Is there a concerted effort to tear down Naughty Dog
- Thread starter thelastword
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Roronoa Zoro
Gold Member
If that's what you view as a movie game then what do you call telltale or heavy rain? There's entirely too much resource management and open environment to call it a movie.
thelastword
Banned
Never said I doubted you.....You went from one of the biggest fans of LOU and UC and seeing a leak you have now cancelled your pre-order and are now stoked for CyberPunk, which also has leaks too….I'm guessing you prefer the leaked videos of Cyberpunk....I get it...Good luck,Sorry man, I really wish I was lying.
To me, It's really that bad. It may not bother you (I doubt it though). I'm not asking you to see the spoilers, but there is a reason for the backlash and a decent one.
This game will go down in history and not for a good reason.
Agreed, but this is what I'm saying as well.... A false narrative have formed over the years and like you know... If anything is repeated often enough no matter how false, people will start to believe it.....So a concerted effort to start a false narrative about a game being a movie game...….Yet some people will interpret that in the worse way possible, actually thinking, all there is to the games are cutscenes....It's why just alongside the movie game piece, you often see...."I'll watch Sony/ND games on YouTube"...
Naughty Dog is the same company that gave us U2 and LOU. It's crazy but U2 and LOU had many detractors as well.....Check all the threads over the years trying to discredit LOU's framerate and calling LOU 25fps instead of enjoying one of the best games on the PS3, yet other games people deem the holy grail run at 15fps on the N64. Then you had so many threads saying LOU is not that good and even recently, a thread was created saying if "U2 should have really won GOTY that year".....There's concerted effort allright… If people could turn back time to undo ND's reception and what made them so good and praised, they would....If they could go back and relieve ND of their various GOTY awards, they would....
In the end, what you deem great gameplay is all subjective. Yet if many critics and millions love what you have produced, then you are doing something right, because the main purpose of game creation is to get as many people to enjoy the content as possible. Not sitting in a corner pining that your game is the greatest and not as many people see it that way....
And to add some further credence to that. People talk about UC 3 and UC4 as if they are Life of Black Tiger and Bad Rats.....Again, the concerted effort. These are also GOTY caliber games in the year they came....UC3 and UC4 are both gems of games, UC4 evolved the gameplay to even more verticality and improved mechanics. They are 92% and 93% on Meta respectively.......Naughty has not lost it;s way in the least bit......There's no way Naughty has two big franchises from last gen and they went on to leave them in the dust and go on a full new IP in the PS4 generation......There are companies that are oversaturating their franchises, Sony is not guilty of that. They will actually re-invent their older franchises often past the third game......and there's evidence to prove that.....If anything, you can expect a new franchise from ND next gen on PS5, it's when it makes most sense. There's no way ND should have not produced UC4 and LOU 2. Also you need to be less disingenuous, making UC4, LL and LOU2 is not coasting on sequels, it's catering to two of the biggest fanbases in gaming, where millions of UC4 was sold, LOU 2 is not even out yet. People would have been pissed if they didn't get a UC4 and sequel to LOU. It's like you have a star player who won MVP last year and you bench him the following. I certainly know who's not running my franchise as for good business logic and putting output, where there's demand..
DrScissorsMD
Banned
There is no concerted effort to tear down any 1st party dev of either Sony or Ms, or Nintendo for that matter. To suggest as such is ridiculous and insecure.
Right now gamers hate so called movie games but in a few years it will be something else. It is not a conspiracy to tear them down but every years a certain genre becomes a favorite punching bag. It has also been a battleground in the culture wars since the kiss but it exploded when the leaks came out. The story greatly enhances the experience but you can't take every cutscene and piece of dialogue out and it would still be a great game.
Whitesnake
Banned
My guy have you ever even played a game other than Uncharted and Last of Us?
Those games are some of the most linear experiences out there. Choosing which guy to shoot first is not actually variety.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
I can't imagine being so insecure given the position ND is in. They are about to have a monster game release with surely great reviews and sales and you're upset about some perceived effort to take them down a peg or two.
1. every popular thing has detractors and people claiming overrated
2. lol who has called LoU or Uncharted a walking sim? You do know what concerted means, yes? If so, you should have ample evidence of people uniting behind this criticism. Also lol @ trying to make LoU gameplay more open ended than it is. ND games are strictly linear affairs
3. oh so you think ND games are great so the studio has a right to overwork staff etc
4. anything created by artists can be labeled as an attempt by the artist to push their point of views on you. That's the point of the art. And Druckman or however you spell it has commented numerous times about changing elements of his games to fit his political views. So yes, he is forcing those views on anyone who plays the games. Obviously you can say "well don't play the games" but that doesn't address the issue. And it's not a bad thing that he is pushing his views on people, again, that's what artists do.
Its fucking Naughty Dog, do they really need you to rally a defense force
1. every popular thing has detractors and people claiming overrated
2. lol who has called LoU or Uncharted a walking sim? You do know what concerted means, yes? If so, you should have ample evidence of people uniting behind this criticism. Also lol @ trying to make LoU gameplay more open ended than it is. ND games are strictly linear affairs
3. oh so you think ND games are great so the studio has a right to overwork staff etc
4. anything created by artists can be labeled as an attempt by the artist to push their point of views on you. That's the point of the art. And Druckman or however you spell it has commented numerous times about changing elements of his games to fit his political views. So yes, he is forcing those views on anyone who plays the games. Obviously you can say "well don't play the games" but that doesn't address the issue. And it's not a bad thing that he is pushing his views on people, again, that's what artists do.
Its fucking Naughty Dog, do they really need you to rally a defense force
Grand Theft Scratchy
Banned
Not another one of these threads. People are allowed to disagree with you and not like everything you do.
StreetsofBeige
Member
Out of all the criticism from game sites, bloggers, forums and YT/Twitter comments, I don't think I've seen one person say LoU2 is bad due to being a walking sim.
OP added it in to pad his list war of reasons not thinking people would notice.
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Dr. Claus
Banned
I disagree that there is "too much resource management and open environment" in TLOU, but again, I don't consider it a movie game. Please re-read what I posted.
Vick
Member
That's a pretty bad attempt at rewriting history, an enthusiast board should deserve better than this.
Sure ND aren't famous for groundbreaking mechanics, but there were no TPS like the Uncharted series before nor after. No TPS allowed you to shoot from pretty much every position, while hanging on all different surfaces in encounters with that level of verticality on moving levels. After Uncharted, most TPS i've played almost felt like on rails arcades in comparison.
Name me a shooter you can plays like this (encounter starts at 2:50):
And this is the most basic gunfight you can get in these games, no verticality nor stealth, no crazy stuff like encounters on moving trains, real time sinking ships placed inside real time procedurally generated oceans, falling planes etc. etc.
I honestly feel only someone who never played these games could say things like that.. so maybe the first part of your post wasn't that far from the truth after all.
Sure, however since games score system is based since forever on specific parameters such as gameplay, graphics, sound etc., these ain't ND type of scores.
There's multiple quotes from ND developers from almost a decade ago openly saying that accepting crunch is basically required to work at ND. It's a particular approach that put the game's quality before everything else and that sure ain't for everyone. But that's why their games are what they are.
Totally agree with you here.
DrAspirino
Banned
THIS.
Naughty Dog has made excellent games, but lately has been under very poor management and most people's issue is with current management (i.e. SJW politics, overworking employees, etc), not with the studio as a whole.
thelastword
Banned
To be fair, there's no oversaturation with ND's brand of games.....It could never be, as long as they keep churning GOTY releases. ND's games are simply games with a solid gameplay foundation, awesome graphics and animation, likeable characters and dialogue and a good story.....The reason why they are so good is because all elements of their game are at a high level......You cant say their graphics suck, you can't say the camera sucks, you cant say the characters suck, you cant say the animation sucks, you cant say the dialogue and story sucks. Everything is at a high level of excellence...
Games where they just put you in a level and tell you play, with not much in plot and likeable characters does not mean it has better gameplay and It's one thing people think is automatically true. Games are a combination of many factors, they should all be at a high level.
Yet, I think I recollect the industry hitting out at "another FPS" and another "open world game". I don't think that exists with ND games. That's why I say games are more about all elements......People love Drake, they love Ellie and Joel and many other characters in ND;s games... I love me some Eddie Raja and he is not even a good guy per se.....It's a rear thing, where you enjoy a game beyond just it's gameplay systems, but that you also enjoy it's characters, good or bad, it's story and that some levels are so memorable to you, both for visuals, art spectacle and some based on the gameplay challenge you got there. I think ND has this locked down more than any other dev. It's why they are so revered in this industry. So no, I don't think people are tired of ND games, if anything they have grown tremendously in popularity, UC4 sold tonnes and I expect LOU 2 to easily outsell LOU 1.... Yet if you watch closely, many other devs are trying to copy elements of ND games...… So it seems they are truly leaders rather than followers at this point...….
Yet having said that, ND have proven they can do any genre. They've done anything from an RPG, to platformers to racers, to action adventure. I'm pretty sure they can do any genre they wish to......Next gen will be interesting whatever they do, and I'm very confident they will mix it up quite a bit.
No, there isn't a concerted effort. Like any other media, gaming is often a subjective experience. Not everyone will enjoy the same things nor should they.
However, there is a very vocal minority of detractors rooting for TLOU Part II to fail, which is kind of sad but also amusing.
What I do take issue with is the hypocrisy some of those detractors tend to display. Why would you outright bash a game you haven't even bothered to play or drag the director of said game because their politics don't align with your own? It's typically the SJW types that are some of the most intolerant people around, who will chastise other people that disagree with them politically. Or antagonize others for expressing different opinions on certain ideas or issues. The moment you engage in that sort of rhetoric you become no different than the very same SJWs you criticize. At that point it's not even about judging a game on its own merit, it's about political tribalism.
We participate in a free market so it's not about feeling obligated to support certain games over others. Play whatever game you want and support whichever developer you want. However I feel the discourse surrounding certain ideas or themes within games can at times be counterproductive and irrational. Which usually to leads to reactionary behavior.
However, there is a very vocal minority of detractors rooting for TLOU Part II to fail, which is kind of sad but also amusing.
What I do take issue with is the hypocrisy some of those detractors tend to display. Why would you outright bash a game you haven't even bothered to play or drag the director of said game because their politics don't align with your own? It's typically the SJW types that are some of the most intolerant people around, who will chastise other people that disagree with them politically. Or antagonize others for expressing different opinions on certain ideas or issues. The moment you engage in that sort of rhetoric you become no different than the very same SJWs you criticize. At that point it's not even about judging a game on its own merit, it's about political tribalism.
We participate in a free market so it's not about feeling obligated to support certain games over others. Play whatever game you want and support whichever developer you want. However I feel the discourse surrounding certain ideas or themes within games can at times be counterproductive and irrational. Which usually to leads to reactionary behavior.
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Lionel Richie
Member
BASED and jakpilled.
Bloody Knuckles
Banned
People hate success stories, people dont like Tom Brady regardless of his politics the guy is a goat and people will claim that, same as, mayweather etc.
I don't think so, It's just a mirror of how sad and full of negativity the world is at the moment, with right winged nut jobs getting triggered so easily when people are being creative.
Don't know how Games can ever reach to become more like film as a storytelling medium considering all the outrage a non standard trope causes in the boys around here, surely their heads would explode if they would ever watch a years Canne Film Festival Lineup.
Don't know how Games can ever reach to become more like film as a storytelling medium considering all the outrage a non standard trope causes in the boys around here, surely their heads would explode if they would ever watch a years Canne Film Festival Lineup.
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thelastword
Banned
I think that poster misunderstood such a quote. ND has never gone for model type women in their games, all the women in UC and LOU had a tough, survivalist outlook and countenance about them, even Chloe. They were never posed as models that appear on the Victoria Secret show.....I think that's what some people want and no matter how small, they are very vocal.....What sense does it make to be climbing mountains all over, hanging on ledges and yet Lara still looks so good, it seems all that cold weather and the beatdowns by men and animals alike are the health vials of beauty that sustains Lara's appearance. Nice clothes, make-up still well done all up on these snowy tops....
It would seem many people want a fap simulator, whilst Naughty Dog goes for a more realistic experience. Lara does not even appear to be as tough as Ellie and Chloe and certainly not Nadine.....Even Elena and her encounters are much more realistic, like you know she is not as tough as the rest, but it's perfectly represented in-game. Lara has no emotional impact on anything or anyone during her games, she's just a pretty girl who does death defying jumps everyday, no sweat. Lots of moaning though and that walk, because that's all realistic for the role she portrays....If anything that's pandering, and I'm not against sexuality in games, but it should not be the primary tool you use to try and sell your game.....It's ever so present in Lara games tbh.
I'm saying, if you want to make a game with a pretty woman just because you think it will appeal to heterosexual boys or men, you are already starting on the wrong foot. That is no guarantee that your game will sell, just look at how the Lara games have declined in sales this gen. That should never be the focus, Lara having a nice face and shaking her ass whilst walking is not going to save your game....I still remember people making noise about Jill Valentine in RE-Remake, is that what's so important. Games should not be or do not sell based on their fappable metric. I'm sure there are many games which don't sell all that well that caters directly to that and it is an eye-opener as to it's relevance.
Yet it seems, there is indeed a crowd that's overly focused on these things, thinking that this is what gaming is about. Models aren't surviving what Ellie is surviving there. Yet you watch at some of the mods and creations they do with RE-2 Remake and all the adult themed Overwatch contentm then it seems there are some people who are overly enthused of putting it in widow maker or whatever polygonal character they see on screen.....Personally, I could care-less, what's most important is the gameplay experience and if Ellie brings out any emotion, tense and nail biting moments during gameplay, if I actually care for the in-game character and their plight whilst playing. I think, this is what is most important than to simply paint a Paris Hilton/Kylie Jenner type in your video game....for whatever exuberance that subsides within the first two minutes....
Or Lebron......Definitely a thing....Yet you turn the tides and these players are now on the hater's team and it's all praise.....Just cue how many (ND employee is now working for my favorite company) threads we've seen, started by persons who didn't have much of a pulse for anything ND. Or the people who hated Insomniac till they played Sunset Overdrive, and suddenly an Insomniac game is the holy grail. Lot's of deflecting for sure based on who is on which team and where the studio is aligned.....One thing that keeps everything in perspective is ND's track record of Meta scores, sales and GOTY's...……..It's the hard evidence which no smear campaign can fizzle.....Just look at how people are already assuming LOU 2 will be lackluster because of a leak and whatever is in it......A guy who had a steelbook is so upset, he cancelled but names the game he prefers over it, then he blames the leak...…..This is just counter marketing at best. People are already arguing and have settled that they know LOU2's quality even if they have not played.
TBF, I don't think any of this will affect LOU negatively, just as the puddle campaign did not affect Spiderman or the Generic campaign did not affect Days Gone, but to suggest people are not actively engaged in muddying the waters is a bit too obvious not to see.
farmerboy
Member
Maybe ND have done this.
I'm not about to let out of context spoilers taint what I think.
GreatnessRD
Member
I know people care A LOT. But I just refuse to believe that people care that much in this situation. But Generation Snowflake has surprised me, lol.
Strider7
Member
Personally, I have loved Naughty Dog's work to include TLOU 1 and Uncharted 4/Lost Legacy. That said, without going into any detail, the spoilers have really soured me on TLOU 2 and Druckman. Enough that I actually cancelled my preorder, which is crazy because I love the first game. Not to be dramatic, but I just don't want to tarnish my fond memories of the first game and those characters.
daninthemix
Member
I think probably just because their fans are among the most insufferable.
Majima Everywhere System
Member
I've been doing it for a while now, and I've become quite good at it. For me, it was the decline in charm that came with The Last of Us. I never liked Crash games, started with Uncharted 2, and have never seen them top that game.
Everything after Uncharted 2 seemed to have a layer of up-it's-own-assness in the story.
I tried to play through The Last of Us Remastered with my girlfriend. Compared to the holy gift that is Horizon Zero Dawn, TLOU shits the bed as soon as it gives control to the player in a real way. Terrible box moving, shit stealth, ps1 generation aiming, let me boost you over this wall shit.
Watching The Last of Us 2 train wreck with my reality glasses fully on has been the best thing to happen to Naught Dogs games since their talent started to fan out across the industry. God, the commradery that must have been felt on the uncharted 3 B team as you watched the TLOU pretty much suck every person you hate at the company onto one project. I'd go to the bar with those dudes, and maybe even choreograph a fight for the game so we could expense the tab.
Everything after Uncharted 2 seemed to have a layer of up-it's-own-assness in the story.
I tried to play through The Last of Us Remastered with my girlfriend. Compared to the holy gift that is Horizon Zero Dawn, TLOU shits the bed as soon as it gives control to the player in a real way. Terrible box moving, shit stealth, ps1 generation aiming, let me boost you over this wall shit.
Watching The Last of Us 2 train wreck with my reality glasses fully on has been the best thing to happen to Naught Dogs games since their talent started to fan out across the industry. God, the commradery that must have been felt on the uncharted 3 B team as you watched the TLOU pretty much suck every person you hate at the company onto one project. I'd go to the bar with those dudes, and maybe even choreograph a fight for the game so we could expense the tab.
Papa
Banned
It's possible, but when it comes to cults (which I consider feminism to be), I've found that future behaviour can be reliably extrapolated from past behaviour.
jadefire66
Member
Feels like half of this thread = ERA members who got banned there for not being SJW enough and came back to this forum. A lot more sjws around here lately than last year. Some of them don't even bother to set an avatar and they're already talking about muh triggered gamers lol.
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ExpandKong
Banned
Shit fellas he's on to us
I'll get you next time Naughty Doggggggggggggg
no
I'll get you next time Naughty Doggggggggggggg
no
captainraincoat
Banned
Wasn't saying ND dont make a good games....the games are fun to play but you dont get the same awe factor you once did and the time they could of been spending making a completely new mind blowing game...they spent it doing paid remasters of TLOU and the Uncharted collection to ps4
and we got 1 new uncharted game on ps4 and the follow up for TLOU2 which has been delayed about 3 times and doesn't even include the cool MP mode from the first game....this isnt the same company that pushed the envelope in the ps3 days
i honestly think they have fallen into the Gears of War sequel phase and while those games review well are also loved they dont really tread new ground
For whatever reason key people have left ND to go to other studios and the PR narrative has changed from enjoy our cool new game to ...we are going to delay this game a few times and here....have some Social justice politics to tide you over
its not really a conspiracy...people are just simply tired of this sort of shit
D
Deleted member 740922
Unconfirmed Member
More like a concerted effort to fawn over them at every turn....by some....
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
SJW fanatics and anti-SJW freedom fighters are similar cults/warring factions intent more in fighting each other than fighting for something.
Games are trailing TV's and movies where when you first started to introduce any non laughing stock/token lesbian,queer, etc... character it was met with a "you are shoving politics down my throat" no matter how it was done (and in games we are at this stage still: put traditional religion under a bad light, mostly in the U.S. as in E.U. there is less reverence for organised religions as the scars it left are deeper, and add a gay main character where their sexuality is explored more than skin deep and you get that reaction).
Netflix is now at the next step, the over reaction, where women will note the sudden increase not only in heavy handed female centric shows and characters, but, and I quote, "It seems like every teenage girl is a lesbian or them discovering themselves lesbian is the plot twist of the show". Games are kind of going this trajectory too.
StreetsofBeige
Member
LoU2's June launch is literally 5 months away (assuming Nov PS5 launch) from being a game that didn't even launch during PS4's 7 year span before PS5 arrives.
Going forward I think Sony has realized they don't need lots of sequels. What you're going to get for PS5 is probably a mainline sequel for UC and LoU (UC 5 and LoU3), and a few remasters and collections. And that assumes the remasters aren't free PS5 enhanced patches.
There's possibility that PS5 is literally UC 5 around 2022 and LoU 3 around 2025-2026. And that's it.
PanzerAzel
Member
I've no trouble with ND as a dev, they're actually one of my favorites.
And I don't mind politics and agendas in my games, even if I disagree with respective ideologies. But if you're going to infuse your works with these ideologies, don't think you can come at me and sling the most disgusting of labels and accusations my way when I don't embrace them. Especially when there is abundant evidence in statements, actions, and affiliations on your side indicative of you embracing toxicity and pushing that bullshit in the most ham-fisted and idiotic way possible.
That's not my fault ND, it's yours, and I'll tell you to get fucked and take a look in the mirror as to why people are so opposed to you.
And I don't mind politics and agendas in my games, even if I disagree with respective ideologies. But if you're going to infuse your works with these ideologies, don't think you can come at me and sling the most disgusting of labels and accusations my way when I don't embrace them. Especially when there is abundant evidence in statements, actions, and affiliations on your side indicative of you embracing toxicity and pushing that bullshit in the most ham-fisted and idiotic way possible.
That's not my fault ND, it's yours, and I'll tell you to get fucked and take a look in the mirror as to why people are so opposed to you.
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Silent Viper
Banned
They are being called out for pushing SJW agenda on us through their games. They openly support people like Anita Sarkessian who hates games and want turn them into shit.
No one was attacking ND all this time but after seeing multiple proofs how they using their games to push their dumb agenda on us. I think they needed to be called out.
No one was attacking ND all this time but after seeing multiple proofs how they using their games to push their dumb agenda on us. I think they needed to be called out.
Silent Viper
Banned
Da fuk. Lastword guy created this thread? Ok im out. There's nothing to see or say here. Guy worships ND and Sony and will accept whatever nonsense they throw at us through their games
Stuart360
Member
TLW you said you haven't watched or read any of the leaks, the leaks are the main reason why people are turning against ND. This thread is a bit pointless when you dont even know why the backlash is happening in the first place.
I dont think anyone is trying to say ND are not a good studio who make good games (although i still think Uncharted 2 amd 3 are way better than 4, and the leaks to me show that TLAU will be way better than the sequel).
I dont think anyone is trying to say ND are not a good studio who make good games (although i still think Uncharted 2 amd 3 are way better than 4, and the leaks to me show that TLAU will be way better than the sequel).
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Has OP realised yet that they don't know what a walking simulator is?
imagine referring to an ND game as that... Movie Simulator? That fits, but walking simulator....?
Even then I would only consider UC4 and TLOU as movie simulators...UC 1-3 are superb third person shooters, especially 2
imagine referring to an ND game as that... Movie Simulator? That fits, but walking simulator....?
Even then I would only consider UC4 and TLOU as movie simulators...UC 1-3 are superb third person shooters, especially 2
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StreetsofBeige
Member
He's read them and knows why, but playing coy about it and defending.
A Most Virtuous Cat
Banned
I certainly agree; there is an effort to tear down ND lead by Neil Druckman and Co.
Papa
Banned
Your argument is valid if you assume that both sides of the argument are of equal merit, but they're not. One is attempting to dismantle social structures that have evolved over many thousands of years; the other is attempting to preserve them. It's the difference between attacking and defending, and who started it does indeed matter in spite of what our children are taught these days.
I'm in favour of social progress (see: change) where necessary as a result of technological change, e.g. automation of traditionally feminine tasks in the home enabling the transition of women to the external workplace, but it has to be accompanied by a critical understanding of why the traditional social structures exist. That's not what is happening with these post-modern radicals who want to selfishly bend society to their own personal whim irrespective of collateral damage.
Hostile_18
Banned
I'm glad this is been acknowledged.
Uncharted 1,2,3,4, Lost Legacy and Last of Us all amazing, amazing games yet people want to tear down the studio for the leaks of one game that isn't even out yet... its pathetic.
Let's face it though its because Naughty Dog are so popular, their games the best in the industry and beloved by so many fans, and detractors don't like that.
Don't be fooled by the hate Last of Us part 2 will be one of the greatest games ever made, and the PS4's crowning achievement. ❤
Uncharted 1,2,3,4, Lost Legacy and Last of Us all amazing, amazing games yet people want to tear down the studio for the leaks of one game that isn't even out yet... its pathetic.
Let's face it though its because Naughty Dog are so popular, their games the best in the industry and beloved by so many fans, and detractors don't like that.
Don't be fooled by the hate Last of Us part 2 will be one of the greatest games ever made, and the PS4's crowning achievement. ❤
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NeoGiffer
Member
Stilton Disco
Member
There's always been a vocal minority that have disliked their more Movie like approach to games, they're ome of the biggest names in the industry so there's just flat out more people to have opinions on them, and their wearing their very unpopular, political extremist opinions on their sleeves and letting ot influence their development decisions is obviously drawing a lot of fire, but it's silly to assume that all implies there's some grand conspiracy to tear them down.