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[Hostile_18]

TLW you said you haven't watched or read any of the leaks, the leaks are the main reason why people are turning against ND. This thread is a bit pointless when you dont even know why the backlash is happening in the first place.
I dont think anyone is trying to say ND are not a good studio who make good games (although i still think Uncharted 2 amd 3 are way better than 4, and the leaks to me show that TLAU will be way better than the sequel).

Have a look through any Naughty Dog threads the last few years on here and you'll see an anti ND sentiment even before the leaks. The leak was just justification the haters could use.

Anyone in their right mind would wait till the finished game is out before making an informed judgement. Context is everything.

 

[GiJoint]

They're popular, have a big backer and sell plenty of games. A few angry people on some forums is hardly anything to stress about for them. They will just keep on goin.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

No problem at all with ND. I'd just wish they tackle a new IP next gen.

 

[Paracelsus]

Spoiler

-Anticipated entry from a popular saga.
-People know what to expect, some surprises but nothing crazy, they expect the producers to respect the saga
-Rumors surface, they don't sound too good.
-"Wait for the finished product"
-Item is out, the new elements are exactly as bad as they sounded before, even worse.
-Some fans see the writing on the wall, others hope nothing bad will happen, others go in denial ("a love letter")
-Some fans argue there is no reason to trust them given their track record, other fans use older, better established elements to defend the new direction which makes no sense.
-There is solid arguments against it, counterarguments are "hehe previous game did this so this dumber thing that is way too dumb even for fiction is okey" or "u h8 ch4ng3" or "authors know better" or "entitled, nostalgia, toxic" etc. or other nonsense like "if you accept everything they give you with an empty mind you're a bigger fan" or something
-Some "fans" try to hate on older entries in a vain attempt to redeem the new ones
-Newer entry comes out, it indeed ruins the series.
-The hatred is now too widespread to be spun otherwise, some people still have the head up the ass and do mental gymnastics to justify it, and look ridiculous while doing it.

New entry from old cherished series is announced, the cycle repeats.

tl;dr You must live under a rock if you think this phenomenon is exclusively about Naughty Dog.
It's going to happen as more and more cherished series sh* the bed.

It can be political but it doesn't have to be, in fact the people defending this sound the same whether there is politics involved or not.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Have a look through any Naughty Dog threads the last few years on here and you'll see an anti ND sentiment even before the leaks. The leak was just justification the haters could use.

Anyone in their right mind would wait till the finished game is out before making an informed judgement. Context is everything.

No amount of context will fix the shit in those leaks.

 

[Helios]

Yes. We sit in our "Legion of Doom"-esque headquarters plotting our revenge against Naughty Dog as punishment for giving up on the Jak & Daxter series.

Me and the boys when our plan gets exposed by the extremely intelligent thelastword

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Get rid of duckman and bring back based Amy and i'll support them again

 

[MadchesterManc]

Are Naughty Dog at the top of their game tho? They've been lackluster this generation compared to previous gens, they should be knocked off their untouchable pedestal

 

[Kumomeme]

nope..if anything else...its them who shot at their own foot

 

[Hostile_18]

No amount of context will fix the shit in those leaks.

I haven't seen them but I honestly can't believe a studio that's had such an amazing track record could fall from grace that hard? At the very least the graphics and gameplay look amazing, surely that counts for alot?

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I feel like it only feels concerted because right wing gaming Youtube all has nearly identical takes to each other on the leaks. I think a lot of them look at their victories when it comes to games like ME Andromeda and Battlefield V and are a little too confident about this one because of it (it was barely a radar blip for these sorts prior to the leaks, those games had anti-hype prior to release based on what the devs decided to show us about them, which is pretty indicative of the difference here.) I found one take that seemed pretty measured to me...



Take a look at the dislikes, though. How much of that was just over the video title and not what he had to say? The 2 following videos with more clickbait titles about TLOU II in a more negative context resulted in far less down voting. But, part of my problem with such channels is they orbit around games that mess up and people love bad news about new games. There are channels that make most their money off of telling you what's wrong with Fallout 76 on a weekly basis, for instance. People love this shit on Youtube and clearly are more divided when it comes to actually defending a game's quality. This is why stuff like Cinema Sins, Your Movie Sucks, How It Should Have Ended and so forth do so well, it's why Angry Video Game Nerd got huge and we got more people with some form of "angry" in their name because throwing a fit over video games is what we want from youtubers (not realizing AVGN was doing a bit with a character). Negativity simply gets more clicks than positivity and considering political alignments, tribal console warriors and people who already hated the first game this just gets exponentially more traction.

The problem, for me, with TLOU II getting this treatment is the games it sits among which also got the same treatment had way more clearly wrong with them than simply injecting woke stuff. Some people are sick of being lied to and misleading marketing prior to a game's launch, they are sick of stuff like Colonial Marines, Watch_Dogs and whatever else and there's another group that's sick of stuff going woke and they try to tie the woke aspects to the game's being bad. With ME Andromeda we know what the real problems were, the woke aspect was a crutch for people who didn't know enough about what actually makes a game good. With Battlefield V it's deficit of content and decision to mete out content over the course of three years was a bigger undoing for it than any woke politics. Was it really woke stuff that ruined Anthem? Or again paltry content, terrible AI and a dreadful loot system? Games like No Man's Sky had awful launches but had nothing woke about them, they just launched poorly (and have been making up for it ever since). Destiny 2 had a pretty bad launch but there was nothing woke about it and it's also been course correcting ever since. Was Fallout 76 woke? Not the impression I ever got. The thing is, you'll notice a common problem in my examples, and it isn't whether or not the game is woke. The woke thing is a crutch because everyone knows to expect quality from Naughty Dog, we know it's going to look amazing, play well and be very polished so woke is all we've got and woke is 100% based on out of context leaked spoilers. Before this the big problem with the game for people was two women kissing (my God, get your agenda out of my face!) and without the leaks that's how it would have been until the leaked elements possibly caused a backlash. Some will tell you they would have hated them either way but no one can truly know that without seeing them occur in context and for anyone looking at leaks that idea is gone, heck maybe some of them will like these sections more now because the shock of them is gone and when you play the game you'll say "oh, this does have a decent, non-woke, justification!" Can't know for sure but we can know it's unlikely to have the problems of Fallout 76, Battlefield V, Anthem, Launch Destiny 2, Launch No Man's Sky, Colonial Marines, Watch_Dogs, etc. I could see someone arguing Mass Effect Andromeda was somewhat out of nowhere (we had the anti-hype prior to release) considering the quality of the franchise but besides stuff that happened prior to it's launch you also have the ME 3 fiasco with the ending which had already diminished expectations for Andromeda.

TL;DR: The "concerted" effort by many on youtube, especially right wing gaming channels, is fueled by fans of the channels wanting another gargantuan shit show like ME Andromeda or Fallout 76 which provided tons of funny content from these Youtubers but besides certain "woke" elements all signs point towards an incredibly well made game, it wouldn't even be a target without the leaks.

 

[Kokoloko85]

Probably.
All I know is MS is loving that Playstations main strength is having issue. Naughty dog being there top developer whether you like there games or not.

And anyone who thinks Naughty Dog is overrated. The game company you think is the best is also overrated..... apart from From Software of course

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I haven't seen them but I honestly can't believe a studio that's had such an amazing track record could fall from grace that hard? At the very least the graphics and gameplay look amazing, surely that counts for alot?

I mean maybe we'll have to see.

All I can say is if it wasn't for the amazing story in Part 1, I would have easily dropped that game. The gameplay there was nothing to write home about.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I feel like it only feels concerted because right wing gaming Youtube all has nearly identical takes to each other on the leaks. I think a lot of them look at their victories when it comes to games like ME Andromeda and Battlefield V and are a little too confident about this one because of it (it was barely a radar blip for these sorts prior to the leaks, those games had anti-hype prior to release based on what the devs decided to show us about them, which is pretty indicative of the difference here.) I found one take that seemed pretty measured to me...



Take a look at the dislikes, though. How much of that was just over the video title and not what he had to say? The 2 following videos with more clickbait titles about TLOU II in a more negative context resulted in far less down voting. But, part of my problem with such channels is they orbit around games that mess up and people love bad news about new games. There are channels that make most their money off of telling you what's wrong with Fallout 76 on a weekly basis, for instance. People love this shit on Youtube and clearly are more divided when it comes to actually defending a game's quality. This is why stuff like Cinema Sins, Your Movie Sucks, How It Should Have Ended and so forth do so well, it's why Angry Video Game Nerd got huge and we got more people with some form of "angry" in their name because throwing a fit over video games is what we want from youtubers (not realizing AVGN was doing a bit with a character). Negativity simply gets more clicks than positivity and considering political alignments, tribal console warriors and people who already hated the first game this just gets exponentially more traction.

The problem, for me, with TLOU II getting this treatment is the games it sits among which also got the same treatment had way more clearly wrong with them than simply injecting woke stuff. Some people are sick of being lied to and misleading marketing prior to a game's launch, they are sick of stuff like Colonial Marines, Watch_Dogs and whatever else and there's another group that's sick of stuff going woke and they try to tie the woke aspects to the game's being bad. With ME Andromeda we know what the real problems were, the woke aspect was a crutch for people who didn't know enough about what actually makes a game good. With Battlefield V it's deficit of content and decision to mete out content over the course of three years was a bigger undoing for it than any woke politics. Was it really woke stuff that ruined Anthem? Or again paltry content, terrible AI and a dreadful loot system? Games like No Man's Sky had awful launches but had nothing woke about them, they just launched poorly (and have been making up for it ever since). Destiny 2 had a pretty bad launch but there was nothing woke about it and it's also been course correcting ever since. Was Fallout 76 woke? Not the impression I ever got. The thing is, you'll notice a common problem in my examples, and it isn't whether or not the game is woke. The woke thing is a crutch because everyone knows to expect quality from Naughty Dog, we know it's going to look amazing, play well and be very polished so woke is all we've got and woke is 100% based on out of context leaked spoilers. Before this the big problem with the game for people was two women kissing (my God, get your agenda out of my face!) and without the leaks that's how it would have been until the leaked elements possibly caused a backlash. Some will tell you they would have hated them either way but no one can truly know that without seeing them occur in context and for anyone looking at leaks that idea is gone, heck maybe some of them will like these sections more now because the shock of them is gone and when you play the game you'll say "oh, this does have a decent, non-woke, justification!" Can't know for sure but we can know it's unlikely to have the problems of Fallout 76, Battlefield V, Anthem, Launch Destiny 2, Launch No Man's Sky, Colonial Marines, Watch_Dogs, etc. I could see someone arguing Mass Effect Andromeda was somewhat out of nowhere (we had the anti-hype prior to release) considering the quality of the franchise but besides stuff that happened prior to it's launch you also have the ME 3 fiasco with the ending which had already diminished expectations for Andromeda.

TL;DR: The "concerted" effort by many on youtube, especially right wing gaming channels, is fueled by fans of the channels wanting another gargantuan shit show like ME Andromeda or Fallout 76 which provided tons of funny content from these Youtubers but besides certain "woke" elements all signs point towards an incredibly well made game, it wouldn't even be a target without the leaks.

You can't keep blaming "right wing" when even Angry Joe is riding the hate train

 

[Explosive Zombie]

You can't keep blaming "right wing" when even Angry Joe is riding the hate train

I'm not sure you read my entire post? I thought I made it clear right wing was only a part of it and gaming Youtube in general simply feeds on negativity.

 

[Hypereides]

I mostly lean towards Sony and this notion is straight up ridiculous, seriously. I some times question if the Sony clique here thinks Sony isn't susceptible to criticism.

Personally I think Naughty dog has fallen from grace in the past decade.

 

[Stefan.North]

I only have "concern" (not really, but let's use your word) that ND only follows current trends that in age of social media is sculptured only by the loudest crowd. Before it was created by artisans themselves (in music, Hollywood and other).

If the Last of Us was made in 80's, protagonists would be Schwarzenegger / Stalone type macho man and TLoU2 Ellie would be Sigourney Weaver / Linda Hamilton type tough but sexy woman.

If it was made in the 90's they would be rad, tubular and with lots of tude. From earlier 2000's, Ellie would be some Goth missunderstood rebel.

It's post 2010's, and of course a pandering spineless dev like ND is gonna make it SJW friendly.

 

[The Cockatrice]

Most people, aka 90% of the sales coming from outside of gaf and resetera dont give a shit and I'm included.

 

[GenericUser]

I'm a playstation only console gamer and I think naughty dog only delivers boring games. Style over substance. Uncharted 4 was a borefest. Predictable and unimaginative. I don't understand why people praise them so much. They were awesome during the bandicoot/jak days though, I'll give you that.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

I'm a playstation only console gamer and I think naughty dog only delivers boring games. Style over substance. Uncharted 4 was a borefest. Predictable and unimaginative. I don't understand why people praise them so much. They were awesome during the bandicoot/jak days though, I'll give you that.

The graphics are good though

 

[cormack12]

I mean most of those are just opinions OP. ND are in a weird position where they have a few titles that are in a different tier to other stuff, but people confuse their technical ability with prudcing good games.


Drake's Fortune is pretty much a AA/B tier game. It was ambitious but it's not 'great'. It can probably sits at the lower tier of 'good'. And that's coming from someone who actually likes the first title. I wouldn't even say it's in the same class as AC1 to AC2. It wasn't even something appreciated in its time.

Uncharted 2 is a great game, no question. Absolutely breathtaking, well paced, balanced amazingly. Built on the middling foundation of 1.

Uncharted 3 is not their best, graphically it's good as are all their games, but the new shooting mechanics that were introduced, and the bullet sponge enemies are not good and have no place in these games. I felt this was the first time we saw technical achievements trying to cover up a mediocre game below (e.g. ship level and water and airplane set piece). Had a very solid start up until about chapter 8, then it just went off a cliff edge. Widely regarded as the worst Uncharted

The Last of Us was again a high point for the studio. New IP, came at the right time in the console generation and was probably just before everyone was worn out on zombies. It also committed to fully realising a character driven story

Uncharted 4 is probably the most divisive title. So I think it's important to crack the criticism into two parts. First the gameplay, veered more towards UC2 than the abomination that was 3. A few things were changed up that enhanced certain aspects of the combat. The stealth indicators were awesome, the traversal was pretty much a value-add though. It looked great in gifs but aside from normal difficulties and below it wasn't really useful becasue of the time the animation took to activate and finish, and left you standing exposed. Most encounters were still built on the UC1 'wave' formula. Things like the winch on the car were pretty, but are effectively physics puzzles. The puzzle design was much better in UC4 though, the best of the series.
The other criticism is the story/pacing whatever. This was the first time that Naughty Dog felt clunky to me. Where you had the pace of the game fighting the pace of the storytelling. It was offputting. It was the first point, it felt more than a little indulgent to me. Then the whole bait and switch with Sam and playing through a scene that never happened to trick the reader is just lazy and poor writing in order to manipulate or evoke a sentiment/feeling. Was cheap. However, it sold amazingly well and had great production. Probably the third best in the series.

Lost Legacy was a callback to the frenetic pace of UC2 with a much better executed balance than UC4 on storytelling with enough exposition to fill the lulls but not enough to intrude on the action. However, it sold much less and Druckmann has already said he has killed Nathan Drake's story. UC4 was all about finishing Drake's story. I felt this was a response to the criticsm that UC4 receievd. Second best behind UC2, and only marginally at that.

The Last of Us 2 will again have great production values and be technically amazing. I don't think anyone will attempt to dispute that. We only have leaks at the moment so we will have to wait. But I think it's fair to it will be even more divisive than UC4, and for me personally it is leaning towards making the same mistakes and doubling down on them. Poor/Lazy bait and switch writing, expectations based on those leaks that look to manipulate or evoke a sentiment/feeling. However, I'm willing to park everything until it's out in the wild and we have legitimate user feedback.


The SJW stuff is again pretty much linked to the problems with UC3 (I felt this was the first time we saw technical achievements trying to cover up a mediocre game below), however I now see these being used to cover up average 'stories' albeit they are told and executed best in class in the medium of video games. And again, using a problem in UC4 (Where you had the pace of the game fighting the pace of the storytelling. It was offputting), you now have the creative aspect which is intruding on the 'authenticity' of the storytelling. It's offputting and dragging people out the immersion of the game. I can;t say too much but I explained why in the leaks thread certain decision just destroy your world building.


Naughty Dog are probably at the top of their game in technical proficiency but I don't think they have a consistent enough track record that distinguishes them from other 1st party studio's. For example, I feel SSM are head and shoulders above Naughty Dog. They aren't riding the crest of an unsuppressable upwards trajectory. I honestly feel a lot of pushback is purely against the arrogance and ego the studio has right now.

 

[GenericUser]

The graphics are good though

the graphics are usually awesome.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Haters gonna hate.

People get mad that a developer that doesn't make their favorite games gets so much attention and so they go out there and fight for it. It's petty but what you wanna do about it? Typical human behavior.

 

[bad guy]

Yes. Next meeting is tomorrow night at the concert hall at the usual time.

 

[martino]

Someone is too emotionally concerned.
It's a game studio, it won't really matter and in a bizarro universe where this killed them talent will simply go elsewhere.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

Spoiler

Joel isnt a hero.

Spoiler

But anyways yea some people might be upset about the story. Most are just upset theres a female with muscles (whose sexual orientation isnt a central point of the story, Ellies isnt) They prefer their views, where these people dont exist in games even tho they exist in real life. They are quite stupid. Having characters of different backgrounds is an ATTACK on me. If everyone is selling vanilla ice cream. But one shop starts selling chocolate. And their agenda is to make chocolate a normal option. HOW DARE THEY. I cant wait till TLoU2 and Cyberpunk come out. I dont think theyve noticed Cyberpunk is woke as fuck.

The trolls will have their memes till the game comes out. Most people are indifferent about the story. They just want that sweet gameplay, animations, and atmosphere. The story can be as trash as most video game stories are.

^doesnt matter. That sweet E3 demo got me to buy the first one. This video convinced me to buy this one.

 

[CJ_75]

I buy a console to play Naughty Dog games. Everything they touch now, turns into gold.
They have set the bar extremely high with Uncharted and TLOU. Yes, they are linear games but that is a good thing considering we live in a world that every company seems to think Open World games is what every gamer wants. No, I want a great cinematic experience and no other company is able to that as good as ND.

 

[Knch]

Uncharted is just Tomb Raider without the tits (and ass, we still have ass in the new one, yes?) and TLOU is just another survival game. They look pretty, but it's nothing new.

 

[martino]

But anyways yea some people might be upset about the story. Most are just upset theres a female with muscles (whose sexual orientation isnt a central point of the story, Ellies isnt) They prefer their views, where these people dont exist in games even tho they exist in real life. They are quite stupid. Having characters of different backgrounds is an ATTACK on me. If everyone is selling vanilla ice cream. But one shop starts selling chocolate. And their agenda is to make chocolate a normal option. HOW DARE THEY. I cant wait till TLoU2 and Cyberpunk come out. I dont think theyve noticed Cyberpunk is woke as fuck.

Your read on the situation is simplistic and hyperbolic the other way.
Most criticism I've seen is not about accepting existence of a woman bodybuilder in games but more of the quality of writing to put such character in a post apocalyptic world.
Not because of politic agenda in one way or another but because of the lore and its coherency.
I'm still curious because they re can be a how and why in the story to change the perception of it.
But without it, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Nemesisuuu]

For me - TLOU was great, I even agree with the scores it got, but on the other hand Uncharted series is a solid 7 in my book (I can understand why people love it) and it never really clicked with me, find it boring. Still, my favourite game by Naughty Dog is Crash Team Racing. Been playing CTR in split screen with my friends for almost 15 years since release. Somehow stopped at the beginning of current gen, CTR Remake we didn't even try to play in split screen, finished story mode and never touched it again.

I would not say ND is overrated (maybe a little), their games are masterfully made. They're extremely good at what they're doing.

But, we will see how it's gonna end with TLOU2, I didn't check any leaks. Hopefully the story isn't trash.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

Concerted? Please.

1. Naughty Dog is overrated. Yet the millions who play their games including the majority of critics absolutely love their games, should we pander to the minority who do not love their games and give their games 7 and 8's to appease such a crowd.

Hint: critics aren't unbiased. They never were, but in the age of social media they have to cater to their readers' taste and expectations more than ever. They work for fame, publicity, social points. Even controversial viewpoints are almost always clickbait and accurately timed to cause a shitstorm when most major outlets have praised a game to very high Metascores.

You'll never see an opinion such as "TLOU2 is not the game PS4 needs now" or such buffoonery because "critics" know perfectly well their audience and what idols can and cannot be tainted.

4. Naughty and their directors are trying to push this SJW way of thinking on me: No they are not, you are not forced to buy, you are not forced to let your kids play their games if you think they will turn lesbian or gay after a playthrough. As if such people don't exist right in front of their faces everyday.

Why, then, are big-chested, scantily-clad Japanese characters designed in a completely unrealistic style never allowed the "you are not forced to buy" excuse to exist? Why do the people who are going to love some of ND's choices for TLOU2 the most, not want such characters to even exist in a human being's mind and must bitch, bitch, bitch all day, every day, to have those characters canceled? Because of course Ellie is not going to turn anyone gay (this can't happen anyway, right?), but Senran Kagura is going to turn your teenage son into a misogynist for life!

I guess there's some people who'd love ND to make a critical and commercial failure because schadenfreude. People love seeing the giants fall. But don't worry, TLOU2 is a guaranteed blockbuster, it will review magnificently, and ND isn't going anywhere.

 

[Clear]

All that's happened is they've become a convenient lightning rod for several groups looking too push their own agenda/narrative.

To be specific:

1. Platform warriors. ND is Sony's flagship studio and as such present a tempting target to be taken down, particularly on the cusp of a new generation. Every GOTY nomination and win ND gets is like a nail in the heart to to these losers, too dumb to realize that the things "holding back" their platform of choice are not what the other team is doing.

2. Anti-SJW/"Woke" activists. These guys are going after Druckmann the same way the leftists went after Vavra and Soret. They won't accept that fact, the same way the leftiists refused to accept that their similarity to the religious right back in the 80's.

They justify their shitty behavior and attitiudes to themelves as a neccessary step to defeating ideological opponents who pose an existential threat to civilization.

Sound familiar? It should do. cos they are all the same, and they all suck.

3. Assorted hangers-on and opportunists. The most notable of which are the Jim Stirlings of this world, the types who like to make a big stink over issues and ask you to feed the tips jar on the way out. Whores basically. The most obnoxious part of the schtick however is the way that they always (fraudulently) assume the moral high-ground. Those people are always terrible... protest them its the right thing to do. Like and subscribe. Fakes.

4. The last group are inflamed fanboys/fangirls who mistakenly believe they have a greater ownership of the IP they are attached to than its creators. Basically obsessives who in many cases demonstrate a tenuous grasp on reality. Their defining (unpleasant) trait however is the way that they demand that their whims are catered to, and that failure to do so constitutes betrayal. Deranged and fevered egotists that they are.

These groups aren't discrete and there's a lot of overlap (think venn-diagram) however the commonality between all of them is that they are desperate to impose their collective wills on the world and are more than ready to torch anyone who stands in their way.

Cunts basically.

 

[Dacon]

Some people are just fans who loved the first game, who were tempted into looking at the leaks bc the game got pushed back AGAIN.

They read the leaks and were just so disappointed in what they read they starting lashing out about it.

I myself was looking forward to the game for a while, as a big fan of the first, but the more stuff I read and saw the less interested I was.

Then the leaks happened, and I've decided to just stick to the first game. I didn't think TLOU needed a sequel, and I think the first game is a perfect place to stop.

 

[SirTerry-T]

I just get slightly tired of Naughty Dog being seen as these bastions of "pushing the medium" and coming across as slightly sniffy and dismissive in the process and to be fair, they aren't the only ones. The whole "games is a serious art" thing is bollocks. Video games are just that...games, a way of blowing off steam and escaping from the fact that your freezer need refilling, the dog needs a walk and you kids need help with their homework.
Play the damned things and move onto the next one, and stop the blind hero worship.

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

That's Nintendo

You can actually make a case that Nintendo created the modern console market as we know it considering they pulled the industry back from the brink in '85. They've constantly innovated in terms of hardware and control schemes since too.

They've also been instrumental in the design and polish of several genres and had many, many more games and many, many more critically acclaimed games over the past 35 years compared to Naughty Dog.

I'm not knocking ND. I really enjoy their games and think they're at the absolute peak of the industry in terms of visuals, micro details and animation imo. Really looking forward to TLOU II.

 

[Hostile_18]

I just get slightly tired of Naughty Dog being seen as these bastions of "pushing the medium" and coming across as slightly sniffy and dismissive in the process and to be fair, they aren't the only ones. The whole "games is a serious art" thing is bollocks. Video games are just that...games, a way of blowing off steam and escaping from the fact that your freezer need refilling, the dog needs a walk and you kids need help with their homework.
Play the damned things and move onto the next one, and stop the blind hero worship.

I respect your opinion but are films not art as well? Plus I don't think just playing once and them moving onto the next thing is my style either. I've replayed Naughty Dog games (and others) loads, can't beat going back to an old classic.

Perhaps it's the genre you play, but for Horror games say theres a reason people keep going back to Resident Evil 4 and Silent Hill 2 etc. All games are not created equally.

 

[Lanrutcon]

Wow.

Maybe you should re-evaluate your life, OP. The urges that led you to create this thread? Possible signs that you need to get out more. ND will be fine.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Your argument is valid if you assume that both sides of the argument are of equal merit, but they're not.

No, that is not it. Not at all. The argument by the fanatics in the SJW mix and the W part of the word SJW is exactly the part that is tainted in the fanatics in the anti-SJW camp ("similar" irony in the antifa field: they adopt similar methods and patterns but that is ok as... well.., "fascism" is not of equal merit now, is it?).

Arguing against excess and zealotry does not justify you to use the same tactics and treat everyone as guilty by association and take a warrior like "with us or against us / part of the problem or part of the solution" mentality.
Exaggerating, twisting facts and bending the truth, and most of all seeking to protect the group and fight for the anti-SJW identity banner is playing identity politics. Sure, you will say "standing for what is right", but that is the same thing the fanatics on the SJW side are saying.

One is attempting to dismantle social structures that have evolved over many thousands of years; the other is attempting to preserve them. It's the difference between attacking and defending, and who started it does indeed matter in spite of what our children are taught these days.

I'm in favour of social progress (see: change) where necessary as a result of technological change, e.g. automation of traditionally feminine tasks in the home enabling the transition of women to the external workplace, but it has to be accompanied by a critical understanding of why the traditional social structures exist. That's not what is happening with these post-modern radicals who want to selfishly bend society to their own personal whim irrespective of collateral damage.

Sure and there are reactionary radicals afraid of change and would like thins not to evolve further. It is not like universal suffrage was not fought with a similar level of vitriol and doom and gloom as some of the issues people are discussing nowadays.

I think you make good points, but I am not really seeing much in the analysis of the current societal structure and why it evolved in the way it did and how it can evolve further. I "mostly" see people fighting to either keep it as how they perceive "it is" and people fighting to tear it down and replace it with an equally handwaving and thinly defined utopia.

If you still have religious bigotry, why should this be banned from games? If you want to have a lesbian, queer, etc... as main protagonist... can you have it without an uproar and anti-SJW warriors trying to tear it down?

Of course crappy content made just for political propaganda is an issue, but I have not see yet how TLoU 2 is crappy, badly made, or badly told. Sad, unexpected, and maybe depressing for the fans of some characters does not mean crappy (Dogville vs The Last Jedi to quote two different examples showing this contradiction).

 

[Guilty_AI]

Naughty Dogs fans: "Why are people hating on my favorite games!!!"

Kojima fans: "First Time?"

 

[mejin]

You can actually make a case that Nintendo created the modern console market as we know it considering they pulled the industry back from the brink in '85. They've constantly innovated in terms of hardware and control schemes since too.

They've also been instrumental in the design and polish of several genres and had many, many more games and many, many more critically acclaimed games over the past 35 years compared to Naughty Dog.

I'm not knocking ND. I really enjoy their games and think they're at the absolute peak of the industry in terms of visuals, micro details and animation imo. Really looking forward to TLOU II.

Sony and Nintendo have being the paragons of gaming since ever. Nintendo started after Atari era with Nes and Snes. PS1 and PS2 put the gaming market for everyone. Wii brought the games for the non gamer. PS4 once again awakened the traditional gamer and now Switch is doing the same.
It is always them. Nintendo is just older than Sony in the gaming market, but they have as much recognition as a synonym of videogame.

When we talk about ND we talk about the most sucessful critically awarded first party developer over the past 12, 13 years. Their 2 new ips (Uncharted and TLoU) were awarded as Goty. They are on top for a long time and no first party from nintendo and microsoft had the same kind of sucess. This is a motive for console wars cause people are crazy.

Anyway, I do believe in cycles. Nothing lasts forever. If its the time for ND we can only wait.

 

[Guilty_AI]

but there were no TPS like the Uncharted series before nor after.

Name me a shooter you can plays like this (encounter starts at 2:50):

Just cause 2 & 3, Max Payne 1 & 2 & 3, Crackdown, Vanquish, Warframe, Tomb Raider, Sunset Overdrive, MGS4, MGSV, Gears of War 1 & 2 & 3, Earth Defense Force, Red Faction Guerrilla....

And yes, i've played Uncharted 2 & 3 and The Last of Us. Now, let's stop pretending those games have innovative gameplay just because of some small peculiarities shall we?

 

[thelastword]

Pretty saw the spoilers and aren't happy with the direction they took the story. It's really as simple as that.

I don't think you can really extrapolate an entire game based a spoiler video. I very much doubt the entire plot of the game was exposed and I'm sure there is some context people are missing. I really don't understand why people wont respect a studio enough to play through on their own before judgement or allow the reviewers you trust to give their verdict. People judging TLOU 2 now based on these leaks seems really forced to me, it's like they were never really interested and waiting for something to pounce on......Especially those who say they were the biggest ND fan and are now cancelling their pre-orders. Anyone can order a game and cancel it for whatever reasons, even fake that they are fans and give their take, the extremes some will go to. Yet, I don't see how you are a huge fan of ND and you know story is big for ND games and still went to watch spoilers. It's just does not make much sense, since you would want to experience that on your own playthrough fresh.

No, I thought ND was the best studio at making Movie type games. I hate them now after hearing the direction the studio is going. It's just not for me. I just won't purchase another ND game anytime in the near future.

Like this for e.g, if this is not sarcasm that is....

They are the top of their popularity. Top of their game was the Uncharted 2 days.

Their last two main games was 92% and 93% on Meta and they both sold boatloads. Top of your game means your games are reviewing well and selling even better.

I've been doing it for a while now, and I've become quite good at it. For me, it was the decline in charm that came with The Last of Us. I never liked Crash games, started with Uncharted 2, and have never seen them top that game.

Everything after Uncharted 2 seemed to have a layer of up-it's-own-assness in the story.

I tried to play through The Last of Us Remastered with my girlfriend. Compared to the holy gift that is Horizon Zero Dawn, TLOU shits the bed as soon as it gives control to the player in a real way. Terrible box moving, shit stealth, ps1 generation aiming, let me boost you over this wall shit.

Watching The Last of Us 2 train wreck with my reality glasses fully on has been the best thing to happen to Naught Dogs games since their talent started to fan out across the industry. God, the commradery that must have been felt on the uncharted 3 B team as you watched the TLOU pretty much suck every person you hate at the company onto one project. I'd go to the bar with those dudes, and maybe even choreograph a fight for the game so we could expense the tab.

If you don't like most ND games that's fine, but you can't judge a game until it's released. meaning TLOU2. Everyone is on about UC2 and it's obviously a great game, but know also, that many people love all the UC games equally and some people even prefer the other games as their favorites. My favorite UC game is Drake's fortune, some people swear by UC3. UC4 is a great game and many people swear by that. Some people think LOU1 is the best game ever made. The truth is, people's opinions on what is the best game is subjective, your take is. No one has any issues with that and your preference. The issue is when people believe they need to wage a war because of it, they didn't like some direction of story in one of the games and they pretend as if the gameplay in UC has changed and they cant play anymore.. One guy is even upset that Nadine beats Drake, these little things are meaningless as reasons to fight a studio...

I've no trouble with ND as a dev, they're actually one of my favorites.

And I don't mind politics and agendas in my games, even if I disagree with respective ideologies. But if you're going to infuse your works with these ideologies, don't think you can come at me and sling the most disgusting of labels and accusations my way when I don't embrace them. Especially when there is abundant evidence in statements, actions, and affiliations on your side indicative of you embracing toxicity and pushing that bullshit in the most ham-fisted and idiotic way possible.

That's not my fault ND, it's yours, and I'll tell you to get fucked and take a look in the mirror as to why people are so opposed to you.

What toxicity are you talking about? Are you saying ND is pushing toxicity, what exactly are you talking about? It would seem like they've committed the cardinal sin.

TLW you said you haven't watched or read any of the leaks, the leaks are the main reason why people are turning against ND. This thread is a bit pointless when you dont even know why the backlash is happening in the first place.
I dont think anyone is trying to say ND are not a good studio who make good games (although i still think Uncharted 2 amd 3 are way better than 4, and the leaks to me show that TLAU will be way better than the sequel).

The leaks is not representative of 20-30 hours of a game. People can buy or not buy ND games, that's not my issue. My issue is the reasons people give, how are you judging an unreleased product. People saying that the leak is why they went from the biggest fan to the most critical does not make much sense. You are so annoyed that you are willing to miss probably the best game this generation because you are against a certain story line or one snippet of the story arch. I would nto call such persons fans, they are only hiding behind that guise....

I'm all up for choice and people liking what they like, but there is no truth to these radical 180's......It's like your favorite/most anticipated movie is coming to cinema, you've seen all the trailers, all your friends say they are going to watch it and it looks great, but then when you get to the cinema door, one guy says to you, this happens in the beginning of the movie, the movie sucks. You turn and go home and say you are massively dissapointed, this does not compute...

Still, ND hate and people trying to diminish their games, their review scores, their numerous GOTY's, their sales, the graphics they push, the stories they tell is nothing new.....It's been consistent and widespread against ND for years. Cue any thread where people say UC4 and LL are the best looking games they've seen, an ND game is the best they've played or any thread where people praise ND or where they reach another milestone in sales. Hating on ND has nothing to do with the leak, it's mostly people hating on their success and the quality games they've been pushing for a while now. ND has always delivered on some of the best looking games, best reviewed and some of the most well received games relative to sales. Their characters and animation work and general tech has always been on point forever. Crash and Jak was just straight bonkers back in the day and it's the same now with their current games, pushing the envelope......People want to tear them down through poaching, such a big studio of course some people will be disgruntled, working at such a studio, the expectation from employees is high, you are not working on bad rats 3......So people want to see them fall because of that longstanding and consistent success, but sometimes I think we are against ourselves in this industry, our own worst enemies by allowing our console affiliations to set narratives in motion that we know not to be true. ND is a great studio, LOU 2 is their biggest game, they needed more people to work on it, it's not like all the good people have left, that's far from the truth. Allow the game to do the talking as opposed to smear it with "what I saw in the leaks" is the worse sin ever imagined, ND will never be forgiven types of hyperbole and fake news. Let people judge for themselves and read proper reviews when the time is right.....

Also, people should really read on other studios which had/have a high quality ceiling. Shigeru Miyamoto/Nintendo was/is no joke when it came to what they expect from their employees. You don't make the best games by just coming in and doing the normal 8 hours, you have to push beyond that. We currently have a culture, where people complain about everything, they want to do the most minimal tasks, hardly accomplish their targets, but are always at the forefront of wanting higher salaries and benefits.....This world is much too competitive for normal and underserving employees and efforts. You need drive and ambition and for people not to be lazy to succeed....I think the current culture of people simply "talking smack online and on Youtube" and getting paid, the social influencers, only fans, people mailing soiled panties have caused people to believe this is how life should work. Then of course any disgruntled employee who got the axe, discord goon or person with an agenda can go on twitter and wage his war/fud there......There is no shortage of avenues to direct an attack these days, and lets be honest, our so called game journalists are mostly Youtube people now, they love a controversial story and will even make mountains out of mole-hills to secure the hits.......Then LOU 2 drops and everybody loves it and it gets great accolades and the cycle continues....Then you say, but the leak said, this journalist said, this former disgruntled dev said...Yet by now, we should know that the level of honesty and sincerity within the vestiges of current journalism is long gone. It's all about the hits now and anything goes towards that end...

 

[Jon Neu]

NOT MY POOR NAUGHTY DOGERINOOO, NOOOOOOOOOO. THE CROWN OF THE SONY FIRST PARTIES CAN'T BE CRITIZICED, THEY DO NO WRONG! THEY ARE THE BEST OF THE BEST, STOP FUDDING THEM YOU SEXIST RACIST XBOT DISCORDERS!!!!

 

[Jack Videogames]

Good gamemaking doesn't translate to good decisionmaking. I am as much a Playstation fan as you, thelastword, but if something I like gets infected by the wokevirus, I'm sorry but I'm not buying and I will call it out.

If the unthinkable happens, the game is a bust and Naughty Dog goes under, there are literally hundreds of companies producing good games that can will take their place in my backlog. Once a game company believes itself above "fun" , they're no longer of value to the industry. Yeah I just said that.

Still, I'm not saying I will never buy TLOU2. If after release I read some trusty reviews that say "hey, it's not as woke as we originally thought" I will rethink it as I loved the first one. But things aren't looking well.

Thank you for reading my blog.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Popular things have detractors, and among those detractors are people who genuinely don't like it, but also people who are shilling against the brand/product, and also people who just like to troll and stir resentment.

 

[Dory16]

You speak as if Naughty dog was beyond criticism. As if the notion that a human being somewhere on this planet could have something not positive to say about their games or them as a studio was blasphemy. Bioware got massive backlash after Mass Effect 3 and they were widely considered supreme RPG gods back then. Why should ND be treated any differently?
I'll give you that the whole SJW backlash has a bigoted backdrop but I've heard a lot of it about the Outer Worlds which was just offering a story with various character genders and a different take on corporatism than what the conventional dogma requests.
Everything else is either self inflicted or fair game in my opinion. It's not a crime to think that Naughty Dog doesn't do everything right.

 

[sublimit]

Yes and no.

 

[Steve.1981]

I see we're now officially in the "overthinking this shit" phase of the current drama.

The bottom line is that the majority of people who saw the leaks, & decided to give an opinion, didn't like what they saw. That doesn't mean the game will be bad. It might still be great. But most people who've voiced their opinion on the leaks have been unhappy.

Then click-bait YouTubers jumped on the train, as they will do whenever there is drama to stir up for those sweet clicks, & then all the folk with "agendas" started arguing in circles.

Now here we are.

 

[Clarissa]

My friend who is a Nintendo fanboy wants Naughty Dog to fail so badly. He keeps telling me about how shit the ending is and how disappointed I'll be when I finally play the game because he's seen the leaks.

 

[prinz_valium]

No there isn't.
Yes their games are walking simulators.
Yet some people enjoy those kind of games.