efyu_lemonardo
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The vast majority of IDF soldiers never come close to performing such actions.
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Israel Jails Teenager For Refusing Military Service
- Thread starter DiipuSurotu
- Start date
The vast majority of IDF soldiers never come close to performing such actions.
TheSecondSpitter
Member
The hypocrisy in this thread is truly gut churning. If the person was in Switzerland this wouldn't have even been a thread (inb4 Switzerland doesn't conscript females)
On GAF it is.Curious.
I don't support the Israeli government but the conflict is far from one sided.
Never let logic, facts and common sense get in the way of a good debate.The vast majority of IDF soldiers never come close to performing such actions.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
The vast majority of IDF soldiers never come close to performing such actions.
Source about "the vast majority" ?
I mean between the hundreds checkpoints, the "security checks" and the patrolling in occupied area, you have one and thousand way to participate in the apartheid system as an IDF soldier.
The hypocrisy in this thread is truly gut churning. If the person was in Switzerland this wouldn't have even been a thread (inb4 Switzerland doesn't conscript females)
Switzerland is not trying to erase another country for the last 60 years.
Analyzing both side of the conflict and pointing out the faults of each one is pretending that there is an equality between them. This is not like finding the fault line between France and Germany during WWI. You have one population who took over and tried their best (and almost succeed) to erase another one. It's Settler Colonialism in a nutshell.
Herzl totally assumed that it was the case. That Israel should be the "vanguard of western civilization amidst barbarism".
This is the fundamental issue here. Not what happened in Camp David or in the Gaza Strip 5 years ago.
Herzl died 44 years before Israel was founded. The Yishuv tried to create a separate non-exploitative economic system in Palestine, relying on its own labour force. Even if Herzl saw Israel as European, the huge influx of Mizrahi Jews (who came in the 50s, changed the face of the country and quickly tore down the barriers that existed due to a heavily centralized State) made sure this doesn't hold water. Even because not even Europe saw Jews as European.
The hypocrisy in this thread is truly gut churning. If the person was in Switzerland this wouldn't have even been a thread (inb4 Switzerland doesn't conscript females)
So just your imagined hypocrisy then? No one has mentioned Switzerland.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Source about "the vast majority" ?.
Basic knowledge about how every army in the world operates, for starters. The number of people in positions of support vastly outnumbers those at the front.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Herzl died 44 years before Israel was founded. The Yishuv tried to create a separate non-exploitative economic system in Palestine, relying on its own labour force. Even if Herzl saw Israel as European, the huge influx of Mizrahi Jews (who came in the 50s, changed the face of the country and quickly tore down the barriers that existed due to a heavily centralized State) made sure this doesn't hold water. Even because not even Europe saw Jews as European.
Europeans jews theorized Zionism, they found the State and they are still the dominant ethnic group in Israel.
The modus operandi of the Israeli State is 101 Settlement Colonialism. You don't need to rely on indigenous workforce in order to do so. Also, non-europeans jews are overrepresented in the workforce and the lower classes. So why rely on people with doubtfull loyalty to the State when you can exploit those browners fellows who are loyal ?
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Basic knowledge about how every army in the world operates, for starters. The number of people in positions of support vastly outnumbers those at the front.
I don't understand how this invalidate my statement that enlisting in the IDF could possibly mean that you'll kill another human being.
Working in logistic or support of this army is de facto supporting the israeli apartheid. You make those murders possible.
michaelius
Banned
Before they changed the law few years ago in Poland I'd be jailed too for refusing service without one of specified reasons.
I don't understand how this invalidate my statement that enlisting in the IDF could possibly mean that you'll kill another human being.
Working in logistic or support of this army is de facto supporting the israeli apartheid. You make those murders possible.
Enlisting in any army could possibly mean that you'll kill another human being. That's how it works. Also, if you're an Israeli citizen what are you supposed to do? You enlist or you go to jail. You can't control where you're born, and you can't change the law.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I don't understand how this invalidate my statement that enlisting in the IDF could possibly mean that you'll kill another human being.
Working in logistic or support of this army is de facto supporting the israeli apartheid. You make those murders possible.
Do you need me to quote back your own words to you? It's possible to strongly object to a country's policy without claiming that every citizen not actively trying to dismantle it is immoral.
Zionism was a mistake.
The only moral choice if you are born in this country is to refuse to enlist, work with Palestinians to bring down this racist ethno-state or leave the country.
However, i recognize that those kids are really brainwashed into actually believing they are actually the victims. Everything is done to erase the genocidal aspect and the colonialist nature of the zionist project. "A land without people for a people without land".
l.o.l at people comparing this with Finland or Switzerland. Military service is not really the issue here, it's the status quo that they will make you defend during this military service.
This part especially stinks of hypocrisy:
If this country force you to participate or support those crimes, yes.
The best choice is of course to struggle against these. But it's not acceptable to have a normal life at the expense of another population.
Think South Africa. Is it morally acceptable for someone to live a normal life during apartheid, while this "normal life" was made out of the injustices lived by the non-whites ?
Europeans jews theorized Zionism, they found the State and they are still the dominant ethnic group in Israel.
The modus operandi of the Israeli State is 101 Settlement Colonialism. You don't need to rely on indigenous workforce in order to do so. Also, non-europeans jews are overrepresented in the workforce and the lower classes.
It is obvious that European Jews theorized Zionism, as nationalism is an European idea. This is a platitude. But "Jews" were not an heterogeneous minority, and were excluded and discriminated in Europe. So conflating those with "colonialism" - without a sponsoring country, keep in mind - is to erase particularities for the sake of the argument.
And for non-European Jews: it is slowly getting there. There is a sizeable number of Jews from African/Middle Eastern countries in the govt. But full equality in less than 50 years was not achieved anywhere in the world, I guess that is a very unrealistic expectation.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Enlisting in any army could possibly mean that you'll kill another human being. That's how it works. Also, if you're an Israeli citizen what are you supposed to do? You enlist or you go to jail. You can't control where you're born, and you can't change the law.
Not at all. If you did the military service in France from 62 to 90 you were assured that you wouldn't kill anybody. It was basically living in a military camp and learning how to shoot a rifle.
When you enter in a army which is in current conflict, you have a moral dilemma that does not exist in country like Switzerland or Finland.
Go to jail or moving out is the moral choice. I don't think it's excepcionaly brave also. I know some of your turkish fellows who did move out the country to avoid military service for moral reasons and i respect them, but it's not like they did something impossible or incredibly brave.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
It is obvious that European Jews theorized Zionism, as nationalism is an European idea. This is a platitude. But "Jews" were not an heterogeneous minority, and were excluded and discriminated in Europe. So conflating those with "colonialism" - without a sponsoring country, keep in mind - is to erase particularities for the sake of the argument.
And for non-European Jews: it is slowly getting there. There is a sizeable number of Jews from African/Middle Eastern countries in the govt. But full equality in less than 50 years was not achieved anywhere in the world, I guess that is a very unrealistic expectation.
Colonialism can exist without a sponsoring country, and also, Zionism was sponsored by the British then US, i.e Balfour Declaration, 38 billions US$ military aid and others platitudes you know...
How is the integration of Palestinians going on ?
Not at all. If you did the military service in France from 62 to 90 you were assured that you wouldn't kill anybody. It was basically living in a military camp and learning how to shoot a rifle.
When you enter in a army which is in current conflict, you have a moral dilemma that does not exist in country like Switzerland or Finland.
Go to jail or moving out is the moral choice. I don't think it's excepcionaly brave also. I know some of your turkish fellows who did move out the country to avoid military service for moral reasons and i respect them, but it's not like they did something impossible or incredibly brave.
I mean, not everyone has the means to leave the country, and people going to jail for refusing to serve isn't going to change the country's policy. Being born in a shitty country and not being able to leave doesn't make one automatically complicit to the actions of the country. You can resist in other ways.
TheSecondSpitter
Member
So just your imagined hypocrisy then? No one has mentioned Switzerland.
Learn what reasoning by analogy means.
The issue has nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Zionism, Palestinian human rights or the occupation of the West Bank or Judaism, but GAF decided otherwise.
efyu_lemonardo
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Why did France have a military during those years in that case?Not at all. If you did the military service in France from 62 to 90 you were assured that you wouldn't kill anybody. It was basically living in a military camp and learning how to shoot a rifle.
Why the need to learn how to shoot a rifle?
I have a strong feeling the only reason you bring up France as a comparison in this thread is to feel better about yourself.
Go to jail or moving out is the moral choice. I don't think it's excepcionaly brave also. I know some of your turkish fellows who did move out the country to avoid military service for moral reasons and i respect them, but it's not like they did something impossible or incredibly brave.
Please tell us about something incredibly brave you have done. When was the last time you gave up your life style in order to help out complete strangers?
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Learn what reasoning by analogy means.
The issue has nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Zionism, Palestinian human rights or the occupation of the West Bank or Judaism, but GAF decided otherwise.
Yeah, an israeli refusing to participate in an zionist army which is partaking in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have nothing to do with those subjects.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Why did France have a military during those years in that case?
Why the need to learn how to shoot a rifle?
I have a strong feeling the only reason you bring up France as a comparison in this thread is to feel better about yourself.
Please tell us about something incredibly brave you have done. When was the last time you gave up your life style in order to help out complete strangers?
Where did i said that i was incredibly brave ? If you give me the choice between serving the israeli army (or if France where to conquer Algeria again) or jail/moving out, i wouldn't think it one second. I don't think it's a brave thing to do, it's just about not being an awful person.
TheSecondSpitter
Member
You should learn more about conscription laws before you decided to run your mouth and embarrass yourself.Yeah, an israeli refusing to participate in an zionist army which is partaking in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have nothing to do with those subjects.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I mean, not everyone has the means to leave the country, and people going to jail for refusing to serve isn't going to change the country's policy. Being born in a shitty country and not being able to leave doesn't make one automatically complicit to the actions of the country. You can resist in other ways.
Refusnik in Israel have a big political impact. If half the people choose jail over army, it would make a change believe me.
Colonialism can exist without a sponsoring country, and also, Zionism was sponsored by the British, i.e Balfour Declaration and others platitudes you know...
How is the integration of Palestinians going on ?
Moving goalposts. Specially when the dynamics of British presence here was way more than the Balfour Declaration. The White Paper of 1939 effectively rescinded it, the Royal Commissions de-emphasized any kind of national entity for the Jews.
And Israel is responsible for Arab-Israelis, not Palestinians. For those, there are ups and downs. There is a policy of affirmative action and rates of Arab Israelis in unis is steadily rising, specially in fields of tech and science.
efyu_lemonardo
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Not to mention the boat-loads of Jews trying to enter Palestine that were sent back by the British - including people who managed to escape the death camps only to be sent back to Europe. That's some sponsoring of Zionism!Moving goalposts. Specially when the dynamics of British presence here was way more than the Balfour Declaration. The White Paper of 1939 effectively rescinded it, the Royal Commissions de-emphasized any kind of national entity for the Jews.
Where did i said that i was incredibly brave ? If you give me the choice between serving the israeli army (or if France where to conquer Algeria again) or jail/moving out, i wouldn't think it one second. I don't think it's a brave thing to do, it's just about not being an awful person.
Congratulations, it sounds like you already are kind of an awful person to be honest, and you didn't even need to be born in an evil country!
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Congratulations, it sounds like you already are kind of an awful person to be honest, and you didn't even need to be born in an evil country!
I'm an awful person because i would choose jail over serving a criminal army ? What is good for you ?
TheSecondSpitter
Member
Yeah, sure and be unemployable because you have a criminal record.Refusnik in Israel have a big political impact. If half the people choose jail over army, it would make a change believe me.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Moving goalposts. Specially when the dynamics of British presence here was way more than the Balfour Declaration. The White Paper of 1939 effectively rescinded it, the Royal Commissions de-emphasized any kind of national entity for the Jews.
And Israel is responsible for Arab-Israelis, not Palestinians. For those, there are ups and downs. There is a policy of affirmative action and rates of Arab Israelis in unis is steadily rising, specially in fields of tech and science.
Yes, it's not like there is a debate over their right to vote or anything.
UK made Zionism possible, even if they had, obviously, their own agenda in the end, it's why they made promises to both side.
You should learn more about conscription laws before you decided to run your mouth and embarrass yourself.
Please enlight me.
Yeah, sure and be unemployable because you have a criminal record.
Serve an apartheid army or having difficulty to find a job afterward or having to move out in any safer western country... hard choice indeed.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I'm an awful person because i would choose jail over serving a criminal army ? What is good for you ?
You're an awful person for believing circumstances out of your control make you better than others.
Yes, it's not like there is a debate over their right to vote or anything.
UK made Zionism possible, even if they had, obviously, their own agenda in the end, it's why they made promises to both side.
Palestinians vote in Palestinian elections.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
You're an awful person for believing circumstances out of your control make you better than others.
I believe that in the same circumstances, i'll choose jail or moving out. Of course, it's me. I wasn't brainwashed like most israeli kids to believe killing palestinians is a necessary and good thing.
Palestinians vote in Palestinian elections.
He was speaking about Israeli Arabs.
efyu_lemonardo
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I believe that in the same circumstances, i'll choose jail or moving out. Of course, it's me. I wasn't brainwashed like most israeli kids to believe killing palestinians is a necessary and good thing.
You're also ignorant to the point of being borderline racist, going by such statements, if it makes you feel better.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
You're also ignorant to the point of being borderline racist, going by such statements, if it makes you feel better.
Don't worry it don't make me feel anything. Good/Evil and racism are concept out of reach for any IDF defender.
efyu_lemonardo
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Nice talking to you.Don't worry it don't make me feel anything. Good/Evil and racism are concept out of reach for any IDF defender.
I believe that in the same circumstances, i'll choose jail or moving out. Of course, it's me. I wasn't brainwashed like most israeli kids to believe killing palestinians is a necessary and good thing.
He was speaking about Israeli Arabs.
Israeli Arabs can vote and are represented in the Knesset (parliament).
This gets complicated quickly. I'm glad I live in a country that doesn't use conscription but , if the trade off is that you serve for say 2 years in a reserve situation (where you will be called up on only when every single other serving individual has already been deployed) and you get a 4 year college program paid for by the state with no obligation to stay in the military afterwards ? That's really not so bad then.
Thing is though... this is Israel we're talking about , a country that has put itself at constant war with Palestine in particular , a state that would probably be mostly fine to just exist without so many issues but , Israel keeps trying to steal their land. So in this particular case , being conscripted is merely forcing Israeli citizens to be on the shitty side of a conflict (the aggressor).
So , yes, this woman is going against her state by doing this and because she's a citizen of Israel that means that she is subject to that countries laws - in this case that means jail time until she either surrenders to the military or is proven Pacifist or serves whatever the sentence is for declining mandatory service. It sucks for her , certainly but she knew what would happen and decided being in jail was preferable to helping an army she didn't agree with.
To those saying "what's the issue here , she's basically committed a crime" well, this is getting international media attention because it is exemplifying a way in which a supposed modern nation is backwards with regards to citizen rights. Don't agree with forced violent evacuation of territory stolen from another nation ? Well too bad , for that you get jailed. It may be Israels prerogative to operate this way but punishing it's own people for the easiest level of protest should be frowned upon by the outside world.
Other countries that do similar things such as south Korea get a pass because well, they share a border with the aggressive nation (DPRK) and have to be ready to defend themselves and , last I checked they aren't in active conflict with the aggressor in this case either.
Thing is though... this is Israel we're talking about , a country that has put itself at constant war with Palestine in particular , a state that would probably be mostly fine to just exist without so many issues but , Israel keeps trying to steal their land. So in this particular case , being conscripted is merely forcing Israeli citizens to be on the shitty side of a conflict (the aggressor).
So , yes, this woman is going against her state by doing this and because she's a citizen of Israel that means that she is subject to that countries laws - in this case that means jail time until she either surrenders to the military or is proven Pacifist or serves whatever the sentence is for declining mandatory service. It sucks for her , certainly but she knew what would happen and decided being in jail was preferable to helping an army she didn't agree with.
To those saying "what's the issue here , she's basically committed a crime" well, this is getting international media attention because it is exemplifying a way in which a supposed modern nation is backwards with regards to citizen rights. Don't agree with forced violent evacuation of territory stolen from another nation ? Well too bad , for that you get jailed. It may be Israels prerogative to operate this way but punishing it's own people for the easiest level of protest should be frowned upon by the outside world.
Other countries that do similar things such as south Korea get a pass because well, they share a border with the aggressive nation (DPRK) and have to be ready to defend themselves and , last I checked they aren't in active conflict with the aggressor in this case either.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Israeli Arabs can vote and are represented in the Knesset (parliament).
I know. I said it was debated in israeli society. So it's why it's funny to speak about the great integration of arabs in Israel while there is an actual sentiment that they shouldn't even have the right to vote.
We can also speak about the arab political parties being banned in Knesset like Balad.
AnathemicOne
Banned
Israel is fucking trash, should never have been propped up as a sovereign state after WW2
I know. I said it was debated in israeli society. So it's why it's funny to speak about the great integration of arabs in Israel while there is an actual sentiment that they shouldn't even have the right to vote.
Tbh teenagers say lots of stupid things. I mean: an average of 59% of Palestinians backed the view that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are justified in order to defend Islam from its enemies and 78% expressed support for the increase in Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank in attempts to stab or run over Israelis.
(http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-polisar-palestinian-public-opinion-20151112-story.html)
Not high-schoolers, but the whole society. Does that makes me lose total hope in a future where we can both share this land? Not at all.
Today I learnt that doing military service for a country that systematically commits human rights abuses isn't morally reprehensible
So basically every single Israeli citizen is morally reprehensible?
Also, the entire US military too?
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
People here are arguing what should be, when sometimes you have to accept what is the reality on the ground.
Israel could not exist without conscription and troops on the ground. The only countries they border that sometimes puts on a vaguely tolerant face are Egypt and Jordan.
Israel could not exist without conscription and troops on the ground. The only countries they border that sometimes puts on a vaguely tolerant face are Egypt and Jordan.
.People here are arguing what should be, when sometimes you have to accept what is the reality on the ground.
Israel could not exist without conscription and troops on the ground. The only country they border that even acknowledges their existence at this point and sometimes puts on a vaguely tolerant face is Egypt.
Jordan is also at peace with us.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I never knew there were so many experts on Israel and the IDF on GAF. Why aren't you guys volunteering in Palestine?
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
.
Jordan is also at peace with us.
You're correct, I edited.
I never knew there were so many experts on Israel and the IDF on GAF. Why aren't you guys volunteering in Palestine?
I think it's just people having empathy for something they're seeing on a daily basis via news etc. Else we can't comment on anything happening in the World outside of our own area?
Also I'd refuse to be treat as property of a state. Fuck that. My life is mine, I like living in the UK but I also don't like some things around here and usually the army is staffed by people who actually want to be there.
It's rather sickening to see the staggering amount of hatred and ignorance towards Israel merely through a face-value assessment of its conflict with Palestine.. or because you know "those Jews" from GAF's anti-semites.
With regards to Noa Gur Golan's decision, I commend her for abiding her by personal ethics. I think the state should respect that and release her, but I can understand why tolerating it would set a precedent and cause further recruitment issues for the IDF.
With regards to Noa Gur Golan's decision, I commend her for abiding her by personal ethics. I think the state should respect that and release her, but I can understand why tolerating it would set a precedent and cause further recruitment issues for the IDF.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
as a citizen you are a property of the state
serve or move
Lol what the hell is this fascist bullshit.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Tbh teenagers say lots of stupid things. I mean: an average of 59% of Palestinians backed the view that ”suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are justified in order to defend Islam from its enemies" and 78% expressed support for the ”increase in Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank in attempts to stab or run over Israelis."
(http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-polisar-palestinian-public-opinion-20151112-story.html)
Not high-schoolers, but the whole society. Does that makes me lose total hope in a future where we can both share this land? Not at all.
Nice whataboutism. I have no problem saying that the acceptance of suicide bombing against civilian target is an issue in the palestinian struggle movement.
But it's not limited to "high schoolers" They just reflect what the general society think. Most of israeli by large would accept apartheid measure, another study:
59% want preference in public jobs for Jews over Arabs
49% want the state to treat Jews better than Arabs
33% object to Israeli Arabs having the right to vote
69% object to giving Palestinians the right to vote if Israel annexes the West Bank
74% support separate roads for Jews and Palestinians in the West Bank
But listen to israeli defense force here, "we are making progress on the racial front"
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
It's rather sickening to see the staggering amount of hatred and ignorance towards Israel merely through a face-value assessment of its conflict with Palestine.. or because you know "those Jews" from GAF's anti-semites.
With regards to Noa Gur Golan's decision, I commend her for abiding her by personal ethics. I think the state should respect that and release her, but I can understand why tolerating it would set a precedent and cause further recruitment issues for the IDF.
Can you please give us the name of one of those "gaf anti semites" ?
Isn't tiring to always use the same argument.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Can you please give us the name of one of those "gaf anti semites" ?
Isn't tiring to always use the same argument.
"All those poor helpless Jewish Israelis so easily brainwashed into killing babies... Why I'm certain if I were in their place I'd know better!"
... ring a bell?
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
"All those poor helpless Jewish Israelis so easily brainwashed into killing babies... Why I'm certain if I were in their place I'd know better!"
... ring a bell?
So you're denying the militaristic and racist general atmosphere of Israel against arabs in general and palestinians in particular ? You're denying hundreds of studies on Israeli society.
I mean, the fact that they are jews have zero incidence on my reading of the situation. I could say the exact same thing about Chinese in Tibet, i'm anti-Chineses ? I could say the same thing about whites in South-Africa, i am anti-whites? Zionism is nothing but an adaptation of western settlement colonialism. Every colonialist system is dehumanizing it's enemy in order to justify the oppression and the killing of the colonized population. Since i'm against colonialism, i'm against zionism.
It's really a shame to use the "anti semite" card so carelessly. It's a big disrespect to jewish history in Europe.