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[numble]

So, because European football leagues fine players for swearing (I think both were at officials?), and one person posted that as an example of players being fined for things they may not be in the NBA, all people complaining about this want and expect there to be no swearing in sport? Get the fuck out of here.

I said some people. Some people does not mean all people. Perhaps I should've said, "at least one person." I guess I'll change it to that. At least one person seems to imply that there shouldn't be any foul language at all.

 

[AZ Greg]

I can spend my days fighting against a tide that will never ebb, or I can get out of the water completely and save myself a ton of trouble. Those who fight the tide do so with great intentions and I'd never look down on them, but at the same time I can't help but feel like they are treading water and inadvertently feed the monster they wish to slay.

 

[Dead Man]

I said some people. Some people does not mean all people. Perhaps I should've said, "at least one person." I guess I'll change it to that. At least one person seems to imply that there shouldn't be any foul language at all.

Okay. How does that contradict my snide comment that not all people who are objecting this outburst expect no swearing in sport? You fond one person. Great. Now go find all the rest. You are just trolling for shit now.

So, why aren't you guys outraged at Bernard Hopkins?

Because I have no idea who he is?

 

[numble]

Okay. How does that contradict my snide comment that not all people who are objecting this outburst expect no swearing in sport? You fond one person. Great. Now go find all the rest. You are just trolling for shit now.

I'm giving you some context on why MIMIC might have made his initial remark. He never claimed that everyone was upset at foul language. So if you're trying to reply to him by saying that not all people are objecting to swearing in sport, that also does not contradict what he's saying.

So, why aren't you guys outraged at Bernard Hopkins?

I don't know why people haven't talked about Michael Jordan, Kevin Garnett, or Kenyon Martin when those examples are brought up either. I don't know why there is a need to single Kobe out instead of getting at every occurrence. Really, KG is like the best example of someone that should be singled out--he mocks white players and would get into fights with white teammates when he was at Minnesota. He's been caught on camera and microphone saying slurs and obscenities. He's made more money than Kobe over the years, too. I guess Gaborn addressed it, by saying it's okay when you say slurs to the other team, but not the ref, but I don't think that should make a difference.

 

[Dead Man]

I'm giving you some context on why MIMIC might have made his initial remark. He never claimed that everyone was upset at foul language. So if you're trying to reply to him by saying that not all people are objecting to swearing in sport, that also does not contradict what he's saying.


I don't know why people haven't talked about Michael Jordan, Kevin Garnett, or Kenyon Martin when those examples are brought up either. I don't know why there is a need to single Kobe out instead of getting at every occurrence. Really, KG is like the best example of someone that should be singled out--he mocks white players and would get into fights with white teammates when he was at Minnesota. He's been caught on camera and microphone saying slurs and obscenities. He's made more money than Kobe over the years, too. I guess Gaborn addressed it, by saying it's okay when you say slurs to the other team, but not the ref, but I don't think that should make a difference.

So now you are talking about MIMIC's post? Make up your mind.

Anyway, as for KG (Kevin Garnett?), from your description, he is racist, and most of the discussion in this thread has been about faggots, not crackers.

 

[MIMIC]

I live in Los Angeles, Ca.

In connection with my work and due to having younger relatives I often am around high school and middle school kids and yes, I hear non black kids saying niggER quite often. I also hear it from adult coworkers, friends of friends, random strangers, being shouted through my speakers on Xbox Live, and in various other places by many various races of people. You don't have to live in backwater Arkansas to hear the word being thrown around.

Excluding Xbox Live, I'm not sure how many could relate to your experience of how "nigger" is thrown around as often and freely as you suggest. I also work in education and never hear the -er version. I hear it used ironically, but never in its racist, disparaging form (i.e. "those niggers need to stay with their own kind"). But if people are still that openly racist over there then wow.

But my point was that "nigger" IS considered the most offensive word in the English language, and by a pretty considerable margin. It's defined 99% of the time as the most offensive word and most would agree.

 

[numble]

So now you are talking about MIMIC's post? Make up your mind.

Anyway, as for KG (Kevin Garnett?), from your description, he is racist, and most of the discussion in this thread has been about faggots, not crackers.

People have posted the video of him (Kevin Garnett) saying Fucking Faggots. If you go to a game with Boston playing, you can hear him saying it a lot, if you're close enough.

 

[Dead Man]

People have posted the video of him (Kevin Garnett) saying Fucking Faggots. If you go to a game with Boston playing, you can hear him saying it a lot, if you're close enough.

So then he needs to be fined when he says it and stop saying it too. What's the controversy?

Edit: For the record, I do agree with Gaborns position that comments to the ref should be more closely monitored than comments to the other team. In my opinion, any swearing at the ref should be banned, the officials need to have the outward respect of the players, even if they don't feel it.

 

[JLG-]

Because I have no idea who he is?

A boxing legend and a minority partner with Golden Boy Promotions.

Recently in a press conference he called his opponent a "Fucking Faggot" several times.

Here's the vid. (Watch between :30 and :50)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6cFqA3Pa9M

 

[numble]

So then he needs to be fined when he says it and stop saying it too. What's the controversy?

What about the kids that see him as role model? And how he should give up his shoe endorsements or take lesser salary?

It should be a bigger issue because KG belting out slurs and profanity is actually considered part of the way he plays. They even did a slow motion replay of him yelling out "fucking faggots" as they went to a commercial.

 

[Dark Octave]

Excluding Xbox Live, I'm not sure how many could relate to your experience of how "nigger" is thrown around as often and freely as you suggest. I also work in education and never hear the -er version. I hear it used ironically, but never in its racist, disparaging form (i.e. "those niggers need to stay with their own kind"). But if people are still that openly racist over there then wow.

But my point was that "nigger" IS considered the most offensive word in the English language, and by a pretty considerable margin. It's defined 99% of the time as the most offensive word and most would agree.

I would agree.

 

[Satyamdas]

Derp.

So you ignore Kinitari's post which basically ripped your weak argument to shreds, and instead come back to post that stupid picture? You might want to sit down and shut up the next time grown folks are talking.

Hey look, I can post pics too!

 

[Dead Man]

What about the kids that see him as role model? And how he should give up his shoe endorsements or take lesser salary?

It should be a bigger issue because KG belting out slurs and profanity is actually considered part of the way he plays. They even did a slow motion replay of him yelling out "fucking faggots" as they went to a commercial.

That is not acceptable behaviour, no, and should be penalised as such. I don't understand why you are trying to make like people have a double standard here just because they are not familiar with all the incident of slurs being used.

If Kevin Garnett is unhappy with being a role model, then yes, he should retreat from that.

A boxing legend and a minority partner with Golden Boy Promotions.

Recently in a press conference he called his opponent a "Fucking Faggot" several times.

Here's the vid. (Watch between :30 and :50)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6cFqA3Pa9M

Also not acceptable.

What is the difficulty you guys are having? Do you think people have a double standard since they don't call out other incidents they don't know about?

 

[Satyamdas]

Excluding Xbox Live, I'm not sure how many could relate to your experience of how "nigger" is thrown around as often and freely as you suggest. I also work in education and never hear the -er version. I hear it used ironically, but never in its racist, disparaging form (i.e. "those niggers need to stay with their own kind"). But if people are still that openly racist over there then wow.

But my point was that "nigger" IS considered the most offensive word in the English language, and by a pretty considerable margin. It's defined 99% of the time as the most offensive word and most would agree.

And my point was that I don't need you telling me that I don't know what I'm hearing. I don't care if the word is being used ironically, deliberately, flippantly, or in whatever manner the speaker intends it. The word is offensive to most people, full stop.

You can tell a gay person that he should only feel 64% as offended at being called a faggot as compared to a black person who is called a nigger, but I think the whole idea of assigning an "amount" of offensiveness to a word like that is an exercise in stupidity and futility.

 

[AZ Greg]

So you ignore Kinitari's post which basically ripped your weak argument to shreds, and instead come back to post that stupid picture? You might want to sit down and shut up the next time grown folks are talking.

I was going to respond to him, but then I decided I don't want to spend my days fighting against a tide that will never ebb. So I got out of the water completely to save myself a ton of trouble.

 

[numble]

That is not acceptable behaviour, no, and should be penalised as such. I don't understand why you are trying to make like people have a double standard here just because they are not familiar with all the incident of slurs being used.

If Kevin Garnett is unhappy with being a role model, then yes, he should retreat from that.


Also not acceptable.

What is the difficulty you guys are having? Do you think people have a double standard since they don't call out other incidents they don't know about?

Because people have still ragged on Kobe for the last few pages saying he should be punished more, he wasn't fined enough, he wasn't suspended because of the playoffs, he should give up his shoe endorsements, fretting about his influence on kids, and that he hasn't done enough in response.

Isn't the greater injustice that others similarly situated have gone unpunished? Even after the information about Kevin Garnett has been posted multiple times, there have been more posts about Kobe not getting punished enough, etc. then there have been about how the league has not done a single thing to discourage Kevin Garnett's antics.

 

[Puddles]

The word faggot already is as taboo as nigger.

Not even close.

People dislike hearing it

This is generally true, but in my experience most people aren't going to really give a shit about it in ordinary conversation.

and it causes just as much discomfort and awkwardness as hearing someone say nigger in public. But just like nigger is the ultimate taboo word and is still being said every day, so too will faggot be said no matter how taboo the word becomes.

Not "just as much." Not even by half. Maybe in certain social circles this would be true, but in most places it isn't. Someone who tosses "nigger" around is going to be ostracized in short order. Someone who drops the occasional "fag" bomb around generally doesn't encounter problems even in 2011, and as recently as 2005 or so people wouldn't bat an eye.

Now, do I like the use of the word? Hell no. I can't even remember the last time I dropped a "faggot" in a conversation. I must have been in high school. Since then I've made a lot of gay friends and spent a year as the musical director for a theater group that was largely gay and did several plays that explored gay issues. I would never use that word at this point in my life.

The difference is that pretty much only racists use "nigger." A lot of people use "faggot" just out of habit. This is changing, and that's a good thing, but I can't see it being on the same level as the top-tier racial slurs when it comes to ordinary conversation anytime soon.

Now clearly I don't agree with Kobe Bryant saying it, but I also think that one public apology should have been enough. He shouldn't have to go on a freaking morning show and make three separate public apologies and partner up with GLAAD over one use of the word in the heat of the game.

Then again, it is a pretty good thing that he recognizes how offensive the word can be.

 

[Satyamdas]

I was going to respond to him, but then I decided I don't want to spend my days fighting against a tide that will never ebb. So I got out of the water completely to save myself a ton of trouble.

So basically you realized that you are not only barking up the wrong tree, but you need to speak with an arborist to find out exactly what a tree is.

 

[AZ Greg]

So basically you realized that you are not only barking up the wrong tree, but you need to speak with an arborist to find out exactly what a tree is.

 

[Dead Man]

Because people have still ragged on Kobe for the last few pages saying he should be punished more, he wasn't fined enough, he wasn't suspended because of the playoffs, he should give up his shoe endorsements, fretting about his influence on kids, and that he hasn't done enough in response.

Isn't the greater injustice that others similarly situated have gone unpunished? Even after the information about Kevin Garnett has been posted multiple times, there have been more posts about Kobe not getting punished enough, etc. then there have been about how the league has not done a single thing to discourage Kevin Garnett's antics.

Let it go. Those are not acceptable, but go bitch to the media for not covering them, not to me because other people have not been made aware of them.

Not even close.



This is generally true, but in my experience most people aren't going to really give a shit about it in ordinary conversation.



Not "just as much." Not even by half. Maybe in certain social circles this would be true, but in most places it isn't. Someone who tosses "nigger" around is going to be ostracized in short order. Someone who drops the occasional "fag" bomb around generally doesn't encounter problems even in 2011, and as recently as 2005 or so people wouldn't bat an eye.

Now, do I like the use of the word? Hell no. I can't even remember the last time I dropped a "faggot" in a conversation. I must have been in high school. Since then I've made a lot of gay friends and spent a year as the musical director for a theater group that was largely gay and did several plays that explored gay issues. I would never use that word at this point in my life.

The difference is that pretty much only racists use "nigger." A lot of people use "faggot" just out of habit. This is changing, and that's a good thing, but I can't see it being on the same level as the top-tier racial slurs when it comes to ordinary conversation anytime soon.

Now clearly I don't agree with Kobe Bryant saying it, but I also think that one public apology should have been enough. He shouldn't have to go on a freaking morning show and make three separate public apologies and partner up with GLAAD over one use of the word in the heat of the game.

Then again, it is a pretty good thing that he recognizes how offensive the word can be.

Can you see though, how the fact it is not seen as so offensive by many people, when it is incredibly offensive for the people effected by it (gay people) is pretty offensive in itself?

 

[Puddles]

Can you see though, how the fact it is not seen as so offensive by many people, when it is incredibly offensive for the people effected by it (gay people) is pretty offensive in itself?

Yes. And I think that it's good that people are realizing how offensive can be. I think the fact that Kobe did feel compelled to do so much in response to his use of the word is evidence of this.

The ONLY argument I'm making is that we're still a generation that grew up with that word just being dropped casually. I'd argue that it wasn't until the 2000's that this really started to change. And because of this, sometimes it just slips out of some people, especially ultra-competitors, even if they have absolutely nothing against the LGBT community.

I don't think this excuses people like Kobe using the word, but it does help explain it, if that makes sense.

Hopefully he'll never use the word in the future and we can all move on.

 

[Dead Man]

Yes. And I think that it's good that people are realizing how offensive can be. I think the fact that Kobe did feel compelled to do so much in response to his use of the word is evidence of this.

The ONLY argument I'm making is that we're still a generation that grew up with that word just being dropped casually. I'd argue that it wasn't until the 2000's that this really started to change. And because of this, sometimes it just slips out of some people, especially ultra-competitors, even if they have absolutely nothing against the LGBT community.

I don't think this excuses people like Kobe using the word, but it does help explain it, if that makes sense.

Hopefully he'll never use the word in the future and we can all move on.

Sounds good to me.

 

[numble]

Let it go. Those are not acceptable, but go bitch to the media for not covering them, not to me because other people have not been made aware of them.

I'm talking about GAF. How can what KG does just be met with a "not acceptable," but Kobe's one remark be met with a 27 page thread? Those other athletes have been covered in the media plenty enough, interest groups chose not to jump on them for whatever reason. You can read ESPN articles about Michael Jordan calling people "flaming faggots," and everyone that knows the NBA knows about Kevin Garnett's antics. GAF can spend pages talking about Kobe's tenuous relationship to the Armenian genocide, but not care about multiple athletes' tenuous relationships to the Great Leap Forward (or the owner of the New Jersey Nets being connected with the Russian mafia).

 

[MIMIC]

And my point was that I don't need you telling me that I don't know what I'm hearing. I don't care if the word is being used ironically, deliberately, flippantly, or in whatever manner the speaker intends it. The word is offensive to most people, full stop.

Well if I worked at a kennel and heard the word "bitch" a lot, it would probably be a good idea for me to take context and intent into consideration. You made it sound like people are just flat out and openly racist over there, like it's 1860 in Louisiana or something. Nonetheless, I still find your description of the flagrant language over there a little hard to believe.....given its universally potent offensiveness.

That or it's just a really backwards place.

You can tell a gay person that he should only feel 64% as offended at being called a faggot as compared to a black person who is called a nigger, but I think the whole idea of assigning an "amount" of offensiveness to a word like that is an exercise in stupidity and futility.

I'm not talking individual offensiveness; I'm talking about society as a whole.

As I learned a few weeks ago, it's ILLEGAL in Germany to do the Nazi salute. But is every German going to take offense to it? Probably not.

 

[Dead Man]

I'm talking about GAF. How can what KG does just be met with a "not acceptable," but Kobe's one remark be met with a 27 page thread? Those other athletes have been covered in the media plenty enough, interest groups chose not to jump on them for whatever reason. You can read ESPN articles about Michael Jordan calling people "flaming faggots," and everyone that knows the NBA knows about Kevin Garnett's antics. GAF can spend pages talking about Kobe's tenuous relationship to the Armenian genocide, but not care about multiple athletes' tenuous relationships to the Great Leap Forward (or the owner of the New Jersey Nets being connected with the Russian mafia).

Why don't you make some threads then. And I don't think GAF really cared about anyone's sponsorship deals with Turkey, or China, or random country X, because they are not that big a deal. I don't know anything about any of them except the Kobe/Turkey thing, but most of the comments I have read have been telling the people so upset by it to calm down since it IS a very tenuous link.

Edit: If you are upset by Garnetts actions, or anyone elses, make a thread and call them out, don't sit in here and bitch that no one pays any attention to other worse people.

Edit2: I'm off to go watch people get paid to go in circles, rather than us doing it in here for free, so apologies if I don't respond to anyone right away.

 

[numble]

Why don't you make some threads then. And I don't think GAF really cared about anyone's sponsorship deals with Turkey, or China, or random country X, because they are not that big a deal. I don't know anything about any of them except the Kobe/Turkey thing, but most of the comments I have read have been telling the people so upset by it to calm down since it IS a very tenuous link.

Edit: If you are upset by Garnetts actions, or anyone elses, make a thread and call them out, don't sit in here and bitch that no one pays any attention to other worse people.

I don't think there should be multiple threads on a similar subject. Should there be separate threads for Michael Jordan, Kenyon Martin, and Bernard Hopkins as well? I don't believe in creating threads to get a point across--what's wrong with discussing it in here? I think it is more relevant to the topic than the pages of posts about whether or not blacks or homosexuals have had it worse, and they didn't need to create a new thread for that discussion.

 

[Kinitari]

numble, are you implying that GAF has a vendetta against Kobe or something? I think like... 90% of the people who are consistently posting in this thread don't even watch basketball. I know you had a long standing debate about the fine with Gaborn, but do you think Gaborn would change his position with any other basketball player? It has nothing to do with Kobe, and everything to do with the societal acceptance of a homosexual slur being used.

 

[Gvaz]

Idk, some of my gay friends say that word too, so idk.

Sometimes words are just words.

 

[numble]

numble, are you implying that GAF has a vendetta against Kobe or something? I think like... 90% of the people who are consistently posting in this thread don't even watch basketball. I know you had a long standing debate about the fine with Gaborn, but do you think Gaborn would change his position with any other basketball player? It has nothing to do with Kobe, and everything to do with the societal acceptance of a homosexual slur being used.

I think Kobe is being singled out if the actions of others similarly situated are ignored or responded to lightly, especially if there are more posts that say he hasn't been punished enough or hasn't done enough in response than reacting to the fact that others continue to say these words without the same attention put on them, and when people start throwing in arguments about how what Kobe does is more important and deserves greater punishment because of his notoriety, kids, salary, and shoe endorsements.

I also think calling for fines and suspensions that are disproportionate to the punishment schedule of the NBA requires one to consider the consequences towards other punishments that the NBA doles out.

 

[travisbickle]

Some people upset with the comments seem to imply that there shouldn't be any foul language at all:

Wait a minute, I posted two examples of British-based players getting fines for swearing, in response to someone asking about it.

 

[Satyamdas]

Not "just as much." Not even by half. Maybe in certain social circles this would be true, but in most places it isn't. Someone who tosses "nigger" around is going to be ostracized in short order. Someone who drops the occasional "fag" bomb around generally doesn't encounter problems even in 2011, and as recently as 2005 or so people wouldn't bat an eye.

Just out of curiosity, what machine or measuring device are you using to reach these numbers? Do you immediately ask the people within earshot of hearing faggot exactly how uncomfortable or offended they are when they hear it and then ask them to rate that offense in comparison to nigger? Somehow I doubt it.

The difference is that pretty much only racists use "nigger." A lot of people use "faggot" just out of habit. This is changing, and that's a good thing, but I can't see it being on the same level as the top-tier racial slurs when it comes to ordinary conversation anytime soon.

This is incorrect. People say nigger because it is taboo and offensive, not because in every case they are a racist. In my workplace there is a white guy who will tell a black coworker to "stop being such a nigger" all the fucking time, and they are close friends. This same white guy has gotten into a fight and got stitches over his eye because he jumped to defend the black dude from an attack.

It reminds me of Full Metal Jacket when Animal Mother says "All fucking niggers must fucking hang" to his fellow black soldier 8Ball. Horrible racist thing to say. Then when 8Ball gets sniped and the rest of his company wants to leave him to die, Animal Mother is the only one who says fuck that, I'm not leaving 8Ball out there and risks his own life to go rescue him. Yeah, it's just a movie, but there are a lot of people like that who say outrageous shit for shock value without necessarily holding the usual corollary beliefs. Now if the guy at my job says it one day and there is a black guy behind him who he doesn't see and who doesn't know the white guy, I am not going to expect the black guy to just say "Oh, well, he is just using it ironically. I am thus not offended". He is probably going to be pretty goddamned pissed and I wouldn't blame him.

I have gay clientele who I get along great with, but if one day I was talking with my buddies and I said "Man, that dude was acting like a fucking faggot" and they heard me, I would not expect them to just say "Well, you must use that word out of habit so it's not too offensive" or "Good thing that word is not the same as top-tier racial slurs, or I'd be offended and hurt" or "Hopefully you were just using that word ironically". No. I'd expect them to be angry/upset/saddened/offended, PERIOD. Me responding with "Well at least I didn't call him a nigger!" would probably not mean much to them or assuage their offense. It's not a goddamned contest.

Now clearly I don't agree with Kobe Bryant saying it, but I also think that one public apology should have been enough. He shouldn't have to go on a freaking morning show and make three separate public apologies and partner up with GLAAD over one use of the word in the heat of the game.

Totally agreed.

Well if I worked at a kennel and heard the word "bitch" a lot, it would probably be a good idea for me to take context and intent into consideration. You made it sound like people are just flat out and openly racist over there, like it's 1860 in Louisiana or something. Nonetheless, I still find your description of the flagrant language over there a little hard to believe.....given its universally potent offensiveness.

That or it's just a really backwards place.

No I didn't, that is your erroneous assumption. Most of the time it is used "ironically" or just because it is taboo and people like to say things they aren't "allowed" to, like the white guy at my job. I never said I heard it being used strictly in a racist way 100% of the time.

Do you think some elderly black woman who overhears a bunch of non black kids saying nigger is going to give a fuck about whether they are just being "ironic" or actually racist? Do you think when she hears black kids calling themselves nigga she thinks that's OK since they are not using the -er version? Or do you think maybe the word nigger is offensive to her regardless of intent or context?

I'm not talking individual offensiveness; I'm talking about society as a whole.

As I learned a few weeks ago, it's ILLEGAL in Germany to do the Nazi salute. But is every German going to take offense to it? Probably not.

 

[joeblackisback]

I just bought some Kobe's to play ball in. Comfortable as hell. That is all.

 

[Kinitari]

I think Kobe is being singled out if the actions of others similarly situated are ignored or responded to lightly, especially if there are more posts that say he hasn't been punished enough or hasn't done enough in response than reacting to the fact that others continue to say these words without the same attention put on them, and when people start throwing in arguments about how what Kobe does is more important and deserves greater punishment because of his notoriety, kids, salary, and shoe endorsements.

I also think calling for fines and suspensions that are disproportionate to the punishment schedule of the NBA requires one to consider the consequences towards other punishments that the NBA doles out.

Hrm. Well, I wouldn't agree that Kobe deserves more punishment because he's a more influential or anything, but I really couldn't care all that much about the extent of the punishment. I guess I'm not the person to debate that with, I am just not really sure all that many people care in this thread about the full extent of his punishment. But I haven't been paying attention to that side of the thread - so... well, godspeed.

 

[Staccat0]

People who cry about people being too "PC" either watch too much South Park or they are time travelers from the 90s.
Its really damn easy to call someone names and not drag unrelated minority groups.


As far as Kobe, I don't know man. The guy is a damn child. It's been proven to infinity. Amazing athlete, but clearly a shit head. It seems like the guy doesn't deserve anything beyond a wrist slap though. It seems weird to make an example of anyone in any case IMO.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

Yes. And I think that it's good that people are realizing how offensive can be. I think the fact that Kobe did feel compelled to do so much in response to his use of the word is evidence of this.

The ONLY argument I'm making is that we're still a generation that grew up with that word just being dropped casually. I'd argue that it wasn't until the 2000's that this really started to change. And because of this, sometimes it just slips out of some people, especially ultra-competitors, even if they have absolutely nothing against the LGBT community.

I don't think this excuses people like Kobe using the word, but it does help explain it, if that makes sense.

Hopefully he'll never use the word in the future and we can all move on.

Those who believe using a gay slur as an insult very clearly do have something against the LGBT community, inasmuch as they believe it to be something worthy of making into an insult. It isn't as if this is the only instance in which people will deny that their actions reflect bigotry when in fact they do. They don't have to be consciously using the term to denigrate people of other sexual orientations for their choice of words to nevertheless reflect their attitudes. To the extent that such manifestly homophobic attitudes are considered unproblematic and normal, it illustrates how far we have to go in the fight for acceptance, not that such attitudes are not in fact hateful.

 

[Staccat0]

Those who believe using a gay slur as an insult very clearly do have something against the LGBT community, inasmuch as they believe it to be something worthy of making into an insult. It isn't as if this is the only instance in which people will deny that their actions reflect bigotry when in fact they do.

I agree.

 

[MIMIC]

No I didn't, that is your erroneous assumption. Most of the time it is used "ironically" or just because it is taboo and people like to say things they aren't "allowed" to, like the white guy at my job. I never said I heard it being used strictly in a racist way 100% of the time.

Do you think some elderly black woman who overhears a bunch of non black kids saying nigger is going to give a fuck about whether they are just being "ironic" or actually racist? Do you think when she hears black kids calling themselves nigga she thinks that's OK since they are not using the -er version? Or do you think maybe the word nigger is offensive to her regardless of intent or context?

Not only the elderly woman, but most people in America would be like @_@ at what you described (here and in your previous posts)

Some actions and words are more offensive than others. Period. You can't tell me that you can't understand the concept of "asshole" being more offensive than "jerk". Yes, the person called the jerk and the person called the asshole might be equally offended.....but which word does society view as more inappropriate?

We're talking SOCIETY, not individuals.

 

[Satyamdas]

Not only the elderly woman, but most people in America would be like @_@ at what you described (here and in your previous posts)

Most people also are like @_@ when they hear black kids call themselves niggas, no matter how often they've heard it. Which renders your caveat about intent and context pretty much moot, does it not? No matter the intent or context, when most people hear that word, they are displeased. Period. And most people also find the word faggot abhorrent.

Perhaps you'd like to rate the offensiveness of the word faggot in comparison to nigger where nigger is 100 on the offensive scale? Where exactly does faggot fall on that same scale?

Some actions and words are more offensive than others. Period. You can't tell me that you can't understand the concept of "asshole" being more offensive than "jerk". Yes, the person called the jerk and the person called the asshole might be equally offended.....but which word does society view as more inappropriate?

We're talking SOCIETY, not individuals.

SOCIETY is not a single consciousness which is either offended by something or not. A thing is offensive on the individual level. Just like there are some black people who are offended by rap music and there are some who are not. Trying to pin a belief or value system on a group as large and diverse as SOCIETY is not only disingenuous it is folly.

What you're really saying is that SOCIETY views homosexuals as lesser than blacks, or at least that the words used to denigrate them are less offensive to our sensibilities. You're probably right, actually. To what degree? Only a liar and a fool would pretend to know.

 

[Dead Man]

I don't think there should be multiple threads on a similar subject. Should there be separate threads for Michael Jordan, Kenyon Martin, and Bernard Hopkins as well? I don't believe in creating threads to get a point across--what's wrong with discussing it in here? I think it is more relevant to the topic than the pages of posts about whether or not blacks or homosexuals have had it worse, and they didn't need to create a new thread for that discussion.

I don't think the lack of discussion of other incidents is due to a double standard, it is just that the discussion has moved on for the main part from Kobe to a wider discussion of social issues involved, except for a couple posters. Maybe in the US there is more pressure on him, I don't know, I'm not there. But I can safely say that I don't hold him to higher standard, I barely know anything about the guy. GAF as a whole probably doesn't, he is just more visible at the moment do to more media coverage. As I said, I think your issue may be with the media rather than GAF.

I know I have said all I care to about him. Any further discussion I have will hopefully be about larger issues.

 

[Treefingers]

Those who believe using a gay slur as an insult very clearly do have something against the LGBT community, inasmuch as they believe it to be something worthy of making into an insult. It isn't as if this is the only instance in which people will deny that their actions reflect bigotry when in fact they do. They don't have to be consciously using the term to denigrate people of other sexual orientations for their choice of words to nevertheless reflect their attitudes. To the extent that such manifestly homophobic attitudes are considered unproblematic and normal, it illustrates how far we have to go in the fight for acceptance, not that such attitudes are not in fact hateful.

I completely disagree with this, someone does NOT "very clearly" have something against the LGBT community just because he calls someone a faggot. How can you extrapolate that Kobe Bryant doesn't like gay people just from him losing control and saying faggot (a word that was widely used by people without any homophobic connotation until relatively recently)?

IMO a lot of posters here are too quick to judge people as homophobes.

 

[RedStep]

Since the video is not on youtube, I'll just tell you. Puritans used to burn witches. They would also burn homosexuals but considered them to be so disgraceful that they weren't even worth the logs of wood needed for a fire. So, instead, they used kindling and "a bunch of sticks" to make the fire to burn the homosexuals.

Yeah, no. There is nothing to actually indicate that being true. The below post is from Wikipedia, but if you research the etymology using other sources, all the ones I found said the same thing. The word sucks, but let's not try to put an even more sinister spin on the whole thing.

Etymology

The word meaning "bundle of sticks" is ultimately derived, via Old French, Italian and Vulgar Latin, from Latin fascis (also the origin of the word fascism). The origins of the word as an offensive epithet for homosexuals are, however, rather obscure, although the word has been used in English since the late 16th century as an abusive term for women, particularly old women, and reference to homosexuality may derive from this, female terms being often used with reference to homosexual or effeminate men (cf. nancy, sissy, queen).

Unsubstantiated associations

It is sometimes claimed that the modern slang meaning developed from the standard meaning of "faggot" as "bundle of sticks for burning," presumably with reference to burning at the stake. This is, however, unlikely to be the case, and there is no tradition of burning at the stake being used as a punishment for homosexuality in Britain, although supposed witches and heretics were burnt to death in other parts of Europe, and were often accused of deviant sexual behaviour.

Edit: Beaten, but I'll let it stand in case anyone thinks the original explanation is true.

 

[MIMIC]

Most people also are like @_@ when they hear black kids call themselves niggas, no matter how often they've heard it. Which renders your caveat about intent and context pretty much moot, does it not? No matter the intent or context, when most people hear that word, they are displeased. Period. And most people also find the word faggot abhorrent.

Perhaps you'd like to rate the offensiveness of the word faggot in comparison to nigger where nigger is 100 on the offensive scale? Where exactly does faggot fall on that same scale?

This is pointless arguing the use of "nigger" vs. "nigga" with you since you've already described a pretty much unfathomable "real life" scenario where everyone uses the word n-i-g-g-e-r as much as the word "the".

I can't relate to that and I'm not sure many people can.

SOCIETY is not a single consciousness which is either offended by something or not. A thing is offensive on the individual level. Just like there are some black people who are offended by rap music and there are some who are not. Trying to pin a belief or value system on a group as large and diverse as SOCIETY is not only disingenuous it is folly.

LOL I even provided a simplified example (jerk vs. asshole) and you completely ignored it in order to somehow trivialize the views and concepts of society as a whole. C'mon.

And to the bold portion: LOL again. So it's disingenuous for me to suggest that society says that everyone in America should get an education and get a job? That everyone should obey the laws? That everyone should try and help others when possible? That people shouldn't use foul language in formal settings? That people should use "please" and "thank you" to express gratitude?

Oh God....what am I doing??? I am pinning these beliefs and values on a group as large and diverse as SOCIETY.

Either you are trolling HARD.....or this place where you live really is outside the bounds of a typical, everyday community.

What you're really saying is that SOCIETY views homosexuals as lesser than blacks, or at least that the words used to denigrate them are less offensive to our sensibilities. You're probably right, actually. To what degree? Only a liar and a fool would pretend to know.

No to everything you said.

 

[Londa]

I'm talking about GAF. How can what KG does just be met with a "not acceptable," but Kobe's one remark be met with a 27 page thread? Those other athletes have been covered in the media plenty enough, interest groups chose not to jump on them for whatever reason. You can read ESPN articles about Michael Jordan calling people "flaming faggots," and everyone that knows the NBA knows about Kevin Garnett's antics. GAF can spend pages talking about Kobe's tenuous relationship to the Armenian genocide, but not care about multiple athletes' tenuous relationships to the Great Leap Forward (or the owner of the New Jersey Nets being connected with the Russian mafia).

I think people just want to argue and see how many times they can 1up someone by adding and stretching the truth until one or both get banned.

Whoever said blacks vs. gay is totally wrong. No one black on this forums has it out for you. If you didn't take everything to heart and stop adding words to what people say, you would be better off.

 

[Discotheque]

Anybody post this yet? Lmao, based troll:

Lil B announces new album title "I'm Gay"

Lil B addressed the subject of his sexuality in an interview with Complex. "It's a touchy subject. I respect the hell out of gays and the gay community. I'm not a gay man. I don't agree with sex with another man or fucking another man or giving blow jobs to another guy. That's not my thing. I'd rather fuck a girl, fuck her in her ass, fuck her in the mouth or something."

He continued, explaining, "People get scared when they hear the gay word, but when you truly know yourself, you gonna be good. Say for instance you're watching a porno, right. And, you're jacking off and shit, and some gay shit pops up. And you're like, 'Oh, shit!' Either you're gonna look at that shit, or you're not gonna look at it and you're not gonna give a fuck about it. Like, some gay shit can pop up on me, and I don't give a fuck about it. I'm like, 'Oh, that's that gay shit. Get that shit off. Back to the bitches.' But some muthafuckers are in denial. Some dudes are really in denial. They're like, 'What's that? Ohhhh!' And they hate themselves for that. They're like, 'What's wrong with me?' You feel me? And these are motherfuckers that's around us. That's not saying shit. So, it's like, I'm a faggot because I'm so not a faggot. I can say I'm a faggot. I can say I'm the gayest bitch on Earth. And I'm so not gay, it's obvious. I know from my deepest core that I'm very far from gay. So I can say I'm the bitch queen that fucks cows. I'm not."

It is unclear whether Lil B's wish for his album title will become reality; Nas notably tried to title his album Nigger, but was forced to change the title to Untitled.

edit: most offensive post ever? I'm sorry, if it is I'll take it down. please don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Treefingers]

^ WHAT THE FUCK, LOL

Someone translate

 

[btkadams]

I completely disagree with this, someone does NOT "very clearly" have something against the LGBT community just because he calls someone a faggot. How can you extrapolate that Kobe Bryant doesn't like gay people just from him losing control and saying faggot (a word that was widely used by people without any homophobic connotation until relatively recently)?

IMO a lot of posters here are too quick to judge people as homophobes.

i don't understand this. i just watched teen wolf a few weeks ago and the main character was asked if he was a fag (gay). it has been used with homophobic connotation for ages.

 

[spindashing]

Discotheque, that is the best post in this entire thread.

 

[Londa]

in 2011

Lil B=Nas

He sounds like a idiot from that quote.

 

[Treefingers]

i don't understand this. i just watched teen wolf a few weeks ago and the main character was asked if he was a fag (gay). it has been used with homophobic connotation for ages.

I don't know if this is universal but around where I live at least it was used a lot as just a general insult when someone is being annoying, it had nothing to do with someone being gay. Of course the word can be (and is & was) used in the way you describe but calling someone a faggot doesn't necessarily mean you're a homophobe.

 

[kehs]

Anybody post this yet? Lmao, based troll:

Lil B announces new album title "I'm Gay"



edit: most offensive post ever? I'm sorry, if it is I'll take it down. please don't shoot the messenger.

I fucking love Lil B. Holy shit.

Wait so is Lil B gay or not? Not quite sure.

Self explanatory:

'Oh, that's that gay shit. Get that shit off. Back to the bitches.'