Kotaku: Next Xbox will require online connection to start games

Some people seem waiting for the console announcement to know if it's true or not. Obviously they won't accept it in the console announcement. They will show there only the good things, and will keep it 'secret' until almost the release. They aren't dumb, because if they confirm it now they'll loose sales. If the instead show all the good things before, then would be harder to lose this hyped users.
Thats not some inherent truth though. You could be smart like Sony did with Vita, or Nintendo with Wii/WiiU and have the deficit ate by the purchase of a game and controller or something. You can make the box affordable enough to break even with that. Etc.
Well, in the past MS made you paid a good chunk for online multiplayer, big hdd, wifi, etc. If you add at least a game, I doubt they had loses selling 360s.
 
Ill wait for the official word.
But if this is true, I will NOT buy the next gen Xbox or they will have to convince me enough to buy it.
 
Broken router, internet problems at a certain provider or no chance to get a proper connection and people can never play games? There is not a chance in hell M$ can do these things and not shoot themselves in the foot by the long run. It is a ridiculous rumor that needs to be seriously debunked asap.
 
I wonder what Microsoft people think when they read this thread (i'm sure they do read huge forums like this to see what people are saying), i have always wondered if this forum has enough 'power' to change peoples plans and minds.

Like making the Metro interface optional for the PC version of Windows 8, fixing GFWL errors redirecting to a non-existent xbox.com page or their timely acknowledgement of the RROD issue?
 
I cannot wait to see how Microsoft announces this. I'm sure they're aware it's bad PR, so they'll probably try to make it into something "positive" by tying it to some always-online community or communication thing.
 
For me this makes sense. The Xbox dashboard can be an add laden experince if you are signed into Live. I play it mostly unplugged and avoid all the adds, and that is Microsoft missing out on money they could be making off of me. They probably aren't to happy that I rent games as well.
 
Thats not some inherent truth though. You could be smart like Sony did with Vita, or Nintendo with Wii/WiiU and have the deficit ate by the purchase of a game and controller or something. You can make the box affordable enough to break even with that. Etc.

And if there's any model of business these companies want to follow, it's the highly successful Vita/Wii U model we're currently seeing right now.
 
What?

So do you actually have anything or are you gonna keep dancing around it until I maybe shutup?

I'll try to break down the argument. None of us have real numbers, so you'll have to go with a theoretical. Not all customers are made equally. MS may be attempting to force lower value customers into become high value customers. Here's my example:

Customer A: Internet Connection
-Purchases System (Low Revenue, at least until late in system life)
-Purchases Retail Games (Revenue)
-Purchases downloadable retail games (High Revenue)
-Purchases XBLA titles (High Revenue)
-Subscribes to XBL (High Revenue)
-Buys map packs and other DLC (High Revenue)
-Uses movie rental services (High Revenue)
-See ads (High Revenue)

Customer B: Not connected to the Internet
-Purchases System (Low Revenue, at least until late in system life)
-Purchases Retail Games (Revenue)
-Purchases XBLA titles when they are compiled on disk (Revenue)

I believe your argument is that both customers provide revenue. This is true. The number of revenue streams available to Customer A is much greater than B, but if B provides revenue, why would you cut them out of the equation? Consider this...

Marketing and development budgets are finite and must be geared in certain directions. Looking at the two customers, revenue is much more easily derived from Customer A than B, or at the very least there is much more opportunity to derive revenue from Customer A. Looking at the numbers, you see that X% (or whatever number) is Customer A, but they make up far more than that percentage in your revenue. As is obvious, you want more Customer A's. There are two ways to build that customer base. 1.) Market and develop services that appeal to Customer A to pull in more Customer A's and promote more spending among that existing base, or 2.) Turn Customer B's into Customer A's.

On the first, it might not seem to apply here as even if you decide to spend 90% of your money on products and services that can only be used by Customer A, Customer B can still provide their basic revenue stream. Additional investment and development doesn't benefit Customer B, nor does it allow MS to get more money from them. But there is no reason to cut them off.

On the second, the situation is different. While Customer B's provide revenue, if you could turn them into Customer A's, you'd be making a lot more money. If you force online connectivity, two things are likely to occur; 1.) You'll lose some percentage of Customer B's who do not have an internet connection and will not get one and therefore lose this revenue, and 2.) Some percentage of Customer B's will make the additional effort to get online and therefore become Customer A's. IF a large enough percentage of Customer B's become Customer A's, the additional revenue from these new Customer A's may well overcome whatever it lost from the Customer B's that you couldn't force into becoming Customer A's. Did you lose market share? Yes, but now per capita your customers are spending more money, and you're therefore making more money overall with fewer customers.

It's ultimately a gamble as to whether you can force enough Customer B's to get an internet connection and become Customer A's. That's the economic argument. It isn't a surefire way to make more money, but it's a calculated gamble.
 
MS has 75 million consoles in the wild right now

45 million have XBL

30 million do not

Using hypothetical numbers used earlier (£100 per year for connected console /£30 for unconnected) Ms has a total yearly income of £5.55 billion

Losing that 40% that are not connected costs MS £1.05 billion in revenue , to make that up they need the connected users to spend 25% more OR sell 10 million extra consoles at the current spend.

That doesn't make financial sense . You are asking current users to spend more or having to sell a considerable amount more consoles while simultaneously alienating 1/5 of your current market share.
We don't know which percentage of these consoles are broken or from users with more than a console. Publishers support systems that provide them profit, which means huge userbases or moneyhats.

Question...

if this move got them a lot more publisher support and exclusives... Would it change your mind?
If it really hurts the userbase nobody is going to support with exclusives. Publishers support systems that provide them the better profit thanks to big userbases, moneyhats or when they don't have real alternatives for their business model / target user.
 
Like making the Metro interface optional for the PC version of Windows 8, fixing GFWL errors redirecting to a non-existent xbox.com page or their timely acknowledgement of the RROD issue?

Those were quite 'new' known problems though if you know what i mean, not something that might happen months into the future.
I'm sure they have people reading stuff like this to get an idea on how people are viewing certain things (wouldn't you if you were them?) so you never know.
 
Requiring online and Kinect isn't "dangerous precedent" it is giving designers the opportunity to build experiences that aren't possible when you have to account for technology laggards.

No it isn't. That is like saying that we wouldn't have MMOs unless every computer in the world is required to be connected to the internet. The requirement should ALWAYS be on the game not the console.
 
Question...

if this move got them a lot more publisher support and exclusives... Would it change your mind?

Yeah I really don't see how this will net them more publisher support, specially exclusives.

We don't know which percentage of these consoles are broken or from users with more than a console.

Considering Xbox 360 has a higher attach ratio than PS3, either Xbox gamers are way fucking better customers or that number is pretty much what it is.
 
Say you have 100 customers. As my previous example showed, you can get $10 profit per month from these XBL-type customers, 6$ from the others.

You may or maynot retain the same 60% of XBL paying, broadband having users giving you almost twice the profit of the others but you're almost certainly going to lose the 40% of customers without it and no intention of buying it.

In numbers thats a reduction to $600 worth of possible profit, instead of $840 in the current model.

So whats the end-goal of a move like this? A lesser role in the marketplace? Are you banking on your power to convert those "others"? Are you banking on the faithful to part even more of there money unto you? Thats what youre not explaining. What covers up the deficit of customers and more importantly profit?
You assuming the 40 customers who aren't currently enrolled on XBL are all instantly going to shun the console because of the online requirement. But out of those 40, you're going to have:

- people who didn't bother to connect online because they don't play multiplayer - if they're indifferent to the downsides of "always-online", they won't automatically shun the console

- people who didn't see XBL as a worthwhile investment - MS wants to advertise/upsell to this group that wouldn't front the $50-60 a year to access online content

You might also be underestimating the amount of profit they project to make under such a system. If the numbers MS is working with tell them that this is a profitable venture (which is quite plausible), then going through with this isn't so far-fetched. I do wonder if they saw the whole SimCity fiasco and are either reconsidering the proposition or are thinking up ways to pre-emptively damage control the inevitable shitstorm.
 
And if there's any model of business these companies want to follow, it's the highly successful Vita/Wii U model we're currently seeing right now.

If this rumour is indeed true Ms are going to be dreaming of worldwide numbers like the Vita is pulling.

Those were quite 'new' known problems though if you know what i mean, not something that might happen months into the future.
I'm sure they have people reading stuff like this to get an idea on how people are viewing certain things (wouldn't you if you were them?) so you never know.

What you are doing there is attributing human functions like caring what people think about them, when the reasoning behind these decisions would be "how profitable can we make this?".
They really don't give a fuck what people think about it if people are prepared to pay anyway.

Sadly, reading this topic, it seems a bunch of people already are.
 
It seems obvious they will have some kind of online requirement, the rumors wouldn't keep popping up like this otherwise imo.

Depending on how it's implemented I suspect it won't be a big deal to the majority of people who buy it. I don't like it but gaf is a niche crowd compared to mainstream people, I imagine it will still be successful even with draconian DRM + used game restrictions.
 
So much tension in here, everyone it's just a rumor...

Please relax
29676-keep-calm-and-wait-for-all-thi-Ur6J.gif

You're acting like a random kid on the street came here on GAF and posted rumors. The reason they're taken so seriously is because these rumors have been going on for a long ass time, with tons of different reliable sources, not to mention actual leaked Microsoft documents which note the 'always online' bullshit.
 
No it isn't. That is like saying that we wouldn't have MMOs unless every computer in the world is required to be connected to the internet. The requirement should ALWAYS be on the game not the console.
At best it's possible that as part of QA Microsoft requires each game to be playable offline, with FFXI and MHF being the only exceptions, but even then just remove that requirement and make sure games clearly state they need to be online on the front, and done. Enough people are putting their systems online (well over half) that it's more than safe to do for sales now I think.
 
None of these rumours can be true. MS won't suddenly unlearn everything they know about making a successful console, can they? They are fucking numbskulls if even half of what's reported comes to pass.

Yo Beardy: might be time to take Forza multi-plat, yes?
 
This probably won't end up being true, however there's a part of me that wants it to be just for the shits n giggles. Waiting for official confirmation...
 
We don't know which percentage of these consoles are broken or from users with more than a console.

And you also can't assume those "30 million", if there are that many users, who are not connected online because they are not able to. It could be the fact that they don't NEED to be online at all.

Why do you need to be online to play Just Dance for example?
 
At one time TV was beamed through the air for free as long as you purchased the gear to cathc that symbol. Commercials paid for continued content and we put up with them. Then cable came around and suddenly we were paying for a better feed with exsclusive content and commercials were still there. We bitched and moaned but continued to pay our cable bills.
(How can I possibly go to work tomorrow if I haven't seen the most recent Lost!?)

Now our games consoles are becoming family entertainment systems and we're bitching about having to be always connected.

I have complete lack of faith that enough people will vote with their wallets, so this too will come to pass.

I'm not saying its right, I'm saying historically we, people, are horrible consumers. Great for them, horrible for us.
 
Gamers: Fuck off with your online Kinection-required console, Microsoft!

Microsoft at E3: "We've purchased the Call of Duty, Madden, and FIFA franchises!"

Gamers:
jZrtT4K.jpg
 
I cannot wait to see how Microsoft announces this. I'm sure they're aware it's bad PR, so they'll probably try to make it into something "positive" by tying it to some always-online community or communication thing.

They won't announce shit. They'll address it when journalists ask, but they won't draw attention to it.
 
I'll try to break down the argument. None of us have real numbers, so you'll have to go with a theoretical. Not all customers are made equally. MS may be attempting to force lower value customers into become high value customers. Here's my example:

Customer A: Internet Connection
-Purchases System (Low Revenue, at least until late in system life)
-Purchases Retail Games (Revenue)
-Purchases downloadable retail games (High Revenue)
-Purchases XBLA titles (High Revenue)
-Subscribes to XBL (High Revenue)
-Buys map packs and other DLC (High Revenue)
-Uses movie rental services (High Revenue)
-See ads (High Revenue)

Customer B: Not connected to the Internet
-Purchases System (Low Revenue, at least until late in system life)
-Purchases Retail Games (Revenue)
-Purchases XBLA titles when they are compiled on disk (Revenue)

I believe your argument is that both customers provide revenue. This is true. The number of revenue streams available to Customer A is much greater than B, but if B provides revenue, why would you cut them out of the equation? Consider this...

Marketing and development budgets are finite and must be geared in certain directions. Looking at the two customers, revenue is much more easily derived from Customer A than B, or at the very least there is much more opportunity to derive revenue from Customer A. Looking at the numbers, you see that X% (or whatever number) is Customer A, but they make up far more than that percentage in your revenue. As is obvious, you want more Customer A's. There are two ways to build that customer base. 1.) Market and develop services that appeal to Customer A to pull in more Customer A's and promote more spending among that existing base, or 2.) Turn Customer B's into Customer A's.

On the first, it might not seem to apply here as even if you decide to spend 90% of your money on products and services that can only be used by Customer A, Customer B can still provide their basic revenue stream. Additional investment and development doesn't benefit Customer B, nor does it allow MS to get more money from them. But there is no reason to cut them off.

On the second, the situation is different. While Customer B's provide revenue, if you could turn them into Customer A's, you'd be making a lot more money. If you force online connectivity, two things are likely to occur; 1.) You'll lose some percentage of Customer B's who do not have an internet connection and will not get one and therefore lose this revenue, and 2.) Some percentage of Customer B's will make the additional effort to get online and therefore become Customer A's. IF a large enough percentage of Customer B's become Customer A's, the additional revenue from these new Customer A's may well overcome whatever it lost from the Customer B's that you couldn't force into becoming Customer A's. Did you lose market share? Yes, but now per capita your customers are spending more money, and you're therefore making more money overall with fewer customers.

It's ultimately a gamble as to whether you can force enough Customer B's to get an internet connection and become Customer A's. That's the economic argument. It isn't a surefire way to make more money, but it's a calculated gamble.

I agree with your assessment. But I do not think MS is going to convince people to start paying $30-$70 a month for something they don't currently use purely because a console requires it.

Actually, while typing that, I could see a slightly possible event where MS and ISPs offer the new box with new internet contracts at a highly discounted or free rate. The contract would include the ISP service plus whatever service MS is going to offer. Perhaps MS is making a big play in the content delivery space and think they can push it.
 
MS has 75 million consoles in the wild right now

45 million have XBL

30 million do not

Using hypothetical numbers used earlier (£100 per year for connected console /£30 for unconnected) Ms has a total yearly income of £5.55 billion

Losing that 40% that are not connected costs MS £1.05 billion in revenue , to make that up they need the connected users to spend 25% more OR sell 10 million extra consoles at the current spend.
Yes. And I don't find that hard to believe at all, that connected customers spend at least 25% more. Easily.

It still doesn't explain what sense it makes to just disregard, as you put it 40% of their market. If the goal is max profitability.

Say you have 100 customers. As my previous example showed, you can get $10 profit per month from these XBL-type customers, 6$ from the others.

You may or maynot retain the same 60% of XBL paying, broadband having users giving you almost twice the profit of the others but you're almost certainly going to lose the 40% of customers without it and no intention of buying it.

In numbers thats a reduction to $600 worth of possible profit, instead of $840 in the current model.

So whats the end-goal of a move like this? A lesser role in the marketplace? Are you banking on your power to convert those "others"? Are you banking on the faithful to part even more of there money unto you? Thats what youre not explaining. What covers up the deficit of customers and more importantly profit?

I think it's a confluence of motivations on Microsoft's part.

Obviously they like connected customers. They like software-as-service, they have been chasing that dragon since '98 or so.

They hate piracy.

They like pleasing publishers.

They love bundling add-on value-add stuff in their sub services.

They have more console marketplace momentum than ever before.

And they have shareholders that have been grumbling at them for a few quarters about that Entertainment division. Which makes very little money all told. (I know they conflate things themselves.)

So my guess is that they are willing to take a bold gamble this round and demand the connection, for the plethora of benefts as they see it w/r/t digital sales, advertising, customer tracking, DRM and all the rest.

I mean, I hope you are right. I truly do. If they come out tomorrow and say "you idiots, of course we will not require a connection, what are you daft" then I will proudly stand up and say I'm Sorry, Yes I Was A Bit Daft.

I just... have a bad feeling about this. Between their past actions, current circumstances, and the billowing rumour-smoke so thick I can't even see where it's coming from anymore... I just have sort of a bad feeling about this.

But I have no trouble at all seeing how this math could work out. I think connected customers are worth several times what an unconnected customer is, to them. 3:1 or 4:1 in profitability, maybe higher. I base all my conjecture in this thread on that. I'll be first in line for crow if I just overshot.

Are they really gonna spin this shit by saying how games are using the cloud to add processing power?

Suck my dick, that is bullshit.

omg, can you imagine
 
This definitely looks like MS would be shooting themselves in the foot if true. But... assuming that it is indeed going to happen I kind of feel like comparing Microsoft to EA/SimCity is kind of a witch hunt sensationalist joke.

Not to say that I wouldn't mind it or it's not a big deal .. but no fucking way does Microsoft just chill out in Redmond and watch entire swathes of their user base sit at home trying to connect to shitty servers like Maxis and EA have. Their shit will be on lock - ready for massive influx. Like a small nation of freezer boxed servers just waiting. they have the money and the fore sight to make sure that this doesn't COMPLETELY blow up in their faces (on the technical side).

Now... how you talk to millions+ users and gamers and convince them to dive in on this ridiculous shit in the first place? That one i'm not sure about.
 
Corroborates EDGE. But 3 minutes seems way too short - they must be rethinking that. Even SimCity gives you 20.

'Where are all the "always connected" is a good thing, all it means is that your content is always up to date' people?
 
Google Chromebook is online only

Don't shaft MS

Especially since piracy has been rampent this console gen

It's a cloud based laptop. You buy it for that purpose, safe data anywhere anytime as long as you can access the net. Xbox is a gaming console, you buy games for it and it has no such cloud gaming only.
 
I have complete lack of faith that enough people will vote with their wallets, so this too will come to pass.

I'm not saying its right, I'm saying historically we, people, are horrible consumers. Great for them, horrible for us.

Ah, but people are voting with their wallets, and their overwhelming, resounding cry is, "We don't care enough to do anything about it!" Sad, but the reality.
 
I think that proves that Kotaku rumour is a bust. In Aegeis we trust. MS won't enforce something like this.

And in reality, most have internet (remember that 22 million figure for XBL gold membership base?).

This will curb piracy.

Don't know if sarcasm is being used or not. All i can say is that they would be alienating alot of gamers if they do this. Remember PS1, PS2, Gamecube, Nintendo 64 and all the consoles before without internet connectivity? Imagine all those gamers being denied access to gaming.

All the gamers here on the forums are hardcore somewhat to the extent that it wouldn't kill their experience that much, so therefor your opinion is mute compared to those who game offline 100% of their gaming time.

I would say that it would lead to more piracy then ever before. If you cant play the games you buy, you'd rather find other means of gaming wouldn't you?

Anyways, i really hope Microsoft doesn't go this route, think of those with poor internet reception(something you have very little control over). Imagine all the times they get interrupted ingame because of loss of connection. You'd figure sooner or later they'd get tired of it and stop gaming all together. That would really hurt the industry more than any savings they'd make combating software piracy.

If Sony doesn't have forced online, they'd better use it to their advantage and market their console as for EVERYONE and not only the ones who are connected.
 
If this turns out to be true, I might just skip the next generation completely.
My Wii U and 3DS will do me just fine and having a nice backlog of just over 3000 games doesn't hurt either. ;)
 
So what is the point of a feature like this? Is it to stop piracy or used games? Boo Microsoft, I never really liked your consoles anyway.
 
Can you imagine paying for xbox live being mandatory? Because games are using the cloud so it counts as Xbox live Gold service.

The box saying "Requires Xbox live gold", damn.
 
I'll try to break down the argument. None of us have real numbers, so you'll have to go with a theoretical. Not all customers are made equally. MS may be attempting to force lower value customers into become high value customers. Here's my example:

Customer A: Internet Connection
-Purchases System (Low Revenue, at least until late in system life)
-Purchases Retail Games (Revenue)
-Purchases downloadable retail games (High Revenue)
-Purchases XBLA titles (High Revenue)
-Subscribes to XBL (High Revenue)
-Buys map packs and other DLC (High Revenue)
-Uses movie rental services (High Revenue)
-See ads (High Revenue)

Customer B: Not connected to the Internet
-Purchases System (Low Revenue, at least until late in system life)
-Purchases Retail Games (Revenue)
-Purchases XBLA titles when they are compiled on disk (Revenue)

I believe your argument is that both customers provide revenue. This is true. The number of revenue streams available to Customer A is much greater than B, but if B provides revenue, why would you cut them out of the equation? Consider this...

Marketing and development budgets are finite and must be geared in certain directions. Looking at the two customers, revenue is much more easily derived from Customer A than B, or at the very least there is much more opportunity to derive revenue from Customer A. Looking at the numbers, you see that X% (or whatever number) is Customer A, but they make up far more than that percentage in your revenue. As is obvious, you want more Customer A's. There are two ways to build that customer base. 1.) Market and develop services that appeal to Customer A to pull in more Customer A's and promote more spending among that existing base, or 2.) Turn Customer B's into Customer A's.

On the first, it might not seem to apply here as even if you decide to spend 90% of your money on products and services that can only be used by Customer A, Customer B can still provide their basic revenue stream. Additional investment and development doesn't benefit Customer B, nor does it allow MS to get more money from them. But there is no reason to cut them off.

On the second, the situation is different. While Customer B's provide revenue, if you could turn them into Customer A's, you'd be making a lot more money. If you force online connectivity, two things are likely to occur; 1.) You'll lose some percentage of Customer B's who do not have an internet connection and will not get one and therefore lose this revenue, and 2.) Some percentage of Customer B's will make the additional effort to get online and therefore become Customer A's. IF a large enough percentage of Customer B's become Customer A's, the additional revenue from these new Customer A's may well overcome whatever it lost from the Customer B's that you couldn't force into becoming Customer A's. Did you lose market share? Yes, but now per capita your customers are spending more money, and you're therefore making more money overall with fewer customers.

It's ultimately a gamble as to whether you can force enough Customer B's to get an internet connection and become Customer A's. That's the economic argument. It isn't a surefire way to make more money, but it's a calculated gamble.
Naw im speaking pure profit. But you do seem to agree that they are banking on the gamble of converting customers to make up the deficit.

How sound logic that is remains to be seen.
 
Don't know if sarcasm is being used or not. All i can say is that they would be alienating alot of gamers if they do this. Remember PS1, PS2, Gamecube, Nintendo 64 and all the consoles before without internet connectivity? Imagine all those gamers being denied access to gaming.

All the gamers here on the forums are hardcore somewhat to the extent that it wouldn't kill their experience that much, so therefor your opinion is mute compared to those who game offline 100% of their gaming time.

I would say that it would lead to more piracy then ever before. If you cant play the games you buy, you'd rather find other means of gaming wouldn't you?

Anyways, i really hope Microsoft doesn't go this route, think of those with poor internet reception(something you have very little control over). Imagine all the times they get interrupted ingame because of loss of connection. You'd figure sooner or later they'd get tired of it and stop gaming all together. That would really hurt the industry more than any savings they'd make combating software piracy.

If Sony doesn't have forced online, they'd better use it to their advantage and market their console as for EVERYONE and not only the ones who are connected.

I hope this answers your question:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=52665333&postcount=752
 
If this rumour is indeed true Ms are going to be dreaming of worldwide numbers like the Vita is pulling.

Here's the thing though. Good majority of Gaf (me included) always seem to forget that WE are the minority of the gaming population.

We have a general mass population of 6-25 year olds who don't and won't give one damn about always being online. They just want to play the new COD or Halo. And if their friends have the Nextbox, you can be damn sure they'll get one too.

Our only saving grace actually is that they get disconnected at some point and say fuck it. Lmao. Seriously
 
They won't announce shit. They'll address it when journalists ask, but they won't draw attention to it.

They will have to at some point or you're going to get tons of people who are not geeks like us checking news constantly (parents a prime example) that will buy the 720 not knowing about this then get it home and realise that they can't play it, can you imagine the backlash and bad press at say Christmas time!.
 
MrNyarlathotep said:
It's comparison console would be OnLive. Not an Xbox.


Wow, I remember reading about OnLive atleast in a final fantasy 9 strategy guide. Never used it tho, since the psx didn't have online. I just thought it was like a extra tip section.

Edit:
Nope. It's reffered to as Playonline in the guide, not OnLive as I thought.
 
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