Pretty serious. Key words 'wrong'. Companies reserve the right to cancel your service for any reason they deem fit. Just pointing out its 2012 and we're still subject to 1876 laws.
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Just got my console (and I assume my account) banned from Live for playing Halo 4.
- Thread starter Skel1ingt0n
- Start date
Pretty serious. Key words 'wrong'. Companies reserve the right to cancel your service for any reason they deem fit. Just pointing out its 2012 and we're still subject to 1876 laws.
It's funny that you say that and then keep comparing it to things that are illegal. It is not like a drug deal, and it is not like cheating on taxes. Lets discuss the actual topic of the thread and the information provided by the OP. He bought a video game from a video game store, and then got banned by MS.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
Haint
Member
But the actual topic of the thread is MS's banning policy and the fact that it is conceivable for legitimate copies of a game to result in console/account termination. The OP's specific story is irrelevant given the knowledge that these "made up scenarios" are a very real possibility. Perhaps the OP was sold a copy under the table, perhaps the employee was ignorant of street dates, perhaps he was vindictive and looking to stick it to a shitty manager/workplace, or perhaps he was an asshole hoping to get unsuspecting customer(s) banned. The end result would have been the same in every situation, the OP would have been banned. This is why the specifics don't really matter and why this is a larger discussion than what you're trying to categorize it as to push your own agenda.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
Fixed for you. Btw, how can it be a legitimate copy of the game if it wasn't a legitimate sale?
The problem is the store selling it to him and breaking their street date. That is where the problem is. He would not have been banned had the store followed the rules they agreed to. He knew the sale was shady, knew there would be risks and he took them anyway. End of the day, he would not have been banned had he made a legitimate sale with the retailer for said game.
I have to agree with this.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Legalities aside, it is a shitty way to treat your paying customers. It gives me no confidence in Microsoft as a safe platform to purchase games for. Some people's conplacency about it is part of the problem.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
Sure it does if you buy games legitimately from non shady retailers.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
Yes but there's no way for MS to know that this is a copy bought in a store or not. All they know is that the release date is next week (not in 2 days) and the game popped up online way before its supposed to. So boom, banhammer. Either way someone fucked up and please don't say the consumer doesn't know. If hes on a gaming forum like neogaf, odds are, he fucking knows the games release date.
So you are questioning if the OP situation fits the term "wrong" in the contract. Not if the MS has the right to cancel the service without refund. Because its what every company does.
Microsoft's problem should, indeed, be with the retailer. Unfortunately, MS instead banned the OP, who didn't do anything at all wrong. He bought a video game. He didn't have any obligation to enforce MS's street date. That's why your analogies using illegal conduct are bullshit. In those cases, the person doing the buying is breaking the law.
You act as if MS had no choice, but of course they did. There was nothing inevitable about the ban. It wasn't out of MS's hands. I don't know why you give them a free pass. You say he should have known he was risking a ban, but that't not true. As I have posted several times, the entire issue is contrary to MS's stated policy. MS in the past said:
"If a user happens to purchase a legit copy of Halo 3: ODST early, then our problem is not with the user but the retailer who broke the street date. Those individuals will not be punished."
And yet here we have a use who purchased a legit copy early, and was punished. If MS has changed their policy, they ought to act least have the common courtesy to tell us.
IHaveCandy
Banned
I should not have to buy games from people only Microsoft deems okay.
So buying a game before it releases from a shady retailer is seen as okay to you?
IHaveCandy
Banned
Yes, absolutely. 100%. The customer is paying good money for a legal product. The manufacturer requested the retailer to hold the game and the retailer is obligated. The customer has no obligation and is still paying.
Except what you're saying isn't true.
If you call or tweet XBL Support and say you were banned for playing a game you just bought the first thing they're do is direct you to the ban forums so you can interact directly with the enforcement team.
XBL Support cannot do anything directly related to bans (as that's done by a separate department) but they will point customers in the right direction.
Doesnt matter if OP is a avid viewer of a gaming site like neogaf...point is..there are plenty that do not view these forums nor any other forums..so we cant just pinpoint this situation to the OP only..there are others out there that we do not know about that have been banned as well by playing a real legit game of Halo 4...regardless
Mizzou Gaming
Member
Just out of curiousity what about if the game was actually stolen?
Str0ngStyle
Member
To be fair, it has always been that you can only buy products from whom ever the manufacturer deems ok. For example before Apple used to only sell new products from their store or website only. Only recently did places like best buy officially sold Apple products
IHaveCandy
Banned
I do not think it is right for somebody to purchase something they know was stolen.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
Sure but its also up to the consumer to be well informed. Its not all on the stores backs all the time. This isn't a Microsoft store im assuming. Consumers have a responsibility too. They cant just always play dumb and get a "get out of jail free card". When "soccermom" goes and buys a violent game for her 5 year old, and then goes back and complains that the store let her walk out with it, it isn't the stores fault, its the moms fault for not being well informed as a consumer and as to what her kid is playing. Same shit. The store is wrong for selling the game early sure and now the guy is playing innocent for going online in a game that's not out for another week, and supposedly he didn't know, but found time to post about it on a gaming forum like neogaf that he regularly visits.
Please.
If that happened to me, i straight up call MS tell them what store fucked up, give them my bill number and have my account unbanned in about an hour. Oh but wait, he doesnt have his bill anymore........how perfect......just bought the game and first thing he did was throw the bill out before even leaving the store...... Why the hell would i protect a store that doesn't know what their doing. Fuck em.
IHaveCandy
Banned
That isn't true. If somebody had a Mac to sell, you could buy it from them. A manufacturer has the right to say who they will sell their product to. A manufacturer does not have the right to say where people are allowed to purchase that merchandise once they've already sold it. Doesn't matter if it was sold to a retailer or a person.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Customer- Hi, is Halo 4 out?
Employee- Uhh, yeah I have it here. Want to buy it?
Customer- Sure.
*Customer gets his system locked and he lost his receipt. Customer calls Xbox Support*
Customer- Why is my system banned?
Support- You have the game before it is out.
Customer- But the employee sold it to me and I asked him if was out. He didn't tell me anything.
Support- Can you send your receipt?
Customer- No, I didn't keep it. I lost it.
Support- Well we cannot tell if you pirated it or purchased it, so we're going to leave your system and account banned.
Customer- But how was I supposed to know all this? Why am I being blamed.
Support- It is your fault for not being an informed customer.
Customer- But I went to the retail store to be informed.
Support- Well, I'm informing you. Feel free to purchase another Xbox and XBLG account.
Big Chungus
Member
Don't xbox games have huge orange stickers on them stating not to sell the game before the official release date?
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Are you for real?
Yes. No retailer can use the excuse "I didn't know".
Str0ngStyle
Member
Based on what we know the initial transaction between the store and OP was nowhere near this open. There was SOME shadyness involved
That would be different, because knowingly buying stolen goods is illegal.
How do you accidentally sell something? And I don't believe any MS employee called the copy illegal, but if one did, he was wrong. There is nothing illegal about buying a game before the release date.
This is such bullshit. Customers are under no obligation to enforce release dates. We don't have a contract with MS stating that we will do so. Manufacturers also set price floors on products. Do you think you are required to know what the minimum advertised price for a Canon camera is, and to not buy the camera from a retailer for a lower price than the MAP?
It's not my job to enforce MS's contract with their retailer. Even MS acknowledges this. "If a user happens to purchase a legit copy of Halo 3: ODST early, then our problem is not with the user but the retailer who broke the street date. Those individuals will not be punished."
ShinobiFist
Banned
Yup. We don't own jack!
OldJadedGamer
Banned
Game was legit, the sale was not and the OP says that in the very first post.
The computer system at the retailer wouldn't allow the sale to go through if it was trying to be sold before launch date. That is why the OP said that the store didn't ring it up... it was because they couldn't. Remember, the OP called the whole sale "shady" and for good reason.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
Think of it this way, if this was a court of law with that info, the guy would lose his case plain and simple. You have to protect yourself, keep your bill. MS doesn't know you, they know 2 things: the game leaked out early (which was all over the net by the way) and 2, some people will try to hop online and play it early. Thats it that's all. If people hop online a week before the release then they have the right to do this and you can easily undo it with proof of purchase.
I suppose Mr. customer doesn't go on the internet either? Didn't hear about the leak or the steps MS have been taking to rid spoilers off internet sites and such? Id like like to see that rock hes been living under.
The guy knew something and hes playing dumb, there's no doubt in my mind about it. No one that goes on gaming forums is that ignorant about a game they're looking to buy. No one.
Sort of, I wasn't referring to the op specifically (i don't care to get dragged into the legitimate talk) but people in similar situations who completely legally purchased a game early and got banned for it. The refund thing is more of my personal disdain for how customers are treated these days but I'm not looking to shit up the thread any more than it already has been.
Yes. There's a fuck up on both ends here.
The retailer really screwed up.
MS screwed up by being too quick on the trigger finger. Realistically, MS knows when you have a modified console (in the majority of cases) so that's not really an excuse.
But the OP is also PARTLY being a little naive, just a little little bit, in thinking nothing would come of this. We're not talking a day early here, where it would have been obvious it was a street date break.
We're talking over a week early.
When I was sold CoD4 one day early in 07, the retailer even told me not to have my Xbox online before launch day. Although I already knew not to anyway.
It's just common sense for anyone remotely serious about games.
IdreamofHIME
Member
If they want to enforce this kind of policy, they shouldn't be shipping the games to stores weeks in advance.
Yup, I know it's one of the biggest launches ever....but if you can't tell the difference between store is selling copies early to the unaware public against pirate copies, you have no business banning people. It's their own fault for trying to be greedy.
Yup, I know it's one of the biggest launches ever....but if you can't tell the difference between store is selling copies early to the unaware public against pirate copies, you have no business banning people. It's their own fault for trying to be greedy.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
The OP wasn't unaware he admitted to being aware of the situation in the OP. He knew he was breaking street date and had them do the sale under the table. On paper even to the store, this sale never happened.
From Microsoft's perspective, the original poster ISN'T a paying customer. It was done under the table, meaning nothing was rung up. No receipt was provided. Everything was very hush hush, wink wink. It sounds like the OP will be a paying customer only once the sale is actually rung up on release day. Not Microsoft's fault, but it was nice of them to reinstate his account with no receipt, anyway.
Fun scenario. Why doesn't the customer go to the retailer to get another copy of his receipt? Easy enough to look that stuff up, especially with debit and credit transactions. Even cash transactions, if you know the time of day and are persistent, you should be fine... Especially considering the circumstance of the store screwing up royally. Why is the customer in this scenario pissed to high hell at Microsoft but not the retailer?
Uno Venova
Banned
Agreed, there is no reason for customers with legitimate copies to go through this bullshit, they need to know who is pirating before pulling the trigger.
How do they know it was under the table, and not rung up before they banned him.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
Thats exactly my point. Everyone is attacking MS but the easiest solutions on the consumers end aren't even being attempted. Sketchy much? And then im supposed to believe that this is all MSs fault? Come on.
The customer either knows very well what happened, or is a complete idiot.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Not everybody goes online all of the time and keep track of gaming news. That shouldn't be the expectation. We get plenty of customers who like games that are not aware of the risk of being banned. You'd have to be living under a rock to think a huge population of customers don't follow a game until they see it in store.
And why are so many people here tasting like MS's defense lawyers? Most people here safe not talking about legal liabilities for MS. This is a crappy DRM implimentation that hurts the wrong people. Ubisoft's always online DRM was universally despised and protested because it was treating honest customers like crap to catch pirates. This DRM is even worse because it crippled your Xbox and bans your account. This is terrible DRM, period
And why are so many people here tasting like MS's defense lawyers? Most people here safe not talking about legal liabilities for MS. This is a crappy DRM implimentation that hurts the wrong people. Ubisoft's always online DRM was universally despised and protested because it was treating honest customers like crap to catch pirates. This DRM is even worse because it crippled your Xbox and bans your account. This is terrible DRM, period
For the OP's point of view, the sale is perfectly legit. He walked into a game store, found a game he wanted, paid the asking price, left with the game. That is a legit sale.
So what. Why should I, a purchaser, give a shit when the game gets rung up? How on earth can that possibly matter to me? If MS and their retailer have a dispute, thats between the two of them.
Store employees not aware of street dates = accidentally
Its illegal for the MS policy over Xbox Live. Wrong or not, its their policy for years to combat piracy. Probably it got unusual cases as the OP. That's why you can read over the years people asking "Got the game early. Its safe to play online?".
First page
It's completely true, unless that policy has changed within the past few months. Xbox Live support is firmly instructed to completely stonewall any and all inquiries into account or console bans. Find a friend with a banned gamertag or console and call on his/her behalf, and see for yourself. I'm quite certain a number of other members here can back what I'm saying up with additional anecdotal evidence.
Frank, you're an awesome guy, but lets shoot straight here - the copy of the game the OP purchased is a completely legitimate copy, else it wouldn't have run on his 360 in the first place. The only "illegitimate" thing about this is the retailer breaking street date - the copy of the game itself has nothing to do with it.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Yes, let's redefine the word idiot
idiot- an individual that is unaware of the official release date of Halo 4.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
This is an interesting point that the OP isn't a paying customer, he did not buy the game at all. The sale hasn't gone through even to this day. If nothing else, the employee at the store stole the game from the company's stock and loaned it to the OP since the merchandise left the store without being legitimately purchased. If the store did an inventory check today, that game copy would be considered stolen/missing since it cannot be accounted for.
That is why the OP is hiding the store name.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
Or a person that doesn't keep a receipt of an electronic product he just bought that might be faulty or broken when he gets home.
No, the easiest solution is for MS to not ban their paying customer's consoles. Because street dates will always, always, be broken somewhere.
The word illegal does not appear in your quote. Do you know why that is? Because it's not illegal. And I don't know how you've decided which street date breaks are accidental and which aren't, but I'm damned sure MS's ban-bot can't tell.
It's only an interesting point if you have a complete ignorance of the law. The sale happened. The accounting of it is completely immaterial.
Nobody cares because the problem is the ban in the first place and the fact that a customer has any burden in a situatuon that they never should. The best solutions to what MS is claiming to want to fix should never even interact with their consumer base at any point.
The customer does get inconvenienced because he will have to email a pic of the receipt, I suppose. Again, something that the customer should be upset about the retailer about. Most of the time, that would not happen. Due to the big orange stickers on the games stating the street date and the POS registers refusing early sales, and all that.
IHaveCandy
Banned
We've all lost receipts. Lets not water down insults.
I generally believe that the burden of evidence should lie on the accuser, not the defendant.
It is pretty clear that MS have no way of separating a pirated copy from a real one, and that they are only assuming that most copies out there are pirated.
I would imagine that this is quite illegal in most countries with proper customer protection laws.
I do think it is nice that representatives from 343 have gone out of their way to resolve this though.
It is pretty clear that MS have no way of separating a pirated copy from a real one, and that they are only assuming that most copies out there are pirated.
I would imagine that this is quite illegal in most countries with proper customer protection laws.
I do think it is nice that representatives from 343 have gone out of their way to resolve this though.