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League of Legends |OT| Free to play Dota clone (PC)
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Legato.Reborn-
Member
neogaf channel is much bigger than I thought!
Legato.Reborn- said:
1) Udyr isnt abusive. people just need to learn to counter him.
2) I dont care about my elo. I really dont. I play maybe 1 ranked game a week. Just so happened that last week i did about 6 on one day and 4 of them i happened to get my jungle udyr and was happy. I play normal and ARAMs. I play what is fun. Ranked is the same old tired champions over and over again for the most part. So yeah... you are very wrong.
3)I very much enjoy Udyr's uniqueness. There is no other champion like him because he is always in your face if he wants to kill you and he has no ULT. It makes it a challenge.
4) SO its the same argument? Doesnt make it any less valid.
The vlad argument doesnt work because he had a super low cooldown RANGED move that gives him the ability to get health back plus fucking sanguine pool that used to pop projectiles. Big difference between Udyr and Vlad and to even compare them is just ridiculous.
As for Udyr having infinite sustain... you are very wrong. He doesnt. Lets look at some numbers.
Turtle Stance
Shield Strength: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220
Damage to Health Restored Ratio: 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20 %
Damage to Mana Restored Ratio: 9 / 10.5 / 12 / 13.5 / 15 %
Nasus: Soul Eater
14 / 17 / 20% lifesteal.
Olaf: Vicious Strikes
Lifesteal & Spell Vamp: 9 / 12 / 15 / 18 / 21 %
Warwick:Eternal Thirst
Each of Warwick's autoattacks will heal him for 6 / 12 / 18 health
Hungering Strike:75 / 125 / 175 / 225 / 275 (+1.0 per ability power) healing for 80% of the damage dealt
Xin Zhao:Tireless Warrior
healed for 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 hit points for every 3 attacks that he lands.
Shen: Vorpal Blade
Magic Damage: 50 / 90 / 130 / 170 / 210 (+0.6 per ability power)
Heal: 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50
Gragas: Happy Hour
Gragas takes a drink from his cask every time he uses an ability, restoring 2% of his maximum health over 4 seconds.
Fiddlesticks: Drain
Magic Damage Per Second: 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 (+0.45 per ability power)
Percentage Drained: 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 %
Ok so here are just a few skills to compare turtle stance to. Lets start with Nasus. Better lifesteal at level 1, stays better till udyr hits level 3 at the very least and by level 16 both have the same amount of lifesteal. Oh except Nasus has it on all the time whereas Udyr has to actually be in turtle stance to get that benefit. Oh and nasus has 2 ranged moves in spirit fire and whither.
Olaf: Ok so his isnt as great as turtle stance early on but at later levels he has a better ability plus he gets spell vamp so Reckless Swing and Undertow heal him too. Oh and did we mention olaf gets to be immune to CC for an ULT and has a ranged attack?
Warwick: Always on heal like nasus but not quite as good but he can get a large chunk of health back with hungering strike which is out of melee range. Oh and a ranged ult that suppresses, not stuns, BUT SUPPRESSES the enemy.
Xin Zhao: AOE ult, aoe dash, knockup, oh and sustain from passive
Gragas: Sustain from Passive and Drunken Rage. sounds kind of imba to me!!!! lol
Shen: low cooldown ranged nuke that lets you heal too if you get a hit? Wow!!!
Fiddlesticks: a ranged lifesteal? must be broken!!!
So what was the point of me bringing up these champions? Well they are just a few examples of people with sustain. I mean they all can get health back and even one of them can regain mana too! Its amazing how all of them but fiddlesticks are melee champions too that no one seems to have a problem with when some of them have even better sustain than udyr. I wonder why these champs arent a problem? Could it be that people harass them in lane so they cannot sustain themselves? No it couldnt be that because all of them have some sort of ranged ability or dash as a gap closer to harass back when udyr doesnt have any of those. So what makes them so assailable when Udyr isnt? Oh wait i know what it is. Its the turtle shield that lasts forever on udyr blocking all damage for the entire game. No it cant be that because it only last 5 seconds and only absorbs 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 damage. Oh and it does have mana costs do udyr cannot have it up forever can he? Oh but he gets mana back on each hit while in turtle stance? I wonder how you counter that? I dont know... maybe push him off the creeps, poke him when the shield is down, break the shild then poke more, put someone with good sustain and burst against him? Hmm wonder why no one thought of these things?
Summary: If you know how to push udyr off creeps he isnt any more of a problem than anyone i listed above. In fact udyr is less of a problem because he is one the only champion in the game that has ZERO ranged attacks. Every other melee champ has a ranged attack, or dash, or some skill that can actually be used outside of melee range.
So i repeat, you are bad for not knowing how to counter Udyr.
As for him promoting passive gameplay... he promotes it for himself. He has to play passive because he doesnt have shit for early game damage. If you poke him he will run out of mana, You just have to know when to attack and how to bait out the shield.
Edit: If you really want to go with pure passive laning solo soraka vs udyr. She cant hurt him and she can farm all day while she heals herself and gives back mana.... sounds like infinite sustain to me!
SouthernDragon
Member
boooooring
i hope teemo gets a new skin
i hope teemo gets a new skin
Legato.Reborn- said:
what didnt you get when i said i have something like 2500 games as udyr alone played? He doesnt get the most CS in a game. I jungle with him almost exclusively too. And i also main junglers. I dont play high farming champions like sivir or ashe. So sure you will have more minions killed than me. Congrats on not paying attention though. You are winning the game of ignorance.
This is a poor comparison. Lackluster jungle, poor farm, poor ganking abilities, needs to take damage to reach his full potential, can only lifesteal tank, heavily reliant on mana. There is nothing Olaf can do that Udyr can't do better.
Warwick's laning abilities were nerfed for exactly the same reasons they're nerfing Udyr now.
Xin definitely has a better early game than Udyr but he loses his edge pretty fast. Also he's significantly squishier.
Gragas relies on spell spam to keep his health up. His high mana costs prohibit him from spamming early game.
Most people get one level of Vorpal during laning phase, two at most. And they typically use it for last hitting and harass, rather than actual restoration. He can't carry, and he can't farm, leaving him unable to tank very well as the game drags on. His biggest asset is his Ult and they nerfed it pretty hard. I haven't seen many Shens since the big nerf really.
Fiddle is pretty powerful early game, but a single interrupt/silence shuts down his drain life and it's significantly easier to land it on a channeling foe. Also he can't carry and his farming isn't so great (since it's always a better idea to level Terror over Dark Wind).
There is no one on this list I would rather gank more than Udyr. His sustainability isn't the sole issue, it's when Turtle Stance is added to the rest of his skill set and potential.
Legato.Reborn-
Member
*cracks fingers*
HERE - WE - GO!
vlad argument
You brought up that shit about having sooooo much more experience than me and how I have noooo idea what I'm talking about.
I finished it.
I agree! He's a very unique champion that is loads of fun to play.
Wait.. what? Is this replying to my vlad convo? What do you mean it doesn't make it any less valid?
Udyr has a speed buff stun, massive nuke, and the ability to regen hp and mana upon auto attacks. Of course W isn't comparable to sanguine pool, you're being ridiculous. I'm comparing the ability to stay in the lane forever and still dish out a mass amount of damage.
Yes, he does.
All of these heroes have mana concerns. Udyr does not.
Nassus does indeed have a massive ability to keep himself in a lane for a very long time. However, it becomes problematic as he stocks Q up and runs into the problem of having a very low mana pool (much like veigar -- even with mp/5 blues).
Olaf is a lackluster solo laner.
mmmhmmm, he does indeed. HEY! Did you hear what happened to Nidalee? Do you think WW is immune to their radar?
Another lackluster solo laner.
A terrible example of sustain. It is no where near the amount of Udyr/Nassus/Warwick. lol
Really.
Do you honestly believe you have more in depth knowledge of this game than the people who play it as a career?
You keep talking about how Udyr has this itty bitty measly little shield and yet forget to talk about his Q.
And yet he is continually used OVER those ranged attack-dash champions in world series tournaments. Why oh why is this?
Pfft, they're just stupid passive playing cock suckers who don't *reallly* know the inner workings of Udyr. Because you know, you just have to know how to counter him, or you're bad.
I guess that goes for all the 2k+ as well?
Aaaaand Riot doesn't like passive gameplay. So his W will be changed/nerfed, regardless of what inner strategic thinking you have to do to bait out his shield.
Do you remember when they did this?
They'll do it again.
Who says I want passive laning? Have you even been reading these posts at all?
The point of this Udyr discussion was the fact that he is able to infinite sustain which in turn causes passive gameplay.
It is! Oh and did you hear? They're changing that whole sustain class of champions. So they can't, you know, sustain and create passive gameplay.
HERE - WE - GO!
vlad argument
You brought up that shit about having sooooo much more experience than me and how I have noooo idea what I'm talking about.
I finished it.
I agree! He's a very unique champion that is loads of fun to play.
Wait.. what? Is this replying to my vlad convo? What do you mean it doesn't make it any less valid?
Udyr has a speed buff stun, massive nuke, and the ability to regen hp and mana upon auto attacks. Of course W isn't comparable to sanguine pool, you're being ridiculous. I'm comparing the ability to stay in the lane forever and still dish out a mass amount of damage.
Yes, he does.
All of these heroes have mana concerns. Udyr does not.
Nassus does indeed have a massive ability to keep himself in a lane for a very long time. However, it becomes problematic as he stocks Q up and runs into the problem of having a very low mana pool (much like veigar -- even with mp/5 blues).
Olaf is a lackluster solo laner.
mmmhmmm, he does indeed. HEY! Did you hear what happened to Nidalee? Do you think WW is immune to their radar?
Another lackluster solo laner.
A terrible example of sustain. It is no where near the amount of Udyr/Nassus/Warwick. lol
Really.
Mana concerns. He's not very tanky either. :/
Do you honestly believe you have more in depth knowledge of this game than the people who play it as a career?
You keep talking about how Udyr has this itty bitty measly little shield and yet forget to talk about his Q.
And yet he is continually used OVER those ranged attack-dash champions in world series tournaments. Why oh why is this?
Pfft, they're just stupid passive playing cock suckers who don't *reallly* know the inner workings of Udyr. Because you know, you just have to know how to counter him, or you're bad.
I guess that goes for all the 2k+ as well?
Aaaaand Riot doesn't like passive gameplay. So his W will be changed/nerfed, regardless of what inner strategic thinking you have to do to bait out his shield.
Do you remember when they did this?
Code:
Turtle Stance:
- Reduced the mana restore to 6/7/8/9/10% from 12/14/16/18/20%.They'll do it again.
Who says I want passive laning? Have you even been reading these posts at all?
The point of this Udyr discussion was the fact that he is able to infinite sustain which in turn causes passive gameplay.
It is! Oh and did you hear? They're changing that whole sustain class of champions. So they can't, you know, sustain and create passive gameplay.
Legato.Reborn-
Member
Halycon said:
And Haly does in one sentence what I've been unable to do on this entire page (probably because I suck shit at explaining things).
2th, Udyr's combination of lethal Q damage with an active shield that passively restores health and mana with yet another ability to move speed buff with stun makes him a very lethal opponent that far outclasses other champions in the lane.
It's the entire kit that makes him so dangerous.
Mister Wilhelm
Member
I am gonna miss the shit out of Kog when this rotation ends. Thinking about buying him even though he's still 975 RP.
What I like the most about him is how I can play defensively and still get kills. On top of that, even if my team sucks I can hang back and pick off kills with his ult all day.
If Kog wasn't so squishy, he'd be my favorite character by far.
Legato.Reborn-
Member
y2dvd said:
Send a ticket to support, I think they can fix that.
Mister Wilhelm said:
I am gonna miss the shit out of Kog when this rotation ends. Thinking about buying him even though he's still 975 RP.
What I like the most about him is how I can play defensively and still get kills. On top of that, even if my team sucks I can hang back and pick off kills with his ult all day.
If Kog wasn't so squishy, he'd be my favorite character by far.
this is with AP kogmaw I hope.
Legato.Reborn-
Member
Ultimoo said:
Why do you have such a boner for AP kogmaw.
Jazzy Network
Member
Because he's bad.
Halycon said:
So no other champion has a skillset that makes them powerful? could have sworn a full stun tibbers combo from annie was pretty lethal and annoying.
The main issue most people are forgetting is that LoL is basically rock paper scissors. Every champion is good versus some champions and weak vs others. I find it funny that no one here seems to want to address any of udyrs weaknesses other than me.
Legato.Reborn- said:
1) Vlad argument doesnt work... RANGED low CDR health restore vs melee lifesteal. You keep udyr off creeps he cant life steal. you are pretty good at ignoring things it seems.
2) How does me not caring about my elo have anything to do with my experience. I dont play much ranked anymore. I have more experience than you in ranked. i have probably a ton more games played than you cause of all my arams, unless you do a shit load of custom games too. SO you havent finished anything and you still dont know what you are talking about.
3) at least we agree he is fun
4) You said that me saying udyr being on the chopping block because people bitch and moan and dont learn is the same thing that has been said about every other champion that goes to the chopping block.
5) No he doesnt have infinite sustain. He has the potential for it yes but if you keep him off the creeps he has nothing.
Nasus: You assume he is going to farm up his Q all the time, which they dont have to. Sure it isnt the wisest move to not farm siphoning strike but you can do it. His sustain is there. And in fact was just recently buffed.
Olaf: You say he is lackluster but you dont say why? he has lifesteal he has a nuke and he has range... what makes him so much weaker than udyr? you bait out turtle shield and harass him then you have no problem with udyr... at least olaf can still harass with range. Basically the only thing Udyr has that olaf doesnt is a low CD shield with some mana restore... oh wait you are trading sustain for damage and range. yeah trade offs. totally forgot this game was rock paper scissors... wait no i didnt. I have said that before.
WW: never said he wasnt on their radar. he has already been nerfed though. As for nidalee... she was never a huge issue really. she has some sustain and then gets melted in a team fight the moment she goes into cougar form. must be one of them trade offs i have mentioend before
Xin: see above about Olaf. There are trade offs.
Gragas: used to emphasize a point. Champs with good sustain are there. There are people that counter gragas sure but that is the same for every champion. Rock paper scissors and all.
Shen: See above at Gragas.
Fiddle. if you want to spam abilities then sure you will have mana issues. want to lane against udyr? sit there and auto attack and farm for last hits. Udyr wants to fight you? Fear, darkwind, then drain after he stuns you. Not hard. you will do more damage than he can in one bear/tiger combo in a lane early game.
Tiger Damage: Will talk about later.But it really is not THAT great early on. I mean at level 1 is 30 +1.5(56) so all of 116 damage. Level 2 is 30 +1.5(59) for 118.5 damage. Level 3 is 174.5. Level 4 is 179. Level 5 is 233.5 damage. So pre level 6, in a lane udyr has a 233 damage, melee range nuke. Is it stronger than most casters nukes at level 5? Yes but its MELEE range. if we were to balance it to the level of Annies level 3 fireball that does 165 damage but scales off AP then udyr would be completely useless. The point being... he is melee. If you are letting him get in melee range that is your problem not the champions.
High elo play: yeah im saying they are idiots. You know why? Cause, as i have said before, they do the same fucking thing over and over again. Solo udyr/irelia/whatever the fuck you want up top, caster mid, beefy jungler, and ranged carry/support combo bot. They dont change this at all. You never see them put an ashe or caitlin top vs an udyr to just last hit while they sit out of range of udyr and when he does come up they just volley or net to slow udyr/move away. You never see that. You know why udyr solo top is so powerful? Because all the top elo guys, and i watch all their streams, are too fucking scared to change their gameplay and throw something different at udyr. They want to play the safe boring game. They dont run any risks. Is it really Udyr's fault that they wont change and just recently figured out he is a meat wall of sustain that works perfectly in their boring little strategies?
As for passive gameplay... could have sworn ive posted at least 2 or 3 times about how all high elo gameplay is passive as fuck. Im pretty sure i just mentioned it in this post too. Hmm... I wonder when you will actually address it with regards to high elo players.
Udyr promotes passive gameplay... well no fucking shit. He promotes it in himself. Laning against him doesnt mean you have to be passive. Though i have already said this before too. Udyr cant farm and get mana back if you pus him. But people are too afraid to push and thus the cycle continues. You seem to think Udyr is the only problem here when he is only a part of the greater problem.
Soraka: so she is getting changed tomorrow. Doesnt change the fact that she could do that same thing as udyr in a lane while being ranged.
Jazzy Network
Member
Ultimoo said:
You mad jelly.
2th said:
Wow, really? I mean, UDYR not being abusive?
BTW, Kassadin and Yi are countered by CC. One stun and they blow up. Udyr isn't.
Unless he's trollbuilding zero survivability (and even so, if given any amount of farm he will probably be able to escape) or is chain-hard-cc'd, which counters basically everyone outside of Irelia (and maybe Alistar), who in any case is LoL's poster child of dreadful design together with Vladimir (EDIT: and Nocturne, and possibly Jarvan IV).
red_13th said:
One stun kills a glass cannon Melee DPS with an attack speed, movement speed, and attack damage steroid, who also has a ranged gap closer, who doenst usually build tanky? Wow. That is totally surprising. I would never have guessed a champion who can kill super fast would be so fragile. I think that is enough sarcasm to get the point across that each champion has their strengths and weaknesses, so i wont even bother doing Kassadin. But ill ask you this, when was the last time you saw an Udyr 2 or 3 shot any champion?
Also in case no one has ever paid attention, i have never said Udyr isnt very strong. I know he is very strong. But i do not think he is this massively OP beast everyone, including the riot forums on this, complains about. He could use some nerfing sure, id just put him back to the higher early game mana costs and see where it goes from there. I say this because it wasnt till they decreased his mana costs that you really saw any lane udyrs or had people bitching about him nearly anywhere like how they bitch about him now. Also, if i know how to counter Udyr then you would think other people might figure it out too.
Where does Annie come into this? If you want to talk about combos then Annie is an example of a hero that forces aggressive play in order to bring her down before she gets her ult. There are few champions that can stand against a competent Annie once she's 6.2th said:
Udyr, on the other hand, gets no win button at level 6. So he's harder to balance relative to other heroes. Make him scale too fast and he'll outpace everyone, scale too slow and he's useless. His Turtle Stance is one of the main reasons people play conservative against him, so Riot is going to nerf that. In order to compensate, they should buff early game tiger, phoenix and bear. Whether they do so is another matter.
Udyr's main weakness is his kiteability. But that is his only weakness and champs need at least one or two weak points. He has everything else: a stun, a shield, build in life steal, built in attack speed (from tiger and his passive), built in movement buff (bear and passive). He can carry, he can tank, he can lane, he can jungle and he does well in all these areas.
Halycon said:
annie comes in because you said turtle coupled with Udyrs whole kit makes him powerful... i merely said "well no shit his entire kit is what makes him a strong champion, the kit is what defines a champion period so you cant just say that about udyr" but in not so many words. as for Udyrs only weakeness being that you can kit him? Well he has no ranged attacks at all when literally every single other champion in the game has at least 1 ranged or aoe skill. Also the lack of an ult to win button is a bit of a weakness if you will. It just means it takes Udyr longer to kill people.
Dance In My Blood said:
do you remember which one because i dont think i saw that game. Anyways, annie rapes udyr at level unless the annie is completely incompetent.
Legato.Reborn-
Member
Dance In My Blood said:
The Rain Man
But as you know, that Annie didn't know how to counter him because she was bad.
I don't even know how she got into IEM. I mean all you have to do is keep Udyr off the creeps.
Legato.Reborn-
Member
2th said:
My god..
Mister Wilhelm
Member
Ultimoo said:
I build meki > chalice > sorcerer's boots > ages > witch hat > more witches hats
Also, LOL isn't recording my matches from tonight anymore either.
2th said:
You say CC counters Udyr.
I disagree and show examples of champions who are truly countered by CC.
Then you reply pointing those champions have their own strengths, which I never say they didn't and isn't in any way relevant to the point they are far more vulnerable to CC than a fucking tank DPS.
...yeah, this is a pointless discussion. Just ignore the fact that I even posted anything here.
Legato.Reborn- said:
you know... im still waiting on you to give me a reason why keeping udyr off creeps isnt easy. or prove why Udyr is better than every single champion in the game. In fact ill be nice and list you a few champs who, if played smart, will beat udyr in a lane.
Caitlyn, Ashe, Vayne, Trist, Teemo, Brand, Nasus, Morganna
That should get you going.
Also something i havent seen mentioned, and honestly i should have before, is that for Udyr to use turtle effectively he has to keep auto attacking. He cannot just last hit otherwise he wont be getting shit for health or mana back.
These champions (Nasus excluded) will beat just about any other melee hero in a lane 1v1.2th said:
However, few teams will have Cait, Ashe, Vayne, Trist and Morgana solo top. Even fewer will have Teemo in any role at all as he's pretty shitty in the current metagame. Brand is a threat, I agree, but he's a threat against any melee hero 1v1. Nasus is a joke.
Udyr, even disregarding his laning abilities, is still one of the better melee heroes currently in the game.
red_13th said:
you didnt give any examples of anything really. You said one stun kills squishy AD with no survivability, one stun kills squishy assassin anti mage caster with no survivability. You even said they have no survivability So of course one stun will wreck them. I mean i could have gone into detail and talked about whether the stun was before or after alpha strike or rift walk, or if the yi was AP and thus maxed meditate over wuju style so unless you kill him before he meditates or silence him while he is meditating you more than likely wont kill him and a number of other situations where a single stun does not equal death. but it doesnt really matter because you used glass cannons as your example and Udyr isnt a glass cannon.
the fact of the matter is that if you CC udyr you can kill him. doesnt even have to be chain CC. And i had this massive example of all the different situations in which an udyr can die to a single CC but i dont give a fuck anymore about it. Any champion can die to a single stun or silence or knockup... Udyr isnt god. Hard to kill yes, but all he has is running fast for mobility.
As for Vlad, ali and irelia.... Irelia is the only person who gets CC reduction with people around. She is also the only champion that deals true damage in each hit when her skill is active. Ali is a disruptive cow that is hard to kill... he ults and then takes 75% reduced damage for a time. In comparison that is pa lot better than turtle shield. Vlad gets sanguine pool and wow... learn to silence him and you have no issues. Hell ignite him and he melts. So yeah chain CC still works on them but they can still die to a single form of CC. all it takes are the right conditions.
Halycon said:
So wait... if those champs will beat just about any other melee hero in a lane 1v1 are you saying they cannot beat udyr? Cause if that is what you mean then i disagree and why they can beat udyr in a lane should be pretty obvious. If that isnt what you were saying then i guess we have just agreed that Udyr can be beaten in a lane.
As for cait, ashe, vayne, trist of morganna being solo top... it isnt Udyrs fault that people wont have these champions go against him in a lane. So again i ask how does this make udyr broken if people wont have a champion that can beat him in a lane actually lane against him?
No sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that those heroes far outclass any form of melee (except for #1 Morde)
You're not going to ask that Riot change the current state of competitive LoL in order to avoid tweaking Udyr, are you?
The current metagame (as far as I know/care), puts the ranged AD bot with support, AD or AP carry in mid, and some kind of beefy sustainable melee at top. That's how the game is currently being played, and that's what Riot is balancing for. When/If this configuration gets replaced by something else, and Udyr becomes less of a popular pick, people will stop complaining about him. Until then, he's a potential issue and Riot will tweak/nerf him.
You're not going to ask that Riot change the current state of competitive LoL in order to avoid tweaking Udyr, are you?
Mister Wilhelm
Member
Ultimoo said:
What would you put in that slot?
Blizzard said:
Maybe. I've never had a game go past one witch hat, I just buy a NLR and go to it from there.
Boken said:
Never said he wasnt one of the strongest sustain laners in the game. Maybe you should read more.
Halycon said:
No i am not asking Riot change competitive LoL to avoid tweaking Udyr. I know he is strong. I have never argued that he isnt strong. I have merely said he isnt this massively OP monster people make him out to be. He can be countered and you agree with me.
The issue is the metagame. Basically what ends up happening with the metagame is that a bunch of 1800 to 2200 elo players (so like maybe waht? 500 to 1000 people) come up with the metagame and then it trickles down and people start using it and are like OMG FREE WINS VS NOOBS WITH THIS!!! Then champions get nerfed and all because a few people came up with something and everyone else is too fucking stupid to counter it and are more concerned with the easy win. Its a stupid cycle that does nothing more than have people picking the Flavor of the Week/Month and bleeding that well dry. I mean hell, give people some more time, and maybe some incentive to not be stagnant in their gameplay, and lane Udyr will go away and the champion will be left in the jungles where he belongs without even having to change him. This is of course assuming people use their brains and are willing to stop being cowards and playing the boring passive game.
Owlowiscious
Member
I don't really want to get into this, but I want to know the stances here. Is 2th saying Udyr is not OP and Legato saying Udyr is OP?
SouthernDragon
Member
Actually, what you guys don't realize is that 2th is playing one of the worst melee champs in the game, and it's 2th's sheer skill that makes him look OP.
Honestly, Renekton >>>>>>>>>>>>> Udyr, really. It's just how it is.
Honestly, Renekton >>>>>>>>>>>>> Udyr, really. It's just how it is.
Maybe I don't want to read your stupid wall of text where you compare stats on sustainabilty mechanisms in attempt to show that Udyr isn't that good. Even listing Olaf's vicious strikes LOL.2th said:
Olaf the sustain laner. Olaf is a great laner right 2th? I bet you think he's almost as good as Udyr.
Just so you know, ranged carry top does not counter sustain top.
And of course I'd recommend AD Kogmaw Neki, it's so much stronger.
Owlowiscious said:
Not exactly, I know he is strong. He needs a nerf but personally i think all they need to do is jack his mana costs back up to where it was like 65 or 70 mana at level 1. You rarely saw a lane udyr back then because the higher mana costs meant that at level 1 you got 3 stances changes from full mana and 4 at level 2. In other words his sustain was less back then.
As for Legato, he is saying Udyr is an unstoppable beast.
Boken said:
1) comparing sustain mechanisms shows the difference between udyr and other champions and what the trade off for having better sustain is vs high damage is. Apparently you are dumb.
2) A ranged carry like ashe, cait, or vayne and and will beat Udyr top. Udyr wants to run at an shahe, you volley and laugh as he is slow and you keep hurting him. Vayne, you tumble or knock him back. Cait, you use your net to slow him while you are knocked back nicely and laugh as you keep hitting him. So yeah... you are wrong.
I agree with most of that. I don't think Udyr is the second coming of release Xin, but I do think he needs some adjustment. Riot recently nerfed a bunch of lane sustain champs they suspected were contributing to passive play (vlad, alistair, warwick, irelia are the ones I remember), and now their attention settled on Udyr. He was always pretty good at sustained laning, but this strat only recently gained popularity among the playerbase.
So yeah it's a FOTM reaction, but that doesn't mean Udyr hasn't had it coming for a while. Right now he's above average to great in nearly all roles, now he will just be average in one of those roles. I think that's a reasonable goal, assuming Riot can attain it without hurting him too much.
So yeah it's a FOTM reaction, but that doesn't mean Udyr hasn't had it coming for a while. Right now he's above average to great in nearly all roles, now he will just be average in one of those roles. I think that's a reasonable goal, assuming Riot can attain it without hurting him too much.
SouthernDragon
Member
JWong said:
Hell, I once bought 10 of one rune. 10. How useless.
Halycon said:
I think the only roll he is above average is right now is his lane sustain. As i have said, increase the cost on his stances to where they were pre lowering and you will solve one of the biggest issues. That is until udyr hits like level 5 and has 3 levesl in turtle but at that point he wont be doing much damage if he has one level in tiger for 116 damage and one level in bear to stun and run. If he doesnt get bear and has 2 levels in tiger he can do a whole 118.5 damage. which still isnt a huge deal and if, with the higher mana costs, you let him farm enough to maintain most of his mana then honestly you deserve to lose at that point since you arent harassing him since he shouldnt be able to spam turtle as much as with these lower mana costs.
He is the only champion that has no Ult. Nidalee gets a new skillset in cougar form and Karma gets heals, aoe damage shield, and double slow/speed with her spells thanks to her passive ult. So keeping Udyr beefy and letting him do good damage at melee range is an acceptable trade. I mean he has no ranged attacks at all, and as i have said before, he is literally the only champion in the game that has no ranged or aoe attacks (phoenix doesnt count because the damage off phoenix is 15 / 25 / 35 / 45 / 55 per wave so all of 75/125/175/225/275 for the entire 5 seconds and it is still melee range almost and no one gets level 5 of phoenix.
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