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Jury to decide if pastor can protest at Dearborn mosque

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beast786

Member
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/...cide-if-pastor-can-protest-at-Dearborn-mosque

Dearborn— A jury on Friday will weigh whether a Quran-burning pastor can legally carry out plans that day to protest at the Islamic Center of America mosque.

Florida Pastor Terry Jones expressed frustration over the prospect this afternoon, telling 19th District Judge Mark Somers that "it will be a problem" if the trial stretches on so long that he can't carry out the 5 p.m. demonstration against radical Islam. The trial before Somers is to begin about 8 a.m.

He impaneled the jury of four woman and three men from a pool of 30 this afternoon after ruling that Jones' protest could endanger the public and would have to pay an unspecified peace bond to demonstrate on a small median outside the Ford Road mosque. The jury includes six members and one alternate.

Jones refused to pay the bond and opted for the trial, which initially was believed to occur this afternoon.

The ruling puts into question Jones' demonstration, which has sparked arguments about the line between free speech and public safety. Prosecutors have sought the unspecified bond — Jones said it was up to $100,000 — for extra police in fear of a riot.

The hearing comes a day after Dearborn city officials denied Jones a permit to protest on public land near the mosque citing public safety concerns. They say he could face arrest if he carries through the protest. Before the hearing, Jones — who wore a leather jacket and jeans — said he planned to proceed with the demonstration despite the permitting issues or peace bond.

"This will not stop us," Jones said before the hearing that began at 3 p.m.


The courtroom was packed mostly with journalists and a few spectators including Richard Fournier. The Redford Township resident said he supports the minister's right to free speech but thinks he is misguided.

"He's just grandstanding to get attention," said Fournier.

Outside the court, a handful of protestors gathered against Jones. One held a sign reading, "Racist Terry Jones Get out of Town."

The issue is also being watched very closely by the ACLU of Michigan, which planned to have a representative in the courtroom today. The organization wants to make sure Jones' First Amendment rights are not being violated, said ACLU of Michigan spokeswoman Rana Elmir.

Also today, Arab Community Center for Economic & Social Services Director Hassan Jaber issued a statement backing Jones' right to protest — and residents' right to criticize him.

"At ACCESS, we work to empower people to become fully engaged members of their community," Jaber said.

"We cannot teach the U.S. Constitution in our citizenship classes while opposing First Amendment rights. So we support Mr. Jones' right to speak, but we do so with our own postscript: That his message of bigotry and hate does not resonate here."

The city of Dearborn has told him he can protest at other, "free speech" zones in the city. They and prosecutors argued that the proximity of nearby churches and a school could compromise safety if Jones demonstrated at the mosque.

He gained notoriety when 20 people died in Afghanistan last month, after Jones' church "put the Quran on trial" and burned the Islamic holy book March 21.

Jones said he will not burn the Quran during his planned demonstration Friday. He said he and a handful of supporters will hold up signs and there will be some speeches during his estimated two-hour protest.

Jones said he is not protesting against mosque itself but the "radical" elements in Islam. Jones said he chose the Islamic Center because it is billed as the largest mosque in North America and chose Dearborn because of its large concentration of Muslims.

Although he will be armed with a pistol, Jones said he is "coming there totally in peace."


A few miles away from the courthouse, religious leaders from various denominations joined together in prayer at the Islamic Center of America.

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110421...-can-protest-at-Dearborn-mosque#ixzz1KDKYc0pQ
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Let him protest, and Muslims need to cool their shit and ignore him, make him look like the fool that he is and walk away.
 

jaxword

Member
The guy is a hateful moron, but he has a right to spew his hateful speech.

He also has the right to suffer the consequences.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
BoobPhysics101 said:
Go back to your own church, hateful little pastor. No Muslims come to your house of prayer to protect, so why do it to them?
No offense, but it's his absolute right to do so. If he wants to be an annoyance, so be it.

Muslims can't really complain, though. Churches in Egypt and Iraq get bombed, and their attendants murdered. Thankfully, all this guy wants to do is protest.
 

beast786

Member
SoulPlaya said:
No offense, but it's his absolute right to do so. If he wants to be an annoyance, so be it.

Muslims can't really complain, though. Churches in Egypt and Iraq get bombed, and their attendants murdered. Thankfully, all this guy wants to do is protest.

So now Egypt is our gold standard. I heard christian or any women cant drive in Saudi Arabia, maybe we should take Driver license from all the muslim woman in U.S
 
Mayor chimes in:

http://dearborn.patch.com/articles/an-open-letter-to-pastor-jones

Dear Pastor Jones:

I watched you on television speaking about the Constitution and Dearborn, and it appears you need more information about both before you come to our city. I can provide insight on the Constitution, and expertise on Dearborn.

First of all, Dearborn supports the Constitution as well as any city in America. Our commitment to the Constitution is unwavering, not merely convenient, which makes your hyperbole about Sharia Law being practiced in the courts or civil law of Dearborn nonsensical. So, you are coming to protest against an imaginary threat that doesn’t exist in our community. Not in our courts, not at our City Hall, not on our streets and not in any of our places of worship.

Still, because we do understand the Constitution here, we are not preventing you from expressing your free speech. In fact, in Dearborn, we’ve even gone one step farther than most communities in support of free speech. We established, by ordinance, “Permit Free Zones” intended for demonstrations and free speech.

One of those zones is at City Hall, where from my office I have heard many rallies being conducted in response to international, national or regional issues. This is a high-visibility spot, seen by thousands of motorists but safe from traffic, with plenty of public space for protestors, supporters and the media. It is where we are asking you to conduct your demonstration. The steps of City Hall can even make an impressive platform for speeches.

And, if you are unhappy with what you think is going on in Dearborn, then what better place to protest than with City Hall as the back drop?

Instead you insist on protesting in an area that has no public property to accommodate crowds, spectators, parking or the media. There is just a small public road with limited access which can’t be blocked and an adjacent grassy area for drainage. It is parallel to a major state road, but the small shoulder can accommodate people only when they have auto emergencies.

And, this property you are focusing on, in front of the Islamic Center of America, is also adjacent to four Christian churches, all of which will be hosting Good Friday services, adding to the traffic flow and congestion. It is ironic that the road that you want to protest near is called Altar Road, so named because it was first constructed to provide access to a row of churches constructed in the 1950s reflecting Dearborn’s diverse faith communities.

But I can understand if you don’t know the details of the site, or the particulars about Dearborn. But you should know about the Constitution that you claim to be defending.

The Constitution says that your rights must be balanced with the rights of others under the same document. Your free speech rights do not allow you to trespass on the private property of others or prevent them from the Constitutional right to freely practice their religion. I am not just talking about Muslims, but members of all faiths.

The members of the Christian churches on Altar Road asked me last week if they should cancel their Good Friday services because of your planned visit. I assured them that they should not because the Constitution does not allow you to violate their rights. I don’t know why you selected Good Friday, but it wasn’t very considerate of the significant Christian services being held at that time. I assure you that you will not make them forfeit their services.

You claim that you are coming to protest the radicalism of Islam. Like all of America, we are concerned about the radicalization of any religion that would rationalize extreme actions. However we have not let this concern turn into a twisted paranoia that promotes fear-mongering and misleading generalizations. You state that you are coming to the Islamic Center of America because it is the largest mosque in America. What does that have to do with the radicalism of Islam? While size may matter to you, we prefer to focus on actual behavior. And according to our Police Department and the anti-terrorism agencies they work with, there has never been evidence of any wrongdoing in any of Dearborn’s mosques.

It appears your choice of the Islamic Center of America is not because it has any relationship to the stated object of your free speech, but because it symbolizes the Islamic faith in general. If so, that is not truly in line with the Constitution you say you are defending.

There is no Sharia Law in Dearborn, only Constitutional Law. Sharia Law is church- or faith-based law that is applicable only to the followers of that faith. For me it is Cannon Law of Catholicism, in Judaism it is Torah Law, and for Muslims it is Sharia Law. The actual originator of the event you plan to hold in Dearborn, Frank Fiorello of the Fraternal Order of the Dragon, accepted my invitation to learn more about Dearborn, and after seeing the truth, he canceled his protest.

But, if you don’t believe that Dearborn follows the Constitution, here are some realistic facts for you. Businesses in Dearborn lawfully meet the diverse needs of our Greater Detroit area, but if Dearborn practiced Sharia Law, would we have three adult entertainment bars and more alcohol licensed bars and restaurants per capita than most other cities? None of that should be allowed under Sharia Law.

How about this? A business we boast about, the nationally known Dearborn Sausage, opened more than 60 years ago across the street from the first mosque in Dearborn and is famous for its sausages and spiral-sliced hams. It is one of many meatpacking operations in our City and no one has ever objected.

Dearborn is also famous for The Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village, where more than 1.5 million visitors come each year from across the country and the world to learn about the foundations of our American way of life.

Dearborn is a diverse, safe and unified city that is addressing its future in a proactive manner. We cherish the American Dream that brought so many people here during the last century to earn a decent wage and enjoy a high quality of life thanks to Henry Ford and the Ford Motor Company. And for Dearborn, our success and our identity is tied to welcoming people of all backgrounds who have chosen to make America, and our community, their home. We are proud to have welcomed them.

As we work hard to balance your rights with the rights of others in Dearborn, you will be extended every courtesy during your visit–as long as you follow the law based on the Constitution’s protection of everyone’s rights. That should be a familiar statement to you.

You have said over and over that “Muslims are welcome as long as they follow the Constitution.” Surely, then, you wouldn’t ask less of yourself.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
beast786 said:
So now Egypt is our gold standard. I heard christian or any women cant drive in Saudi Arabia, maybe we should take Driver license from all the muslim woman in U.S
Our gold standard is a society where a man can legally and freely exercise his right to protest. That's our gold standard.
 
SoulPlaya said:
Muslims can't really complain, though. Churches in Egypt and Iraq get bombed, and their attendants murdered. Thankfully, all this guy wants to do is protest.
Could you explain this point a bit further? What do violence in Egypt or war torn Iraq have to do with this conversation?
 

beast786

Member
SoulPlaya said:
Our gold standard is a society where a man can legally and freely exercise his right to protest. That's our gold standard.

This is what you said:

Muslims can't really complain, though. Churches in Egypt and Iraq get bombed, and their attendants murdered. Thankfully, all this guy wants to do is protest.

Your standard is not based on constitution. But what other people do in other countries.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
OttomanScribe said:
Could you explain this point a bit further? What do violence in Egypt or war torn Iraq have to do with this conversation?
My point was in reaction to the statement that, "No Muslims come to your house of prayer to protect, so why do it to them?"

The statement is technically true, but I just say that if Christian Churches are being bombed in the Muslim world, then that's truly terrible. If all this guy wants to do is exercise his right to protest, then let him.

Yeah, the connection may seem vague, but as an Iraqi Christian (yeah, I know, I remind people a lot), who recently had a relative of mine die in one of those Church attacks, it irks me to see statements like that, because it seems to me like it's saying Muslims have done nothing to Churches worldwide.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I apologize, but it pisses me off to see attention and condemnation being placed on a guy who just wants to legally protest (and this guy has been getting A LOT of attention lately all over the world). Meanwhile, Churches get bombed, people get murdered, and they receive no attention, and I get told that it's Egypt (Or Iraq, or Saudi Arabia), so I should just expect it and be quiet. I'm sorry, but that just irks me, and I think I'm allowed to feel that way.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
beast786 said:
This is what you said:

Muslims can't really complain, though. Churches in Egypt and Iraq get bombed, and their attendants murdered. Thankfully, all this guy wants to do is protest.

Your standard is not based on constitution. But what other people do in other countries.
Let me ask you, do you think this guy should be allowed to protest?
 

GhaleonQ

Member
X-Frame said:
Wait, what?

So this is known and that's okay?

Even as someone who thinks anti-religion people are more ridiculous than threatening, I think police should probably be concerned about a Good Friday armed protest by an attention-seeker with wack-job theology.

Count Dookkake said:
Jesus came with a sword, so?

It's kind of awesome that after years of the "die by the sword" verse being used to argue for pacifism, there is a situation that it can literally be used. The man was brought before a court on Maundy Thursday, the exact day that was said. IT'S ALMOST LIKE THIS GUY IS SOME KIND OF FAUX-CHRISTIAN IMBECILE.
 
Dani said:
A pastor with a gun.

Yeah...

machete+cheech.jpg


"Father forgive them, for they know not what they say."
 

beast786

Member
SoulPlaya said:
Let me ask you, do you think this guy should be allowed to protest?

Absolutely YES.

But not because some musliim guy in Nepal told a christian guy he cant do it...... Which is your logic.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
beast786 said:
Absolutely YES.

But not because some musliim guy in Nepal told a christian guy he cant do it...... Which is your logic.
No, I explained why I made that comment in my earlier post.

I believe he should be allowed to because it's his right. I just wish the victims of recent Church bombings would get a fraction of the attention this guy gets.
 
SoulPlaya said:
My point was in reaction to the statement that, "No Muslims come to your house of prayer to protect, so why do it to them?"

The statement is technically true, but I just say that if Christian Churches are being bombed in the Muslim world, then that's truly terrible. If all this guy wants to do is exercise his right to protest, then let him.

Yeah, the connection may seem vague, but as an Iraqi Christian (yeah, I know, I remind people a lot), who recently had a relative of mine die in one of those Church attacks, it irks me to see statements like that, because it seems to me like it's saying Muslims have done nothing to Churches worldwide.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I apologize, but it pisses me off to see attention and condemnation being placed on a guy who just wants to legally protest (and this guy has been getting A LOT of attention lately all over the world). Meanwhile, Churches get bombed, people get murdered, and they receive no attention, and I get told that it's Egypt (Or Iraq, or Saudi Arabia), so I should just expect it and be quiet. I'm sorry, but that just irks me, and I think I'm allowed to feel that way.
There is always lot of reaction and action taken actually.
 

beast786

Member
SoulPlaya said:
No, I explained why I made that comment in my earlier post.

I believe he should be allowed to because it's his right. I just wish the victims of recent Church bombings would get a fraction of the attention this guy gets.

Both Iraq and Egypt have innocent people dying regardless of religion. There are sects wars between islamic groups in iraq. Both due to lack of stability.

The situation in US is very different. There are crimes against muslims by christian mobs in Nigera. Religious tension are escape goats in regions where there is lack of stability and often use religion as an escape goat of there problems and redirect to the minority.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
beast786 said:
Both Iraq and Egypt have innocent people dying regardless of religion. There are sects wars between islamic groups in iraq. Both due to lack of stability.

The situation in US is very different. There are crimes against muslims by christian mobs in Nigera. Religious tension are escape goats in regions where there is lack of stability and often use religion as an escape goat of there problems and redirect to the minority.
Then all those people are the ones who should be getting the condemnation and attention, not some attention-whore who just burned a Qu'ran.
 

Lamel

Banned
SoulPlaya said:
My point was in reaction to the statement that, "No Muslims come to your house of prayer to protect, so why do it to them?"

The statement is technically true, but I just say that if Christian Churches are being bombed in the Muslim world, then that's truly terrible. If all this guy wants to do is exercise his right to protest, then let him.

Yeah, the connection may seem vague, but as an Iraqi Christian (yeah, I know, I remind people a lot), who recently had a relative of mine die in one of those Church attacks, it irks me to see statements like that, because it seems to me like it's saying Muslims have done nothing to Churches worldwide.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I apologize, but it pisses me off to see attention and condemnation being placed on a guy who just wants to legally protest (and this guy has been getting A LOT of attention lately all over the world). Meanwhile, Churches get bombed, people get murdered, and they receive no attention, and I get told that it's Egypt (Or Iraq, or Saudi Arabia), so I should just expect it and be quiet. I'm sorry, but that just irks me, and I think I'm allowed to feel that way.

There was a story during Christmas in which there was a threat to bomb a Coptic church in Egypt and Muslims attended the church to sway off the attackers and protect the Christians.

Link: http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/3365.aspx


Anyway on topic, I'm glad the Muslim leader is expressing the fact that he should be allowed to protest and that Muslims won't be phased by his bigotry, good move.
 

beast786

Member
SoulPlaya said:
Then all those people are the ones who should be getting the condemnation and attention, not some attention-whore who just burned a Qu'ran.

Fair enough.

But we dont give a damn what happens outside of United States. I am pretty sure the news media knows whats hot .
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
Saadster said:
There was a story during Christmas in which there was a threat to bomb a Coptic church in Egypt and Muslims attended the church to sway off the attackers and protect the Christians.

Link: http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/3365.aspx
Yeah, I know. Those people should be getting praised, but truth be told, they received little attention from the media (not just GAF, lol). I've been hearing about this guy for too damn long now, with little else about those other stories.
 
Jones said he is not protesting against mosque itself but the "radical" elements in Islam. Jones said he chose the Islamic Center because it is billed as the largest mosque in North America and chose Dearborn because of its large concentration of Muslims.

And if someone were to protest a Christian or Catholic church because of the radical elements of it, these kind of people would assuredly support it?
 

Lamel

Banned
A Link to the Snitch said:
And if someone were to protest a Christian or Catholic church because of the radical elements of it, these kind of people would assuredly support it?

What kind of people?
 

Ripclawe

Banned
People protest Christians and Catholics churches all the time, in some part of the world they kill Christians and Catholics and burn their churches down. WE are a bit more civilized here.

Let the guy have his moment and if people want to protest go ahead. I will not support stopping him.
 
Kinitari said:
Let him protest, and Muslims need to cool their shit and ignore him, make him look like the fool that he is and walk away.
Yes but Pastor Yosemite Sam might not be able to because of "free-speech zone" stuff. I read this news earlier and if the Jury decides that he can't protest, it's not because he will hurt the worshipers feelings but because he's outside the "free speech zone". Those zones should be destroyed IMO.
 

Agnostic

but believes in Chael
RustyNails said:
Yes but Pastor Yosemite Sam might not be able to because of "free-speech zone" stuff. I read this news earlier and if the Jury decides that he can't protest, it's not because he will hurt the worshipers feelings but because he's outside the "free speech zone". Those zones should be destroyed IMO.
The free speech zone is between the Atlantic and Pacific Ocean. Those zones are bullshit, I agree.
 

Cyan

Banned
So we support Mr. Jones' right to speak, but we do so with our own postscript: That his message of bigotry and hate does not resonate here."
ACCESS won the thread.

And yes, the very concept of a "free speech zone" is bullshit.
 

Escape Goat

Member
Cyan said:
ACCESS won the thread.

And yes, the very concept of a "free speech zone" is bullshit.

It was described as a permit free zone intended for demonstrations and protests. you can assemble there without going through red tape (i'm assuming).
 
NEOPARADIGM said:
You claim that you are coming to protest the radicalism of Islam. Like all of America, we are concerned about the radicalization of any religion that would rationalize extreme actions. However we have not let this concern turn into a twisted paranoia that promotes fear-mongering and misleading generalizations. You state that you are coming to the Islamic Center of America because it is the largest mosque in America. What does that have to do with the radicalism of Islam? While size may matter to you, we prefer to focus on actual behavior. And according to our Police Department and the anti-terrorism agencies they work with, there has never been evidence of any wrongdoing in any of Dearborn’s mosques.

Quite honestly the most well-worded response to this whole Terry Jones situation. Great letter.
 

jaxword

Member
Teh Hamburglar said:
It was described as a permit free zone intended for demonstrations and protests. you can assemble there without going through red tape (i'm assuming).

That's the official smile-for-the-camera, we do it for YOUR protection, reasoning, yes.

On the unspoken side, it's quite clearly an attempt to keep the protestors and the protestED separate, so business can continue as usual, no altercations happen, and, really, the protestors will achieve nothing newsworthy.

Keep the gears of society turning...
 
WTF?

Is he going to become the next "God hates Fags" asshole preacher guy? Oh go ahead . . . you do more to discredit religion than Richard Dawkins can.
 

SKINNER!

Banned
NEOPARADIGM said:

Mayor O'Reilly said:
But, if you don’t believe that Dearborn follows the Constitution, here are some realistic facts for you. Businesses in Dearborn lawfully meet the diverse needs of our Greater Detroit area, but if Dearborn practiced Sharia Law, would we have three adult entertainment bars and more alcohol licensed bars and restaurants per capita than most other cities? None of that should be allowed under Sharia Law.

How about this? A business we boast about, the nationally known Dearborn Sausage, opened more than 60 years ago across the street from the first mosque in Dearborn and is famous for its sausages and spiral-sliced hams. It is one of many meatpacking operations in our City and no one has ever objected.


2ntvas8.gif



Incredible stuff right there. Let Pastor Terry talk as much as he wants and stay cool Dearborn.
 

Corky

Nine out of ten orphans can't tell the difference.
lightless_shado said:
wonder what would happen if an Imam wanted to protest at a church

TERRORIST!

Somebody pleeease think of the children.
 
I wish he would just shut up. It makes me sad that he is given so much attention. If people ignored him he would go away. As it is, he has the potential to wrongly taint people's perceptions of Americans and Christians.

Freedom of speech does not mean you hand the crazy man in the corner a loudspeaker. News organisations should no more advocate banning him as they should give him a voice greater than it would have been (over his congregation of 50) had they not plastered this stuff over news headlines from Mississippi to Mauritania.

And as for protesting at a mosque.. is this really that big a news story. Would people cover it if it wasn't the guy who said he was going to burn the Qur'an, didn't, then did later?
 
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