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[Dead Man]

What partial justification? I've never justified Kobe's actions. I've placed them in light of other NBA punishments, how the NBA has punished taunting, physical altercations, criminal convictions, etc. and compared the level of punishment to give context to reasons why I don't agree with the calls for half a million dollars (and more) fines.

And I've also argued that people are not going after other similarly situated perpetrators with the same vigor.

I agree that it is bad for players to disrespect refs, and I've said in past pages that there is a structured discipline system of technical fouls (which carry mandatory fines) and the league office can add additional fines, but they've never suspended a player for arguing with a ref, or insulting a ref, only if there is an actual physical confrontation.

The referee can punish you on the spot for insulting him. The player can only appeal to the league after the game is over, after you've probably been ejected.

What spotlight is there on referee actions? The former referee Tim Donaghy (who was convicted in 2008 of fixing games with the mafia) wrote an entire book on how he was able to fix games and demonstrate bias towards certain players.

The refs are 1-inch tall on the screen when you're watching them, you don't know what they say until the players talk to reporters after the game. It's laughable that you think a referee that goes around directly insulting players is going to act with less bias.

From all that, I would say the NBA needs to fundamentally overhaul the way the game is run. In every sport I follow, if refs continually make bad decisions or make biased decisions there are consequences. If players or refs disrespect one another there are consequences. Sounds like it is just poorly run.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Let's just leave your "probably hyperbolic beyond recognition" tale alone.



Nobody's going to answer your stupid rhetorical question about turning the offensiveness of a word into a point-value system. And if you are serious and want an actual answer, that's even stupider.

In today's society, "nigger" is considered the most offensive word in the English language, more so than "faggot". Look them up and the definitions will tell you the same. You're going to have to find some way to deal with it.



Dead Man was right. You need to calm down.

Just because nigger is more offensive than faggot doesn't mean faggot isn't incredibly, horribly offensive and isn't rooted to its homosexual slur basis in almost every way.

That's simply not good enough.

 

[krypt0nian]

When are the Oppression Olympics medal ceremonies?

 

[MIMIC]

So what is the fucking point in pointing out that one is "worse" than the other?? What purpose does pointing out that nigger is "more" offensive than faggot serve?

LOL, I'm going to arbitrarily assign a number so you can troll me for whatever you think is wrong with my decision (which you would be perfectly within your rights of doing). No thanks.

I don't determine how society views a word/action. It's based on a lot of things.....but if I REALLY try to unearth the reasons as to why "nigger" is more offensive than "faggot", it'll be a perfect opportunity for someone to scream Oppression Olympics (for the billionth time).

It's a rather genius strategy.

I've already found a way to deal with it. It's called not giving a fuck.

OK then.

 

[ZephyrFate]

LOL, I'm going to arbitrarily assign a number so you can troll me for whatever you think is wrong with my decision (which you would be perfectly within your rights of doing). No thanks.

I don't determine how society views a word/action. It's based on a lot of things.....but if I REALLY try to unearth the reasons as to why "nigger" is more offensive than "faggot", it'll be a perfect opportunity for someone to scream Oppression Olympics (for the billionth time).

It's a rather genius strategy.



OK then.

It still really doesn't change the fact that faggot is a terrible word and is tied to homosexuality in a big way.

So... continue on, but realize that your point falls short of the mark in the face of that truth.

 

[MIMIC]

It still really doesn't change the fact that faggot is a terrible word and is tied to homosexuality in a big way.

So... continue on, but realize that your point falls short of the mark in the face of that truth.

Do you think Kobe was insulting the ref for being gay, or was calling him effeminate?

 

[Kinitari]

You can't tell someone how offended to be at a word, I am more offended at being called a nigger than a faggot. A gay person would feel the other way around. Trying to compare the level of offence is absolutely useless.

What is more pertinent, I think, is discussing the level of taboo assigned to each word - something a bit more objective, but even, not very objective (as location and time pay a heavy role in this).

More importantly, the fact that people get offended that these two words are compared or held in the same esteem (fucking offensive slur that should not be used, as a direct insult or as a passing out-of-context insult) is mind boggling. I still don't understand why that bothers people, serious, as long as this thread has gone the only real answer I've gotten as to why that bothers people is that it "undermines what black people have gone through" which makes literally, no sense to me. If someone could clarify WHY this undermines the civil rights movements for blacks, or something, please - tell me.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Do you think Kobe was insulting the ref for being gay, or was calling him effeminate?

Either? What difference does it make?

 

[Treefingers]

Umm... why do you think it was an insult? Because it is a slur for gay. Just because you didn't know that does not men it did not have that meaning.

It did not have that meaning for a lot of people.

 

[ZephyrFate]

It did not have that meaning for a lot of people.

This is as broad and unsupported a statement as this thread has ever had. Prove this.

 

[Mercury Fred]

but if I REALLY try to unearth the reasons as to why "nigger" is more offensive than "faggot", it'll be a perfect opportunity for someone to scream Oppression Olympics (for the billionth time).

No, please indulge us. I'm dying to hear your explanation.

 

[Satyamdas]

LOL, I'm going to arbitrarily assign a number so you can troll me for whatever you think is wrong with my decision (which you would be perfectly within your rights of doing). No thanks.

I don't determine how society views a word/action. It's based on a lot of things.....but if I REALLY try to unearth the reasons as to why "nigger" is more offensive than "faggot", it'll be a perfect opportunity for someone to scream Oppression Olympics (for the billionth time).

It's a rather genius strategy.

Are you hard of reading? I'm not talking about society.

I asked you what purpose is served by pointing out that nigger is "more" offensive than faggot?

For what REASON do you point this difference out?

 

[Treefingers]

This is as broad and unsupported a statement as this thread has ever had. Prove this.

I can't prove it, I can speak from personal experience that the word faggot was used commonly among people I know/used to know just a few years ago and the connotation was that someone was being annoying. That's it. They didn't hate gay people.

Anyway I'm just gonna sidestep out of this thread.

 

[ZephyrFate]

I can't prove it, I can speak from personal experience that the word faggot was used commonly among people I know/used to know just a few years ago and the connotation was that someone was being annoying. That's it. They didn't hate gay people.

These connotations ARE tied to its original basis as a homosexual slur. Just because they 'didn't intend it' doesn't mean that the connection effeminate features or homosexual identity suddenly disappear.

Ask anyone in anytown, USA and I'm sure they'll tell you that faggot refers to homosexual. There's no other why people have such an aversion or reaction to the word. It has not changed, or evolved.

And it doesn't make it okay to say.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

I know urbandictionary.com is hardly a reliable source especially in regards to this, but it's interesting that the top entry for 'faggot' is :

faggot 9526 up, 2819 down
buy faggot mugs, tshirts and magnets
In these times not really used if somebody is really a homosexual mostly used insteap of calling somebody stupid or a loser.

*orders mug*

Is it an American-only thing? Here in Aus if someone is called a faggot it's still pretty offensive and certainly more alluding to the homosexual angle.

None of this changes the roots of the word and the fact that it shouldn't be used, however.

 

[EricHasNoPull]

Anyway I'm just gonna sidestep out of this thread.

Hey If this thread reaches 70 pages, rest assure I would be again re-quoting myself, just so you know.

 

[Treefingers]

These connotations ARE tied to its original basis as a homosexual slur. Just because they 'didn't intend it' doesn't mean that the connection effeminate features or homosexual identity suddenly disappear.

Ask anyone in anytown, USA and I'm sure they'll tell you that faggot refers to homosexual. There's no other why people have such an aversion or reaction to the word. It has not changed, or evolved.

And it doesn't make it okay to say.

I'm not saying people should go around saying it, my only point is that it can be and has been used by people who do not have anything against the LGBT community - and so Amibguous Cad claiming that anyone that says it secretly hates gay people is wrong.

 

[ZephyrFate]

The point would then be brought up if I used a racial slur out of its original context, does that mean I'm not offending that race?

This is the point people try to make and they don't realize that it goes both ways. If I take faggot and I apply it to something stupid I'm still offending gay people because its original context is now married to an additional definition -- stupid.

I'm now not only denigrating homosexuals, I'm stating they have a lack of intelligence as well.

 

[Treefingers]

The point would then be brought up if I used a racial slur out of its original context, does that mean I'm not offending that race?

This is the point people try to make and they don't realize that it goes both ways. If I take faggot and I apply it to something stupid I'm still offending gay people because its original context is now married to an additional definition -- stupid.

I'm now not only denigrating homosexuals, I'm stating they have a lack of intelligence as well.

You're not consciously trying to offend that race, no.

Once again I'm not saying the word isn't offensive, I'm saying that it's wrong to call someone a homophobe over it.

 

[Kinitari]

I would agree that someone who uses the word 'faggot' isn't necessarily homophobic, but I would also add that by using the language, they do unnecessary harm.

If I am honest though, while I can't prove it, I'd say most people who use 'faggot' as an insult would just as easily say that the subtext of the insult is "This person is an effeminate homosexual, and that is a terrible, awful thing to be". Let's not kid ourselves and say that the majority of adults who throw around the word faggot don't know it is an offensive slur, those few who 'don't mean anything by it' should know better.

 

[btkadams]

I would agree that someone who uses the word 'faggot' isn't necessarily homophobic, but I would also add that by using the language, they do unnecessary harm.

If I am honest though, while I can't prove it, I'd say most people who use 'faggot' as an insult would just as easily say that the subtext of the insult is "This person is an effeminate homosexual, and that is a terrible, awful thing to be". Let's not kid ourselves and say that the majority of adults who throw around the word faggot don't know it is an offensive slur, those few who 'don't mean anything by it' should know better.

this is my opinion as well.

 

[Gaborn]

I can't prove it, I can speak from personal experience that the word faggot was used commonly among people I know/used to know just a few years ago and the connotation was that someone was being annoying. That's it. They didn't hate gay people.

Anyway I'm just gonna sidestep out of this thread.

This is like someone arguing that "smear the queer" had NOTHING to do with gay people.

 

[Treefingers]

This is like someone arguing that "smear the queer" had NOTHING to do with gay people.

To the kids playing it, no it doesn't.

Anyway I'm out.

 

[krypt0nian]

This is like someone arguing that "smear the queer" had NOTHING to do with gay people.

I've seen people make that very assertion here on GAF. Not sure why I was surprised after this shithole of a thread. Smh

 

[ZephyrFate]

To the kids playing it, no it doesn't.

Anyway I'm out.

An ex-friend of mine regrets playing smear the queer as a kid because as he grew up he realized how fucking terrible of a game it was.

 

[etiolate]

I would agree that someone who uses the word 'faggot' isn't necessarily homophobic, but I would also add that by using the language, they do unnecessary harm.

If I am honest though, while I can't prove it, I'd say most people who use 'faggot' as an insult would just as easily say that the subtext of the insult is "This person is an effeminate homosexual, and that is a terrible, awful thing to be". Let's not kid ourselves and say that the majority of adults who throw around the word faggot don't know it is an offensive slur, those few who 'don't mean anything by it' should know better.

Of course they mean something by it, but there is a chance they don't mean "stupid girly homo" by it and instead just "stupid vibe killer".


Which gets me back to why are certain people so hard set to keep the word as a slur against homosexuals? Of course, the history of the word should be known and understood, but nobody uses faggot to mean firewood even if thats the root of the word, and since many different types of people were burned at the stake, the word has always had a randomly selective nature (as would any language or slur). Now the new meaning could ultimately have as much to do with homosexuality as the current popular meaning has to do with firewood, but people are fighting for it to have that previous meaning. Why must language be forever shackled by one particular section of history?

Of course some words are more of a lightning rod than others, but it would be welcome by me if words like nigger and faggot lost their power because that power only helps hateful people. It would be nice if they could fall the way of other slurs like spade, which while once commonly known to be snide for black, has begun losing that connection with new generations that have never heard the word used in that manner. By addressing the hate of the word and also changing the use of the word, slurs can come and go. In this manner, it would be nice if context mattered again, and people stopped being oppressed by words that as users of language they can have power over. I don't think the history should be erased, but that fighting for words to remain bigoted and only bigoted is outright silly and does not serve any cause except immature victimhood.

 

[PhoenixDark]

When are the Oppression Olympics medal ceremonies?

I'd imagine every group gets to put on some musical where they make their case. Clearly black people would win because Jennifer Hudson is on our side, while you guys have chicks who can't sing *zinng*


On a serious note bros, how about we just say "faggot and nigger are hateful words that shouldn't be said" and leave it at that, jesus.

 

[krypt0nian]

I'd imagine every group gets to put on some musical where they make their case. Clearly black people would win because Jennifer Hudson is on our side, while you guys have chicks who can't sing *zinng*

I claim Adele as she's a gay icon. Fight!

 

[btkadams]

This is like someone arguing that "smear the queer" had NOTHING to do with gay people.

not to take this thread off-topic completely, but what is smear the queer? i've never heard of that.

 

[Kinitari]

Of course they mean something by it, but there is a chance they don't mean "stupid girly homo" by it and instead just "stupid vibe killer".


Which gets me back to why are certain people so hard set to keep the word as a slur against homosexuals? Of course, the history of the word should be known and understood, but nobody uses faggot to mean firewood even if thats the root of the word, and since many different types of people were burned at the stake, the word has always had a randomly selective nature (as would any language or slur). Now the new meaning could ultimately have as much to do with homosexuality as the current popular meaning has to do with firewood, but people are fighting for it to have that previous meaning. Why must language be forever shackled by one particular section of history?

Of course some words are more of a lightning rod than others, but it would be welcome by me if words like nigger and faggot lost their power because that power only helps hateful people. It would be nice if they could fall the way of other slurs like spade, which while once commonly known to be snide for black, has begun losing that connection with new generations that have never heard the word used in that manner. By addressing the hate of the word and also changing the use of the word, slurs can come and go. In this manner, it would be nice if context mattered again, and people stopped being oppressed by words that as users of language they can have power over. I don't think the history should be erased, but that fighting for words to remain bigoted and only bigoted is outright silly and does not serve any cause except immature victimhood.

If you are arguing that by people using the word 'faggot' as a general insult, it will somehow remove it's use as a slur, and introduce a society in which the word is simply a general insult - then you need to make some sort of convincing argument.

As long as it's 'okay' to call someone a faggot as an insult, people are not going to have any qualms using it as a slur. As long as they are both used side by side, the effect remains the same.

There is absolutely no reason, other than pandering to immaturity, to step back and accept the usage of faggot as the way it is, while just crossing fingers and hoping for the best. Why not remove the word from more peoples vocabulary, why would any reasonable person continue to use it as an insult after understanding the impact it has?

 

[ZephyrFate]

not to take this thread off-topic completely, but what is smear the queer? i've never heard of that.

A game of tag where one person is the 'queer' and is then subsequently tackled by anyone and everyone until he gives up the object, generally a football but can be other stuff.

 

[btkadams]

Football game where one person is the 'queer' and is then subsequently tackled by anyone and everyone.

was this popular growing up in the states??

 

[ZephyrFate]

was this popular growing up in the states??

Very. About as popular as the definition of faggot applying to gay people. !

It's still popular, too.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I claim Adele as she's a gay icon. Fight!

Well if you're going to play unfair, I'll build a time machine and bring 1993 Whitney Houston back! booya

 

[Gaborn]

To the kids playing it, no it doesn't.

Anyway I'm out.

Sure, which is why to be honest I'm more worried about the parents and teachers that don't educate their kids on why this shit is wrong. HOWEVER, that is not saying we should excuse adults (such as Kobe) who absolutely should know better than that. If racists can't blame their parents because they grew up being taught that racial slurs were acceptable I don't see why superstar athletes can't be held to a similar standard. And no, I'm not saying Kobe is homophobic. His LANGUAGE was though.

 

[etiolate]

I always thought queer was a shortening of quarterback for a long time, as did most of my schoolmates. Someone older eventually told us where queer came from.

 

[Gvaz]

I meant a player yelling at a ref for a bad call calling him names then the ref yells back with names until the ref tells the player "Get the fuck out"

 

[numble]

I meant a player yelling at a ref for a bad call calling him names then the ref yells back with names until the ref tells the player "Get the fuck out"

When have you seen a ref say that? The reason that there is so much uproar for the "little bitch" comment is because refs are not supposed to do that.

“Disrespectful, that’s how it was,” he said. “I think it was very disrespectful…obviously the game wasn’t going the way we wanted it to go. I just think something like that was uncalled for.”

Though most of the Suns players refused to directly comment on what was said between the ref and the rookie, Marcin Gortat had this to say:

“It was interesting. I’m just telling you it was interesting… for the four years in my career, I’ve never seen something like that.” Then Josh Childress chimed in from the background for the Polish Hammer to shut his big yapper.

I've already stated multiple times why I believe it is worse when a person hired to be a neutral arbitrator displays unwarranted bias against you. The ref can punish you for insulting him, you have very little power to punish a ref for insulting you.

 

[MIMIC]

No, please indulge us. I'm dying to hear your explanation.

In a nutshell....

The century-long institution of American slavery; the millions killed during the slave trade; the subsequent legal segregation; the fact that according to the "three-fifths compromise" that, legally, black people were weren't even considered people; and the fact that that one word embodies the racism and bigotry that lead to it all.

In a nutshell of course.

American society will forever be profoundly embarrassed by its revolting, abominable past, which is why any fondness or association with the events is considered supremely taboo. I made the analogy of why the Nazi salute is ILLEGAL in Germany, but for some reason, Satyamdas didn't get it.

The black atrocities committed in America : Nazism in Germany
"Nigger" as most offensive word : Nazi salute is illegal

USA/Germany: We really, really fucked up. Don't remind us.

Are you hard of reading? I'm not talking about society.

I asked you what purpose is served by pointing out that nigger is "more" offensive than faggot?

For what REASON do you point this difference out?

Purpose served for pointing it out: to give some understanding as to why people were defending its usage (the way Kobe used it). If the words are equally offensive, then obviously a bunch of people wouldn't be defending it and people wouldn't have to explain WHY it's offensive.

If the thread title was "Dirk Nowitzki slinging racial slur during nationally televised NBA game," would there really be a 55-page debate about his usage? No.

 

[ZephyrFate]

The only reason people are even defending the use of the word faggot is because people such as yourself for some reason think it doesn't mean homosexual anymore

if it didn't, why the fuck would anyone have cared?

 

[MIMIC]

The only reason people are even defending the use of the word faggot is because people such as yourself for some reason think it doesn't mean homosexual anymore

if it didn't, why the fuck would anyone have cared?

We've been through this.

Double-meaning, evolution of language, blah blah.....you refuse to accept it, and here we are.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Kobe really shouldn't assume that the ref owns a harley....

I'm gay and I could care less. Hell, I often use the term to describe people, or more specifically a group of people, that push their overly flamboyant personalities on others and tarnish the image of gays everywhere.

You have every right to wear short shorts and rainbow cut off tee... but you also have every right to know you're going to be mocked for it, so don't bitch and complain. Just like you know you're going to be instulted for doing something stupid that would take two seconds of thought to realize it'd be a dumb idea.

Same goes for the term nigger imo, if you want to act in accordance with what that sterotype implies, then don't be offended when that's what you're called. That said, it'd have been fucking hilarious if that's what kobe called the ref.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

We've been through this.

Double-meaning, evolution of language, blah blah.....you refuse to accept it, and here we are.

I guess it's just a coincidence then that a homophobic slur "evolved" into a general insult, and that there's no other implication to be found behind that particular coincidence. I guess we're just being a bunch of silly faggots to read so much into it.

note: I mean faggot as "annoying person" in this context.

Some claims to "evolution of meaning" hold more water than others. Say when faggot meant bundle of sticks, applying that to homosexuals is a meaning quite divorced from the old one. The problem here is that that isn't the case. Both are derogatory, this new "evolved" meaning is a little too easy to read as a direct consequence of the old bigoted meaning, and no one arguing your position has addressed this point at all. That doesn't mean the intent behind the word is one of bigotry, but the fact that that word was adopted as a general insult at all is certainly implied bigotry.

 

[ZephyrFate]

We've been through this.

Double-meaning, evolution of language, blah blah.....you refuse to accept it, and here we are.

Because in your dream the dream world faggot no longer has the connotations that it does. A small percentage of people may use it differently, but it is by and large and definitely far more attributed as a slur towards effeminacy in men or homosexuality.

You refuse to accept that, and yet gay teens around the country are being called faggot every day for who they are.

But let's delegitimize their plight by saying that faggot simply doesn't mean what it used to. Fucking sickening.

The fact that faggot has grown other meanings are purely derived from their initial slurs towards homosexuals. When you say 'faggot' means 'dickhead, annoying person, stupid, asshole' whatever... it's purely because people probably thought homosexuals were each and every one of those things. The root meaning still exists, and is still the most prevalent and damaging.

 

[Dead Man]

We've been through this.

Double-meaning, evolution of language, blah blah.....you refuse to accept it, and here we are.

I think it is about the direction of evolution, too. It is not being used a general insult completely separated from meaning gay, it is because of that connotation that it is used as a general insult. If, say, 5% of people started using 'kike' to mean... arsehole, it would not be accepted, really. If the word faggot had PREVIOUSLY been used as general insult before gaining the connotation of gay, the evolution of language argument could take place. The only way for a slur to no longer retain that meaning is if the vast majority of people when they use it do not mean anything related to that. I cannot think of a single word that has STOPPED being a slur. Again, if anyone has some examples, please present them so I can get the story right!

 

[MIMIC]

I guess it's just a coincidence then that a homophobic slur "evolved" into a general insult, and that there's no other implication to be found behind that particular coincidence. I guess we're just being a bunch of silly faggots to read so much into it.

note: I mean faggot as "annoying person" in this context.

Some claims to "evolution of meaning" hold more water than others. Say when faggot meant bundle of sticks, applying that to homosexuals is a meaning quite divorced from the old one. The problem here is that that isn't the case. Both are derogatory, this new "evolved" meaning is a little too easy to read as a direct consequence of the old bigoted meaning, and no one arguing your position has addressed this point at all. That doesn't mean the intent behind the word is one of bigotry, but the fact that that word was adopted as a general insult at all is certainly implied bigotry.

The same could be said for lame, dumb, spaz, freak, etc. They all used to have completely different meanings, but because of society's views of its "unnaturalness", they evolved to mean something negative.

And similarly, like the word "rape"....which has come to take on a new meaning these days. I could even say the same thing about kill/death/murder. They all have taken on new meanings, having been turned into "softballed" versions of their original definitions.

Unfortunately, not everyone is going to like it but it just seems like language changes like that.

 

[Justin Timberlake]

This thread.

Is still going.

My god.

 

[ZephyrFate]

The same could be said for lame, dumb, spaz, freak, etc. They all used to have completely different meanings, but because of society's views of its "unnaturalness", they evolved to mean something negative.

And similarly, like the word "rape"....which has come to take on a new meaning these days. I could even say the same thing about kill/death/murder. They all have taken on new meanings, having been turned into "softballed" versions of their original definitions.

Unfortunately, not everyone is going to like it but it just seems like language changes like that.

I'm pretty sure none of those have ever been slurs. Do you... even know what a slur means?

 

[Ollie Pooch]

And similarly, like the word "rape"....which has come to take on a new meaning these days. I could even say the same thing about kill/death/murder. They all have taken on new meanings, having been turned into "softballed" versions of their original definitions.

Whaaat?

Sorry, I didn't get this bit at all.

 

[Snuggles]

Whaaat?

Sorry, I didn't get this bit at all.

I think he's just referring to the fact that even a word like "rape" is used in an unconventional manner these days. The most obvious example being (sigh) gamers, who will often use the term "rape" to describe how much better they did than the other team.

"we totally raped you bros last round"

Now obviously they aren't admitting to a sex crime, they're just using 'rape' as a slang word for beating someone just as some fools use 'faggot' for marginalizing someone.