The refs are not letting defenses grab and hold players so far, which is why the Suns are doing so well. I just doubt they continue to do that in the playoffs. It turns into ugly ball quickly after the season and you get all the NBA's "enforcers" officiating the unwritten rules.
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January NBA Season Thread - A No Puddin Zone
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Cloudy said:No one but the Spurs
Yeah well going by that logic, the Jazz "figured out" the Spurs. The funny thing is I've predicted many times that the Suns wouldn't get to the Finals even though I am a fan, but I wouldn't start talking shit about beating them now until it actually happens. If your team is a big hotshot playoff team, then talk shit then, not now when we're smoking the entire league and no one is even close record-wise.
BatiGOOOOOOL
Member
AstroLad said:
:lol
You talk as if the Spurs have never beaten the Lakers in the playoffs. Plus, who is going to lose to these Lakers in the playoffs. No offense, Lakers fans.
And don't worry about the Spurs record. They start kicking into high gear until after the All-Star break. The team will be OK and still playing championship defense.
If the rest of the teams weren't so futile on the defensive end, they would've had figured out Phoenix by now.
BatiGOOOOOOL said:
Yes, one game means you have us all "figured out." I hope for your guys' sakes, you don't have to face Seattle in the first round, they sure have your asses figured out (two losses by a combined 25 points), not to menion the six other teams that have you "figured out" this year, including such world-beaters as Toronto, Memphis, Utah, and Houston.
BatiGOOOOOOL
Member
Those were late game letdowns against crappy teams and a Mac-Miracle for getting away from their defensive philosophy. That's what happens when they play to the level of their opponents, which is something I give credit the Suns for. No matter where they are or who they're up against, they come out to whoop ass. The only exception are the Sonics, who are the only team that have given the Spurs serious matchup problems and you can be sure that at this point I don't want to see them in the playoffs. I know SA can beat them in a 7 game series, but it would be hell.
But a blowout of monumental proportions(30+ points at one time) on a team that has been clicking on all cylinders offensively the whole season, is no fluke. Mark my words.
But a blowout of monumental proportions(30+ points at one time) on a team that has been clicking on all cylinders offensively the whole season, is no fluke. Mark my words.
http://boss.streamos.com/real/nba/promos/tnt_notag.ram
TNT Allstar trailer. Why is Melo on there? :lol
TNT Allstar trailer. Why is Melo on there? :lol
Cloudy said:No one but the Spurs
Eh, that was one game, and I was there. Suns, for some reason, decided to play a different style after the first quarter. It was disappointing, plain and simple. They decided to attack the rim over and over instead of relying on 3's in which they're so good at.
Amare was the only person who showed up that night and the Spurs couldn't do one damn thing about him, so I shudder to think of what the Suns would do to the Spurs when everyone's on the same page.
BTW, when I was at the game between the Suns-Spurs game, and the outcome was pretty much decided, all the Spurs fans around me were talking about one thing:
How to beat the Sonics.
It was hilarious.
I didn't even say anything, just basked in the glow that Spurs fans don't know what to think about them. "Well, unlike the Suns, the Sonics have way too many options, and they can shoot the 3 damn good," "We can't guard Ray Allen and that 6'10'' small forward whats his face," "And they're bench is equal to ours..."
Which is funny because the Suns are actually a better 3pt shooting, I believe, and the Suns, when clicking, EVERYONE IS AN OPTION. Suns don't seem, at this point, to have quite the bench as Seattle and San Antonio, but if they keep blowing out teams, I'm sure their players will get some nice PT.
I really think the Spurs caught the Suns on their worst night this season. I can't wait for the rematch.
How to beat the Sonics.
It was hilarious.
I didn't even say anything, just basked in the glow that Spurs fans don't know what to think about them. "Well, unlike the Suns, the Sonics have way too many options, and they can shoot the 3 damn good," "We can't guard Ray Allen and that 6'10'' small forward whats his face," "And they're bench is equal to ours..."
Which is funny because the Suns are actually a better 3pt shooting, I believe, and the Suns, when clicking, EVERYONE IS AN OPTION. Suns don't seem, at this point, to have quite the bench as Seattle and San Antonio, but if they keep blowing out teams, I'm sure their players will get some nice PT.
I really think the Spurs caught the Suns on their worst night this season. I can't wait for the rematch.
BatiGOOOOOOL
Member
Jettisoned by the Lakers? What series were you watching hater? The Spurs couldn't hit an open jumper after game 2 and lost on a controversial shot.
Plus I'm talking about the Suns, a team that's averaging like a 110 points and only two teams have really stopped them. The Spurs and the Wolves(when they were playing decent defense). The Sonics are not as prolific on offense, they're much more balanced, but they're bound to have a night off offensively, once in a while, even moreso during opening night.
As for the Suns game at SA, I know it's difficult for you to understand because off all the hate you harbor against the Spurs, but SA made the Suns play the way they wanted. The Spurs, when needed, can run with the best teams while playing their trademark defense. They locked down everyone but Amare. Who cares if Amare goes for 30+ if the other starters can't handle the D? It's not like they have any bench to help out.
And if one game isn't enough to pass judgement, why have you been creaming yourself because the Sonics have beaten the Spurs twice and proclaiming them the better team? How convinient for you that you deemed the night Phoenix faced SA, the Suns worst night of the season. Hipocrisy much?
Plus I'm talking about the Suns, a team that's averaging like a 110 points and only two teams have really stopped them. The Spurs and the Wolves(when they were playing decent defense). The Sonics are not as prolific on offense, they're much more balanced, but they're bound to have a night off offensively, once in a while, even moreso during opening night.
As for the Suns game at SA, I know it's difficult for you to understand because off all the hate you harbor against the Spurs, but SA made the Suns play the way they wanted. The Spurs, when needed, can run with the best teams while playing their trademark defense. They locked down everyone but Amare. Who cares if Amare goes for 30+ if the other starters can't handle the D? It's not like they have any bench to help out.
And if one game isn't enough to pass judgement, why have you been creaming yourself because the Sonics have beaten the Spurs twice and proclaiming them the better team? How convinient for you that you deemed the night Phoenix faced SA, the Suns worst night of the season. Hipocrisy much?
BatiGOOOOOOL said:
Yes, they were thrown away by the Lakers. I made sure to watch all 6 games as I simply cannnnnot stand the Spurs and wanted to see them lose. Yes, their jumper went south, but to lay the blame squarely on that fact is disingenous.
The Sonics aren't as profilic as whom in regards to offense? Suns? Well, of course. Who is? But if you're comparing the Sonics offfense to the Spurs...well, you have espn.com and their stats to help you out.
One game could be considered a fluke, which all Spurs fans thought of the Sonics blowout win over the Spurs in Seattle. Then Seattle came to the SBC Center and dropped 60 by the half. It was so bad that the Spurs had to employ shitty college tactics of full-court trap to throw the Sonics of their game, and admittedly, it worked, but only because players haven't seen that defense since their HS-College days. Even then, the Spurs were playing their game in the second half, closing the gap and bringing the difference to 1 with their much vaunted champsionship caliber defense and then Seattle broke through and ended up winning by a healthy margin.
I don't think many people realize that Seattle isn't only a effective jump-shooting team, but a team that isn't afraid to play Spurs ball and bruise people. They are, afterall, the #1 team in the leauge in offensive rebounding. Ask the Spurs about that...
Having said that, I'm greatly anticipating the Jan 30th matchup between the two teams. Spurs fans around the area have circled that game for quite awhile now...
:lol
Also, Spurs are very good at wearing teams down with their deep bench, but Seattle is their equal, or on some nights as proven at the SBC Center, leagues ahead. Hell, the other night against Miami, their bench accounted for 66 points. Meanwhile, Allen and Lewis combinded for a paltry 28 pts and they still won by 10.
One thing that does worry me about the Spurs, though, is the fact that their stars(Specifically TD) are averaging relatively low minutes. Tim, I think, is around the 34 minute mark. That is sick, especially looking at their record.
BatiGOOOOOOL
Member
Of course I'm not blaming it all on missed jump shots, but it was definitely the biggest reason the Spurs collapsed against the Lakers. They fell into the Lakers physical game, especially Tony and all went south for the team. I'm just saying the Spurs lost that series mostly because of their wrongs than the Lakers rights.
And obviously I'm talking about the Suns offense, I don't see any other team averaging 110 points. The Sonics offense is slightly better than the Spurs, talking about PPG, but as the rest of the teams, with the exception of Phoenix, it's much more natural for them to have an off night offensively. That's all I was saying regarding your comment about the SOnics loss against the Clips on OPENING NIGHT. On the other hand, the Spurs imposed their will on the Suns, who were blowing out teams left and right just before they played, just like they're doing right now. It was more than a bad night.
Finally, I don't even get why you're analyzing the Sonics to counter my posts. I've already said what a well balanced team they are and if the playoffs were today I wouldn't want to face them, because it would be a tremendous battle and the only team right now, that I believe could take the Spurs on a 7 game series, because of all the matchup problems and great rebounding they produce.
And obviously I'm talking about the Suns offense, I don't see any other team averaging 110 points. The Sonics offense is slightly better than the Spurs, talking about PPG, but as the rest of the teams, with the exception of Phoenix, it's much more natural for them to have an off night offensively. That's all I was saying regarding your comment about the SOnics loss against the Clips on OPENING NIGHT. On the other hand, the Spurs imposed their will on the Suns, who were blowing out teams left and right just before they played, just like they're doing right now. It was more than a bad night.
Finally, I don't even get why you're analyzing the Sonics to counter my posts. I've already said what a well balanced team they are and if the playoffs were today I wouldn't want to face them, because it would be a tremendous battle and the only team right now, that I believe could take the Spurs on a 7 game series, because of all the matchup problems and great rebounding they produce.
Incognito said:
Actually, I've always told friends of mine that I was surprised that more teams don't press and trap in the backcourt more, particularly now with the new 8-second rule. The press is not a "shitty college tactic"-- it's a legitimate defensive strategy that can create havoc and generate an easy 10-20 points of offense for you on any given night if done correctly (i.e., if you have the proper defensive personnel-- SA would be great at this with the quick Parker, Bowen, and Ginobli spearheading the attack). I just wanted to point out that I'm really surprised that more teams don't utilize the trap/press, given the fact that there's now an 8-second violation as well as the fact that you now have a LOT more young/inexperienced players in the league handling the ball and making weak passes.
The full court press DOES NOT work in the NBA for any significant period of time. This is coming from someone who had to watch Rick Pitino "coach" the Celtics by using it as a team mainstay.
There are two huge problems with employing a full court press in the NBA (versus college). Most importantly, it totally wears down the team emplying the press. In college, with shorter games, longer posessions, and no 82-game schedule, it's not an issue. In the NBA, with the guards needing to expel so much energy on the offense, it becomes a real drag.
The other big problem is that it puts a ton of pressure on the guys who stay back on defense. If you do a man on man press, you're gonna get a 3 on 3 or 2 on 2 situation on the other end of the court. Since so many NBA players can create their own shot in a one on one (with no help defenders) situation, this results in a score or open shot almost all the time.
The only recent example of a full court press working is the Wolves against the Lakers in 2003. Of course, that was only because the Lakers were ridiculously dependent on getting into their half court set and their PG couldn't handle the ball. Even then, the Lakers eventually figured it out and ended up blowing them out in the critical game 5. Keep in mind that this was in the playoffs, where teams get more rest and travel less, so it was an almost ideal situation for its utilization.
EDIT- Also, while there are fewer good ballhandlers in the NBA today, the good teams still have them in bunches and the only teams worth using a press against would be those same good teams. If i'm the Spurs, I don't particularly care of the Hawks or Warriors can't bring the ball up the court in 8 seconds.
There are two huge problems with employing a full court press in the NBA (versus college). Most importantly, it totally wears down the team emplying the press. In college, with shorter games, longer posessions, and no 82-game schedule, it's not an issue. In the NBA, with the guards needing to expel so much energy on the offense, it becomes a real drag.
The other big problem is that it puts a ton of pressure on the guys who stay back on defense. If you do a man on man press, you're gonna get a 3 on 3 or 2 on 2 situation on the other end of the court. Since so many NBA players can create their own shot in a one on one (with no help defenders) situation, this results in a score or open shot almost all the time.
The only recent example of a full court press working is the Wolves against the Lakers in 2003. Of course, that was only because the Lakers were ridiculously dependent on getting into their half court set and their PG couldn't handle the ball. Even then, the Lakers eventually figured it out and ended up blowing them out in the critical game 5. Keep in mind that this was in the playoffs, where teams get more rest and travel less, so it was an almost ideal situation for its utilization.
EDIT- Also, while there are fewer good ballhandlers in the NBA today, the good teams still have them in bunches and the only teams worth using a press against would be those same good teams. If i'm the Spurs, I don't particularly care of the Hawks or Warriors can't bring the ball up the court in 8 seconds.
The only team within the last decade that has utilized the half-court trap to their advantage were the Sonics' teams of the early-mid 90's. They would scare teams into submission, and force an insane amount of turnovers.
You can be sure that Seattle is going to be ready for any fullcourt/half-court traps and/or press the Spurs throw at them the next time they meet. Afterall, it's the defense that enabled the Spurs to creep back into the game.
You can be sure that Seattle is going to be ready for any fullcourt/half-court traps and/or press the Spurs throw at them the next time they meet. Afterall, it's the defense that enabled the Spurs to creep back into the game.
jobber
Would let Tony Parker sleep with his wife
Incognito said:
Spurs D= Best in the NBA
That's why Seattle and Phoenix have good records...they just outscore the other team.
They Spurs were NBA champs 2 years ago and just because they've lost close games doesn't mean crap. When the playoffs start, I'm sure the Suns will hit the wall(well except for Nash) and Seattle...well...I'm not sure if they're playoff tested. Twolves are struggling, The Lakers are so-so this year, Dallas is the only real threat SA faces. Don't get hyped over a meaningless regular season record BEFORE the all star break.
jobber said:
We're not talking about the best defensive team this year in the NBA; we're discussing whether traps and half-court presses work over a period of time.
Do the Spurs have a good defensive squad? Of course, but that hasn't stopped a few times from having their way with them.
I think that's why 50% of the league registers a "W" after a game.
Bat, good points.
I obviously wasn't talking about employing the press for the full 48, but rather in select situations (4th Q, during a big run etc.). You say that it wears guys down, but how would you know since it's never been tried? I honestly can't recall the last time I saw a team even attempt it. Who knows, though-- maybe they try it in practice and it wears them out there, so they decide to not go with it in the games. Still, seems like, if used properly and selectively, it could be an effective weapon. Chicago used to create like 10-20 points per game purely off their trap.
Lonestar: Seattle was a trapping team, but only in the halfcourt. They rarely extended pressure into the backcourt. I will admit, however, that the '95-'96 were likely the BEST halfcourt trapping team I have ever seen. They were so quick and active that it was disgusting, and it even gave Chicago fits at times in the Finals-- and Chicago had smart ball-players. The key to all these defensive strategies (fullcourt and halfcourt), I suppose, is having the personnel to do it effectively-- Chicago had Jordan, Pippen, Harper, and Rodman (or Grant/Levingston during the first run), and Seattle had Payton, McMillan, Hawkins, and Wingate (all of whom were above-average to excellent defenders).
I obviously wasn't talking about employing the press for the full 48, but rather in select situations (4th Q, during a big run etc.). You say that it wears guys down, but how would you know since it's never been tried?
I honestly can't recall the last time I saw a team even attempt it. Who knows, though-- maybe they try it in practice and it wears them out there, so they decide to not go with it in the games. Still, seems like, if used properly and selectively, it could be an effective weapon. Chicago used to create like 10-20 points per game purely off their trap.Lonestar: Seattle was a trapping team, but only in the halfcourt. They rarely extended pressure into the backcourt. I will admit, however, that the '95-'96 were likely the BEST halfcourt trapping team I have ever seen. They were so quick and active that it was disgusting, and it even gave Chicago fits at times in the Finals-- and Chicago had smart ball-players. The key to all these defensive strategies (fullcourt and halfcourt), I suppose, is having the personnel to do it effectively-- Chicago had Jordan, Pippen, Harper, and Rodman (or Grant/Levingston during the first run), and Seattle had Payton, McMillan, Hawkins, and Wingate (all of whom were above-average to excellent defenders).
I've seen the Sixers do it (and do it well) like 3 times this year in the 4th. Like you said, the main problem is personnel. For example, a team like the Lakers where their best on-the-ball defender is their #1 option. You can't really burn him out on defense unless it's totally necessary...
Ninja Scooter
Member
Cloudy said:Apparently, Carlos Arroyo is headed to LA. Please let it be the Lakers
Link? Arroyo's kinda been a bust after lighting it up in the Olympics. I'd rather have Earl Watson.
Incognito said:
Yeah, I know you specifically said "halfcourt trap", but I was just perplexed as to why you'd start talking about halfcourt traps when I was specifically referring to full-court traps and presses.
TSC TSC, Lonestar.
Or maybe I just tend to tune you out...
BatiGOOOOOOL
Member
Arroyo has been in Sloan's doghouse for quite some time this season, but wasn't him who suffered that ankle injury?
I still think he would be an excellent pick up for quite a few teams.
I still think he would be an excellent pick up for quite a few teams.
Ninja Scooter
Member
yeah, i guess if we can steal him away for some of our useless parts like Devean George (don't laugh, he might suck, but he's an ending K, so if Utah is interested in dumping salary this is one way to do it) it'd be a no-lose situation i guess.
BatiGOOOOOOL
Member
Incognito said:
Let's see, I've never lived or visited SA. I live in Costa Rica, I'm from Costa Rica.
I became a Spurs fan around 1990, when I was 8 years old, thanks to David Robinson, my favorite player of All-Time, not only because of what he did on the court, but also because of the kind of guy he was off of it. Since then I've learned to love this team more every year and now I bleed silver & black. I've followed them through all the bad(Strickland's pass in the WCF, the losing season,etc.) and all the good(Drob's MVP, Timmy being drafted, both titles, now, etc.).
What? Did you think I was a bandwagoner? NEVER!
BatiGOOOOOOL
Member
Haha, thanks. Maybe someday we can go watch a Spurs/Sonics game and choke each other while at it.
Kobex, I know Alex was injured, but didn't Arroyo suffered an injury in preseason or at the beginning of the season?
Kobex, I know Alex was injured, but didn't Arroyo suffered an injury in preseason or at the beginning of the season?
corrupt-koopa
Member
my bets for tonight
La Lakers all the way tonight baby!!
Phoneix suns -8 points "they have to win by 8 or more points"
washington wizards -2"they have to win with 2 points or more"
come on boys
La Lakers all the way tonight baby!!
Phoneix suns -8 points "they have to win by 8 or more points"
washington wizards -2"they have to win with 2 points or more"
come on boys
BatiGOOOOOOL
Member
corrupt-koopa said:
I think must of us know how betting works.
Thanks Konex, I actually thought Arroyo missed a big part of the games played so far because of a broken ankle or something.
corrupt-koopa
Member
BatiGOOOOOOL said:I think must of us know how betting works.
Thanks Konex, I actually thought Arroyo missed a big part of the games played so far because of a broken ankle or something.
ok good, so placed any bets for tonight?BatiGOOOOOOL
Member
corrupt-koopa said:
No.
Arroyo isn't being traded to L.A. Some idiot put that rumor on his website and then said he heard it from somewhere else. Arroyo did get into a fight with Sloan but before that he had an ankle and wrist injury. The same thing happened last season and it took him about 20 or more games to start playing well again.
corrupt-koopa
Member
BatiGOOOOOOL said:No.
oh ok...sport aint fun until you have money on it!
just kiddingI don't like Arroyo's game. I don't think he'll be a good fit for the lakers either. And he can't dribble without palming the ball, I can't believe he never gets called for it.
Personally I think that playing styles don't matter that much when it comes to the playoffs. At the end of the day the better team wins most of the time. The Dallas running teams didn't win it all, but lets face it, they were not the better team, they were not better than the Spurs or Lakers. The best team win IMO, no matter there style. Right now I believe the Spurs are the best team.
Whats the deal with NBA TV? Is it part of the inside pass thing?
Personally I think that playing styles don't matter that much when it comes to the playoffs. At the end of the day the better team wins most of the time. The Dallas running teams didn't win it all, but lets face it, they were not the better team, they were not better than the Spurs or Lakers. The best team win IMO, no matter there style. Right now I believe the Spurs are the best team.
Whats the deal with NBA TV? Is it part of the inside pass thing?
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