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Kobe Bryant slinging homophobic slur during nationally televised NBA game
- Thread starter Aruarian Reflection
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Red Blaster
Member
Zeke said:
How about Kevin Garnett? Hell, if the league went after what KG has said he'd be banned for life.
dinazimmerman
Incurious Bastard
Reading this thread has left me with irreparable brain damage.
Mercury Fred
Banned
Well, since it was already posted in this thread more than once... I don't know. If you have any ideas, PM me.Londa said:
ZephyrFate
Banned
Well I don't know why that didn't happen. You'd have to ask the NBA about it.Dali said:
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
This made me LOLLonda said:
ohhthegore
Member
Gaborn said:
If anyone could pull this off it would be Stern
spindashing
Banned
I couldn't care less about Kobe or whatever he does. I'm not a basketball fan at all and I'm not the biggest Kobe fan in the world, but I did not need to conversate with myself with, "Oh, what if a white guy called Kobe a nigger. Wouldn't that be similar?"Kinitari said:
It came to me immediately that saying the word "faggot" was wrong on Kobe's part and that he should be reprimanded. Now if a proposed/hypothetical situation happened with a white basketball player speaking down angrily on a black player occurred, would you even need such a comparison for people to realize that the word "nigger" is a bad thing to do? More than likely no, because you can't use "nigger" in a different context other than referring to your friends in a slang manner when fooling around. I'd also bet if "faggot" couldn't be used in the context that people claim Kobe to be using, a comparison like this wouldn't be needed.
If that paragraph was unreadable, you'll have to excuse me. Allergy pills cause drowsiness.
Ultimately, context is the killer.
Nowhere in my post did I discredit Koodo's point or implied that his post was false, don't put words in my mouth. All I said was that although the two terms put down their respective groups of people -- that's where the similarities end. I more or less fortified his last paragraph.ZephyrFate said:
Gordon Shumway
Banned
This subject has me quite conflicted, but yeah. Wife just asked how me how much Hardaway was fined not 5 minutes ago..what is the league to do to make these retired folks shut their dirty mouths?! LolGaborn said:
again he's not Kobe. Kobe like it or not is the face of the NBA probably the most successful player next to Jordan. Of course the NBA is going to hit him hard. Is it fucked up he said what he did? Sure do I care to the extent a lot of people in here do? Hell no, I've heard a ton worse playing sports myself.Red Blaster said:
Black Mamba
Member
IIRC, The players association appeals ALL fines handed out to players (excluding technicals and flagrants) no matter the reason behind the fine. It's standard operating procedure. Even when Kobe said he was appealing the fine he said because "it's standard" to do so.
The appeal is about office politics, so to speak, not about the issue at all.
The appeal is about office politics, so to speak, not about the issue at all.
Red Blaster
Member
Dali said:
spindashing said:
You're missing the point that the supposed other "context" for the word faggot is divorced or separated from is prescribed use. It's instead an extension of its derogatory meaning, essentially sanctioning anti-gay speech by saying it's a different context. This other context that people are speaking of is intricately bound to society's overall negative view of homosexuality. I don't understand how people can miss so crucial a point.
Does he get some sort of "face of the NBA" bonus? No? Alright then they should have some uniformity or not fine them at all. Arbitrarily deciding who gets slapped with a fine and who doesn't isn't fair to anyone. I think that's the best thing Kobe has going for him when he appeals.Zeke said:
spindashing
Banned
I understand.SolKane said:
I'm not on the train supporting the, "Kobe shouldn't be reprimanded because he used the word in a different context than what it 'really means'." I wholeheartedly agree that he should be punished because regardless of how Kobe or his supporters see the word, I'm just saying that such a "context" exists, and may or may not be changed in said people's minds.
spindashing said:
First lemme just say I appreciate the long thought out responses, it's a lot more than I am used to getting in this thread, now let me get into it.
When I was juxtaposing the word nigger with faggot, it was never a white person calling a black person a nigger. No that was too easy, that's a different thing entirely. I would use examples like playing WoW, where someone would call Prince Malchazeer a Nigger for placing the flaming totems in impossible to avoid places. I asked people, if I started calling people who were intellectually dishonest "niggers" and people who were terrible at picking up women "chinks" - knowing that these words still were associated with their respective minorities, would these words no longer offend black people, or Asians?
My point was always to show people, that the association is still there, and with the word faggot it is there stronger than in my examples because when you call someone a faggot, a lot of the times it's because you are deriding his effeminate attributes, implying he is less than a man - not necessarily a homosexual, but he exhibits traits 'found in homosexuality'.
etiolate said:
What don't you agree with:
Faggot is a slur and derogatory term.
Faggot in modern parlance denotes a male homosexual.
Faggot, when applied to a male homosexual, is an insult.
Faggot, when applied to anyone, is an insult.
These are the suppositions underlying my post. What do you feel is wrong, or needs to be added?
edit: Obviously, there is an underlying assumption that to be called a male homosexual is an insult. That is the main issue here.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
This is the first place, ever, that I've seen someone (well, more than a few) try to argue in all seriousness that 'faggot' isn't a derogatory term referring to gay men and instead can be used as a term meaning 'asshole' or the like. The fuck?
I have my own feelings on the outrage over this thing and peoples sensitivity to it but if you're seriously arguing the above, you're full of shit.
I have my own feelings on the outrage over this thing and peoples sensitivity to it but if you're seriously arguing the above, you're full of shit.
This:
involves some assumption.
It could be that the other use of the word has a context involving acting a certain way that is disliked and at this point has become divorced from the word's tie to homosexuality. If it has become a meaning of its own that has divorced itself from attack speech against homosexuals then it is not an extension of the previous meaning. Now, I say at this point because maybe at some point it was used both ways and then developed away from being an insult to moniker someone as being homosexual and homosexual being bad, but I cannot know that for sure because it would involve the impossible ability to have heard the word every time anyone used it and tracked its development. Yet, even then, if I could know that, the nature of language would still distance meanings over usage and time.
involves some assumption.
It could be that the other use of the word has a context involving acting a certain way that is disliked and at this point has become divorced from the word's tie to homosexuality. If it has become a meaning of its own that has divorced itself from attack speech against homosexuals then it is not an extension of the previous meaning. Now, I say at this point because maybe at some point it was used both ways and then developed away from being an insult to moniker someone as being homosexual and homosexual being bad, but I cannot know that for sure because it would involve the impossible ability to have heard the word every time anyone used it and tracked its development. Yet, even then, if I could know that, the nature of language would still distance meanings over usage and time.
The difficulty with saying it is divorced from it's meaning as a slur against gay people is, who gets to decide that. With the word 'nigger' black people, correctly, get to determine that based on their feelings, since the word referenced them originally. It doesn't seem that gay people get to decide when that point is reached for 'faggot'.etiolate said:
spindashing
Banned
I am still under the belief that the words are different. They may incite similar reactions in the people utilizing them and or receiving them, but that's it. I agree totally with those who say that the terms are similar, for they are slurs aimed in putting the speaker at a higher state than the receiver.Kinitari said:
In your WoW example, those words should offend their respective minorities. Merely because the words are apparently being used in a different context by the speaker should not decrease the amount of negative potency in the words. I'm sure the NBA would have took the same action if any other person of any descent was in the same position Kobe was in.
But also when you call a black person (or quite possibly any other race, I'm speaking for myself here out of experience) a nigger out of sheer anger, the word implies that the receiver is sub-human and nor not on the speaker's level; it's almost as if the receiver is not capable of human thoughts/skills and only exists to cater to/entertain the person utilizing the term. It is as if the receiver is uneducated..
It's quite similar to "faggot", some may agree, some may disagree. For the people that cannot agree that Kobe was wrong saying such a word, even as a model for children/people, I cannot agree or fathom why. Regardless of connotation, it should never be used.
The truth is everyone ends up deciding by continued use and variation of a word.
Hell, if a culture becomes more dominant than American western culture, and that culture has a radically different meaning for shit, then by influence and use, that new meaning can take hold. Unless, by being introduced to our idea of shit, their use of the word is altered and transformed. So, in the end, nobody owns shit, it just happens.
Hell, if a culture becomes more dominant than American western culture, and that culture has a radically different meaning for shit, then by influence and use, that new meaning can take hold. Unless, by being introduced to our idea of shit, their use of the word is altered and transformed. So, in the end, nobody owns shit, it just happens.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
This is complete garbage. The word has not 'evolved over time' to mean anything different at all. Would you say 'stop being a fuckin' faggot' to someone in front of a gay guy? Probably not. The word hasn't been divorced from its original meaning, not even close! Do you seriously believe this? Monocle summed this up perfectly earlier in the thread. It's a slur because it's likening someone to the supposedly undesirable trait of being an (effeminate) gay man.etiolate said:
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
Yeah. Madness. Like I said, you ask 100 people what a 'faggot' means and they'll all say the same thing.Gaborn said:
etiolate said:
Words don't evolve in a bubble. There are larger social and cultural contexts that determine meanings of words. The onus is on someone who would deny the connection between faggot as an insult to a homosexual and faggot as a more general slur to prove they are separate, IMO. There's a clear logical connection between the two. As an example, the word "wigger." Well, it's a portmanteau of "white" and "nigger." It didn't evolve into its use as derogatory term without some connection to its origins, namely, that being a nigger is a bad thing, and that being a white nigger is also a bad thing. One hundred years from now, hypothetically, sure, we could say that "faggot" eventually becomes a generalized insult that personifies some negative quality about a person. The same could be said of a word like "geek" which historically meant a crazy person, or fool. But that ignores the present context completely. The present context is that prevailing, normative attitudes construct homosexuality as something that is wrong or aberrant, and its effect on language is to sanction use of homosexual slurs in a general derogatory sense. The ideology is that homosexuality is wrong, and that people are condemned not for practicing it, but are condemned as implicit practioners through the use of faggot as an insult. We have to keep in mind faggot is always directed at someone - it's always meant as an insult. It's not entered into the modern lexicon as a general exclamation or interjection. To my knowledge people aren't saying "Oh, faggot, I forgot my keys in the house!" They are saying instead "I don't like you - You are a faggot."
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
I am making it my job to say exactly this asap.SolKane said:
If people aren't using it to mean acting effeminate then is the connection still there in your mind?
I find it strange that the slur is what people are talking about. It is the least interesting or offending part of this. Stern is using gay rights issues for his own interests and that sort of patronizing doesn't do the cause any good.
I find it strange that the slur is what people are talking about. It is the least interesting or offending part of this. Stern is using gay rights issues for his own interests and that sort of patronizing doesn't do the cause any good.
spindashing said:
I pretty much agree with everything you say here.
etiolate said:
People are still using it as an insult. Take any other insult directed at a minority, and use it to insult someone - lets say someone who scratches your paint when parking next to your car, and the word is still hurtful to the minority. I am not sure you are a minority, or if you have any slurs that can be attributed to you, but imagine if people instead of saying "Dude, did you see that fucking asshole?" they said "Dude, did you see that fucking wetback?" - wouldn't that word still offend you, even in the context it was used?
I don't know who Stern is.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
I know what you're trying to say, but of course he didn't say it because the ref was 'acting effeminate'. "Faggot" is a slur used against another man (and never a woman as Gaborn pointed out) because it's attempting to insult/belittle someone's masculinity for the reasons I said earlier. It's a slur because of its origins!etiolate said:
Also like I said, I really don't care what Kobe Bryant says, or the repercussions to him - I am more confused by how anyone is attempting to argue what you're claiming. It's ridiculous.
spindashing
Banned
Kinitari said:
I dunno. I don't agree with "would have took." I'm going back to 5th grade. =P
You can use faggot against a woman. It seems the word is turning into an insult that means that person is killing the vibe. That, whatever they are doing, is screwing up how things were going. It can still be used as you say, but I think there is a meaning here that's developed beyond the masculinity and homosexuality angle.
Yes, this is true. It's standard protocol.Black Mamba said:
Kobe was on Mason & Ireland
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/radio/show?showId=masonireland
9 minute interview in the Audio Highlights section.
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