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Indonesia executed 6 drug convicts in death row (5 foreigner)
- Thread starter fertygo
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Yaphett Kotto
Member
What are your thoughts on Uganda executing gay people? Should they forfeit their lives because they knew the consequences and shouldn't have been gay?
A lot of media over here use the word 'allegedly' in combination with the Dutchmans involvement with producing XTC. Also, the word involvement. What does that mean? It's like they don't know any details, yet he's brought to dead. I really can't wrap my head around the fact that people actually support this.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
I say a firing squad for everyone employed at Coors.
I'm not for execution, but that's a poor argument. A sexual orientation is not comparable to trafficking heroine. At a minimum, sexuality, in most circumstances, isn't a choice.
spons
Gold Member
People use the same reason to be against gays, guns, transvestites and cartoons of Mohammed.
In other words, "I don't like it/them so just get rid of it/them". Despicable. Absolutely no sense of what personal freedoms are. Choice or no choice, people should really just do whatever the hell they want as long as it doesn't affect others.
It makes it easier to oppose the punishment if you throw in words like 'allegedly' so it looks like they might be innocent. The public at large is less likely to support the government trying to get him released if they were to state he was a drugs trafficker caught with a huge amount of drugs. Right or wrong, it is just a part of the media strategy from the lawyer.
Broder Salsa
Banned
Yeah that must be it. Execute everyone who even touches drugs.
You should talk to Colombians and Mexicans about how the drug trade has wrecked their countries.
Yaphett Kotto
Member
But by his logic, gay Ugandans should leave the country or accept their fate since they know the law.
The Lamonster
Member
This is barbaric.
You can't extrapolate that from what I said. I simply pointed out that you made a false equivalence.
Or are you trying to say that the fundamental characteristic of being a homosexual is the same as that of a heroine trafficker?
I don't know where you're from but over here we have freedom of press. And journalists who don't just write up what a lawyer is telling them. I remember Joran van der Sloots lawyer had some pretty smooth talks too, but it's not like the press reported that as being the truth. They investigate the facts and report the news as they see fit. And sadly about the Dutchman involved in all this I can't find much at all about his exact wrongdoing. Except for involvement with the production of XTC. Which can be all kinds of things.
Have to add that it varies per newspaper, they don't all use the word allegedly. But none of them seems to know what involvement exactly means.
fuzzyreactor
Banned
Fuck drug traffickers.
awful
are you arguing that drug trafficking should be punished by death in general, or that they deserve to be executed because they broke the law in this country and you don't see anything wrong with it?
Coriolanus
Banned
Drug trafficking has wrecked their countries.
Hard to find examples of countries in recent history with legalized, regulamented drug trade where it has considerably negatively affected the population.
What we can say for sure is that the american states that legalized pot are doing ok, as are the Netherlands. And Uruguay.
Drugs are prohibition 2.0. Nothing new there, just waiting for the world to come to terms with it.
And these executions all deal with foreign traffickers, operating in a country with established laws against drug trafficking, not users.
So what's the outrage about, exactly?
I'm guessing this stance towards drugs is common throughout Southeast Asia. I knew about Singapore but I didn't know about Indonesia.
So what's the outrage about, exactly?
I'm guessing this stance towards drugs is common throughout Southeast Asia. I knew about Singapore but I didn't know about Indonesia.
They don't have to listen to the lawyer, but they don't have to try and get more information from Indonesia either. It is quite different from the Van der Sloot process which was very much mediatized from the very beginning. I can read for instance the most recent article from AD that has reactions by the lawyer and Dutch politicians. The Indonesian reaction they have is something they got from a newspaper. So yes, you have freedom of press. That doesn't require the press to do actual work. You should try and see how many newspaper articles only have one of two views represented. As for what he did wrong, he ran a factory producing XTC according to the Volkskrant.
The outrage is about the death penalty being used at all.
And that's a fair point to debate.
But a good portion of the posts in this thread are clearly talking about something else, generally towards the tune of "drugs aren't bad, they're not hurting anybody".
Yaphett Kotto
Member
No I was giving my reasoning to why I said what I said, but now that you pointed it out, I sound naive as hell.
Thanks for that article. I had a hard time finding good press on it that date back to the days of his trial. At least an article that makes clear for which crime he's being trialed. And apparently his case was actually more similar to Van der Sloot than I intended to make a comparison with. As for the big media circus surrounding it. Also a case you and I will never know the whole truth about sadly. I get our media are more likely to spin it in a positive way as possible and in Indonesia they do it the other way around.
The case here was never much mediatized before the punishment. Van der Sloot was writing books before he was convicted, there were TV specials about the murder. A lot was shown from the part of the victim, the trial. It is very different from this case. As for the truth, it would be nice if papers actually tried to get court documents or comments from anyone involved in Indonesia from that side. The fact they didn't even bother to give more information about what he did - in an article easily found via Wikipedia - shows a lot. But I easily get annoyed at newspapers, I mostly read them for sports nowadays. I can be sure they are at least showing two sides there.
I don't want to end up in a 'welles-nietes' debate here, but the article you linked clearly says it was one big media circus leading up to his punishment:
It even goes as far as saying that the media attention almost made it inevitable that he would get the death penalty. And they nick-named him Ectasy-King during the trial. That surely makes good headlines.
cpp_is_king
Member
He didn't ask for yet another random internet opinion. He asked if there were studies about it.
Yoda
Member
Fuck drug traffickers.
Execution for people who didn't kill anyone themselves? Or are you going to give me one of those "but he is complicit is the death of so and so? If you follow the latter line of logic we ought be executing for quite a few more crimes.
CornBurrito
Member
Are they being executed for drug use or drug trafficking?
I'm summing up the articles.
CornBurrito
Member
Does this include prescription drugs?
cpp_is_king
Member
He probably meant drugs that have no known or accepted medicinal value
Some countries just have a very backwards justice system. It's a good thing this case catches wind worldwide. Though it's almost hopeless to think things will ever change in some countries.
CornBurrito
Member
Given what I know about him, i don't agree with your assessment. He is probably strongly against marijuana despite its known medical value for example.
I'm not talking about this case specifically, just in general. I agree, in this instance, the death penalty is absurd.
Some don't see it that way. Some don't see it as state sanctioned murder but as justice, a means of detterence and, though the law shouldn't be punitive, retribution on behalf of the victim. Like I said, I see merit to both sides of the argument, but I have yet to notice anyone insulting anti death penalty posters.
And you have no way of expressing this in any other way than generalising and insulting people that disagree with you?
Disregarding for a moment that that couldn't be further from the truth... a lack of emotional sentiment behind arguments is ideal as that would correlate to less reactionary response and a more collected approach to the debate. But, okay, whatever.
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
Then there's the fact a lot of the other no-no drugs like LSD and morphine have documented medicinal purposes.
Like what drugs? Almost all drugs have a medicinal value.
Yeah not accepted but that's because they are illegal.
It's all a bunch of BS and a big money making scheme for those in the drug war industry.
Regret Upon Approval
Member
Lets start with the drugs actually central to this discussion noted in the OP.
Cocaine and heroin.
Edit
Tell me about their medicinal value and how the drug war industry is keeping them away as your post seems to suggest.
Cocaine and heroin are extremely obvious examples since they themselves started as medicine.
The first for local anesthesia and heroin for pain relief and surpressing cough.
Both are not used in general medicine anymore, mostly because of the drug war. Why use morphine when you can use the better working heroin? It's ridiculous.
cpp_is_king
Member
Maybe because alternatives have less potential for abuse and/or the effects of abusing them are less severe.
Fear of abuse (from medicine) comes hand in hand with fear of general abuse, which is shown in the current policy.
Cocaine used for anesthesia has little danger for abuse (though also has alternatives) and heroin's potential for abuse is greater simply because it's a better medicine.
Especially the way that heroin crosses the blood-brain barrier makes it's pain relief quicker but also gives a 'rush'. As long as it's regulated as morphine now though, what's the hold-up in using it? Apart from the rush, they give nearly the same high (see regular Pepsi versus Pespsi MAX). It isn't like people are going to rob hospitals all of a sudden.
while not exactly the same substance, cocaine and Ritalin have the same effect on our brain and their chemical structure is similar
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/addiction/ritalin/
I didn't learn this until recently, but my grandfather had to have surgery in the 50s for some sort of ailment and they gave him morphine after the surgery to help with any pain he might have. He was addicted to the stuff for a decade after that. He was not a weak man, didn't have an addictive personality.
My point is that both legal and illegal drugs can be dangerous and addictive. Just because they're legal, doesn't make them somehow "good".
Daniel Jackson
Member
Here in the Netherlands the Dutch man was on the news a lot of course. On a diplomatic level they've tried everything. Even our king himself and the prime minister have asked to stop the execution. The Dutch ambassador in Indonesia has been recalled and the Indonesian one here has been summoned to the ministry of foreign affairs.
Which will result in nothing most likely. They just give zero fucks. And the previous times we've had ambassadors called up we didn't leave much of an impression either. We should just cut all ties with Indonesia and leave it at that. If all countries that oppose the death penalty would do so this business would stop. Sadly reality isn't that simple.
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