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[GigaDrive]

Note: Please do not quote whole articles - Freeburn.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=pub&aid=3489

 

[Ghost]

MS and sony should just merge, Sony wants all the homes Hardware + MS wants all the homes software = $$$ all round

And one less console to buy too.

 

[iapetus]

Allard's vision of the future of the console market is a vile one.

offering consumers a choice of hardware with different designs, abilities and price points, all of which will play back the same games

We already have this. It's the PC. And everyone knows the problems associated with that model.

 

[Ghost]

its not like the PC at all because the bit that plays the game is the same for all the models, its the extra functionality, like personal soundtracks, Tivo, Media Centre etc etc that he is saying will be extras.

 

[ravingloon]

And the other MAJOR difference is the PC has no license fees for publishers. If a standardized console was in effect, either the partners would have to charge a much higher price early on or agree to sell it for a loss /zero profit and make the money on royalties. And with zero conpetition, they could set the royalities at whatever they wanted and publishers would have zero choice if they wanted to continue business.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

It's inevitable that an industry standard for home consoles will be a reality. However, I think its only going to happen after the technology powering the console is so irrelevant that it makes no real difference from system to system. We're quickly getting there on the audio/visual front, but there's still a long way to go considering everything else such as physics, sizes of worlds, capability to drive limitless high-end AI. Probably in 15 years or so. Then, for this to happen, it would probably also need to be precipitated by one console dominating by a margin better than 90%. So it's going to be a long, long time from now.

For a smaller-scale industry standard, like the one the 3D0 was going for, it could be possible today. NEC, Nintendo, and Sega have all released their hardware designs to other companies for inclusion in their own products. I'd imagine that this is the more likely scenario for the next generation, as Cell seems to be perfectly suited for this. Sony, will, no doubt, take the scalability of the architecture to other products that include other features. PSX is certainly Sony's first stab at the idea of an all-rounder device that includes their PS2 system's functionality.

 

[Dave Long]

Of course he wants this. Then Microsoft can supply all the dev software and get every game dev in the business running Windows. On top of that, they'll be the ones to supply all the stuff that links this console with your PC. More $$ for rather easy software to make and maintain subscription pricing to.

Sometimes their ultimate goal is so fucking trasparent they should just come right out and say it. They want to turn this into the same kind of situation they had with IBM that gave them their monopoly power over computing in the first place.

 

[gofreak]

We can copy whole articles from websites? It's a little discourteous imo. Quote selectively, at most.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

dirty J Allard.

This disgusts me. M$ has no business in the console industry; their desperation at seeing all that money fly out the window (where do you want to go today?; pun intended) with the xbox is becoming rapidly apparently. All the talk over the last couple of weeks about XNA and the unified platform is just their attempts to get salvage this sinking ship. No way in hell will SOny and Nintendo agree to this so there. I doubt we'll see M$ around this industry come 3rd gen.

* old article though.. I believe this was posted a week back.

 

[Pug]

GreenGiant "The voice of Reason" NOT.

"M$ has no business in the console industry" Oh deary me.

 

[DopeyFish]

dirty J Allard.

This disgusts me. M$ has no business in the console industry; their desperation at seeing all that money fly out the window (where do you want to go today?; pun intended) with the xbox is becoming rapidly apparently. All the talk over the last couple of weeks about XNA and the unified platform is just their attempts to get salvage this sinking ship. No way in hell will SOny and Nintendo agree to this so there. I doubt we'll see M$ around this industry come 3rd gen.

* old article though.. I believe this was posted a week back.

lol. Oh how the people are hypocrites.

 

[gofreak]

One way or another, they're being highly unrealistic if they believe other companies will fall under the Microsoft flag in terms of standards etc. That said, I don't think they do expect that - I think they expect to slog it out with Sony over the forthcoming generations until they are in a position of overwhelming domination, and then they will *impose* their vision on the industry. At least they're giving everyone fair warning, and all of us good time to consider our next generation purchases in light of knowing where a dominant Microsoft might bring us (not that a dominant Sony would be particularly better, but heh..).

 

[TheGreenGiant]

I don't live in Wyoming

 

[MightyHedgehog]

At least they're giving everyone fair warning, and all of us good time to consider our next generation purchases in light of knowing where a dominant Microsoft might bring us (not that a dominant Sony would be particularly better, but heh..).

Well, I hope we're not going to say that Nintendo-dominated industry would be good either. Let there be competition. Otherwise, gaming forums, like this, would be a different affair. Of course, people would just micro-size it and beat each other down over who likes what games. Mario versus Luigi debates would reign...

 

[gofreak]

Well, I hope we're not going to say that Nintendo-dominated industry would be good either. Let there be competition. Otherwise, gaming forums, like this, would be a different affair. Of course, people would just micro-size it and beat each other down over who likes what games. Mario versus Luigi debates would reign...

Heh, we're not saying that - I just wasn't counting Nintendo as a potential dominator (don't lynch me! I am a Nintendo fan myself, just a somewhat pessimistic/realistic one). Though a Nintendo dominated industry might be slightly better than a Microsoft dominated one, given that Nintendo make games the very core of their business, but yeah, it still would not be good.

edit - If the industry is to have a standard, I would hope that it would be borne of a group of companies like DVD was borne of a consortium. That way, no one company would impose its architecture/standards/business model on all others, everyone would benefit equally, or in proportion to their success as game publishers. That'd really turn the focus on software competition and quality. I don't see either Microsoft or Sony getting together to talk joint standards any time soon though - both want to impose themselves, and more importantly they're business models, on everyone else.

 

[DarienA]

Of course MS wants a standard... that's their claim to fame standards and reaping the $$ from the profits... oh I mean when the standards is through their software of course.

 

[LuckyBrand]

some of the people ranting and raving in here is hilarious... i think there is still some anger from nintendo fans at how well Xbox is doing.

 

[Prine]

^^ Here comes the "LOSING MONEY" rants. So predictable

 

[sonycowboy]

Sony lost 1 billion on the PS2 in the first year;

Uh..., no they didn't. Try looking at their financial reports before you spew BS.

 

[LuckyBrand]

hahaha, yup...

But seriously, I see what J Allard wants to do, and he is actually into games, so I really do think he sees stuff as being good for microsoft, *AND* good for the gaming companies.

regardless, I dont think anything will happen right now unless gamers start pushing for it... i like the idea of a standardized console, it would last longer most likely, and allow me to get any new games coming out I might want..

MS is probably designing their next console to be so similar to Nintendo's next console, as to make it a easier sell to try and get them on XNA...

 

[kaching]

Industry hardware standards don't seem to come about too frequently if you wait for the hardware makers to sort it out themselves, they seem to need pressure from companies looking to capitalize on the new hardware to standardize. For example, there were two competing formats for the CD standard at one time but I believe that members of computer industry had to step in and ask CE manufacturers to create one standard or they wouldn't support it. Likewise, for DVD there were again 2 formats at the beginning and in that case it was the intervention of movie studios that forced CE manufacturers to agree on one standard.

So far, there hasn't been that kind of pressure on Nintendo, Sega, Sony, MS, etc. in the console hardware sector. You'd think that game publishers hold enough clout to intervene and ask for one standard but they haven't yet. Perhaps its the short lifetime of current console generations that leave no interest in this approach since arbitrating a conflict of standards can take years and cause new hardware to be delayed longer than is fiscally healthy for anyone. Perhaps with everyone starting to talk about extending console lifetimes they'll grab the breathing room they need for this to happen for the hardware iteration after PS3/GC2/XB2.

 

[akascream]

Under this new consolidated hardware, would manufacturers get to force developers and users to comply with a proprietary online network? Would this include MS?

 

[sonycowboy]

Let me rephrase that--SCE, as a division, incurred nearly $1 billion in losses in the first fiscal year of the PS2's going to market. This was, as I understand, acceptable, considering the "growing pains" associated with a system launch. I'm not spewing BS. Sony, as a corporation, did not fall into the red--my fault, I should have stated it clearer. The point is, it was worth it to a 65-billion dollar company such as Sony, for the profits that the marketshare and clout promised. The same goes for Microsoft, a 640 billion dollar company, to something, say, the tune of 7 - 10 billion over a span of ten years? The point is, to call the Xbox a "sinking ship" considering the strides it has made in only 3 years, would be as ludicrous as calling the PS2 a "sinking ship" just because profits didn't skyrocket on day 1.

Again, not correct. SCE lost $409 million in FY 2001. Every other quarter and fiscal year have been profitable since then. And overall, they have had a profit of over 2 billion related to the PS2.

The Xbox was not profitable in 2001
The Xbox was not profitable in 2002
The Xbox was not profitable in 2003.
The Xbox will not be profitable in 2004.

The point is that the Xbox is not profitable on it's own merits and requires the funding from it's monopoly to allow it to stay in business. If not for that, the Xbox would be dead, dead, dead.

 

[open_mouth_]

Again, not correct. SCE lost $409 million in FY 2001. Every other quarter and fiscal year have been profitable since then. And overall, they have had a profit of over 2 billion related to the PS2.

The Xbox was not profitable in 2001
The Xbox was not profitable in 2002
The Xbox was not profitable in 2003.
The Xbox will not be profitable in 2004.

The point is that the Xbox is not profitable on it's own merits and requires the funding from it's monopoly to allow it to stay in business. If not for that, the Xbox would be dead, dead, dead.

you've gotta spend money to make money... and in Microsoft's case, they're spending alot of money in the hopes of making alot of money way down the road. I don't see anything wrong with that, especially considering they've got a great shot at competing more closely with Sony next-generation (in the West, at least).

 

[DarienA]

you've gotta spend money to make money... and in Microsoft's case, they're spending alot of money in the hopes of making alot of money way down the road. I don't see anything wrong with that, especially considering they've got a great shot at competing more closely with Sony next-generation (in the West, at least).

Considering how much doom and gloom was thrown around when that one year of Sony loss was made public I find the above rationalization of 4 straight years of losses to be quite funny... kudos.

This is nothing new though, MS funds tons of money losing products/projects with the profits of the OS/Office division.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

you've gotta spend money to make money... and in Microsoft's case, they're spending alot of money in the hopes of making alot of money way down the road. I don't see anything wrong with that, especially considering they've got a great shot at competing more closely with Sony next-generation (in the West, at least).

Where's the logic in that? This has been one of the main defence of xbots/Microsoft fans for ages and it isn't working. Microsoft can garner revenues in so many ways besides the console market. They don't need to spend all this money in the hope of garnering revenues from a market, with their strategy which has so far failed them (profits; japan). Sure Xbox live is a hit with the fans but how much money are they hedging and continuing to hedge that the next gen will maybe be profitable? They know they need installed base and they know they need to go up against both Nintendo and Sony. Without Japan.. their success is limited. Sony and Nintendo have the Japanese connection that will serve them well; and Nintendo IS Nintendo. Microsoft has made a couple of really wise business decisions with their money; Bungie was one but the 1/4 billion dollar they've spent on RARE is looking really iffy. I'm going to reserve judgement on Conker cause I didn't like the N64 version; but Kameo honestly looks like rubbish. Returns on investment is what business is about and the xbox hardward model is not working; especially when its current success is due to Microsoft severely undercutting console hardware price to get the machine into homes.

The losses that the company is making on the console front is the reason why Xenon is being pushed, and why they're doing this XNA thing now. Its got nothing to do with bitter fanboys greeting this call but personally, as a multi-console owner.. I think if anyone; Microsoft should be the last company to be calling for a unified console.

 

[COCKLES]

Who cares about when MS make money.

As long as their bankrolling Perfert Dark Zero, Doom 3 ect to play on console, I'm not complaining.

 

[explodet]

I think when they talk about Microsoft making money, deep down they're hoping that MS will stick around for the long haul so that we'll be able to see Perfect Dark 2 and Doom 4 on consoles.

 

[Prine]

Who cares about when MS make money.

As long as their bankrolling Perfert Dark Zero, Doom 3 ect to play on console, I'm not complaining.

Exactly. Honestly, who cares

 

[Fujisawa]

Allard is a genius. See it. Embrace it. Love it.

 

[open_mouth_]

These "losses" Microsoft is incurring is seen as nothing more than an investment by them because without this investment, they would not be in the position they are today where they can arguably take a much larger % of market share (and potentially profits) away from Sony next round.

Time will tell if their investments pay off, but I for one think they eventaully will--big time.

 

[COCKLES]

I'd love to see a standard console.

Nintendo as it's premier developer.

Sony manufacutring / designing.

MS with Live / XNA.

Unfrotuantly this means >pooof!< GAF will simueteaneously combust, it's reason to exist gone.

 

[DarienA]

These "losses" Microsoft is incurring is seen as nothing more than an investment by them because without this investment, they would not be in the position they are today where they can arguably take a much larger % of market share (and potentially profits) away from Sony next round.

Time will tell if their investments pay off, but I for one think they eventaully will--big time.

^^^ Above post by open mouth = Huge surprise.

Unlike most other industries MS has entered the VG industry won't be won nearly as easily. The competitors in this industry aren't weak.... aren't already in trouble... and have solid plans going forward. Do they have a chance? Yeah... but an uphill one for sure.

 

[Kobun Heat]

EVERY video game hardware manufacturer would love a standard console.

They just think it should be theirs.

 

[Mr. Lemming]

I'd love to see a standard console.

Nintendo as it's premier developer.

Sony manufacutring / designing.

MS with Live / XNA.

Unfrotuantly this means >pooof!< GAF will simueteaneously combust, it's reason to exist gone.

Make it Nintendo manufacturing and Sony designing and you have yourself a deal.

 

[kaching]

Who cares about when MS make money.

Well, for starters, the people who were hoping to play Tork, Psychonauts, the next Oddworld game and TFLO. Then there's the people who were hoping for a sizeable HDD and BC in the xbox2, for whom hopes appear to be fading on those counts.

 

[Gorgie]

Well, for starters, the people who were hoping to play Tork, Psychonauts, the next Oddworld game and TFLO. Then there's the people who were hoping for a sizeable HDD and BC in the xbox2, for whom hopes appear to be fading on those counts.

 

[jarrod]

Again, not correct. SCE lost $409 million in FY 2001. Every other quarter and fiscal year have been profitable since then. And overall, they have had a profit of over 2 billion related to the PS2.

To be fair, didn't Sony Elec. shoulder a significant amount of the start up costs associated with PS2 also? I remember DCharlie & Singh mentioning something...

 

[Tellaerin]

Of course he wants this. Then Microsoft can supply all the dev software and get every game dev in the business running Windows. On top of that, they'll be the ones to supply all the stuff that links this console with your PC. More $$ for rather easy software to make and maintain subscription pricing to.

Sometimes their ultimate goal is so fucking trasparent they should just come right out and say it. They want to turn this into the same kind of situation they had with IBM that gave them their monopoly power over computing in the first place.

I think this is the first time I've ever done this with one of Dave's posts, but much as it pains me to say it...

IAWTP.

 

[Norse]

Why does everone talk of money? I thought it was the games that counted. M$ could lose mega bucks on xbox forever...it wouldnt matter. The company as a whole makes a few billion in profit per quarter. Whats the point?

I would love a "Standard" for the video game console. All companies could market their own as long as they all run the same software. To blast this idea just because you fear M$ being the one producing the tools used to create the games is silly. Who really care who makes the tools..the games are all that matters.

 

[DarienA]

Why does everone talk of money? I thought it was the games that counted. M$ could lose mega bucks on xbox forever...it wouldnt matter. The company as a whole makes a few billion in profit per quarter. Whats the point?

To put this briefly. On the business side of things it's not generally considered smart business to use your profits from one side to continue to a money-losing product on the other. The time table involved in determining how long something that continues to lose money is different for each company, and really doesn't necessarily have to do with "well we can afford to lose money so let's do it anyway".

MS has shown that they will kill a project eventually if it continues to lose money. That timetable however has varied greatly and usually has more to do with how the product relates to MS' current vision/goal/direction.

I would love a "Standard" for the video game console. All companies could market their own as long as they all run the same software. To blast this idea just because you fear M$ being the one producing the tools used to create the games is silly. Who really care who makes the tools..the games are all that matters.

There are lots of business application developers who would tell you that a MS business industry is not always a good thing. Strict licensing agreements, company's forced out of business, etc.... for end users yeah it's great because alot of compatibility problems are eliminated... for the smaller company's product a product or in a field that MS suddenly becomes interested in... not necessarily as good.

In the simplest terms using IE as an example(without going in to all the ins and outs), MS was able to crush Netscape by locking up licensing agreements and giving IE away for free. That hurt alot of good people.

 

[Norse]

True, but then again....IE is much better than netscape even today. So, as an end user, why should I care?

The end user is what all of these gamers in the forum are. They may speak as if they have a vested interest in all these companies, but they dont. Just play the games and worry which one you will buy next. Constant threads on who is making money is silly.

 

[DarienA]

True, but then again....IE is much better than netscape even today. So, as an end user, why should I care?

Simply put that's your personal opinion. That doesn't make it true... or false. And again depending on which developers, webmasters, etc you speak to, you'll get a differing opinion...

The end user is what all of these gamers in the forum are. They may speak as if they have a vested interest in all these companies, but they dont. Just play the games and worry which one you will buy next. Constant threads on who is making money is silly.

Vested interest is such a generic vague term. Does it mean money? Does it mean personal? Does it mean investment wise? Does it mean anything? To different people on this forum the answer is yes... and no to each of those questions.

If you don't have any interest in a thread discussing the financial impact/future of a company then why partake of that thread? Coming in it to call the people in it silly for talking about doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[Mr_Furious]

Monopolies suck

 

[Fujisawa]

Monopolies suck

Yeah!! Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play my new DirectX 10 enabled video games on my PC.

 

[Mr_Furious]

Yeah!! Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play my new DirectX 10 enabled video games on my PC.

Have fun enjoying it on your $100 OS upgrade

 

[Fujisawa]

Don't look now; that's not a plane that just flew over your head.

 

[Norse]

Have fun enjoying it on your $100 OS upgrade

I think Apple charges the same...and I thought they were the "good" guys.

 

[GDGF]

If Microsoft wants a standard, wouldn't they better serve the gaming industry by not releasing the Xenon, and instead backing either Nintendo or Sony? Just makes more sense to me than 'There must be one standard platform in the videogame industry. Therefor, we shall release a new platform in addition to the two that are coming from our rivals.'

 

[Norse]

Simply put that's your personal opinion. That doesn't make it true... or false. And again depending on which developers, webmasters, etc you speak to, you'll get a differing opinion...



Vested interest is such a generic vague term. Does it mean money? Does it mean personal? Does it mean investment wise? Does it mean anything? To different people on this forum the answer is yes... and no to each of those questions.

If you don't have any interest in a thread discussing the financial impact/future of a company then why partake of that thread? Coming in it to call the people in it silly for talking about doesn't make much sense to me.

Man, you are an ORNERY MOFO today. LOL