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League of Legends |OT| Free to play Dota clone (PC)
- Thread starter blitz64
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Uchip said:
I reckon its fucking stupid.
I wonder how some of those Dreamhack teams would deal with a Sona or Janna that has at least 70 minions by 30 minutes and a fair amount of AP increasing their damage output/healing effects.
I know I'm not the only to have been hurt by a Janna or Sona who actually have a fair amount of AP.
SouthernDragon
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Teknopathetic
Member
"I reckon its fucking stupid.
I wonder how some of those Dreamhack teams would deal with a Sona or Janna that has at least 70 minions by 30 minutes and a fair amount of AP increasing their damage output/healing effects."
The support characters aren't picked for their damage, but for their utility. Janna's abilities provide utility to the team regardless of whether she has farm or not. Same with Sona. They can make a difference in fights immediately. Farm would make them better, sure, but most carries have no reliable utility besides their damage and you want them to be able to make a difference in fights ASAP, which is why they babysit until the carries get farmed.
I wonder how some of those Dreamhack teams would deal with a Sona or Janna that has at least 70 minions by 30 minutes and a fair amount of AP increasing their damage output/healing effects."
The support characters aren't picked for their damage, but for their utility. Janna's abilities provide utility to the team regardless of whether she has farm or not. Same with Sona. They can make a difference in fights immediately. Farm would make them better, sure, but most carries have no reliable utility besides their damage and you want them to be able to make a difference in fights ASAP, which is why they babysit until the carries get farmed.
The US teams did not play the same babysitting style as the EU teams in a tourney before Dreamhack (ESL, I think). The US teams got crushed (with 150 ping, mind you), and started to play EU style as well. I believe we got one or two matches like that in Dreamhack as well.Kozak said:
I think doing zero kills flat out is a poor idea. Lets do some math.
You want to get a Philosopher's Stone as your first item, a rather useful Gold Per 10 item. This is 800 gold.
Now, lets assume you have greed also, this will give you 15 gold per 10 seconds. If you do nothing else then rush a Philosopher's Stone, use all 475 gold into getting it (A somewhat poor idea), it will take 217 seconds after minions spawn to gain enough gold to get it, or 5 minutes and 7 seconds after game start.
But, getting nothing but the items that build into a gold per 10 doesn't tend to work out. So, lets start with a more likely starting build. A Faerie Charm, some Wards and Pots, lets just assume you spend all 475 gold. Now, with only a Faerie Charm, it will take anther 620 gold. To get that much, it will take 413 seconds after minions spawn to get enough gold, or till the 8 minute 23 second mark. Now, this is assuming no kills, but lets assume you are having a poor game where you are dying quiet a bit or just can't do anything. Having nothing but a Philosopher's Stone roughly 8 minutes into the game can make it so you won't be able to help as much.
Now, the easiest solution is to kill some, but not many minions at the start, get the stone, and then let the AD carry farm. The rates at the start of the game is 16 for caster, 22 for Melee (increases 1 gold per every 5 minutes after spawn)
Lets average the two to 19 per minion. So, every minion kill will shave off 12 2/3 seconds to get a Philosopher's Stone..
With needing all 800 gold, it would take till 10 minutes 23 seconds to get 800 gold with no minion kills. Needing 620 (Start with a Faerie Charm), it will take 8 minutes 23 second into the game to get enough gold. Needing 365 gold (starting with Regrowth Pendant), it would still take 5 minutes and 33 seconds to get enough gold.
Now, if you started with a Faerie Charm, and killed 1 minion per wave (Which spawns every 30 seconds), you would be able to get enough gold at roughly the 6 to 7 minute mark. If you were able to get enough gold at the 6 minute mark, you would not only have the 190 gold for killing the minions extra, you would be able to get anther 70 gold in the time between when you would normally get the stone and the accelerated time.
Now, you can argue that the 190 gold would be better for an early game AD carry, but allowing the Support an extra 260 gold can be put into several wards, which can keep people safe and better allow for kills. Or they can be invested into a second gold per 10 item, like a Kage's Lucky Pick, which will net you anther 65 gold in the saved time.
tl;dr
Allowing for some early minion kills can allow a support to to accelerate his build, making him more of a use to the team mid game, at a "minimal" loss to the AD carry. This allow a more safe mid game in the event the AD carry gets shut down early game IMO.
You want to get a Philosopher's Stone as your first item, a rather useful Gold Per 10 item. This is 800 gold.
Now, lets assume you have greed also, this will give you 15 gold per 10 seconds. If you do nothing else then rush a Philosopher's Stone, use all 475 gold into getting it (A somewhat poor idea), it will take 217 seconds after minions spawn to gain enough gold to get it, or 5 minutes and 7 seconds after game start.
But, getting nothing but the items that build into a gold per 10 doesn't tend to work out. So, lets start with a more likely starting build. A Faerie Charm, some Wards and Pots, lets just assume you spend all 475 gold. Now, with only a Faerie Charm, it will take anther 620 gold. To get that much, it will take 413 seconds after minions spawn to get enough gold, or till the 8 minute 23 second mark. Now, this is assuming no kills, but lets assume you are having a poor game where you are dying quiet a bit or just can't do anything. Having nothing but a Philosopher's Stone roughly 8 minutes into the game can make it so you won't be able to help as much.
Now, the easiest solution is to kill some, but not many minions at the start, get the stone, and then let the AD carry farm. The rates at the start of the game is 16 for caster, 22 for Melee (increases 1 gold per every 5 minutes after spawn)
Lets average the two to 19 per minion. So, every minion kill will shave off 12 2/3 seconds to get a Philosopher's Stone..
With needing all 800 gold, it would take till 10 minutes 23 seconds to get 800 gold with no minion kills. Needing 620 (Start with a Faerie Charm), it will take 8 minutes 23 second into the game to get enough gold. Needing 365 gold (starting with Regrowth Pendant), it would still take 5 minutes and 33 seconds to get enough gold.
Now, if you started with a Faerie Charm, and killed 1 minion per wave (Which spawns every 30 seconds), you would be able to get enough gold at roughly the 6 to 7 minute mark. If you were able to get enough gold at the 6 minute mark, you would not only have the 190 gold for killing the minions extra, you would be able to get anther 70 gold in the time between when you would normally get the stone and the accelerated time.
Now, you can argue that the 190 gold would be better for an early game AD carry, but allowing the Support an extra 260 gold can be put into several wards, which can keep people safe and better allow for kills. Or they can be invested into a second gold per 10 item, like a Kage's Lucky Pick, which will net you anther 65 gold in the saved time.
tl;dr
Allowing for some early minion kills can allow a support to to accelerate his build, making him more of a use to the team mid game, at a "minimal" loss to the AD carry. This allow a more safe mid game in the event the AD carry gets shut down early game IMO.
Taking only the minion kills the carry is unable to take for him/herself should be about as good as it gets.
In the best-case scenario the support will get gold from assists thanks to straight out kills in the bot lane or due to a jungler. The carry not having good items will put you into a disadvantage in a fight in the bot lane (if you only have one doran's blade while the enemy has two you will feel it). Carries also choose Exhaust as a summoner spell due to the occurrence of these early game fights in the bot lane. It's not that big of a deal if you have Soraka, since you can heal up better than your opponent.
Sure, one or two minion kills won't really hurt and might give you an advantage. They might also make your carry unable to go back and get boots + dorans (early) or boots + BFS (if you've had a good lane), which will really hurt your chances in a fight.
Just a note to all support players: Use gold quints. They really add up when you play a babysitting support.
In the best-case scenario the support will get gold from assists thanks to straight out kills in the bot lane or due to a jungler. The carry not having good items will put you into a disadvantage in a fight in the bot lane (if you only have one doran's blade while the enemy has two you will feel it). Carries also choose Exhaust as a summoner spell due to the occurrence of these early game fights in the bot lane. It's not that big of a deal if you have Soraka, since you can heal up better than your opponent.
Sure, one or two minion kills won't really hurt and might give you an advantage. They might also make your carry unable to go back and get boots + dorans (early) or boots + BFS (if you've had a good lane), which will really hurt your chances in a fight.
Just a note to all support players: Use gold quints. They really add up when you play a babysitting support.
A Gold quints will add 6 gold per minute, or 180 gold in a 30 minute game, or 540 with all 3. You can easily make that up with being able to secure kills with extra mobility. I rather have Speed quints then gold quints, since for any character with CC abilities, being able to to disable a fleeing enemy is by far the most useful thing. And the 4.5% extra move speed from quints can make a huge difference in just when you are able to catch up.
And the point of taking a minion per every wave for the first few minutes is in the event the game goes bad. What happens if nether team in the bottom is able to kill someone till the 10 minute mark, and your AD carry has had to recall once or twice? Sure, you may be able to get some gold by killing the minions when the AD carry is away, but there is a good chance the enemy team can be zoning you from gold with you by your self also.
And the point of taking a minion per every wave for the first few minutes is in the event the game goes bad. What happens if nether team in the bottom is able to kill someone till the 10 minute mark, and your AD carry has had to recall once or twice? Sure, you may be able to get some gold by killing the minions when the AD carry is away, but there is a good chance the enemy team can be zoning you from gold with you by your self also.
To add to the discussion:
Supports by the nature of their kit are useful without any items (or else they wouldnt be support champions). However AD carries are useless without items since they are reliant on autoattacks. You argue for having 260gold to help you along, but that 260 gold goes towards a 2nd doran's blade. This leads me onto my second point.
Gold snowballs - more gold earlier on helps generate more gold which in turn helps to generate more gold - because gold helps the carry last hit better, farm better, live longer, get more kills etc. And gold is so important for carries because...
AD carries scale to the third power - AD, attack speed and crit. This is also why theyre so weak early game because they can are so strong with items.
Supports by the nature of their kit are useful without any items (or else they wouldnt be support champions). However AD carries are useless without items since they are reliant on autoattacks. You argue for having 260gold to help you along, but that 260 gold goes towards a 2nd doran's blade. This leads me onto my second point.
Gold snowballs - more gold earlier on helps generate more gold which in turn helps to generate more gold - because gold helps the carry last hit better, farm better, live longer, get more kills etc. And gold is so important for carries because...
AD carries scale to the third power - AD, attack speed and crit. This is also why theyre so weak early game because they can are so strong with items.
Just to point out, they would loose 190 while you gain 260 in the example, since you would get the gold per 10 item 140 seconds sooner. And part of the argument is that the mana saved or extra health can make or break an laning phase fight.
The main point is that I don't think putting all your eggs in one basket is a good idea. By allowing the support some farm, you are hedging your bets, allowing for a larger likely hood of turning around a negative situation. The argument goes both ways I know. It doesn't matter if you can keep the AD carry alive longer if they can't harm the enemy, but they AD carry can't carry while dead.
Now, if you can manage to get an early kill, then taking last hits is largely unneeded, since you have your gold right there from an assist, and makes the whole point moot.
The main point is that I don't think putting all your eggs in one basket is a good idea. By allowing the support some farm, you are hedging your bets, allowing for a larger likely hood of turning around a negative situation. The argument goes both ways I know. It doesn't matter if you can keep the AD carry alive longer if they can't harm the enemy, but they AD carry can't carry while dead.
Now, if you can manage to get an early kill, then taking last hits is largely unneeded, since you have your gold right there from an assist, and makes the whole point moot.
I still don't think GP5 items are worth it. For HoG it takes only 2 minutes to reach efficiency but 27 minutes to break even assuming you're selling it by late game. Since you won't get it until around 7 minutes in barring some very good farming, it'll begin to turn a profit around the 35 minute mark.
Assuming you sell it at 40 minutes in for a real item, it'll give you a total of 150g.
So, over the course of 40 minutes, you got 250 bonus health and an additional 150g. Not bad considering it's "free", but is it worth delaying core items?
Also the AD carry thing: Not all carries require massive farm. Even though they all scale with it, some carries can kill without items, and some carries require items to do anything. Furthermore, if the damage in the game is scaling, but your support is not, they'll be worth and worth less every team fight. This is why I don't like it when i see Jannas or Sonas build support stuff like Mana Manipulator or Aegis. I'll take stronger heals/shields and nukes over a smidgen of an advantage anyday.
The whole "let your carries have all the kills" is intuitive in dota/hon because:
1) Income is slow in dota/hon. Relying on the natural trickle won't get you anywhere
2) If you get ganked you'll lose whatever gold you don't spend
3) Once your carry gets a BKB, they don't need to worry about getting locked down (assuming there's no one on the other team with superior magic). Completing an item and not completing an item can make or break a team fight. This is less true in LoL since all items are more or less stat boosts that don't significantly change the way you fight in any way.
4) Support heroes don't scale. They don't need items because they can reach their potential cap without them. In LoL, the damage/heal potential of a support hero is limited only by their items, and they're balanced around this fact. What good is Zilean's ult without AP to back it up? Or Janna's shield if it breaks in 1-2 hits?
5) Wards are cheap. You need only one or two to get a good coverage since you can put them on elevated spots for vision bonuses, and they last 6 minutes. You get gold back when you kill an enemy ward, helping to mitigate the costs of the counterwarding game.
Assuming you sell it at 40 minutes in for a real item, it'll give you a total of 150g.
So, over the course of 40 minutes, you got 250 bonus health and an additional 150g. Not bad considering it's "free", but is it worth delaying core items?
Also the AD carry thing: Not all carries require massive farm. Even though they all scale with it, some carries can kill without items, and some carries require items to do anything. Furthermore, if the damage in the game is scaling, but your support is not, they'll be worth and worth less every team fight. This is why I don't like it when i see Jannas or Sonas build support stuff like Mana Manipulator or Aegis. I'll take stronger heals/shields and nukes over a smidgen of an advantage anyday.
The whole "let your carries have all the kills" is intuitive in dota/hon because:
1) Income is slow in dota/hon. Relying on the natural trickle won't get you anywhere
2) If you get ganked you'll lose whatever gold you don't spend
3) Once your carry gets a BKB, they don't need to worry about getting locked down (assuming there's no one on the other team with superior magic). Completing an item and not completing an item can make or break a team fight. This is less true in LoL since all items are more or less stat boosts that don't significantly change the way you fight in any way.
4) Support heroes don't scale. They don't need items because they can reach their potential cap without them. In LoL, the damage/heal potential of a support hero is limited only by their items, and they're balanced around this fact. What good is Zilean's ult without AP to back it up? Or Janna's shield if it breaks in 1-2 hits?
5) Wards are cheap. You need only one or two to get a good coverage since you can put them on elevated spots for vision bonuses, and they last 6 minutes. You get gold back when you kill an enemy ward, helping to mitigate the costs of the counterwarding game.
I think it's critical to understand just how good the top tier players are. In a normal pub match, I think supports should farm like normal because there is no way a regular Joe Schmoe will be able to last hit with the efficiency of a pro. I mean, we're talking about people who can get CS scores of over 300 in like a 30-35 minute game.
I've tried Eleisa's Miracle lots of times annnd... I'm not feeling it. I usually get a philo's stone on Jarven or Irelia, but if I'm scared of disables I feel like merc treads is a better choice. It's not like any of the boots are so good that it's worth taking up an extra slot just so you can have AS boots or Boots 3.
I can't stand the thought of delaying my core items for some minuscule benefit.
I can't stand the thought of delaying my core items for some minuscule benefit.
I tend to find Merc's Treds near the bottom of the choice of items I want. If I am scared of CC, I'll use a Quicksilver sash, since I can choice when it activates, and its a fairly cheap item. The main reason I get the Eleisa's Miracle is the 20 mana per 5, plus the HP regen is nice too.
Edit: Ah, solo matches. Due to my fairly poor win loss ratio due to almost always playing in premades, I get paired with very angry people. And a few poor players too. The Nasus from the last game was just pissed at the whole team. Complained he can't carry 4 noobs as a tank, saying we are all unskilled, calling us feeders, telling them to report me for being unskilled, ect. Surrender vote failed 4 times, 2 people just wouldn't vote no. I just reported him for having a negative attitude, an option which I haven't noticed before. He was very angry.
Wanted to play anther game as Taric, but someone begged me to switch (Who was even worse then me, never healed anyone ever, nor helped to much at all). With 2 tanky characters (The Tanks decided to lane together at top also), and 2 DPS characters (Twisted Fate and Master Yi) at bottom, I decided to pick the one AP carry I somewhat know how to play, Ryze. Now, before the game started, I assumed Twisted Fate would take middle, and I would be with ether Taric or Nasus, but nope, I was put in the middle. For better or worse, the other middle was also Ryze, and while I had the early advantage, I didn't remember how to build the character right, so when it came to the big stand off with both of us at about the same health, we both did the same combo with him out damaging me and killing me. After that, Alistar kept coming up and ganking. I ward the bottom bush, he comes out the top bush. I get both warded, He actually comes from behind my own tower. Crazy.
Edit: Ah, solo matches. Due to my fairly poor win loss ratio due to almost always playing in premades, I get paired with very angry people. And a few poor players too. The Nasus from the last game was just pissed at the whole team. Complained he can't carry 4 noobs as a tank, saying we are all unskilled, calling us feeders, telling them to report me for being unskilled, ect. Surrender vote failed 4 times, 2 people just wouldn't vote no. I just reported him for having a negative attitude, an option which I haven't noticed before. He was very angry.
Wanted to play anther game as Taric, but someone begged me to switch (Who was even worse then me, never healed anyone ever, nor helped to much at all). With 2 tanky characters (The Tanks decided to lane together at top also), and 2 DPS characters (Twisted Fate and Master Yi) at bottom, I decided to pick the one AP carry I somewhat know how to play, Ryze. Now, before the game started, I assumed Twisted Fate would take middle, and I would be with ether Taric or Nasus, but nope, I was put in the middle. For better or worse, the other middle was also Ryze, and while I had the early advantage, I didn't remember how to build the character right, so when it came to the big stand off with both of us at about the same health, we both did the same combo with him out damaging me and killing me. After that, Alistar kept coming up and ganking. I ward the bottom bush, he comes out the top bush. I get both warded, He actually comes from behind my own tower. Crazy.
Legato.Reborn-
Member
shintoki said:
They are.
Bottom choice of boots I like picking I should of said, I just don't use them to often. I'll get Cooldown Boots or Speed/Mobility boots far more often the the Merc Treds.shintoki said:
They aren't bad by any means, but just a choice I don't pick often unless I am playing with a really heavy CC team.
Started playing Akali since she's free, holy shit is she fun. I'm no Westrice, but I've definitely pulled some epic triple kills by laying down the veil, Q + ulting to take out one person, dodging back into the veil and then repeating.
Also, best scenario ever: low-health enemy is running away and is just out out of range. I ult onto his teammate and then onto the low-health guy, snagging the kill. Then I ult onto a minion wave to get away
Also, best scenario ever: low-health enemy is running away and is just out out of range. I ult onto his teammate and then onto the low-health guy, snagging the kill. Then I ult onto a minion wave to get away
SouthernDragon
Member
I just calculated that I'm going to spend $100 on this game, getting two RP packs.
SouthernDragon
Member
Mediocre RAMMUS
We crushed them pretty good.
We crushed them pretty good.
Jazzy Network
Member
Sorry guys power went out.
SouthernDragon
Member
Parris? Your connection is whack.
Weirdest victory ever.
Weirdest victory ever.
Jazzy Network
Member
Fucking power went out again fuck this.
SouthernDragon
Member
Parris keeps disconnecting...
Edit:
Yeah, but I want to save my IP for Runes. I want to get Rune Pages and quite a few champs to diversify my play.
Edit 2: PLEASE GET MUMBLE
http://mumble.sourceforge.net/
Edit:
Yeah, but I want to save my IP for Runes. I want to get Rune Pages and quite a few champs to diversify my play.
Edit 2: PLEASE GET MUMBLE
http://mumble.sourceforge.net/
SouthernDragon
Member
Man, I'm going to have to play against bots for a million hours before I pick up any other champ
I'd say the move speed quints are only useful for Taric and Alistar. Sona got her movespeed buff, Janna got a movespeed buff and you simply don't need it on Soraka.Drkirby said:
Well, your AD carry is most certainly not perfect in creep killing, thus I think supports should limit themselves to taking the creeps the AD carry cannot take. The carry might not be able to take all 6 minions every wave, and in that case I'd let them take all 6 as often as they can. By limiting oneself to taking the ones the carry cannot take (due to different circumstances, like dodging an attack from the enemy), you won't be hurting the carry's farm. This is not an easy task, judging which creeps can be taken (actually it's hard as fuck to perfect; I sure can't do it well enough). Getting items will ensure future creep kills for the AD carry.
In case the game goes bad, I'd rather have a carry with an extra doran's blade (or an elixir of agility, for that matter) than a support with an extra ruby crystal.
Legato.Reborn-
Member
Grakl said:
And that's AFTER his nerf.
Try laning against Scarra as Rumble at top.
Not a fun time AT ALL.
SouthernDragon
Member
My family pissed me off with something irrelevant and stupid right before the match started.
We lost before minute 1.
We lost before minute 1.
CrazedProfessional
Member
Every time I play Rumble I do average, maybe he's just not my play style.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Legato.Reborn- said:
Brand + Rumble...Always on fire, always slowed.
I need ranked friends add me: Dubbedinenglish. Solo que has so good teams that I get put on...
SouthernDragon
Member
Fuck this game
SouthernDragon
Member
Fucking Gangplank.
Oh well, at least now I found a new, decent hero to playwith. And EXGN, as far as I'm concerned, that WAS my first game.
thestopsign
Member
I've picked up Rumble recently and have been doing well with him. The key is to not use his flamethrower in lane unless you are zoning out the enemy. Rumble is very effective when he has his distance to chase and wear down the opposition, but it he pushes into a tower he can't last hit easily/safely or zone out effectively. His ult is great for chaotic team fights, but I find using it on just one champ normally isn't that beneficial. It is most effective when it separates a team and they have to make the decision to stay separated or take the damage by crossing over it.
I tend to play Taric and Alistar though, but good point. It does come down to who you play.Leezard said:
And on a tangent, I find it funny I thought that post that originality only said Parris was poking fun of me putting 2 r's in Garen's name (And also using an O instead of an E)
I have been thinking about Jarvan alot and he seems to be really good, maybe I'll save up the ip for him, it "only" 4800.FlightOfHeaven said:
Fucking Gangplank.
Oh well, at least now I found a new, decent hero to playwith. And EXGN, as far as I'm concerned, that WAS my first game.
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