I meant from the comments in this thread.
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Israel Jails Teenager For Refusing Military Service
- Thread starter DiipuSurotu
- Start date
What am I looking at here?
Supermanisdead
Member
Mandatory military service is tyranny, pure and simple. Fuck any country that does it.
Refusing conscription is the same as dodging taxes. It's enjoying a public good (in this case, national defense) without pitching in yourself. I support the right of people to refuse service for ethical reasons but they should face some form of punishment, even symbolic.
In practice, conscientious draft dodgers in Israel get a bit of jail time and are then excused from serving. It's not really news.
In practice, conscientious draft dodgers in Israel get a bit of jail time and are then excused from serving. It's not really news.
I'm not sure this works since if you pay taxes, you're paying for the military....
But other people die for you.
This is honestly one of the more civilized threads on Israel I've seen in a while.
bobbychalkers
Member
Hot damn at some of the responses. Starship Troopers was supposed to be satire not a guide.
Supermanisdead
Member
They threw a teenager in prison because she doesn't want to participate in violence...
TheSecondSpitter
Member
ITT: GAFers with NFI about conscription laws.
Captain Tuttle
Member
If she was an Orthodox male this wouldn't be an issue
That's the most bullshit part of this.
Refuse to serve because you're super religious? A-OK.
Refuse to serve because of a political stance? Garbage subhuman traitorous asshole!
My country use a raffle system to determine if you have to serving or not.
You pick black raffle = no need to serve.
You pick red raffle = you have to serve.
Even our trans populations have to go to the conscription station but they are not eligible based on their body and mind's ground.
Because only male population are allow to be conscript.
You pick black raffle = no need to serve.
You pick red raffle = you have to serve.
Even our trans populations have to go to the conscription station but they are not eligible based on their body and mind's ground.
Because only male population are allow to be conscript.
Yeah I wonder why anyone would hate a country that wants to wipe Palestinians from the face of this planet.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Nowhere on your link does it state it's government sponsored. It even mentions it is a grassroot effort. It doesn't even seem that large to be honest. It's almost like people use that organization as an excuse to say there is a Jewish defense force in threads involving Israel.....
sems4arsenal
Member
I can sympathize with that. Have Military service for a year starting next October and I'm dreading it already. Fuck that crap
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Unfortunately this way of thinking is naive and has been shown to lead to massive brain drains in military. For a country that depends on the quality of its military to survive, this option is not currently possible.
Not sure what the alternative is, Israel is a tiny strip of land surrounded by people that want them dead or gone. There's not enough of them for there to only be a professional army, so a 2/3 year draft for women / men seems the only option. It sucks, but if it means a secure and prospering Jewish state, so be it.
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
Fucking lol.
Palestine is a tiny strip of land surrounded by people who are succeeding at wanting them dead and gone.
Eh what hook are you talking about exactly?
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I strongly object to many of the Israeli government's policies and actions, especially when it comes to building in the West Bank and any other attempt to prevent the formation of a thriving Palestinian state.
From an historical perspective, however, the entire Israel situation is a lesson in reckless global politics. It's an even bigger mess the further you go back: centuries of antisemitism in Europe leading to a nearly successful attempt to exterminate a stateless minority while the world at large turned a blind eye (basically giving a gigantic "Fuck You" to all Jews at the time). Can you really blame them for founding a state that is almost singularly focused on its own survival, no matter the consequences? I don't think other minorities would have acted differently in such circumstances.
It's a lesson in history humanity is yet to learn.
Kite
Member
Taiwan also has mandatory military service cus of that lil mainland China issue, though there are some option to work for the civil service (police, firefighter, teaching in rural areas or working in clinics) and the really smart kids can do a few months of officer training and then work at a research institution for a few years. I think they are trying to lower it to all males have to go through basic training but the actual active-duty military is all volunteer.
It was somebody else's country though. I don't know why people are so blind to this. If I went back to wherever my ancestors came from 2500 years ago and tried to kick the people who had lived there for generations off the land I would be called crazy.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
The U.N. decision to recognize a Jewish state in Palestine, rather than some other less inhabited (or at least less contested) region of the world, falls under that whole "Reckless Global Politics" theme I was attempting to convey. I'm not sure Jewish leaders of the time would have agreed to any other solution but there still should have been more pressure on them to do just that (along with better alternative solutions).
I'm pretty sure you can be jailed in Switzerland too if you fail to turn up for recruitment repeatedly
If you don't want to go to the military you can just do civil service though.
The decision makes sense in the context of the time it was made in. Israel was far from the only questionable decision in terms of national border that was made post WWII. What's going on nowadays is on the Israeli themselves though. Peaceful coexistence would be entirely possible if people committed to it.
If you don't want to go to the military you can just do civil service though.
The decision makes sense in the context of the time it was made in. Israel was far from the only questionable decision in terms of national border that was made post WWII. What's going on nowadays is on the Israeli themselves though. Peaceful coexistence would be entirely possible if people committed to it.
AcademicSaucer
Member
It punished Palestinians for something Europeans had done
South Korea has mandatory enlistment for military training. It used to be 3 years. Then it was reduced to 2 years. Then reduced to 1.5 years. They're planning on reducing it again to 1 year. At which point you have to ask, what's the point? Korea isn't going to have properly trained soldiers to defend the country should a war break out.
Yeah it's not fair but when you were born/live in a country that's technically at war, it has to be done as if it was volunteers only, they wouldn't have a sufficient fighting force.
North Korea's conscription period is 10 years for men, 7 years for women.
Yeah it's not fair but when you were born/live in a country that's technically at war, it has to be done as if it was volunteers only, they wouldn't have a sufficient fighting force.
North Korea's conscription period is 10 years for men, 7 years for women.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Oh it's worse than that. It used Jews to punish Palestinians, in the process fueling new global anti-Jewish sentiment.
One of the key things people forget about conscription armies is that more than raw numbers, it is a lot cheaper because you don't have to pay your soldiers as well as you would in a professional army.
You also get the civilian training and skills of your soldiers for free.
Gen.Grievous
Member
Wish my country still had military service. Entitled brats these days expect everything is handed to them on a silver platter. No discipline, no respect for anything or anyone.
If 'not having to kill the people whose land you're occupying' is 'everything on a silver platter' you're damn right I want that silver platter. If anything, this woman shows more respect for people and the law by doing it. She didn't flee Israel. She just pointed out its hypocrisy.
clay_ghost
Member
Ha. Its not even a pay here in Singapore but an allowance of like 500 plus SGD for a private to corporal, officer have around a thousand SGD.
My allowance was around 400 plus SGD then. They said the allowance is low because food and accommodation are given and you will be in camp/base at least 5 days per week.
They try to avoid the term "Pay" because its not a living wage
Kain-Nosgoth
Member
in switzerland you can now refuse to do military service, but you have to do civil voluntary service instead, and it's longer! It's not great, but at least we're not forced to go to the military anymore!
not so long ago they did sent people to jail for refusing, that was freaking stupid! Hope she'll be okay
not so long ago they did sent people to jail for refusing, that was freaking stupid! Hope she'll be okay
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Zionism was a mistake.
The only moral choice if you are born in this country is to refuse to enlist, work with Palestinians to bring down this racist ethno-state or leave the country.
However, i recognize that those kids are really brainwashed into actually believing they are actually the victims. Everything is done to erase the genocidal aspect and the colonialist nature of the zionist project. "A land without people for a people without land".
l.o.l at people comparing this with Finland or Switzerland. Military service is not really the issue here, it's the status quo that they will make you defend during this military service.
The only moral choice if you are born in this country is to refuse to enlist, work with Palestinians to bring down this racist ethno-state or leave the country.
However, i recognize that those kids are really brainwashed into actually believing they are actually the victims. Everything is done to erase the genocidal aspect and the colonialist nature of the zionist project. "A land without people for a people without land".
l.o.l at people comparing this with Finland or Switzerland. Military service is not really the issue here, it's the status quo that they will make you defend during this military service.
efyu_lemonardo
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It's incredibly easy to tell others how to live their lives.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Hence the brainwashing part.
I think the same thing about french colonialists in Algeria 60 years ago, the good choice is not the easy choice.
Where are you from?
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
France, why ?
efyu_lemonardo
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So every person in the world who is aware of terrible crimes committed by their country and chooses to stay and try leading a normal life is immoral?
Curious.
I don't support the Israeli government but the conflict is far from one sided.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
If this country force you to participate or support those crimes, yes.
The best choice is of course to struggle against these. But it's not acceptable to have a normal life at the expense of another population.
Think South Africa. Is it morally acceptable for someone to live a normal life during apartheid, while this "normal life" was made out of the injustices lived by the non-whites ?
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Analyzing both side of the conflict and pointing out the faults of each one is pretending that there is an equality between them. This is not like finding the fault line between France and Germany during WWI. You have one population who took over and tried their best (and almost succeed) to erase another one. It's Settler Colonialism in a nutshell.
Herzl totally assumed that it was the case. That Israel should be the "vanguard of western civilization amidst barbarism".
This is the fundamental issue here. Not what happened in Camp David or in the Gaza Strip 5 years ago.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Do you own an iPhone? Do you lead a lifestyle that supports greenhouse gas emissions? Do you earn more than the median income in your country? Let alone globally?
Are you raging and demonstrating daily because of every injustice committed by society?
Get off your high horse.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
This is clearly the same thing as taking a weapon and possibly kill humans being to defend an apartheid regime for various years.
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