petran79
Banned
Not all who apply for Israeli citizenship go to the military.
Also Orthodox Jews are exempt from military service. They do not even have to work since they receive benefits from the state to pray and breed children.
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Israel Jails Teenager For Refusing Military Service
- Thread starter DiipuSurotu
- Start date
Not all who apply for Israeli citizenship go to the military.
Also Orthodox Jews are exempt from military service. They do not even have to work since they receive benefits from the state to pray and breed children.
Conscientious objection is a human right
Arresting citizens for using that right is a totalitarian move and shouldn't be defended by anyone.
Patrick Bateman
Member
Doesn't Israel have something like alternative civilian service if you don't want to do military service?
In what way specifically?
at no point did i say that, my post was a response to the person saying they do
This happens pretty routinely in Israel (though not commonly, if you look at percentage of the population that does that).
And to be clear, I'm not being sarcastic here.
Do you honestly believe that?
This is a very scary line of thought.
This applies literally to every single law ever. Congratulations, you have just discovered the big moral flaw of the state model. #anarchism
And to be clear, I'm not being sarcastic here.
That kinda besides the point, but Israel could move to a volunteer army quite easily, in fact, this is something that is pretty seriously debated in Israel. It's not getting done mostly for political reasons and a little bit because mandatory service allow the IDF to pay its soldiers way below minimum wage.
What the actual fuck?
Do you honestly believe that?
This is a very scary line of thought.
As a citizen, your government doesn't "own you", nor is that reasonable justification for imprisoning a fucking teenager for refusal to serve in the IDF.
Is this seriously something that warrants a debate?
Linkstrikesback
Member
Fucking lol.
I bet half the badasses in this thread who suggest that you should just move country if you don't want to go murder other humans still live with their parents.
purseowner
Member
Atrocious whenever and wherever this happens.
This is some straight up facist spiel from Starship Troopers I'm fairly sure.
See, as much as I disagree with military service, I don't see a problem with this. South Korea for instance allow you to go work in the police or for the council as community service to help and teach you things.
"Quite easily" is a strong phrase. Are you able to give me any articles to read up on this? If I'm wrong I'd love to educate myself on it. When I try to find stuff on if Israel could switch to a volunteer military all that comes up are links on how to volunteer in the IDF. Thanks.
Linkstrikesback
Member
They have some alternatives according to google but apparently simply objecting on moral grounds isn't enough to be exempt from military service
Patrick Bateman
Member
I mean if the country allows an alternative non-military service it's totally ok with me. But serving mandatory in military sounds kind of fucked up.
That's some dictatorship-like level.
They do, but Israel do not recognize political beliefs as a reason to refuse to serve in the military. In fact, they go out of their way to make example out of such people.
It's fairly easy actually to get out of military service in Israel for made up bullshit reasons, and it's especially easy for women who only have to declare that they are religious to not serve.
She is making a political statement here, she knew what would happened and she was willing to pay the price, and I respect her for that.
You read Hebrew?
Facism
Member
No idea if it's the same in The Turkish Republic of North Cyprus, but as a descendant of Turkish Cypriot parents, i still have to do MMS if i'm there for over 40 days or some such, even though i'm a British Citizen. Uncle had to bribe the soldier at the airport to stop me be taken away as we left for England.
Ivrit sheli lo tov.
No, but my best friend does and he'd probably be willing to translate for me.
This is like a summary I found of the arguments on both sides -
http://cafe.themarker.com/post/2941704/
It's not a great article, but it has links to some decent ones and a link to a university course about that very question.
Ofer Shelah wrote a very good book about the subject too, but he have since completely sold out, so fuck him.
30yearsofhurt
Member
You really drank the Kool Aid didn't you.
QuantumDerp
Member
But would you serve? It is a question of moral. I am not arguing against or for mandatory military service in the country you are born in. You have two basic choices.
You can serve, tell yourself whatever to make yourself better; that you are doing it for the country, the situation is complicated, that you "have" to do it in order to ensure survivability of the said country.
Or you can refuse to serve, but will be branded a traitor of your said country, jailed for however long the "law" state you would be, if not forever. You will be slandered, libeled to no end and no ways to defend against it, thus your life is ruined, but, hey you stood up for your choice based on moral.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
JIDF really strong in this thread.
I'll take a look into it, with my friend's help if Google's translation is too poor. Thanks.
There's a whole organisation based on this premise, it's called Breaking the Silence. It's accounts of Israelis refusing service or the horrible things they experienced while in the IDF.
http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/
If you read through the stories, you see how bad it is. There's a reason Bibi and his gang hates this group, because it shows how these are not incidents like they always claim. It's a fucked up military system.
http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/
If you read through the stories, you see how bad it is. There's a reason Bibi and his gang hates this group, because it shows how these are not incidents like they always claim. It's a fucked up military system.
Israel in a nutshell
Go break a bunch of laws and tell them "I didn't choose to be born here" and see how far that gets you.
hobblygobbly
Member
The very concept of freedom and democracy established this to be false and wrong, which is why we don't think positively of totalitarianism which is what you describe...
So yeah you're right if you believe and live in a totalitarian system where you are property of the state.
Breaking the silence is not about refusing to serve, and they don't call on people to not serve in the military. In fact, it's all people who did serve in the IDF, the whole point of what their doing is to let people tell stories about serving in the occupied territories.
They're still good people and it's worth reading though their testimonies to understand what the fuck is going in the west bank, but that is only related to this story in the sense that both them and the woman in the OP are opposed to the occupation of the west bank.
Fbh
Member
Does Israel not offer other options?
In my country it's also obligatory and you can go to jail for refusing but there are options for those that have moral issues with the military.
You can do stuff like community service or I joined another state organization tasked with helping people in the case of a cathastrophe (sadly my country underspends on this and overspends on the military)
In my country it's also obligatory and you can go to jail for refusing but there are options for those that have moral issues with the military.
You can do stuff like community service or I joined another state organization tasked with helping people in the case of a cathastrophe (sadly my country underspends on this and overspends on the military)
It is a weird requirement for citizens and even I had to register for the military in Brazil to keep my citizenship. Thankfully Brazil isn't going to war anytime soon.
That being said props to the lady for taking the consequences and following her conscious instead of just gritting her teeth and obliging this archaic law. We need more like her.
That being said props to the lady for taking the consequences and following her conscious instead of just gritting her teeth and obliging this archaic law. We need more like her.
Oh sorry, I thought they did testimonies about people refusing to serve as well. I stand corrected
paperboywriter
Member
isnt there an option on how to server in Israel? Is there really only military service?
Little Old Man
Member
Yeah don't they have a civilian equivalent?
DiipuSurotu
Banned
If it's anything like Turkey, you don't have an option, but you can try to (bribe, connections, luck) get placed in a borderline civilian position, like a clerk in a military office in a big city, or a chef, or an IT guy for HQ.
Who decides which laws are morally right or wrong and which ones are optional to follow then?
You do.
You already do it, we all do. For example, most people are generally okay with the occasional jaywalking but not with murder.
Even if you decide to follow every single law on the books, that's still your decision, the state cannot make it for you, it can just put sticks big enough to persuade you to comply.
It's illegal to discriminate based on what you did (or didn't do) in the military. Though in practice, people still ask about it in job interviews and that can hurt your future employment prospects, especially if your refusal to serve got some publicity.
Edit: oh, and there are certain benefits that only people who served in the military get, she will not qualify for those.
Cotton McKnight
Member
All Gaffers that are speaking harshly against a tiny country that contains the people that have been hated and discriminated against since the beginning of time: Go ahead and move to Israel, earn your citizenship, then talk about it like you know it. I'm willing to bet the that the majority in this thread don't have to worry about potential death crossing the borders to your country at any given moment. The constant threat of it's neighbors, is why there is a mandatory participation in the military, otherwise, the military would most likely be weak, and Israel would be overrun easier, or you'd see it's allies in more conflicts in the Middle east (well more than there are now).
On the other side of that, I wish the government of Israel could find a better way to work with their neighbors and non Jewish residents.
On the other side of that, I wish the government of Israel could find a better way to work with their neighbors and non Jewish residents.
I don't know the last time that happened. Maybe in the 70s or 80s.
When I did my service there were loads of people that refused, and nothing happened to them. They just told the psychologist that they didn't want to do it.
Nikodemos
Member
I see. Though I wasn't referring specifically to refusal to serve, but rather willingly pulling a Good Soldier Svejk and being dishonourably discharged due to repeated fuckups.
That sounds a bit Starship Troopers-ish. That is to say, fascist.
I'll give it a miss thanks.
You think that you have to have lived in Israel in order to criticize it?
I think that's a crazy position to take. Do you apply it to other countries?
diunxx
Member
Turbo Killer
Member
Thanks, I was about to post that.
That happens like...all the fucking time lmao. It's the law.
People who go to jail for refusing are doing it to make a point and to do things by the law, without lying. Most who don't wanna serve just fake mental problems/illness and get released after talks with a military psychiatrist.
People who go to jail for refusing are doing it to make a point and to do things by the law, without lying. Most who don't wanna serve just fake mental problems/illness and get released after talks with a military psychiatrist.
DongBeetle
Banned
Is this your first Israel thread?
If you have mandatory military service, you should have the option to let citizens do a year of volunteering in public service, at the very least.
It's still possible to criticize the law on moral grounds. Or do we have to be okay with persecution of gays in Saudi Arabia?
It's still possible to criticize the law on moral grounds. Or do we have to be okay with persecution of gays in Saudi Arabia?
Spiritual_Chaos
Banned
Being freed from it during "mönstringen" and not showing up if you have been selected to do your servivce, are two different things.
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