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[Outcast2004]

Has nothing to do with liking TNA, and everything to do with faces typically being boring and heels typically being interesting. When my friends and I go to live events, that's mostly what we do (save for the few guys we love no matter which way they are), so I guess you'd hate us too.

I'd rather people be doing that, then cheering people who completely suck in the ring just because the WWE convinces them that those wrestlers should be cheered for. (See the last time we went to an event, and one Bobby Lashley.)

Exactly. The heels are usually the better in-ring workers too. At this point, I'd put Edge over Rey and even Orton over Jeff as far as ring working.

As far as Flair I REALLY wish he'd just hang it up already. I just can't

 

[borghe]

Has nothing to do with liking TNA, and everything to do with faces typically being boring and heels typically being interesting. When my friends and I go to live events, that's mostly what we do (save for the few guys we love no matter which way they are), so I guess you'd hate us too.

I'd rather people be doing that, then cheering people who completely suck in the ring just because the WWE convinces them that those wrestlers should be cheered for. (See the last time we went to an event, and one Bobby Lashley.)

Is this really what you guys believe? That people like Cena or Jeff Hardy or similar because the WWE has somehow programmed them to do so? People cheer for who appeals to them, and boo whoever annoys them. For some this means heels are more fun, for most others it means faces.

Exactly. The heels are usually the better in-ring workers too. At this point, I'd put Edge over Rey and even Orton over Jeff as far as ring working.

As far as Flair I REALLY wish he'd just hang it up already. I just can't

ummmm.. wow.. just wow.... also as far as heel or face being better workers, that's also pretty stupid. Either the wrestler is a good worker or he's not.. it has nothing to do with the direction creative puts on them. Trips, HBK, Undertaker, both Hardys, hell even Flair all great workers. Yeah there are some great heel workers also, but what faction they are in has nothing to do with the quality of their work.

 

[Outcast2004]

ummmm.. wow.. just wow.... also as far as heel or face being better workers, that's also pretty stupid. Either the wrestler is a good worker or he's not.. it has nothing to do with the direction creative puts on them. Trips, HBK, Undertaker, both Hardys, hell even Flair all great workers. Yeah there are some great heel workers also, but what faction they are in has nothing to do with the quality of their work.

it's a stretch, I know. But it just seems that Randy is starting to understand how to pace a match.

As for the heels being better workers... that's usually the case. Look at the title runs.
HHH was a heel for most of it and got to carry a LOT of guys along the way
Flair, CAREER heel... just now on the nostalgia babyface trip.
Taker, did his most memorable work as a heel.
HArdys great in ring? Not really. Very over? Definetly.
HBK, he's an exception the rule, he's world class. But his best stuff was as a heel brining up some new guy named Austin and against a little known Canadian named Bret.

Take an objective look at the heels throughout the past 20 years. They're usually the more rounded workers.

 

[GoutPatrol]

Take an objective look at the heels throughout the past 20 years. They're usually the more rounded workers.

Every single guy you mentioned worked both face and hell throughout their careers. Being a bad or good guy has no standing for their overall quality of work.

 

[jobber]

Your point?

If you had the opportunity, you'd let Cena teabag you, wouldn't you? I'm talking full-on bals on chin action.
Of course you would... you're so over the top gay for him it's disgusting.

Nah. Not like that. He's the best entertainer in WWE since Rock left.

You can't hate him or whatever, but he brings energy to the show.

 

[alr1ght]

PRO:
Maria in Playboy
Santino!!!
Ending to Jericho/JBL
Mike Adamle (although he was terrible) :lol
Rumble match itself

CON:
Hardy Losing
Cena, ugh ugh ugh
Cena vs. Orton at WM, ugh ugh ugh


Hopefully since Hornswaggle was never eliminated they'll void the whole match.

 

[Outcast2004]

Every single guy you mentioned worked both face and hell throughout their careers. Being a bad or good guy has no standing for their overall quality of work.

You're missing my point completely. USUALLY the heel is the stronger in-ring worker, more of the "ring leader". Look at the Hogan era for example....

Hogan was your huge, talentless but yet charasmatic lug. He was put up against some really solid workers....

Paul Orndorff
Roddy Piper
Ted DiBiasie
Bundy in his own right
Iron Sheik
Slaughter
Savage

Basically the list goes on and on and on.

Even look at Cena and his best matches and look who played the heel and esentially made Cena look great.
Angle
Umaga (real solid for a "savage monster"
JBL (wow... never thought I would say that.)
HHH
Edge
HBK
Jericho & Christian

I'm NOT knocking the usual faces... I'm just making a point about who USUALLY is the better ring worker... which is what I like. Solid in ring work.

 

[Aladuf]

hmm... I just found out that the TNA ppv Destination X is in Norfolk, VA in March, and despite the fact I don't watch TNA methinks I'm going to go see this with birdman. Hopefully it'll be a good time!

 

[borghe]

well, my problem with your statement is that I truly hate Orton as a worker. His matches are all the same thing, and that same thing is WAY worse than Cena. Cena at least typically runs a nice 30 minute slugfest during PPVs, sells bumps perfectly, and where I disagree with your statement about orton, actually knows how to pace a match and make a comeback for the win. This is my biggest problem with orton, even beyond any sort of charisma he doesn't have in promos. Orton is horrible horrible horrible at pacing matches, and this championship match was THE EPITOME of it. Orton has only kept the belt using one of two ways: disqualification or RKO from nowhere after getting pounded on for 15 minutes straight. There is no pace to an Orton match. He sells ok enough for like 5-10 minutes, and then right before his opponent is about to put a finisher on him he flips around and does the RKO. HELL, it's why I HATE watching Orton championship matches. Because no matter what the match looks like, no matter how badly things look, you know that RKO could pop out at a moments notice and the match would go from orton being beat to him winning in like 1 second.

At least when Cena was champ, Cena knew how to sell a comeback. Knew how to sell the bumps, knew how to tell a story in the ring. Sure he doesn't have the biggest move set (whether because of lack of talent or limitations by creative it doesn't matter) and wins a lot more than most of us want to see... but in the ring actually playing out a match, I would have to say he's one of the best in the business right now. Sure I'd love to see some more moves, and sure I'd love to see him lose once in a while, but in the same boat I can honestly say I've enjoyed most of his matches, even the ones I groaned at, a hell of a lot more than most of the RAW title matches I've watched in the past 5 months.

As for heels putting over faces, I still say it's a lot more even (and really regardless) than you are stating. Yes we've had some popular faces that weren't tremendous workers, but it's much harder to be a heel and be a lousy worker than it is a face. Face's are primarily about charisma, getting the crowd fired up. Heels are about working. A heel with charisma but a poor worker is going to get SLAUGHTERED by the crowd (see Orton). Just like a face with no charisma and a good worker (Cody Rhodes for example) will likewise get ignored by the crowd. You have to look at what is the most important aspect of each side.

Heck, you could almost make a case for the charismatic talentless wrestler (which I don't agree cena is) bringing as much to a match overall as the working heel. it's two sides to the same equation.

 

[alr1ght]

 

[Penguin]

I think heels make the better in-ring worker because they are tasked with the majority of the offense. It is why Triple H as a face doesn't work because he does not like to seem weak. The face should not dominant the match as it doesn't draw you in. No one wants to see the heel make a triumpant last minute comeback.

On the same hand, faces are usually pigeon-holed into the comeback sequence so the fans know when to start cheering and rallying behind their champion. People criticize Cena for his 5 moves, but all the great faces have had something similar.

Bret had the side russian legsweep, the second rope elbow drop, the backbreaker and the sharpshooter.
Rock had the knip up and the spinebuster.
HBK has the atomic drop, the body slam, the flying elbow and the er rope elbow.

It is a formula that works but sometimes limits a person's appeal.

As for Borge's point on Orton, the fact that the RKO could come from anywhere has always sold the finisher for me. I mean it shouldn't need a long set-up its a move he can hit from anywhere at anytime. As JR says, it is as deadly as it is swift.

 

[plagiarize]

I think heels make the better in-ring worker because they are tasked with the majority of the offense. It is why Triple H as a face doesn't work because he does not like to seem weak. The face should not dominant the match as it doesn't draw you in. No one wants to see the heel make a triumpant last minute comeback.

On the same hand, faces are usually pigeon-holed into the comeback sequence so the fans know when to start cheering and rallying behind their champion. People criticize Cena for his 5 moves, but all the great faces have had something similar.

Bret had the side russian legsweep, the second rope elbow drop, the backbreaker and the sharpshooter.
Rock had the knip up and the spinebuster.
HBK has the atomic drop, the body slam, the flying elbow and the er rope elbow.

It is a formula that works but sometimes limits a person's appeal.

As for Borge's point on Orton, the fact that the RKO could come from anywhere has always sold the finisher for me. I mean it shouldn't need a long set-up its a move he can hit from anywhere at anytime. As JR says, it is as deadly as it is swift.

^ this.

i knew when Hardy hit the mat after the RKO that it was all over. crushing, but a brilliant moment.

the RKO is the most protected finisher in the WWE right now. you can reverse out of it, but if he hits it, you're done. we need more moves that you don't kick out of IMHO.

 

[alr1ght]

here is Santino's segment:

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=14ybixl&s=3

:lol :lol

 

[borghe]

I can agree with all of that, but it just makes it seem stupid when cena (for example) can drop like 2 FUs on someone (which pysically looks more powerful than the RKO) and they still kick out yet Orton hits you with one RKO and it's all over? If you are going to make ending moves that are simply not able to be come back from, you should make more. But then that goes back to why they got rid of them in the first place. Because we all know it's "fake" in that they aren't really hitting the moves as they look. So why have any finisher that can take someone from 50% to 0% in one move. Otherwise it becomes difficult to mark when you just say "why doesn't he start with an RKO?"

Eh... just not happy with it as an end all be all move. Also not happy with how he can barely move after being beaten to a pulp, yet in a milisecond later he has enough energy to jump high enough to be almost parallel to the ground and pull of an rko. :\

here is Santino's segment:

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=14ybixl&s=3

:lol :lol

that was amazing. It absolutely floors me how good this guy is. Brilliant, AND he's nailing Maria.

 

[plagiarize]

I can agree with all of that, but it just makes it seem stupid when cena (for example) can drop like 2 FUs on someone (which pysically looks more powerful than the RKO) and they still kick out yet Orton hits you with one RKO and it's all over? If you are going to make ending moves that are simply not able to be come back from, you should make more. But then that goes back to why they got rid of them in the first place. Because we all know it's "fake" in that they aren't really hitting the moves as they look. So why have any finisher that can take someone from 50% to 0% in one move. Otherwise it becomes difficult to mark when you just say "why doesn't he start with an RKO?"

Eh... just not happy with it as an end all be all move. Also not happy with how he can barely move after being beaten to a pulp, yet in a milisecond later he has enough energy to jump high enough to be almost parallel to the ground and pull of an rko. :\

well sometimes he does start with an RKO. sometimes he tries it early. Hardy had been countering it in the last few weeks, so he picked his spot... waited till Hardy tried the twist of fate knowing he could quickly counter it into an RKO.

finishers have always been that way though. the F-U to me looks less devestating than a superplex but people kick out of those all the time... and don't talk to me about Hogan's leg drop.

the RKO gives Randy the feeling of someone who is never truly beaten until the bell rings. i really like that. he's dangerous, and potentially seconds away from victory. it lets him take a beating from a face without hurting his credibility, meaning we aren't watching the traditional face take a pounding then come back story, or watching someone who is a duplicate of Edge in terms of winning by any means necessary.

it hurts to see Hardy lose, and lose clean... but then i remember this was his first PPV main event title match.

and damn if it doesn't make Orton look a lot more credible than Edge.

 

[JavyOO7]

That Jeff Hardy match last night just reminded of the Lex Express way back when.

Oh my god. I am going to cry now. ;(

EDIT:

I can agree with all of that, but it just makes it seem stupid when cena (for example) can drop like 2 FUs on someone (which pysically looks more powerful than the RKO) and they still kick out yet Orton hits you with one RKO and it's all over?

Because the RKO finisher has been built up to be that one hit kill for quite sometime now.

Most finishers are like this. Obviously they aren't going to hit the finisher the moment the match starts (because their opponent is still fresh). But logically the wrestler hits the finisher when their opponent has been beaten up for quite sometime... as pretty match as its always been.

 

[jobber]

http://i30.tinypic.com/s67yiq.jpg