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[Jado]

First it's like we want more gay characters. Now it's why is he gay? Just made your mind up LGTB community.

Lucien Soulban, Lead Writer at Ubisoft Montreal: doesn't expect gay protagonists soon

When asked if he expects a gay lead in AAA games anytime soon, Soulban, was less positive. "Oh boy. I think the real question is, 'When are going to get a gay/lesbian AAA hero(ine) who isn’t a one-off joke?'

Despicable, hated villain in Far Cry 4 possibly gay, will likely meet his end beaten/shot/killed at the player's hands.

GAF reaction: LOL whats the problem u wanted more gays in games rite, LGBT community?!?!?

You guys are so fucking obtuse.

 

[ab.aeterno]

First it's like we want more gay characters. Now it's why is he gay? Just made your mind up LGTB community.

I'm asking the rest of the collective what they want, but the hive mind can be slow sometimes.

 

[Nymphae]

When it was revealed during the

Spoiler

Left Behind DLC

that

Spoiler

Ellie

was not straight

You spoiler tagged where the spoiler came from?

 

[DedValve]

No. Here's what I am concerned about though.

I posted it in the Ubisoft thread but it got buried, or people don't give a hoot about Ubisoft:

He had asian features before. If anything he just looks younger. Besides promotional artwork doesn't always translate perfectly to the 3D models.

 

[Jado]

I'm asking the rest of the collective what they want, but the hive mind can be slow sometimes.

C'mon. Just use your offcial LGBT communication implant to patch a signal through to the millions.

 

[ZServ]

Actually, did anyone look at the art? Doesn't the ear piercing in only the left ear sort of imply he's *not* gay? Real question here, but when I was younger I was told "boys get left ear or both ears pierced, girls get both or right ear." Now, I was like 5 so that was more of an approximation for sexual preference I'm assuming than my mom being .. anti-gay? or something? So, I'm gonna go with "he's just stylish."

 

[Qassim]

Why don't people know how to use spoiler tags properly? You can't just spoiler tag something but not tell us what it is supposed to spoil - because the only way you can find that out is if you click on it - and then if it was something you didn't know about, spoiled!

 

[Ominym]

They look like two different people to me, honestly, whether it was changed or not.

Uh... what?

Differences in angles, lighting, animation. Not to mention it's not always possible to translate art 100% to 3D models?

 

[spirity]

In answer to the OP's question, no I am not concerned. I just want to shoot fools and blow shit up. I don't care if they're gay, straight, lesbian, bisexual or whatever else there is. I'm not interested in contemplating real world issues in a video game. I guess maybe I don't really take games seriously. Well, I'm quite happy about that.

 

[Fatal Futanari]

You're not the only one doing it, but that doesn't mean you're not doing something both unproductive and, iirc, skirting the rules on thread whining.

And this thread isn't whining, it's putting forth concerns and arguments. Agree with it or not, it's not whining to say "hey this might be problematic."

I understand that the OP has two concerns: stereotypes and what they might lead to. However, he used stereotypes to even assume the guy was gay. There isn't even much info on the story or the game yet. He seems like he is reaching, imo. As for what they might lead to (ie hate, bashing, etc), *shrugs* unfortunately there are ignorant and stupid people out there. There will always be some like this, regardless of race, sexual orientation, sex, etc. Back when GTA V came out I over heard a guy said he went around a killing latinos looking NPCs because "fuck those wet backs".

There will be LGBT chars (both villains and heros) in AAA games (this is linking back to the other thread the OP). I believe the growing pains (aka early development) for some developers will be the use of stereotypes. Of course, that should go away with progress.

Give me a break, you're not seriously arguing this, are you?

Give me a break, can't you see I'm just making an assumption, just like the OP did. The point of the post was that NOBODY KNOWS YET!

Random tidbit: The guy looks and acts like a psycho badass to me.

 

[BananaSprinkles]

No. Here's what I am concerned about though.

I posted it in the Ubisoft thread but it got buried, or people don't give a hoot about Ubisoft:

The eyes look the same. The nose looks the same. The mouth looks the same. The ears look the same. The cheek bones look the same. It looks like the exact same guy to me. The only difference is one is a flat 2D image while the other is a 3D character model.

Edit: Actually, the hair color is different, though that could be based on lighting or something.

 

[Masquerader]

Can I just say... He looks like a really, really good villain. Very polite, for someone who stabbed his goon in the throat a few times for shooting a bus instead of stopping it. I could not give a flying fart about his sexuality~

 

[sjay1994]

I'm more annoyed at another mighty whitey story

But he's not white though.

He's apparently from that village, and returned back to scatter his mothers ashes.

 

[GladiatoR]

He had asian features before. If anything he just looks younger. Besides promotional artwork doesn't always translate perfectly to the 3D models.

This. Some of you lot need your eyes checking because your eyesight is genuinely awful. He 100% looked Asian in the original promo art. Unless of course, you want to see things to suit your point of view perhaps? I dunno.

 

[psylah]

No. I'll wait until it's released. I'll wait until I've played it. I'll wait until I can form my own opinion given the context of the story.

Because I owe the writers that much, the benefit of the doubt that they are able to construct a complex and interesting character, instead of projecting my fears and prejudices and preconceived notions onto something I know so very little about.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

No. Here's what I am concerned about though.

I posted it in the Ubisoft thread but it got buried, or people don't give a hoot about Ubisoft:

Looks the same to me.

 

[midasmulligan]

Sooooo you massively stereotype the villain based on dress, ect. in the first sentence, then spend the next 5 paragraphs of the op lamenting the use of stereotyping in video games. Yikes...the circular argument in the op has my head spinning

 

[Mooreberg]

A lot of assumptions about the villain based on stereotypes.... from somebody that dislikes stereotypes.

 

[dancingphlower]

Based on the info from the newest issue of Game Informer, I can tell you that he's definitely not gay.

 

[mindsale]

Isn't it marginalizing a subculture further by limiting their representation altogether? Eventually won't it come to the point where if we're presented with a gay character in a game we know s/he'll have to fill an auxiliary role? It's like when I see a child in a game, I know they can't be harmed. Soon when I learn a character's gay, I know they won't betray me or turn out to be the villain. Let's just disable crosshairs when you so much as point a reticule at a character prior to discerning her sexual orientation.

 

[Alfredo]

I think he's got a cool character design (ripe for cosplay potential).

I have no idea if he's gay or not. Doesn't really matter to me.

I can't control how other people will view a gay villain, and it's sad that creators would have to be limited because of the potential bigots that would play their game. But I guess that's a social responsibility that the creators have to be aware of, and hopefully they are aware of it.

 

[royalan]

Well, as a homosexual myself I understand the OP's concerns. And they are legitimate concerns (so let's not pick the OP apart on technicalities). It's a well known fact: when it comes to geek culture (videogames, comics, anime especially), there's a history of portraying homosexual men as extreme versions of the flamboyant stereotype and relegating them to the role of villain or clown. It does become a little offensive when queer representation can be boiled down to pretty much just this (and let's not forget the sexy male-gaze lesbian portrayals that run rampant). There's a very real history of this shit, so I understand the OP.

That said, I'm going to take the "wait and see" approach. Far Cry's villain could turn out to be a very flamboyantly gay man, but if they flesh out his character and give him history and depth, so that he isn't JUST "flamboyantly gay" then I won't mind the representation. We gays can't forget that there ARE flamboyant gays out there, and they deserve representation too. Oftentimes, when we lobby for more queer representation in media, we tend to fall into a place where we only want to see "the best of us" represented, which is really a form of queer erasure in itself. There's nothing wrong with Far Cry 4's villain is flamboyantly gay; the problem only arises if that's all there is to him.

 

[funkypie]

Yep, totally making that up.

I think it says a hell of a lot about you to think the worst of someone you disagree with and not take the time to Google for yourself before being an asshole and insinuate they made it up.

wow damaging article indeed, makes the OP more genuine to say the least. Nothing about a few people doing this in an open world game reinforces the OPS ridiculous assumptions.

 

[Zakalwe]

No. I think oddly enough by having the antagonist *possibly* be gay, it means that the character will be featured in a way that makes him a more well rounded, more fully developed character than just a one-off NPC or even a relatively bland main character (like in FC3). The solution to combatting homophobia isn't restricting the ways in which gay characters can be depicted, but rather in making sure that in whatever role they play (good, bad, hero, villain) they are defined by more than just their sexuality.

The villain in FC3 (not the final villain, but the one on the cover) was considered one of the more interesting, memorable and "cool" characters in the game. If they do the same thing with this character (again, who may or may not be gay), I think it could actually end up being a good thing. Idiots may confuse his evil goals with his sexuality, but those morons will have a bias anyway. If he's written well, the rest of us may easily end up seeing his homosexuality as just another one of the several characteristics that define this interesting character.

Good post. Absolutely agree.

 

[ab.aeterno]

I understand that the OP has two concerns: stereotypes and what they might lead to. However, he used stereotypes to even assume the guy was gay. There isn't even much info on the story or the game yet. He seems like he is reaching, imo. As for what they might lead to (ie hate, bashing, etc), *shrugs* unfortunately there are ignorant and stupid people out there. There will always be some like this, regardless of race, sexual orientation, sex, etc. Back when GTA V came out I over heard a guy said he went around a killing latinos looking NPCs because "fuck those wet backs".

There will be LGBT chars (both villains and heros) in AAA games (this is linking back to the other thread the OP). I believe the growing pains (aka early development) for some developers will be the use of stereotypes. Of course, that should go away with progress.


Give me a break, can't you see I'm just making an assumption, just like the OP did. The point of the post was that NOBODY KNOWS YET!

Random tidbit: The guy looks and acts like a psycho badass to me.

What I was trying to get at was that effectively saying "not this shit again" doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. But this post lays out what you think and why, and gives fodder for thought and discussion. It's a good post. If we had more like this and less asking why we have another thread about LGBT issues gaming, the thread would be better for it.

I like the villain, by the way. So far he seems like an interesting character. I'm actually of the "wait and see" approach because it's too early to try and surmise anything, and execution matters. If he turns out to be a collection of cheap stereotypes, then I'll have issues.

 

[Woo-Fu]

But he's not white though.

He's apparently from that village, and returned back to scatter his mothers ashes.

Well then that could make him the stereotypical twinkie/banana. We'd still be able to have this thread, it'd just be a different set of concerned people though presumably there would be some overlap between the sets.

 

[Akainu]

Art work no translating to the game proper isn't anything new.

 

[Five]

The promo/cover art and the in-game model look slightly different to me. They both look eurasian, but the in-game model looks like it was tweaked to better match Troy Baker's facial structure, which might be to help the facial animation display better.

If anything, it's kind of strange that Baker's played two not-white but seriously they're white characters in a row, coming hot off the heels of playing Delsin.

He doesn't seem gay to me. I mean, he's got kind of a bromance going on with the main character, but so what? Drake and Sully had a bromance going on. Lots of completely straight dudes have bromances.

And appearing metrosexual does not a gay person make. This isn't even a sissy villain, best as I can tell. If you're young and have a lot of money, you're going to dress to the tens and be trendy.

 

[gogosox82]

While I can agree with the op, I don't think he will be gay, just really flamboyant and eccentric which may play into negative stereotypes about gays which is something I think we can address. Is there a way to make really compelling characters (whether they be the lead or villains) and not use stereotypical mannerisms that are associated with a certain group of people? I think its a really difficult thing to balance but I think its something that developers have to think about when they are going about developing a character.

 

[d9b]

Despicable, hated villain in Far Cry 4 possibly gay, will likely meet his end beaten/shot/killed at the player's hands.

GAF reaction: LOL whats the problem u wanted more gays in games rite, LGBT community?!?!?

You guys are so fucking obtuse.

Wait... You are judging, labelling and assuming based on the main villain's fashion sense and we are obtuse? Stop putting people in little boxes with labels on them. Please understand....
I see him as flamboyant, eccentric and definitely sociopath. Gay never entered equation for me. Also...With whom he prefers to share his bed at night is of no concern of mine.

 

[Sai-kun]

Wait... You are judging, labelling and assuming based on the main villain's fashion sense and we are obtuse? Stop putting people in little boxes with labels on them. Please understand....
I see him as flamboyant, eccentric and definitely sociopath. Gay never entered equation for me. Also...With whom he prefers to share his bed is of no concern of mine.

Your original post is still awful.

 

[d9b]

Your original post is still awful.

If it did come across that way, I apologise.

 

[Jado]

Wait... You are judging, labelling and assuming based on the main villain's fashion sense and we are obtuse? Stop putting people in little boxes with labels on them. Please understand....
I see him as flamboyant, eccentric and definitely sociopath. Gay never entered equation for me. Also...With whom he prefers to share his bed at night is of no concern of mine.

Wait... no.

I'm not saying the villain is definitely gay. I'm saying that a possibly gay villain who is a despicable person, in an industry with very few admirable gay heroes and supporting characters to provide balance*, may not be the smartest choice in helping the immature gaming community warm up to the idea of gay people being a normal, common occurrence in video games. Fighting a unnoticeably straight male villain character is a non-issue compared to asking gamers to beat up and kill a gay man (assuming that's the case in FC4).

*I wouldn't even be posting in this thread if an abundance of normal gay people in video game plots were the norm in video games today.

Keep jumping from one strawman to another in a failed attempt to dismiss a bigger discussion beyond your understanding.

If it did come across that way, I apologise.

It's not "how it came across." Your post was just plain stupid.

 

[Enthus]

I'm going to laugh so hard if the next trailer has him flirting around with a woman on each arm or something like that.


But then it would be a different complaint, so I hope he is asexual.

 

[Delusibeta]

Jumping To Conclusions: The Thread 2: Revengence.

I'll laugh if it turns out that the main villain is straight and the OP winds up looking very silly.

 

[d9b]

Wait... no.



Keep jumping from one strawman to another in a failed attempt to dismiss a bigger discussion beyond your understanding.

And now you will add complementary insult spiced with condescending tone. Bravo Jado! That's the way to have a serious discussion. Let me find a slow clap gif and I'll get back to you.

 

[Lizardus]

Your original post is still awful.

No more awful than OP who just assumed that purple clothes and certain hairstyle = Gay. What was this thread about again? Something about stereotypes?

 

[Jado]

No more awful than OP who just assumed that purple clothes and certain hairstyle = Gay. What was this thread about again? Something about stereotypes?

If you're gonna reduce his entire post down to that simplistic argument (which I don't even think was his intended meaning), then you're basically ignoring 95% of what he said and not attempting to engage in a meaningful discussion.

 

[stupei]

Stereotypes are not "good" or "bad." They are just damaging. Gay people being homicidal maniacs isn't even a stereotype!

Brutal characters in fiction also being flamboyant to hint at further "deviance" (shock gasp they murder people and ALSO SLEEP WITH MEN) is totally an archetype.

In fact for a very long time, that was really the only depiction of homosexuality available in media.

I think there are a lot of potentially problematic and worrying things in this game, but I'm not exactly surprised given the uncomfortable white savior stuff in the last one. I'll probably still end up buying it, but I don't understand the impulse so many people have to shut down discussion or talk about how eager they are to laugh at someone else for "assumptions." What exactly is this forum for if not discussion? Are we only here to applaud and repeat the same compliments ten people said before you about a new trailer?

 

[Kinyou]

Yeah.... this is way too early to get worried about that. And I don't think there's even a problem with having a gay villain as long as he doesn't use his sexuality too threaten the player.

The show Dexter had a pretty cool villain character who also just happened to be gay.

 

[DedValve]

No. I think oddly enough by having the antagonist *possibly* be gay, it means that the character will be featured in a way that makes him a more well rounded, more fully developed character than just a one-off NPC or even a relatively bland main character (like in FC3). The solution to combatting homophobia isn't restricting the ways in which gay characters can be depicted, but rather in making sure that in whatever role they play (good, bad, hero, villain) they are defined by more than just their sexuality.

The villain in FC3 (not the final villain, but the one on the cover) was considered one of the more interesting, memorable and "cool" characters in the game. If they do the same thing with this character (again, who may or may not be gay), I think it could actually end up being a good thing. Idiots may confuse his evil goals with his sexuality, but those morons will have a bias anyway. If he's written well, the rest of us may easily end up seeing his homosexuality as just another one of the several characteristics that define this interesting character.

This. Vaas was a monster and a psychopath but he was so well written that for the majority of users, including journalist critiques, the biggest fault of Far Cry 3 was killing him off early!

A well written villain isn't any different than a well written protagonist, both are likable or have solid qualities that makes them a strong character.

And yes, a well written character can even fall into some stereotypes because more often than not, stereotypes are based in reality. It all depends on how the character is portrayed and how much depth they have.

So I'm all for a "fabulously" psychotic villain if that means we get Vaas class villain material.

 

[d9b]

If you're gonna reduce his entire post down to that simplistic argument (which I don't even think was his intended meaning), then you're basically ignoring 95% of what he said and not attempting to engage in a meaningful discussion.

Stop talking down at people and maybe you'll get meaningful discussion... one day, when you stop putting people in little boxes, labelling them and jumping to conclusions.

 

[Azure Wolf]

I'm more concerned that it's another truly crappy character design, just like the dudebro with a mohawk from Far Cry 3.

As for the OP? You represent a signifcant minority, it would be cool if more games could be commerically viable with LBGT protagonists, but the economic reality is that those same games would sell more with a straight lead.

Add in potential pressure from conservative sources around the world and it would be a brave (and foolish) developer that would risk meeting this comparatively tiny demographic's demands.

 

[Lizardus]

If you're gonna reduce his entire post down to that simplistic argument (which I don't even think was his intended meaning), then you're basically ignoring 95% of what he said and not attempting to engage in a meaningful discussion.

Yessir, meaningful discussion about a character that we know NOTHING about.

Also, if according to OP, straight protag vs gay antag is homophobia, 99% of games are heterophobic.

EDIT: The only thing that came to my mind watching the opening cutscene yesterday was "Oh boy, he looks like Vaas 2.0". Same mannerisms and everything.

 

[Sai-kun]

No more awful than OP who just assumed that purple clothes and certain hairstyle = Gay. What was this thread about again? Something about stereotypes?

No, saying that queer people should be happy with ANY representation that they receive, and telling us to make up our minds is INFINITELY more awful than an assumption that a villain who might appear stereotypically queer to a queer person could be a bad way to be represented, because of a history of queer-coding villains that absolutely exists within animation.

So, no, not more awful.

(though you did apologize, d9, so i'm not trying to harp on you as a person, just your post <3)

Yessir, meaningful discussion about a character that we know NOTHING about.

Also, if according to OP, straight protag vs gay antag is homophobia, 99% of games are heterophobic.

heterophobia doesn't exist please don't perpetuate the idea

 

[Andronicus]

Nice try Patricia Hernandez.

lmao, man

 

[ctothej]

I'm gay and am fine with a gay villain. The comparison to black villains in the 1950's is misguided because those films were playing to negative black stereotypes (aggressive, brutish, violent against white people). It's not like gay guys have to combat the stereotype that we're violent or sociopathic. If a game's one gay character is a hairdresser that hits on the straight protagonist, I might be a little offended at that. But a gay villain? I don't see the problem.

Spoiler

Also, I really don't think the Far Cry 4 villain is gay.

 

[Lizardus]

No, saying that queer people should be happy with ANY representation that they receive, and telling us to make up our minds is INFINITELY more awful than an assumption that a villain who might appear stereotypically queer to a queer person could be a bad way to be represented, because of a history of queer-coding villains that absolutely exists within animation.

So, no, not more awful.

(though you did apologize, d9, so i'm not trying to harp on you as a person, just your post <3)



heterophobia doesn't exist please don't perpetuate the idea

Well some people seem to have it

http://fandomsandfeminism.tumblr.com/post/62024723674/yes-im-heterophobic-let-me-tell-you-why

http://queersunited.blogspot.ca/2009/09/open-forum-does-heterophobia-exist.html

 

[Jado]

Yessir, meaningful discussion about a character that we know NOTHING about.

Also, if according to OP, straight protag vs gay antag is homophobia, 99% of games are heterophobic.

EDIT: The only thing that came to my mind watching the opening cutscene yesterday was "Oh boy, he looks like Vaas 2.0". Same mannerisms and everything.

Ubisoft/Far Cry have a shitty track record with minorities. Perfectly valid discussion to have now, to talk about the what ifs with this potentially harmful protrayal. If it's one you feel not worth having, then don't partake. Some of us still feel it's worthwhile to discuss. Your "heterophobia" remark is just straight-up nonsense. Hetero heroes killing hetero villains at the hands of majority hetero players? Please stop.

Stop talking down at people and maybe you'll get meaningful discussion... one day, when you stop putting people in little boxes, labelling them and jumping to conclusions.

Let's not have this thread revolve around how mad you are at me.

 

[DrunkDan]

Strange that some people look at him and think gay because of the clothes and hair.

If he was a flamboyant villain in a Jet Li movie people would think he was an evil badass instead.

But on the subject of including gay people in games, I feel like the developers can't win. You either use the stereotype and offend people for using said stereotype or don't use it and then often the camp flamboyant portion for missing them out. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Someone will always be offended - even if it's on somebody else's behalf.