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[efyu_lemonardo]

So you're denying the military and racist general atmosphere of Israel against arabs in general and palestinians in particular ?

I mean, the fact that they are jews have zero incidence on the situation. I could say the exact same thing about Chinese in Tibet, i'm anti-Chineses ? I could say the same thing about whites in South-Africa, i am anti-whites? Zionism is nothing but an adaptation of western settlement colonialism. Since i'm against the latter, i'm against zionism.

It's really a shame to use the "anti semite" card so carelessly.

I'm not claiming there aren't major problems with Israeli right wing policy, or that the IDF is innocent of war crimes, or even that there isn't a serious problem with separation of politics and education in Israel.
But there's a correct way to make such arguments. And once you transfer the responsibility and blame from the leadership to every single citizen in the country you've crossed the line between political activism and blind nationalistic hate.
And since it's clear you didn't mean Arab Israelis are being brainwashed to kill babies, I don't think playing the anti-Semite card is such a huge leap. But if you insist I have no issue rescinding the claim in favor of the far more generic "anti-national prejudiced" or just plain "bigot" if you will.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I'm not claiming there aren't major problems with Israeli right wing policy, or that the IDF is innocent of war crimes, or even that there isn't a serious problem with separation of politics and education in Israel.
But there's a correct way to make such arguments. And once you transfer the responsibility and blame from the leadership to every single citizen in the country you've crossed the line between political activism and blind nationalistic hate.
And since it's clear you didn't mean Arab Israelis are being brainwashed to kill babies, I don't think playing the anti-Semite card is such a huge leap. But if you insist I have no issue rescinding the claim in favor of the far more generic "anti-national prejudiced" or just plain "bigot" if you will.

I never spoke of babies so you're just mixing everything you find shocking in this post.

Arab Israeli are obviously an oppressed minority in Israel, constantly suspected. It's obvious that they don't receive the same kind of brainwashing than the majority group. Again, jewishness here is totally accidental. The issue is militaristic and colonialist system. There is no zionist specificity.

I don't transfer the responsibility of everything occurring to each citizen, but i do think it's immoral to participate in an army that is actually occupying and oppressing another nation. I think that anybody have the moral obligation to refuse to do so. I know i would, even if i would have to move from the country.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I never spoke of babies so you're just mixing everything you find shocking in this post.

My mistake. Replace Palestinian babies with Palestinians. The point still stands.

Arab Israeli are obviously an oppressed minority in Israel, constantly suspected. It's obvious that they don't receive the same kind of brainwashing than the majority group. Again, jewishness here is totally accidental. The issue is militaristic and colonialist system. There is no zionist specificity.

I don't transfer the responsibility of everything occurring to each citizen, but i do think it's immoral to participate in an army that is actually occupying and oppressing another nation. I think that anybody have the moral obligation to refuse to do so. I know i would, even if i would have to move from the country.

But you've said just that. Do you read your own posts?
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=246051734

 

[TheSecondSpitter]

Please enlight me.

Please do your own research. I'm not your personal researcher.

 

[Kthulhu]

Eff that. If people don't want to serve in your stupid war, then maybe it isn't worth fighting.

 

[Fou-Lu]

I would prefer if no country felt the need for military conscription, but I can understand it for smaller countries (though much of what the IDF does is reprehensible so it's hard to support anything they do). Jailing someone who refuses on moral grounds, however? Complete bullshit.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

My mistake. Replace Palestinian babies with Palestinians. The point still stands.


But you've said just that. Do you read your own posts?
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=246051734

No it's not because you were conflating the antisemite trope about "baby eating jews" about my posts. If you think that saying that IDF is killing palestinians is an antisemite statement, you're living in a paralel universe.

And i didn't say that each israeli were responsable of everything that was occuring. Each Israeli who accept to enlist in this criminal army is accomplice though. The main responsable is the whole zionist regime.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

No it's not because you were conflating the antisemite trope about "baby eating jews" about my posts.

Sincerely wasn't. I'm sorry you thought that.

If you think that saying that IDF is killing palestinians is an antisemite statement, you're living in a paralel universe.

Said no such thing either. Perhaps there is a language barrier at play here.

And i didn't say that each israeli were responsable of everything that was occuring. Each Israeli who accept to enlist in this criminal army is accomplice though. The main responsable is the whole zionist regime.

Morally, you did.
Also, what is the Zionist regime exactly? Which people in particular are you talking about?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Sincerely wasn't. I'm sorry you thought that.


Said no such thing either. Perhaps there is a language barrier at play here.


Morally, you did.
Also, what is the Zionist regime exactly? Which people in particular are you talking about?

No, i said they where morally responsable of the choice to join this oppresive army, not that they have a collective guilt about the whole situation. So stop playing with my words.

And ths is not a language issue neither, you went berserk when i said that that anyone who join will support an apartheid regime and possibly kill an human being. So it's not the same thing as buying an iphone.

The zionist regime is the israeli state and institutions. They are the main responsable of the plight of the Palestinians. They are also guilty of forcing a whole generations to join a criminal army and to brainwash them through the israeli educational system. However, everybody have the choice to join or not, it's not like they will kill you. If they want a good life thanks to an oppressive and colonial system, it's their choice too and they are morally responsable for it.

 

[Dehnus]

isnt it basically training with career stuff thrown in?

its not like send them all out murdering babies on day 2

Some people don't agree with the military idea, others are pacifists and others again are refusing for religious reasons. Then there are those that feel that it is just to help certain political parties, as army life can also serve to indoctrinate you into the status quo or into extremer views that these parties like.

But nah... fuck people with morals that question the status quo, you'd go for Trump then? If he does it with "career stuff thrown in!". As "we need to invade Mexico!".

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

No, i said they where morally responsable of the choice to join this oppresive army, not that they have a collective guilt about the whole situation. So stop playing with my words.

And ths is not a language issue neither, you went berserk when i said that that anyone who join will support an apartheid regime and possibly kill an human being. So it's not the same thing as buying an iphone.

I'm afraid you're playing you're own word games with this "possibly" bullshit to suit your agenda.

The zionist regime is the israeli state and institutions. They are the main responsable of the plight of the Palestinians. They are also guilty of forcing a whole generations to join a criminal army and to brainwash them through the israeli educational system. However, everybody have the choice to join or not, it's not like they will kill you. If they want a good life thanks to an oppressive and colonial system, it's their choice too and they are morally responsable for it.

Give me names instead of this vague THEY on the one hand and "every Israeli citizen is an accomplice" on the other.
The problem I have is with the overly generalized way you choose to present your arguments. It reeks of bigotry.

Edit: also I'm sorry but I've wasted enough of my time on you. It's not my responsibility to teach you how to properly express ypurself when you choose to be offensive and condescending.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I'm afraid you're playing you're own word games with this "possibly" bullshit to suit your agenda.



Give me names instead of this vague THEY on the one hand and "every Israeli citizen is an accomplice" on the other.
The problem I have is with the overly generalized way you choose to present your arguments. It reeks of bigotry.

Edit: also I'm sorry but I've wasted enough of my time on you. It's not my responsibility to teach you how to properly express ypurself when you choose to be offensive and condescending.

It's the second time you promise you'll go, let's hope this one is the good.

And i says it again: every sane and adult israeli citizen who chose to live there and benefit from this apartheid system like if it's nothing is morally accomplice.
I have no problem saying that i would either do something against it, like many israelies have done and continue to support the palestinian people, or i'll leave.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

It's the second time you promise you'll go, let's hope this one is the good.

And i says it again: every sane and adult israeli citizen who chose to live there and benefit from this apartheid system like if it's nothing is morally accomplice.
I have no problem saying that i would do something against it, like many israelies have done and continue to support the palestinian people, or i'll leave.

What's your horse in this?
Clearly you're not just commenting from the sidelines here.
What compels you to repeatedly present yourself as morally superior to some people who are just trying to get by in a shitty situation out of their control? And why this shitty situation in particular?
I have to say you come off as a gigantic prick unless you are personally involved in some way and reluctant to reveal it.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

What's your horse in this?
Clearly you're not just commenting from the sidelines here.
What compels you to repeatedly present yourself as morally superior to some people who are just trying to get by in a shitty situation out of their control? And why this shitty situation in particular?
I have to say you come off as a gigantic prick unless you are personally involved in some way and reluctant to reveal it.

Lol man just stop it. It's getting really ridiculous. I stated my opinion and you're relying to character assasination (antisemitism, "did you have an iphone?", "what have you done yourself? etc..) instead of just replying with an argument or just accepting that i can have a view you don't accept. Also, it's like the third time you're relying on insult.

Why do you care so much if i think that the only right choice between joining IDF or jail or leaving, is jail or leaving ? I have the same opinion about joining any army currently oppressing or invading/destroying another country.

Just tell me, do you think that being part of South African army during the apartheid and the fight against ANC is morally acceptable ?

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Lol man just stop it. It's getting really ridiculous. I stated my opinion and you're relying to character assasination (antisemitism, "did you have an iphone?", "what have you done yourself? etc..) instead of just replying with an argument or just accepting that i can have a view you don't accept.

Why do you care so much if i think that the only right choice between joining IDF or jail or leaving, is jail or leaving ? I have the same opinion about joining any army currently oppressing or invading/destroying another country.

Just tell me, do you think that being part of South African army during the apartheid and the fight against ANC is morally acceptable ?

I think that treating people on a binary moral scale is reprehensible. And since this appears to be the main thing you've been doing ever since entering this thread, I strongly object and on a deeply personal level.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I think that treating people on a binary moral scale is reprehensible. And since this appears to be the main thing you've been doing ever since entering this thread, I strongly object and on a deeply personal level.

Can you reply to this question:

Just tell me, do you think that being part of South African army during the apartheid and the fight against ANC is morally acceptable ?
If you think that yes, you're fucked up. If you think that it dosen't but Israeli army is morally superior than the South African apartheid army, we disagree. Simple really.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Can you reply to this question:

Just tell me, do you think that being part of South African army during the apartheid and the fight against ANC is morally acceptable ?

The act in itself, in complete isolation, is obviously not.
The fact that you so strongly believe that any person's life exists in such isolation and as such qualify yourself to so quickly judge others when you have never been in their shoes is deeply repugnant to me and gives a strong impression that your understanding of morality is absolutist, highly self centered and dangerously underdeveloped.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

The act in itself, in complete isolation, is obviously not.
The fact that you so strongly believe that any person's life exists in such isolation and as such qualify yourself to so quickly judge others when you have never been in their shoes is deeply repugnant to me and gives a strong impression that your understanding of morality is absolutist, highly self centered and dangerously underdeveloped.

Great.

 

[Leyasu]

Mandatory service. Israel probably have their eyes on another state to obliterate and absorb.. Thus they need every able bodied citizen ready to intimidate, demoralize, and mercilessly crush the population. If you are not with them, you are against them.