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[Mumei]

You may be able to brain wash someone weak minded but you are never going to get me to agree with this. You and Zep are tools for continuly bring that one statement up. That has already frustrated people and cause them to leave the conversation. You don't want real discussion. You just want to hear yourself say these made up things. I wish you would say that to a black person on the street.

I don't know, my brainwashing powers are pretty impressive.

And they aren't "made up things." They are things that I (and Kinitari, it seems) inferred from your statements. He was actually making an attempt at empathy and understanding your motivations for the position you took.

Also, I'm quite interested in discussion. You don't really provide opportunity for discussion, entertaining as you might be, but half-and-half seems to be doing just fine so far.

And can I ask a gay black person, or is that cheating?

 

[ZephyrFate]

I don't know, my brainwashing powers are pretty impressive.

And they aren't "made up things." They are things that I (and Kinitari, it seems) inferred from your statements. He was actually making an attempt at empathy and understanding your motivations for the position you took.

Also, I'm quite interested in discussion. You don't really provide opportunity for discussion, entertaining as you might be, but half-and-half seems to be doing just fine so far.

And can I ask a gay black person, or is that cheating?

I had this discussion with Delio (who is a gay black man) and like the Gays vs. Blacks War of 2010, he doesn't understand why there is such division between the communities over our struggles. Or why people play the oppression Olympics over it.

 

[Kinitari]

Yep that is 100% exactly what I said isn't it.

I just thought it was a nice gesture to be told to fuck off for no reason apart from being straight.

To be fair, that's not what he said. While I'm not one to cuss people off, he was targeting the straight people who were saying that gay people shouldn't take offence to the insult faggot being used.

 

[ZephyrFate]

To be fair, that's not what he said. While I'm not one to cuss people off, he was targeting the straight people who were saying that gay people shouldn't take offence to the insult faggot being used.

I hope from now on no one else uses that argument. It makes no fucking sense. Faggot has and still does always mean a homosexual slur. Whether or not it means other uses doesn't actually matter. If you walk up to anyone on the street, anywhere in America, they'll tell you the same thing.

 

[Mumei]

We've actually had a topic explicitly dedicated to this subject before, when a CNN contributor wrote an op-ed arguing that "gay is not the new black." It was quickly derailed by vandalvideo's Lawful Neutral hilarity and surprisingly deep knowledge of ex-gay researchers, but Matix had an excellent post towards the end of the topic. Unfortunately, it had sort of run its course by the time he came.

 

[Half and half]

If you can't understand why minority struggles are similar and have connections then you really don't understand anything.

If you can't understand how your comments are divisive and rude, then I'd ask that you stop speaking for minorities.

 

[ZephyrFate]

We've actually had a topic explicitly dedicated to this subject before, when a CNN contributor wrote an op-ed arguing that "gay is not the new black." It was quickly derailed by vandalvideo's Lawful Neutral hilarity and surprisingly deep knowledge of ex-gay researchers, but Matix had an excellent post towards the end of the topic. Unfortunately, it had sort of run its course by the time he came.

Best part is the whole "40 years is nothing compared to 400 blood-soaked years". It's like the author of that article completely dismissed homophobia that has existed over all cultures and societies ever since societies formed.

 

[Londa]

I had this discussion with Delio (who is a gay black man) and like the Gays vs. Blacks War of 2010, he doesn't understand why there is such division between the communities over our struggles. Or why people play the oppression Olympics over it.

Do you want blacks to rally for you or something? Black rights have nothing to do with the struggle of a gay person. So naturally they aren't concerned. There are gay blacks, so not all blacks are divided.

I would assume that because a lot of blacks are Christians, they believe that the bible and god is against gay sexual acts. That could be their reason for not joining arms with you.

 

[ZephyrFate]

If you can't understand how your comments are divisive and rude, then I'd ask that you stop speaking for minorities.

So... you don't understand anything about the similarity between minority struggles, then. Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Do you want blacks to rally for you or something? Black rights have nothing to do with the struggle of a gay person. So naturally they aren't concerned. There are gay blacks, so not all blacks are divided.

I would assume that because a lot of black are Christians, they believe that the bible and god is against gay sexual acts. That could be their reason for not joining arms with you.

Or, you know, the pissing contest that sprang up in this thread about how "my struggle is greater than yours!" as if that's reason enough to not care.

 

[Mercury Fred]

Do you want blacks to rally for you or something? Black rights have nothing to do with the struggle of a gay person. So naturally they aren't concerned. There are gay blacks, so not all blacks are divided.

Actually no. They have everything to do with each other.

 

[Mumei]

Do you want blacks to rally for you or something? Black rights have nothing to do with the struggle of a gay person. So naturally they aren't concerned. There are gay blacks, so not all blacks are divided.

Something something injustice anywhere something something

And I was actually thinking of something more... mutual, which is probably why gay and black rights groups have worked together in the past and why I think it is a good thing that we support one another.

I would assume that because a lot of blacks are Christians, they believe that the bible and god is against gay sexual acts. That could be their reason for not joining arms with you.

Perhaps. And what's your reason?

 

[numble]

So the Lakers announced they are working with GLAAD:

"In light of this slur, there is a real opportunity to build support for our community and educate fans of Kobe Bryant, the Los Angeles Lakers, and the NBA about the use of such words," GLAAD President Jarrett Barrios said in the statement. "The Los Angeles Lakers have taken a positive step and we look forward to working with them to create messages from players and coaches that combat bullying. We also suggested and will continue to advocate for zero tolerance policies for anti-gay slurs at home games, similar to what the New York Yankees adopted last year."

 

[ZephyrFate]

Wow, finally some good news.

 

[commish]

Actually no. They have everything to do with each other.

Instead of just posting conclusions, why not explain how they have everything to do with each other? If you've already posted as much, then include a link to the explanation?

 

[Kinitari]

I think if anything, people are going to start throwing around the word faggot a lot less. Which is good, I guess. While you can't really reach out to the people who say it and mean it as an anti-gay remark, you can at least encourage a movement in which it doesn't become second nature to insult someone with a slur - even 'innocently' so.

Instead of just posting conclusions, why not explain how they have everything to do with each other? If you've already posted as much, then include a link to the explanation?

Again, not to speak on his behalf, but it's pretty clear isn't it? The struggles for equality are universal - if these groups do not work together for this goal, you create dividing lines and you become tools to be used against each other. If you are struggling for equality, remember you are no more equal than anyone else.

 

[spindashing]

I think if anything, people are going to start throwing around the word faggot a lot less. Which is good, I guess. While you can't really reach out to the people who say it and mean it as an anti-gay remark, you can at least encourage a movement in which it doesn't become second nature to insult someone with a slur - even 'innocently' so.

I can definitely get behind that. Something that decreases such a trend would be great.

A similar thing is happening in the World Wrestling Entertainment federation; GLAAD is partnering with the WWE and the WWE have taken steps to cease anti-gay activities.

 

[Mercury Fred]

Instead of just posting conclusions, why not explain how they have everything to do with each other? If you've already posted as much, then include a link to the explanation?

Oppressed minorities have much more power in working together and coalition building than in working apart. It's pretty basic imo.

I've demonstrated with Anti-Racist Action, demo'd for women's rights, and protested against the Iraq war. I'm a white gay guy yet I have an interest in fighting oppression that may not seem to directly serve my most immediate interests.

 

[Dead Man]

Wow, this got ugly again, huh? Anyway, can't sleep, (insomnia, yay) and a thought occurred to me. There is no word for 'gay' that is not also used as an insult, generic or otherwise. At least that I can think of. I couldn't think of another group in that situation. I'm sure there are, or there are words for gay that are not used as insults that I may not be familiar with. So if anyone can enlighten me, please do.

Edit: Maybe women are in that situation too, don't know at 4 in the morning.

 

[commish]

Again, not to speak on his behalf, but it's pretty clear isn't it? The struggles for equality are universal - if these groups do not work together for this goal, you create dividing lines and you become tools to be used against each other. If you are struggling for equality, remember you are no more equal than anyone else.

Which groups? Based on race and sexuality? What about those who want equality for their religion? What if that religion contains practices that are not in line with what society deems is right? Equality is most certainly not universal.

 

[Londa]

Or, you know, the pissing contest that sprang up in this thread about how "my struggle is greater than yours!" as if that's reason enough to not care.

Ok, you should have said you didn't want a real answer to your question.

 

[Londa]

Something something injustice anywhere something something

And I was actually thinking of something more... mutual, which is probably why gay and black rights groups have worked together in the past and why I think it is a good thing that we support one another.



Perhaps. And what's your reason?

Did I say I hate gays? Nice bait but I won't bite.

 

[scorcho]

Best part is the whole "40 years is nothing compared to 400 blood-soaked years". It's like the author of that article completely dismissed homophobia that has existed over all cultures and societies ever since societies formed.

It's obvious that his thesis is based on an American-centric viewpoint.

 

[commish]

Oppressed minorities have much more power in working together and coalition building than in working apart. It's pretty basic imo.

I've demonstrated with Anti-Racist Action, demo'd for women's rights, and protested against the Iraq war. I'm a white gay guy yet I have an interest in fighting oppression that may not seem to directly serve my most immediate interests.

That doesn't explain what they have to do with one another. Yes, fighting oppression for the groups you believe are oppressed is fine and all, but all of the groups you mentioned are fighting different issues and are at different points in their progress. Sure, we can just say that "well, they all want equality!!", but we both know that "equality" is a pretty nebulous term. That's the main point I think some people are trying to make. If we step back a few miles, all these groups are struggling for equality, but when you get to the micro level, there are a whole host of issues and obstacles and circumstances that separate each group's struggle that makes comparing the two very difficult, at best. It's just too simplistic a view of reality to say that all these struggles have so much in common.

Anyway, I'm stepping out of this train wreck.

 

[Mumei]

Did I say I hate gays? Nice bait but I won't bite.

No, I asked what your reason for not joining arms was. I don't know what's up with your reading comprehension.

 

[Londa]

No, I asked what your reason for not joining arms was. I don't know what's up with your reading comprehension.

Then I guess you don't understand how that could easily be seen as me hating something, for not joining arms with them. I'm not gay, that should be enough reason. I don't have to fight someone elses battle. Maybe you should fight your own?

 

[Half and half]

We shouldn't join arms because gays are oppressed and blacks were too. We should join arms because gays are oppressed and we have a heart.

 

[TommyT]

How the hell is this thread so long? Is it even about Kobe anymore or still about who had it worse between gay people and black people?!

 

[Mercury Fred]

That doesn't explain what they have to do with one another. Yes, fighting oppression for the groups you believe are oppressed is fine and all, but all of the groups you mentioned are fighting different issues and are at different points in their progress. Sure, we can just say that "well, they all want equality!!", but we both know that "equality" is a pretty nebulous term. That's the main point I think some people are trying to make. If we step back a few miles, all these groups are struggling for equality, but when you get to the micro level, there are a whole host of issues and obstacles and circumstances that separate each group's struggle that makes comparing the two very difficult, at best. It's just too simplistic a view of reality to say that all these struggles have so much in common.

Anyway, I'm stepping out of this train wreck.

Both groups lack the full suite of white male privilege. A black guy can't necessarily walk into a jewelry store and not be looked at funny. A gay can't necessarily put a photo of his family on his desk at work and not get a hard time.

To me, the only people in this country who benefit from oppressed minorities not having each other's backs are straight, white men. The power that power is de-centralized from that group, the more everyone else benefits. A light example is Obama. The sheer fact that a black guy is president makes the possibility of a woman, other racial minority or even a gay person seem much more real.

 

[ZephyrFate]

It's obvious that his thesis is based on an American-centric viewpoint.

Except that I'm pretty sure it wasn't okay to be gay before Stonewall. Sure, we didn't have slavery, but shit was still bad.

 

[Mercury Fred]

Then I guess you don't understand how that could easily be seen as me hating something, for not joining arms with them. I'm not gay, that should be enough reason. I don't have to fight someone elses battle. Maybe you should fight your own?

Pathetic.

 

[scorcho]

Except that I'm pretty sure it wasn't okay to be gay before Stonewall. Sure, we didn't have slavery, but shit was still bad.

Slavery and the whole construct of having ones existence deemed as mere property is kinda big.

 

[Dead Man]

Slavery and the whole construct of having ones existence deemed as mere property is kinda big.

Will you two knock it off?

 

[Koodo]

Mumei left a trail of destruction. I don't know why the limping corpses still think they have a fighting chance.

 

[Mumei]

Then I guess you don't understand how that could easily be seen as me hating something, for not joining arms with them. I'm not gay, that should be enough reason. I don't have to fight someone elses battle. Maybe you should fight your own?

That's pretty selfish of you. You don't see how minorities being, well, minorities, causes them to depend on coalition building between other minorities and sympathetic members of the majority in order to make advances?

And Half-and-half, I don't think that's necessarily an either-or proposition.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Will you two knock it off?

This.

Agree to disagree. Sometimes, it is the only way forward.

 

[commish]

Both groups lack the full suite of white male privilege. A black guy can't necessarily walk into a jewelry store and not be looked at funny. A gay can't necessarily put a photo of his family on his desk at work and not get a hard time.

To me, the only people in this country who benefit from oppressed minorities not having each other's backs are straight, white men. The power that power is de-centralized from that group, the more everyone else benefits. A light example is Obama. The sheer fact that a black guy is president makes the possibility of a woman, other racial minority or even a gay person seem much more real.

What, rich white male privilege? What about poor white males? Do muslim white males share all of these privileges? A black guy can't go into a jewelry store without being looked at funny - how do you intend to change this? Would fining people every time they looked at a black man funny REALLY impact how they behaved? What they truly believed? Is fining Kobe 2 billion dollars really going to change what he believes? Will it improve how people react to that gay man's family picture on his desk? Will fining people vast sums of money improve the relations between the various groups? You honestly don't think that there are people who had negative feelings toward gays simply because Kobe got fined for saying what he did?

Again, you guys are just painting way too simplistic a picture.

 

[commish]

Except that I'm pretty sure it wasn't okay to be gay before Stonewall. Sure, we didn't have slavery, but shit was still bad.

Yikes. Not touching this with a 90 foot pole.

 

[Mumei]

What, rich white male privilege? What about poor white males? Do muslim white males share all of these privileges? A black guy can't go into a jewelry store without being looked at funny - how do you intend to change this? Would fining people every time they looked at a black man funny REALLY impact how they behaved? What they truly believed? Is fining Kobe 2 billion dollars really going to change what he believes? Will it improve how people react to that gay man's family picture on his desk? Will fining people vast sums of money improve the relations between the various groups? You honestly don't think that there are people who had negative feelings toward gays simply because Kobe got fined for saying what he did?

Again, you guys are just painting way too simplistic a picture.

I think in actuality you are painting too simplistic a picture of his position.

 

[Londa]

Pathetic.

Yet what have you done for the rights of blacks to demand blacks to fight for you?

 

[scorcho]

Will you two knock it off?

Why. I want him to flesh out his thought as I find this debate interesting.

 

[spindashing]

Will you two knock it off?

I was hoping for this a few days ago yet it's still going back and forth. For what reason? I doubt there's anything at all to gain from this banter. It's not even an educated discussion anymore, it's almost analgous to kids arguing in a playground.

I gave my two cents already. There's a certain level of immaturity present right now that I'd rather not contribute to.

 

[numble]

Kobe Bryant made an appearance on the Dan Patrick Show on Friday and addressed the anti-gay slur he screamed at referee Bennie Adams during Tuesday night's game against the Spurs.

The Lakers star, who was fined $100,000 by the NBA for the remark, said his outburst was "stupid and ignorant."

"It's about getting that message out there man, to kill that word," he said. "Just don't use it, just don't use it. And hopefully others can learn from the situation that occured and just knock that word out completely."

Bryant went on to say that he hasn't reached out to Adams because he wasn't sure if players are allowed to contact officials off the court.

It was announced on Friday that the Lakers and the NBA have partnered with the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation to address anti-gay slurs in basketball.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/15/kobe-bryant-kill-that-word_n_849776.html

But Kobe won't learn his lesson unless we fine him over half a million dollars.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Slavery and the whole construct of having ones existence deemed as mere property is kinda big.

Where in my post did I say that it wasn't huge? All I said was that it was still absolutely bad to be homosexual pre-Stonewall.

 

[DarkNtity]

Wow, this got ugly again, huh? Anyway, can't sleep, (insomnia, yay) and a thought occurred to me. There is no word for 'gay' that is not also used as an insult, generic or otherwise. At least that I can think of. I couldn't think of another group in that situation. I'm sure there are, or there are words for gay that are not used as insults that I may not be familiar with. So if anyone can enlighten me, please do.

Edit: Maybe women are in that situation too, don't know at 4 in the morning.

The extreme solution would be a grand experiment. The invention of a new word to identify gay folk. And if that word also gets sullied (bet your ass it will), then people will have to shut the fuck up and question their mindsets because the words with their engineered faux duality carry a hateful and demeaning connotation.

Offender: "I didn't mean to say sissy, debased same-sex lover, I meant lame, sucks or stupid"
Victim: "But I'm the one who actually identifies myself with the word. Is there a historical, sociological or cultural reason why every variation of it must be vilified? Is society saying I'm broken or sub human?"
Offender: "Dude, it's playground talk, don't be a tight ass, duuuh!"

 

[Dead Man]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/15/kobe-bryant-kill-that-word_n_849776.html

But Kobe won't learn his lesson unless we fine him over half a million dollars.

You were doing so well, and then you had to leave that snide comment under the article. Oh well. Glad to see, it is the sort of comment he should have made initially. But good to see, none the less.

 

[spindashing]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/15/kobe-bryant-kill-that-word_n_849776.html

But Kobe won't learn his lesson unless we fine him over half a million dollars.

Seriously?

At any rate, a Public relations representative could have made Kobe say all that. I don't know Kobe in person, so I've no idea if his apology was geniune but the fact of the matter is that it is good NBA reprimanded him and are taking steps to cease future outbursts like these.

 

[Mercury Fred]

Yet what have you done for the rights of blacks to demand blacks to fight for you?

I'm not demanding anything.

But you might want to read, oh five posts up or so.

 

[numble]

You were doing so well, and then you had to leave that snide comment under the article. Oh well. Glad to see, it is the sort of comment he should have made initially. But good to see, none the less.

It's only snide because people were saying he's not going to learn his lesson, he's not going to stop using the word, and that he should be fined $600,000+ dollars for a remark. It was the largest monetary fine ever handed down to a player by the NBA, even more than when players actually got in the faces of referees, or injured other players, and people were still saying it was meaningless.

 

[Dead Man]

It's only snide because people were saying he's not going to learn his lesson, he's not going to stop using the word, and that he should be fined $600,000+ dollars for a remark. It was the largest monetary fine ever handed down to a player by the NBA, even more than when players actually got in the faces of referees, or injured other players, and people were still saying it was meaningless.

I would still say the fine was meaningless. I have no doubt it was pressure from sponsors, or his PR people worried about sponsors, that prompted the statement more than anything else. The important thing is that he has made the statement.