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Israel Jails Teenager For Refusing Military Service

D

DiipuSurotu

Banned
”When I was little, I dreamt of being an IDF war pilot," says 19-year-old Noa Gur Golan.

Now, however, the teenager is sitting in Military Prison 396 near Haifa. She's been branded a traitor and a coward. It's not clear when she is going to be released, because she's being detained for refusing to do her military service with the Israel Defence Force (IDF).

Noa is not allowed to receive international calls. But in her answers to The Independent's questions, relayed via her mother Iris and aunt Michal, who were also interviewed for this exclusive story, the young woman provides an extraordinarily rare insight into what happens to young people in Israel who would rather face prison time than compromise on their opposition to Israeli policy.

All three women are keen to stress that Noa loves her country and is happy to serve it. But since the conscription process began when she was 17, Noa has come to the conclusion she cannot condone the ”violence and death" inherent in being part of a military organisation.
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A handful of people each year manage to avoid military service by proving they are pacifists – but after two hearings so far, this is a position Noa is finding it difficult to convince the authorities of.

Some pro-bono legal organisations which help defend conscientious objectors report that defendants are asked questions such as: ”Would you kill someone hurting a member of your family?" to which any other answer than ”no" is used as evidence of a non-pacifist outlook.
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Noa herself, in an open letter written before she refused the draft last month, says that experiencing the 2014 Gaza War as an adult working with children opened her eyes to ”the kind of atmosphere children in this country grow with. An atmosphere full of hate and fear. They grow up in a reality where violence is the norm."

As a result of her choice, she has been detained for a total of 31 days since 12 July – released briefly between military committee hearings before being locked up in Prison 396 again, where she shares a room with up to nine other women and can only see her family once a fortnight.
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More at: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...tinian-territories-hebron-haifa-a7887821.html

Lock me up if old
 
S

StayDead

Member
acm2000 said:
the country has mandatory military service, its her own fault.

whats the news here?
Click to expand...

How is the fact a morallly reprehensible country has military service her fault?

The government shouldn't be able to force anyone to join any form of military at any time.
 
N

nubbe

Member
StayDead said:
How is the fact a morallly reprehensible country has military service her fault?

The government shouldn't be able to force anyone to join any form of military at any time.
Click to expand...

as a citizen you are a property of the state
serve or move
 
A

acm2000

Member
isnt it basically training with career stuff thrown in?

its not like send them all out murdering babies on day 2
 
T

TheLostBigBoss

Banned
StayDead said:
How is the fact a morallly reprehensible country has military service her fault?

The government shouldn't be able to force anyone to join any form of military at any time.
Click to expand...

In the US it's morally reprehensible for mandatory military service considering there are no actual threats to the homeland with any conventional military.

Israel has no such luxury, even if you completely disagree with/hate their government on a wide range of issues (and I do).
 
A

aspiegamer

Member
I'm surprised this doesn't happen more? A "handful" isn't exactly many objectors. Fanatical nationalism is a hell of a drug, people. I'm not even arguing against service for self-defense. It's the... more than that that's internationally dubious.

Hey, EU! This would be an awesome chance for one of your members who are sick of Israel's transgressions to offer her political asylum and piss them off!
 
Monocle

Monocle

Member
Mandatory military service is wrong. Leave it up to the volunteers. There are other ways to contribute to your society.

At least give people the alternative of studying a trade or a language or something.
 
K

KillGore

Member
No country should force their people to serve in the military. I'm sure this thread will end badly, especially with gaffers who live in a country that has mandatory military service. They will think it's normal and fine I'm guessing.
 
Sunster

Sunster

Member
KillGore said:
No country should force their people to serve in the military. I'm sure this thread will end badly, especially with gaffers who live in a country that has mandatory military service. They will think it's normal and fine I'm guessing.
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this thread will be bad because Israel.
 
S

Solid Sora

Member
We have mandatory military service in Egypt too. It goes from one to five years.

To avoid it, it's a common practice some people go as far as cutting a finger or harming the sight of one eye...

Mandatory military service is fucked up. Shit like this should never be forced.
 
T

TheLostBigBoss

Banned
Sunster said:
this thread will be bad because Israel.
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You're sure making an effort to instantly shit it up!

For people who live/know about Israel, what's the feeling about it? Are there any polls on it recently for how people feel? Are there talks to move to a complete volunteer process like in the US/Europe?
 
A

aspiegamer

Member
Fanatical nationalism and the world's most powerful persecution complex (earned for a very wide variety of reasons) is a dangerous thing, everyone. Even if she can avoid service there's could well be a social stigma attached. It'd be awesome if someone with experience here could chime in.
Sunster said:
this thread will be bad because Israel.
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There's plenty of room for actual, substantive discussion on Israeli sovereignty! It's unlikely to happen here, you're correct.
slit said:
Even countries that allow conscientious objectors usually make you move Heaven and Earth before letting you off the hook.
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Good thing the white and wealthy can get off the hook in the US. We might actually have protests one day otherwise!
 
N

nynt9

Member
Yeah in Turkey as well you will be mailed if you refuse the mandatory military service. This is pretty standard in countries that have MMS. Now, the debate as to whether MMS should be abolished is interesting (it should), but this happens all the time in countries that have it, so it isn't particularly interesting news in itself. Even though it sucks.
 
M

Mesousa

Banned
Monocle said:
Mandatory military service is wrong. Leave it up to the volunteers. There are other ways to contribute to your society.

At least give people the alternative of studying a trade or a language or something.
Click to expand...

I think in most cases I agree with the first part of your post, but israel is a rare case.

Israel has to mobilize the youth because the nations around them would happily swallow them if given a chance.
 
L

L.O.R.D

Member
Same in syria,with some exceptions (if you are the only boy in the family,or you are a girl)
If not,you can also avoid going to military service if you go outside of the country or born in another country and lived +5 years, then you pay $5000 for your country.
 
Monocle

Monocle

Member
Mesousa said:
I think in most cases I agree with the first part of your post, but israel is a rare case.

Israel has to mobilize the youth because the nations around them would happily swallow them if given a chance.
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I think countries are ethically obligated to allow conscientious objection. It's perverse to treat civilians as government property.
 
Z

zbarron

Member
Monocle said:
Mandatory military service is wrong. Leave it up to the volunteers. There are other ways to contribute to your society.

At least give people the alternative of studying a trade or a language or something.
Click to expand...
There are less people in Israel than New Jersey. I have a lot of issues with the Israeli government but this is not one of them. This is something they've needed to do to ensure their survival.

In the US 1,429,995 is the number of active military personnel out of 323.1 million people. If those ratios held for an all volunteer Israeli military they'd have 38,000 active. That would simply not be sufficient for their defensive needs.

It sucks that it's necessary, but it is necessary.
 
M

moggio

Banned
zbarron said:
There are less people in Israel than New Jersey. I have a lot of issues with the Israeli government but this is not one of them. This is something they've needed to do to ensure their survival.

In the US 1,429,995 is the number of active military personnel out of 323.1 million people. If those ratios held for an all volunteer Israeli military they'd have 38,000 active. That would simply not be sufficient for their defensive needs.

It sucks that it's necessary, but it is necessary.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Territorial expansionism requires a lot of troops.
 
S

slit

Member
aspiegamer said:
Good thing the white and wealthy can get off the hook in the US. We might actually have protests one day otherwise!
Click to expand...

There is no forced military service in the U.S so there would be nothing to get off the hook from. Unless the draft was reinstated.
 
H

Hamster Plugin

Member
Finland does the same thing, it's not really news. If you live in a country with mandatory service, that's what you have to do.

However, Finland only forces men to the army which is a lot worse than Israel, because we're also pretending to be one of the most gender equal countries. This is also the one issue MRA's in this country are using to gain popularity.
 
T

TheLostBigBoss

Banned
moggio said:
People who think forced military service is anything other than massively cunty also think the humans in Starship Troopers were the good guys.

Like this guy:
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The issue is complicated because of the history of the country.

Both in terms of defensive wars and offensive wars (the latter the reason why people have major reservations with forced military service)

When you have a small nation with a small population, and the entire continent really, really doesn't like you (and you've already been at war with nearly all of them), then having a mandatory service to have an ample active service number isn't unreasonable, which was proven during the earlier wars.

But in the same breath, when you have a government that is literally trying to stir shit up and constantly expand borders for no reason other than to piss the other side off, then people are going to take major issue with seeing forced service to a state that is involved with probable humanitarian crimes.

Complicated issue is complicated.
 
W

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
StayDead said:
How is the fact a morallly reprehensible country has military service her fault?

The government shouldn't be able to force anyone to join any form of military at any time.
Click to expand...

moggio said:
It's her own fault she doesn't want to murder Palestinian babies, guys.

Lock her up.
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QuantumDerp said:
Well, whereever you lived, and the military service was mandatory, and the military asked you to kill/maim babies. Would you do it?
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acm2000 said:
isnt it basically training with career stuff thrown in?

its not like send them all out murdering babies on day 2
Click to expand...

moggio said:
Training for a career murdering babies, yeah.
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I love the fact that people think the IDF exists to exclusively kill infants. High minded debate coming down the chute in this thread, I can tell.
 
Turbo Killer

Turbo Killer

Member
Mesousa said:
I think in most cases I agree with the first part of your post, but israel is a rare case.

Israel has to mobilize the youth because the nations around them would happily swallow them if given a chance.
Click to expand...

Look at a map and tell me what country will swallow Israel right now, especially with papa USA looking after them.
 
D

Dadasch

Member
A great human being. I hope she will be rewarded in the future for this sacrifice she made.

She obviously knew what was going to happen and did it regardless.
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
That happens when you have mandatory enlistment. She should just do it, or Israel needs to move towards an all volunteer army if enough of their people want to.

This was pretty much the norm in a lot of countries, don't see the issue.

Randam said:
OK, think I read about dead babies in at least 5 replies.
What did I miss?
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Seriously, what the hell?
 
A

aspiegamer

Member
moggio said:
Yeah. Territorial expansionism requires a lot of troops.
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There's plenty of actual self-defense and deterrence going on. Threats against their existence are greatly exaggerated, but they do exist. It's pretty hard to refute that. It's the moderate human rights abuses and small-scale war crimes that make it dicey. This fact alone makes Israel a rather unique mandatory service.
slit said:
There is no forced military service in the U.S so there would be nothing to get off the hook from. Unless the draft was reinstated.
Click to expand...
Thus "one day." It's more likely than not to eventually happen in some capacity. I have no doubt the system will be extremely rigged as it was last time.
 
Z

zbarron

Member
moggio said:
Yeah. Territorial expansionism requires a lot of troops.
Click to expand...
Yes. That was exactly my point. I'm concerned there wouldn't be enough troops for Israel to expand their settlements. Exactly what I said.

This is why I don't participate in these discussions.
 
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