Japan Daily Sales- 26th Dec
- Thread starter Broshnat
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soundwave05
Member
I'd like to see Nintendo make some kind of game downloading service for the GBA at least in Japan, with cheaper software prices.
Moderate success, wasn't doing quite as well as Sega Saturn though (which had the highly anticipated Virtua Fighter at launch). People expected PlayStation to be a strong secondary platform, probably more like PC Engine than anything.ThirdEye said:Do you have any info on how the original PlayStation launched and was accepted in Japan in 1994?
I'm a bit surprised their NP system hasn't been extended to GBA yet actually.soundwave05 said:
soundwave05
Member
Yeah I believe the Saturn routinely outsold the PSOne in Japan until about late 1996 when the hype train for FF7 rolled into high gear.
If Nintendo had just hedged and agreed to include a CD-ROM in the N64 (even just for Square and Enix's sake), I don't know if the PSOne ever really would've become a huge platform in Japan anyway. Probably would've been a PC Engine type deal. Its too bad Enix didn't just insist that Nintendo include a CD-ROM because I think Nintendo thought "hey, we got the 64DD for Dragon Quest VII, so we should be OK", and that line of thinking really screwed them over.
Of course these things really have no bearing on how the PSP will do.
If Nintendo had just hedged and agreed to include a CD-ROM in the N64 (even just for Square and Enix's sake), I don't know if the PSOne ever really would've become a huge platform in Japan anyway. Probably would've been a PC Engine type deal. Its too bad Enix didn't just insist that Nintendo include a CD-ROM because I think Nintendo thought "hey, we got the 64DD for Dragon Quest VII, so we should be OK", and that line of thinking really screwed them over.
Of course these things really have no bearing on how the PSP will do.
They are early numbers based on a limited number of retailers. They give a good indication of the sales, but will be a bit out when the final numbers come in. Daily charts are not usually the best indication, but when SM64 has topped the list for the last couple of days, and will continue to be top 3 over the coming week, then it's likely that numbers of around 150k for this week too will be quite possible.
GT4 should do around 550k in it's opening weekend, I think it'll be a fair bit down on GT3, although it will pass a million.
GT4 should do around 550k in it's opening weekend, I think it'll be a fair bit down on GT3, although it will pass a million.
Buggy Loop
Member
Its not comparable at all, n64's biggest cart was 512 megabit which is 64MB, and only 2 or 3 games used that iirc, DS's starting cart is 1Gb, 128MB, right off the bat its twice n64's biggest. I have a feeling it could reach 512MB or maybe even higher given a few years or maybe even at the developer's request. They're cheap too apparently, even less than GBA's cartridges which hold much less space. Also, compression technology of n64's era compared to nowadays is night & day, just 4 days ago nintendo became a licensee of actimagine, which can store 90mins of video at fast framerate and high quality stereo sound in just 32MB. Doesnt stop devs from creating their own compression tools though, which most of them already R&D'd in it, take capcom's RE2 for example, that thing fitted in an n64 cartridge, back then it was unthinkable.
So thats not really an argument, sure the umd has more space but its not to the point of the last generation. Plus, more powerful hardware requires higher res textures, more polygon data feed, etc etc, that takes more place from the beginning.
Dev'ing on DS is cheaper all around, not because of tools but because its older tech, surprisingly that might be DS's advantage in the long run. devs never looked at the handheld market as more profitable than the console market for high budget games, software ratios are much lower and what typically sells in that market are quick & fun games that the mainstream can log maybe 5 mins and have instant fun. So usually, the cheaper the better.
Square enix's support so far has been toward the DS aswell, who would've thought?
So thats not really an argument, sure the umd has more space but its not to the point of the last generation. Plus, more powerful hardware requires higher res textures, more polygon data feed, etc etc, that takes more place from the beginning.
Dev'ing on DS is cheaper all around, not because of tools but because its older tech, surprisingly that might be DS's advantage in the long run. devs never looked at the handheld market as more profitable than the console market for high budget games, software ratios are much lower and what typically sells in that market are quick & fun games that the mainstream can log maybe 5 mins and have instant fun. So usually, the cheaper the better.
Square enix's support so far has been toward the DS aswell, who would've thought?
ThirdEye said:
Yes.
The technology behind the SD card sized 'game cards' for the DS is based on Matrix Technologies' 3-D stackable ROM wafer technology. Matrix is probably manufacturing this, but Nintendo may also be manufacturing this themselves through their Taiwanese contractors. I'm not sure it this is the case.
Because of this stackability, the ROM chips store much more information than the old process could hold and the chips themselves are tiny.
The major cost, as I understand it, of ROM chips comes from the cost of the wafers and the number of chips you can press with each wafer. Smaller chips means more chip per wafer thus reducing the cost.
Nintendo is actually so confident with their costs they've included a small flash chip for game saves as a standard feature with every DS card they manufacture. Developers could specificy higher capacity chips if they require it.
They've also fixed the long lead times it used to take to press the ROMs. Now, Nintendo can manufacture the chips in advance and simply program games into the chips as needed. As I understand it from Matrix's documentation, their technology has a write once capability, much like a CD-R.
The low cost 'rumor' was published by IGN I believe noting they've gotten down the cost of these cards to what a DVD would cost.
wobedraggled
Banned
jarrod said:
Don't you EVER compare the psx to the godlike PCE
I wouldn't be surprised if we were seeing 1 GB cards next year.
SE could probably fit the PS FF games on the DS; they could seriously lower the resolution of all the graphics, saving space. Compression technology is very, very good, at the moment (90 minutes of video + audio in 32 MB? You damn right the FMVs could make it onto the DS). Hell, if SE really, really wanted to, they could change the bgs from pre-renders into real-time graphics, and save a shitload of space while they're at it. The DS hardware could probably handle real-time bgs pretty similar, if not better, than the pre-renders on the PS.
SE could probably fit the PS FF games on the DS; they could seriously lower the resolution of all the graphics, saving space. Compression technology is very, very good, at the moment (90 minutes of video + audio in 32 MB? You damn right the FMVs could make it onto the DS). Hell, if SE really, really wanted to, they could change the bgs from pre-renders into real-time graphics, and save a shitload of space while they're at it. The DS hardware could probably handle real-time bgs pretty similar, if not better, than the pre-renders on the PS.
GaimeGuy said:
they probably could do - I haven't seen it for myself but Kinghearts GBA apparently has a FMV intro which makes that pretty stellar - SE is huge on polish+presentation so we can only hope that they do good stuff for the portables (ahem). If nothing GBA has proven that ports will sell - its time for the companies/dev cos to bring on the ports. I would kill for FFVI + VII on DS or PSP.
There seems to be some misinformation about the DS card sizes... all launch games were on 16MB or 32MB cards. Matrix currently also has 64MB and probably 128MB and 256MB cards in mass production. Sizes will continue to go up most likely, and we don't know what the read ceiling is for DS yet (though that can be easily gotten around when it happens).
soundwave05
Member
I bet they could fit Final Fantasy VII onto a 128 MB DS card if they wanted to go that route.
I mean the resolution for the DS screen is lower than a television, so that saves a ton of space, and today's video and image compression routines are a lot better than what was availible in 1996 (to put it mildly). They could probably compress the hell out of those pre-rendered backgrounds today.
I mean the resolution for the DS screen is lower than a television, so that saves a ton of space, and today's video and image compression routines are a lot better than what was availible in 1996 (to put it mildly). They could probably compress the hell out of those pre-rendered backgrounds today.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
FF VII port in 128 MB is a bit of a stretch still, unless you were to COMPLETLY remove the video. But here are some facts for people's guesstimation play.
Each FF VII CD contained about 400 MB of video, with each disc having about 20 minutes worth.
Each FF VII CD had the same background image files and companion data (I imagine that's the rudimentary 3D data and objects to go with the images). The images themselves come to about 110 megabytes, the companion data 28 MB. Regardless of whether or not they lowered the resolution of the background images (DS isn't that big of a step down from PS1 in that regard, so a smaller viewing window tht he same backgrounds would probably work), something like JPEG compression would totally tinify this number.
The rest of the data (models, spells, sound, etc.) comes to about 105 MB. I'm sure it could be compressed in some better ways too, though. As I am a silly nerd I have done such experiments long ago. The most compressed directory was Magic, which went from 47 MB to an 8.8 MB solid RAR file. Of course I realize a DS isn't exactly going to be dealing with big solid RAR files so that's an unrealistically low amount.
Each FF VII CD contained about 400 MB of video, with each disc having about 20 minutes worth.
Each FF VII CD had the same background image files and companion data (I imagine that's the rudimentary 3D data and objects to go with the images). The images themselves come to about 110 megabytes, the companion data 28 MB. Regardless of whether or not they lowered the resolution of the background images (DS isn't that big of a step down from PS1 in that regard, so a smaller viewing window tht he same backgrounds would probably work), something like JPEG compression would totally tinify this number.
The rest of the data (models, spells, sound, etc.) comes to about 105 MB. I'm sure it could be compressed in some better ways too, though. As I am a silly nerd I have done such experiments long ago. The most compressed directory was Magic, which went from 47 MB to an 8.8 MB solid RAR file. Of course I realize a DS isn't exactly going to be dealing with big solid RAR files so that's an unrealistically low amount.
Does that even make sense, though? It's been a long time since I heard of a ROM's storage in megabytes being a prime number.GaimeGuy said:
Joshua; ok, 60 minutes of video? (Even though that still sounds a little high for FFVII).
Nintendo just became a licensee of a company whose encoder can compress 90 minutes of video down to 32 MB.
I think FFVII could definitely b e compressed down to 128 MB.
Nintendo just became a licensee of a company whose encoder can compress 90 minutes of video down to 32 MB.
I think FFVII could definitely b e compressed down to 128 MB.
soundwave05
Member
Well they did get Resident Evil 2 down to 64MB on the N64, the DS is a lower resolution machine than that.
So its possible.
By the time Square ends up re-releasing FFIII-VI, 256MB-512MB DS cards will probably be availible anyway.
I think the music would be the toughest thing to compress. The pre-rendered graphics and poly data probably could be reduced quite easily today, but FF7 has *a lot* of music that even with compression might be tough to get down in size.
Didn't Factor 5 develop some kind of crazy audio compression for the N64/GCN though? Something like that might do the trick.
Metal Gear Solid on the DS would be interesting too.
So its possible.
By the time Square ends up re-releasing FFIII-VI, 256MB-512MB DS cards will probably be availible anyway.
I think the music would be the toughest thing to compress. The pre-rendered graphics and poly data probably could be reduced quite easily today, but FF7 has *a lot* of music that even with compression might be tough to get down in size.
Didn't Factor 5 develop some kind of crazy audio compression for the N64/GCN though? Something like that might do the trick.
Metal Gear Solid on the DS would be interesting too.
JoshuaJSlone said:
None of the video was compressed, though, in FF7. With all the amazing compression techniques available now, it's entirely possible.
Remember, 5 years ago, the genius crew from Rockstar that compressed the entire 2 discs of RE2 on the even more limiting cart size of the N64, even managed to pump out a high-res mode.
Porting FF7 to the DS is not out of the realm of possibility.
soundwave05
Member
128MB would be a challenge, but probably doable.
256MB would be doable for sure though I would think. That's four times the size of RE2 on the N64 and the DS screen is a lower resolution. RE2 on the N64 had a full blown high-resolution mode which looked even better than the PSOne original.
256MB would be doable for sure though I would think. That's four times the size of RE2 on the N64 and the DS screen is a lower resolution. RE2 on the N64 had a full blown high-resolution mode which looked even better than the PSOne original.
The DS PSP race / war I say will really start around JUNE. That's when both handhelds are out (in both Japan and US) and both would have had some time to adjust to the marketplace (vice versa). I fully expect PSP to take the shine of Xenon launch. :| I actually think the market will sustain both handhelds (+ GBA). GBA2 should most likely kill PSP though.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
Anything 90 minutes at 32 megabytes is going to look pretty shit. However, if they used that codec at that extreme, and cut down several other things, sure, it could work at 128. But I don't think they would when they could just wait for something a little bigger (or GBMA/PSP). FF VII DS at 192 megabytes? I'd believe that in a second. 160, maybe.GaimeGuy said:
Very wrong, fortunately. Not all audio is created equal. FF VII's was real-time music just like that done SNES. As a matter of fact, I have the entire FF VII soundtrack in PSF form on my hard drive, and it takes less than 1 megabyte.soundwave05 said:
Possible, yes. I'm just being realistic. If I take all the RAR compressing of the FF VII directories that I did years ago and take that into account, and estimate what JPEG compression could do for the image files, I come to 120 megabytes. Take into account that I don't think the real-world real-time compression necessary for a DS game would be quite as good, and I just don't see the spare room for video that would fit in 128 MB.Culex said:
For reference, here's the compression info I have saved from those years ago:
Code:
Dir Originally RAR Compressed
Battle 429,692 404,393
Enemy1 1,169,953 1,061,884
Enemy2 1,576,304 1,421,636
Enemy3 1,415,774 1,298,251
Enemy4 1,707,190 1,525,520
Enemy5 1,528,844 1,282,967
Enemy6 3,976,451 2,525,872
Field 145,090,878 126,494,664
Init 35,722 35,751
Magic 47,271,467 8,841,266
Menu 521,000 91,560
Mini 4,403,596 3,225,312
Snova 1,149,307 799,276
Sound 801,936 629,147
Stage1 8,224,235 7,669,122
Stage2 6,066,227 5,634,821
Startup 74,275 10,724
World 30,235,217 8,371,707
Total: 255,678,068 171,323,873JoshuaJSlone
Member
From 320x224 to 256x192 isn't a huge drop. Percentage-wise it's the same as an SNES game going to GBA. So I doubt the prerendered backgrounds would be shrunk in size. I think it would make less than a 10 MB difference if they did, though.nubbe said:
Even if the DS would be doing decompressions equivalent to these all the time (I'm not sure how doable it is), 7-Zip isn't that much greater.Culex said:
Even taking into consideration what the two of you say above, that might revise my estimate for a non-video'd FF VI from 120 MB to 110 MB. That would still leave getting an hour of 256x192 CG FMV in 18 MB, though.
soundwave05
Member
There's something really wrong if they couldn't compress the game onto a 256MB card.
That's friggin' 4 times the size of Resident Evil 2 on the N64, which was compressed down from a 2-CD game (even if it didn't use the entire space, FF7 doesn't use 3 full CDs either) into a 64MB cartridge.
And it had a high resolution mode on top of that.
The pre-rendered backgrounds could be made much, much more compact, not only because the DS is a lower resolution, but because compression techniques today could bring the size of those environments down big time.
128MB is maybe debatable, but 256MB? More than doable.
That's friggin' 4 times the size of Resident Evil 2 on the N64, which was compressed down from a 2-CD game (even if it didn't use the entire space, FF7 doesn't use 3 full CDs either) into a 64MB cartridge.
And it had a high resolution mode on top of that.
The pre-rendered backgrounds could be made much, much more compact, not only because the DS is a lower resolution, but because compression techniques today could bring the size of those environments down big time.
128MB is maybe debatable, but 256MB? More than doable.
Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
Culex said:
Did a quick test, no it doesn't
jorge13130
Banned
There are less PSP than DS, because of the shipments, which are only at 400000, but the real sales are very far from 400,000, the DS is closer in sales to its shipment.
Hopefully by 2006 the PSP will be dead, as well as xbox (xbox 2)
Hopefully by 2006 the PSP will be dead, as well as xbox (xbox 2)
ImNotLikeThem
Member
also, people may not be thinking of this too much, but if there were a way to hot-swap the ds games out while you were playing, there is no reason why there couldn't be multi-card games for the DS, if they are as cheap to produce as rumoured. All it would have to do is essentially the same thing as the PS FFVII cd's, keep the basic game data the same on both/all cards, and have the "extra" required stuff card-dependent. each would have to have it's own save ram, and that may get confusing, but i don't see why this would be impossible.
Culex said:
Didn't the PS1's processor have an MDEC decoder built into it? MDEC IIRC was some kind of MPEG compression. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know why Square would put uncompressed video on the CD when the PS1 could decode in hardware. Also, if it's not compressed, then it had gobs of artifacting for nothing. The FMV in FF7 was of much crappier quality compared to that of their other PS1 games like FF8 and Vagrant Story. PEACE.