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[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

All Gaffers that are speaking harshly against a tiny country that contains the people that have been hated and discriminated against since the beginning of time: Go ahead and move to Israel, earn your citizenship, then talk about it like you know it. I'm willing to bet the that the majority in this thread don't have to worry about potential death crossing the borders to your country at any given moment. The constant threat of it's neighbors, is why there is a mandatory participation in the military, otherwise, the military would most likely be weak, and Israel would be overrun easier, or you'd see it's allies in more conflicts in the Middle east (well more than there are now).

On the other side of that, I wish the government of Israel could find a better way to work with their neighbors and non Jewish residents.

This thread is about someone who's lived in Israel all her life and came to the conclusion that she can't condone violence, so what are you even talking about?

 

[ActWan]

If you have mandatory military service, you should have the option to let citizens do a year of volunteering in public service, at the very least.



It's still possible to criticize the law on moral grounds. Or do we have to be okay with persecution of gays in Saudi Arabia?

Sure. It's just funny that it's "News" and gets an entire article. And sadly only people who are unfit for military service can volunteer.

 

[Chichikov]

I see. Though I wasn't referring specifically to refusal to serve, but rather willingly pulling a Good Soldier Svejk and being dishonourably discharged due to repeated fuckups.

Here's the thing, you are not discharged because you refused, you're discharged because in the end, the military conceded that you're not fit for service. The IDF discharge a ton of people because they find them unfit for service, and it's not like it says "refused to serve" on your discharge papers.

That sounds a bit Starship Troopers-ish. That is to say, fascist.

Think more GI BIll, less service guarantees citizenship.
Well, kinda, it's also one of the most important tools that Israel uses to discriminate against the Israeli-Palestinian population (talking about those who are Israeli citizens, not the ones in the West Bank), but that's a different story.

 

[dofry]

Finland has:

- Mandatory service for men
- 6months - 1 year
- a choice of civil service for a year. (E.g. Elderly home, you can go home after work)
- if you decline both, you go to jail for a year
- women can serve if they want to

You don't have to go if you can prove you are physically unnable to serve (Trump leg boo boo), are over 26, have other proven necessary commitments that postpone the service.

I think these are at least decent options, but I would prefer a volunteer army. But being next to Russia that does not respect some borders is kinda making that a bit difficult.

 

[Carcetti]

The fuck is this shit?

Fascism.

 

[Mendrox]

You can/will be jailed in Sweden to if you are picked to do it, but refusing. Up to one year.

Yep was almost the same a few years ago in Germany too.

 

[Trail Guide]

Go break a bunch of laws and tell them "I didn't choose to be born here" and see how far that gets you.

The argument is not about allowing people to commit whatever action they desire without consequences. We'ere talking about a state forcing everyone to chose between military service or jail. The state imposes this choice right when a person becomes an adult with no resources of their own thus not giving them any real choice in the matter.

As an adult in my thirties I do have some choice as to where I live. The day I turned 18 though I didn't because up until that point I had to live wherever my parents lived.

 

[sheaaaa]

I spent 2 years of my life doing mandatory military service. It transformed me and made me an infinitely better person, and I'm happy I did it.

 

[Hjod]

Being freed from it during "mönstringen" and not showing up if you have been selected to do your servivce, are two different things.

Ah ok, I thought that people just refused during mönstringen, not that they got picked then refused later.

 

[zeemumu]

Well, whereever you lived, and the military service was mandatory, and the military asked you to kill/maim babies. Would you do it?

Sounds more like they become a pacifist in general, not just because baby murder.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

That happens when you have mandatory enlistment. She should just do it, or Israel needs to move towards an all volunteer army if enough of their people want to.

This was pretty much the norm in a lot of countries, don't see the issue.


Seriously, what the hell?

Do you know how many children this regime murdered in its last onslaught on Palestinians?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28439404

 

[TheWasTheJoke]

JIDF really strong in this thread.

If you're saying what I think you're saying that's pretty fucking racist

"JIDF" is a slur used on places like 4Chan against anyone who defends Israel and has extremely anti-semetic connotations

Anyway, Mandatory military service sucks and would scare the life out of me but the reality is that, at an abstract level, it is necessary and when it is you *have* to enforce it in order to maintain it's efficacy.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Yep was almost the same a few years ago in Germany too.

Yeah. But usually that didnt happen after the 90s. They just didnt care and the doctor wrote that you are unfit for civil service and military service.

They even asked me if I wanted to do it.

 

[Turbo Killer]

I spent 2 years of my life doing mandatory military service. It transformed me and made me an infinitely better person, and I'm happy I did it.

So? Many people have spent two years of their lives doing other things to become better people.

 

[Ullus]

If you're saying what I think you're saying that's pretty fucking racist

"JIDF" is a slur used on places like 4Chan against anyone who defends Israel and has extremely anti-semetic connotations

Anyway, Mandatory military service sucks and would scare the life out of me but the reality is that, at an abstract level, it is necessary and when it is you *have* to enforce it in order to maintain it's efficacy.

JIDF is a real thing.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

She should've claimed she converted to one of the ultra orthodox sects that get exempt.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

A quick google search says that they have an exemption for service (specifically for women) by claiming religious study. Not sure how accurate that still is. However I hate to say she should lie and use it, but maybe she should just lie and use it.

 

[Snaku]

as a citizen you are a property of the state

People aren't the property of anything or anyone. Fuck outta here.

 

[Tonedeff]

As a citizen, your government doesn't "own you", nor is that reasonable justification for imprisoning a fucking teenager for refusal to serve in the IDF.

Is this seriously something that warrants a debate?

Thankfully it doesn't, since I never implied any of what you're talking about.

 

[LiK]

Lots of countries have mandatory service like S Korea and Singapore from the people I knew during college. I think it's like 2 years. It's nothing new and yes, you will be punished for trying to avoid it. I think most of the time it's just training tho.

 

[SurrenderDorothy]

"Property of the state."

Dear Lord...

 

[kirblar]

Lots of countries have mandatory service like S Korea and Singapore from the people I knew during college. I think it's like 2 years. It's nothing new and yes, you will be punished for trying to avoid it. I think most of the time it's just training tho.

Yup. Completely normal for smaller countries.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

If you're saying what I think you're saying that's pretty fucking racist

"JIDF" is a slur used on places like 4Chan against anyone who defends Israel and has extremely anti-semetic connotations

Anyway, Mandatory military service sucks and would scare the life out of me but the reality is that, at an abstract level, it is necessary and when it is you *have* to enforce it in order to maintain it's efficacy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Internet_Defense_Force

Real Israeli government sponsored organization designed to defend Israel in every conceivable situation in the internet.

 

[haimon]

There are plenty of ways to not serve if she didn't want to go to the idf.

She wanted to make a point, and that's why she is jailed.

Israel has plenty of problems but just saying the idf is a bunch of baby killers is a fucking joke.

 

[rudger]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Internet_Defense_Force

Real Israeli government sponsored organization designed to defend Israel in every conceivable situation in the internet.

I've never heard of JIDF so I don't really have any skin in this fight, but your link clearly states this is a private organization and not government sponsored.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

as a citizen you are a property of the state
serve or move

Um

It's not North Korea

 

[Kickz]

the country has mandatory military service, its her own fault.

whats the news here?

Way to not get the point Einstein

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Lots of countries have mandatory service like S Korea and Singapore from the people I knew during college. I think it's like 2 years. It's nothing new and yes, you will be punished for trying to avoid it. I think most of the time it's just training tho.

2 years, every male does it, so everyone is on the same page when we get out. It's practically a huge nation wide bonding program.

 

[Kickz]

Israel in a nutshell

Indeed, spoken like the modern Apartheid state they are

 

[petran79]

That happens like...all the fucking time lmao. It's the law.
People who go to jail for refusing are doing it to make a point and to do things by the law, without lying. Most who don't wanna serve just fake mental problems/illness and get released after talks with a military psychiatrist.

Israel's military has a much more social and active role than in other countries. It is better integrated.It is not just switching guards like other countries. They even visit Holocaust Museum. Country officially is still at war.

Where things are messed up are when it comes to divorce. Only the husband has the authority to give the divorce papers. Women are powerless.There are repercussions of course but there are cases where hardline husbands prefer to get stripped of their right to travel abroad and rot in jail, rather than give the divorce papers.

Also contrary to popular beliefs,their education is one of the worst and undervalued when compared to Europe. 1 teacher for 40 students and teachers profession has not much respect.

 

[norinrad]

the country has mandatory military service, its her own fault.

whats the news here?

Stay in school kids.

 

[Psychoward]

the country has mandatory military service, its her own fault.

whats the news here?

...what?

 

[moggio]

Israel has plenty of problems but just saying the idf is a bunch of baby killers is a fucking joke.

They're a bunch of other unflattering things too.

 

[haimon]

They're a bunch of other unflattering things too.

And also a lot of good things... Like every other place almost.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

And also a lot of good things... Like every other place almost.

Yeah Israel is totally like every other places.

 

[upandaway]

A quick google search says that they have an exemption for service (specifically for women) by claiming religious study. Not sure how accurate that still is. However I hate to say she should lie and use it, but maybe she should just lie and use it.

There is (here), only ~half of them do it on religious claims. it's not trivial to get but for girls it's still a fair guarantee (if you're a healthy male you're screwed though). She could have done that pretty easily. Women who do end up in the military can also navigate much more easily than men to nonsense jobs that don't matter and pass by their 2 years that way. The army is really scared of girls' parents if they fight (anecdotally).

If a man wants to avoid army service a lot of times he'd end up in military jail, women have it much easier comparatively, so she's mostly making a point, I think.

 

[Rupetta]

Are the ultraorthodox still exempt? I was at the UN HQ two years ago and there was a demonstration of ultraorthodox jews in front of it against the state of Israel, spoke to some of them and they said the exemption had been modified or withdrawn?

 

[Cyanity]

as a citizen you are a property of the state
serve or move

Fuck this sentiment and the high horse it rides in on.

 

[Sesuadra]

Yep was almost the same a few years ago in Germany too.

in germany you at least had the option for a "social year" instead of the military service tho.

 

[gabbo]

The state needs to stop exempting the orthodox groups from service if they're so stringent on everyone else.

 

[YaGaMi]

How could you blame the person. We all know what the Israeli military has been doing to innocent people for a long time.

 

[RS4-]

I spent 2 years of my life doing mandatory military service. It transformed me and made me an infinitely better person, and I'm happy I did it.

Where was this? MMS in Israel would be different than Finland, etc.

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

as a citizen you are a property of the state
serve or move

What a wholesome post.

 

[FyreWulff]

conscription defense .... in 2017?

 

[Condom]

This is normal

 

[Randam]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/07/palestinian-baby-dies-tear-gas-inhalation-170709163516682.html

And that makes Israel a country of baby murderers?

Or just murderers

Fucking lol.

I bet half the badasses in this thread who suggest that you should just move country if you don't want to go murder other humans still live with their parents.

Srsly, wtf?

 

[DiipuSurotu]

And that makes Israel a country of baby murderers?

 

[Sober6809]

I didn't know the hate for Israel was this real.

 

[Orniletter]

the country has mandatory military service, its her own fault.

whats the news here?

.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I didn't know the hate for Israel was this real.

She said she loves her country..