages.

 

[Yagharek]

I disagree with the death penalty in general, but these guys knew the punishment before they did the crime.

Unless they were forced into doing it (which I don't know one way or the other) they get no sympathy from me.

Knowing a punishment exists doesn't legitimise it.

 

[NEO0MJ]

and what if you do one job earn a boatload of cash and get someone you love outta trouble? isn't that 'something good' that came of dealing with someone bad? because thats obviously the temptation especially if you're out of legit options.

fuck the Indonesian government for their backwards stance on human life, pack of worthless savages.

In that case then the person knew they were in a situation where they were likely to die if caught. I find it hard to excuse someone intentionally gets involved in the drug trade to make money, knowing how vile they are.

 

[Laughing Banana]

He's referring to the case of Arifa Bibi who was sentenced to death by stoning by a tribal court in Pakistan.

Was it a state-sanctioned punishment? Meaning the law "women possessing cell-phone is punishable by stoning" is actually a legally binding law in Pakistan?

I am sure the death would be millions already if such a law actually exist legally in Pakistan and we would know about it already.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

No it isn't. All that means is that the death penalty should only be given in cases where it is 100% certain the offender is guilty. A lot of death sentences in the US seem to have been based on weak evidence.

And that's the crux of my argument. 100% certainty is a pipe dream. Even the legal criteria for murder; guilty beyond all reasonable doubt, does not imply 100% certainty.

 

[Kenshin001]

Was it a state-sanctioned punishment? Meaning the law "women possessing cell-phone is punishable by stoning" is actually a legally binding law in Pakistan?

I am sure the death would be millions already if such a law actually exist legally in Pakistan and we would know about it already.

I guess it's like Aceh in your country where there are laws that do not conform to national laws and people can be whipped for homosexuality or zina.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I guess it's like Aceh in your country where there are laws that do not conform to national laws and people can be whipped for homosexuality or zina.

Well, we in here make fun of Aceh too.

 

[Catshade]

A lesser known fact is that Australian Federal Police knew about the drug traffickers. But instead of arresting them at their own soil, AFP let them passed through immigration and tipped Indonesian authorities on their arrival.

 

[Kenshin001]

And that's the crux of my argument. 100% certainty is a pipe dream. Even the legal criteria for murder; guilty beyond all reasonable doubt, does not imply 100% certainty.

100% certainty is not a pipe dream. Look at Martin Bryant. Multiple witnesses, negotiated with police during the murder spree, forensics, pleaded guilty. There is no doubt whatsoever about that one.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

100% certainty is not a pipe dream. Look at Martin Bryant. Multiple witnesses, negotiated with police during the murder spree, forensics, pleaded guilty. There is no doubt whatsoever about that one.

So one individual case, somehow means that Courts are unable to ever make mistakes or wrong decisions? Fuck, why does an appeals process even exist then?

Guess the US was right to imprison or execute all these fellas.

 

[Baki]

It it was a deterrent then people wouldn't do it.

The onus of proof is on people claiming it does work as a deterrent.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/stu...not-believe-death-penalty-effective-deterrent

Lol what a flimsy study.

 

[Seraphiel]

Knowing a punishment exists doesn't legitimise it.

Willfully going to the place and still commiting the crime places the burden of responsibility on the criminal.

Stupid is as stupid does.


Don't want the state to execute you, don't commit crime that leads to execution.

Doesn't get anymore rudimentary than that.

 

[Kenshin001]

So one individual case, somehow means that Courts are unable to ever make mistakes or wrong decisions? Fuck, why does an appeals process even exist then?

That's only one example. There are appeals courts because there is often doubt. Where it can not be proven 100% there shouldn't be the death penalty. I'd have no qualms about the death penalty for Martin Bryant. The guy has tried to kill himself numerous times.

 

[Madness]

You can understand to the concept of imperialism while still criticizing draconian laws in other nations. Death by firing squad for drug smuggling? What does the fact it's Indonesia and it's sovereign laws have to do with anything? We can criticize it if we want. Give them strong jail sentences as a deterrent, but I've always felt the death penalty should be reserved for people who were beyond help or were murderers, killers, terrorists etc.

Those saying, too bad so sad, they knew what the laws were. I guess that means we can't criticize Saudi Arabia for lashing people who criticize Islam, beheading women who have affairs, can't criticize Russia for jailing gay people etc.

 

[Seraphiel]

You can understand to the concept of imperialism while still criticizing draconian laws in other nations. Death by firing squad for drug smuggling? What does the fact it's Indonesia and it's sovereign laws have to do with anything? We can criticize it if we want. Give them strong jail sentences as a deterrent, but I've always felt the death penalty should be reserved for people who were beyond help or were murderers, killers, terrorists etc.

Of course it can be criticised, almost anything can.


The fact is Indonesia doesn't care, they make it abundantly clear what the consequences are and if you fall of them it is of your own making.

Your belief that drug smuggling doesn't warrant the punishment is a personal judgement call, others will have made a different one, drugs kill, especially heroin.


The difference in this case.in comparison to Saudi and Russia is that these people visited the country in knowledge of the potential punishment.

Russia inflicted it upon people who have no choice, they live there, same as in Saudi Arabia.

It is not the same scenario at all.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

That's only one example. There are appeals courts because there is often doubt. Where it can not be proven 100% there shouldn't be the death penalty. I'd have no qualms about the death penalty for Martin Bryant. The guy has tried to kill himself numerous times.

This seems more your personal crusade against Bryant than a convincing argument for why the finality of the death penalty is not an issue.

 

[?oe?oe]

The Australian media loved this story.

 

[Madness]

Of course it can be criticised, almost anything can.

The fact is Indonesia doesn't care, they make it abundantly clear what the consequences are and if you fall of them it is of your own making.

Your belief that drug smuggling doesn't warrant the punishment is a personal judgement call, others will have made a different one, drugs kill, especially heroin.

The difference in this case.in comparison to Saudi and Russia is that these people visited the country in knowledge of the potential punishment.

Russia inflicted it upon people who have no choice, they live there, same as in Saudi Arabia.

It is not the same scenario at all.

Eh, you're right. But I'd like to believe that I'm more correct than others in saying that drug smuggling doesn't warrant death by firing squad for often impoverished drug mules forced to take drugs across. These aren't the evil geniuses behind the operation but honestly sometimes just average folks down on their luck wanting to make cash. Just imagine the sheer number of people who aren't international citizens who are caught smuggling that we don't see/hear about.

My point about the comparisons was that people outside of the country are allowed to criticize the laws, people within countries should be allowed to criticize them as well. Just saying, all those saying Indonesia is free to do what they want, that's not really a good reason to deflect criticism.

Again, you aren't doing shit against drug smuggling killing these people. The drugs are made abroad, financed abroad. More drugs are probably smuggled in on military vehicles, commercial shipments than the guy with a kilo in his stomach etc.

 

[Jintor]

Welcome to Australia's most widely distributed newspaper. Cheers Murdoch.

Fucking murdoch

 

[Renekton]

You can understand to the concept of imperialism while still criticizing draconian laws in other nations. Death by firing squad for drug smuggling? What does the fact it's Indonesia and it's sovereign laws have to do with anything? We can criticize it if we want. Give them strong jail sentences as a deterrent, but I've always felt the death penalty should be reserved for people who were beyond help or were murderers, killers, terrorists etc.

Those saying, too bad so sad, they knew what the laws were. I guess that means we can't criticize Saudi Arabia for lashing people who criticize Islam, beheading women who have affairs, can't criticize Russia for jailing gay people etc.

Anyone is free to criticize draconian law.

Assigning blame for the death is tricky though. Because the smuggler did it knowing full well the risks.

 

[Jimrpg]

I disagree with the death penalty in general, but these guys knew the punishment before they did the crime.

Unless they were forced into doing it (which I don't know one way or the other) they get no sympathy from me.

Sorry, but I don't get this stance at all. Years back, when I was in high school, I felt this way, but to take a human life, no one has the right to do that. Lock them up if you have to, but what gives a government the right to do this? Governments should be protecting all people whether they are foreigners or nationals. We are a global world now and closer than ever, we are all the same. Taking away one life to protect the rest isn't the right way to go about it in this situation. The rest of the world has shown there are a variety of ways to punish people for their crimes. It's just an incredibly lazy way of showing brute force and scare tactics. The more media attention Indonesia gets out of this, the better their death penalty policy works. It's the cheapest way to enforce laws in a country that's rather poor. Why spend millions on extra police and security to check bags at the airport, when you can put a death sentence policy in place and have Australian cops tip you off?

Living in Malaysia right now, there's so many differences in laws and cultures to where I used to be in Australia. Everything from food to lifestyle to religion to money to education. For example no one wears a seat belt here (94% don't to be exact vs 92% who do in Australia), so its like well why not, its there isn't it, but they like their kids to move around in the backseat. I could tell them all day long that its not safe even at 60km/h but it just wouldn't register.

 

[Producer]

Thats the law in that country. Dont try to smuggle shit in there and you wont have a problem.

 

[jts]

Thats the law in that country. Dont try to smuggle shit in there and you wont have a problem.

No one is saying this is unexpected though.

Just that the law in that country is atrocious. And barbaric. And inhumane. And ultimately disgusting middle age kind of shite.

Which is fair.

 

[Yagharek]

Lol what a flimsy study.

Anecdotal evidence is enough. People keep committing these crimes despite the well known death penalty in force. It doesn't stop anyone.

 

[Madness]

Like I stated above, quiet often, these people are essentially drug mules. Conned, tricked, or forced into taking drugs into the countries. For large scale drug traffickers, they don't care if 8 pellets in a man's stomach get dumped and he gets jailed or killed. They'll find some other sap to do it.

The law is draconian and ultimately useless because they're not going to stop anyone. Junkies in the country will still commit crimes and pay to support their addictive habit, most drugs will still be smuggled through military or commercial transport. Think about how many containers, trucks, planes, suitcases, packages with drugs make it across. What will killing the poor woman who probably has a family back home do? Quite often these people are poor and uneducated, they don't know what they're getting into.

 

[Ikael]

I don't know about the specifics of each case (the mentally disturbed guy and the girl seems that they were tricked into becoming mules, rather than be willing on their own volition), but they have broken a law, by comitting a crime with real victims here. This ain't comparable with consuming drugs. They were trafficking with drugs. They knew they were doing something objectively harmful that goes well beyond being a "moral" crime (there are victims for this) in a country with very harsh punishment for these type of offenses.

No, I don't support death penalty at all, and I think that Indonesia ought to rethink much of their anti-drug laws, but what were they expecting exactly? Would have they been trafficking drugs in your country, woud you be pleading for their mercy too?

 

[samar11]

I hear news about people being jailed for x amount of years, and the case was bought up again and they were found not guilty. Now if that person got the death penalty after the new evidence..

 

[munchie64]

The biggest problem I have with this is that it took 2 Australians being killed for anyone to give a shit and start actually thinking about the death penalty.
Has anyone talked about the mentally ill guy?

 

[hiex_]

Drug smugglers are scum.


Drug smuggling carries the death penalty in indonesia.



Many western people think when they get caught committing crimes in a poor country, their embassy will put political pressure on the government and get them released.


The indignation displayed because this pressure didn't work here is pretty entitled. break a countries laws. Pay the price. don't hide behind your perception of "barbaric punishment".

That is a barbaric punishment. Different culture/government or no, killing people for fucking drugs is obscene. Indonesia sucks, and so does every other place like it.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

No, I don't support death penalty at all, and I think that Indonesia ought to rethink much of their anti-drug laws, but what were they expecting exactly? Would have they been trafficking drugs in your country, woud you be pleading for their mercy too?

I wouldn't have to cause my country hasn't practiced capital punishment since 1910.

 

[Hyun Sai]

Many people consider locking someone for life (and all the shit that happens there) a far more cruel punishment than killing them. I can understand this sentiment.

I'm against death penalty only because there is nothing you can do if the person executed was in fact innocent.

 

[NEO0MJ]

That is a barbaric punishment. Different culture/government or no, killing people for fucking drugs is obscene. Indonesia sucks, and so does every other place like it.

These weren't petty weed smokers, you know. They were transporting hard drugs.

 

[li bur]

Well, some of the drug dealers in Indonesia are able to coordinate drug smuggling and productions even when they are inside the jail. No wonder the govt thought that death sentence is the only way to deal with them.

 

[Chuckie]

These weren't petty weed smokers, you know. They were transporting hard drugs.

Not all of them. One only had 50 grams of Heroin in his apartment, the other was a technician/engineer working on machines in a drugs lab.

On top of that we have a person that is mentally disabled and a few appeals which changed the punishments from 15 years in prison into death.

Well, some of the drug dealers in Indonesia are able to coordinate drug smuggling and productions even when they are inside the jail. No wonder the govt thought that death sentence is the only way to deal with them.

Yeah but those are probably the ones who paid off officials so they won't get a death penalty.