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[dimb]

lemme just throw an exhaust on you son and you'll be useless in no time.

Three Zeals > One Exhaust.

 

[Boken]

Power Without Gameplay
This is when we give a big benefit in a way that players don't find satisfying or don't notice. The classic example of this is team benefit Auras. In general, other players don't value the aura you give them very much, and you don't value it much either -- even though auras can win games. As a REALLY general example, I would say that players value a +50 armor aura only about twice as much as a +10 armor aura... Even though +50 is 5x better. Another example would be comparing a +10 damage aura to a skill that every 10 seconds gives flaming weapons that make +30 damage to all teammates next attack (with fire and explosions!). I am pretty sure that most players are WAY more excited about the fiery weapons buff, even though the strength is lower overall.

The problem with using a "power without gameplay" mechanic is that you tend to have to 'over-buff' the mechanic and create a game balance problem before people appreciate it. As a result, we tend to keep Auras weak, and/or avoid them altogether, and/or pair them on an active/passive where the active is very strong and satisfying, so that the passive is more strategic around character choice. For example, Sona's auras are all quite weak -- because at weak values they ARE appreciated properly.

wtf nooooo what is this crazy subjective reasoning

No sadly, this part is true. Passive stat buff auras rarely get noticed. Use for example Sona, the only time you notice that she has done something for you is when she heals you, when she gives you the movement speed buff. But nobody notices the extra AD, the extra MRes or Armor. An aura only champion with balanced auras would feel so unappreciated by the team. Essentially RioT is arguing that power needs to come with a gameplay element - an active or a visual effect. This is fine. It also adds to the game being more watchable.

Burden of Knowledge
This is a VERY common pattern amongst hardcore novice game designers. This pattern is when you do a complex mechanic that creates gameplay -- ONLY IF the victim understands what is going on. Rupture is a great example -- with Rupture in DOTA, you receive a DOT that triggers if you, the victim, choose to move. However, you have no way of knowing this is happening unless someone tells you or unless you read up on it online... So the initial response is extreme frustration. We believe that giving the victim counter gameplay is VERY fun -- but that we should not place a 'burden of knowledge' on them figuring out what that gameplay might be. That's why we like Dark Binding and Black Shield (both of which have bait and/or 'dodge' counter gameplay that is VERY obvious), but not Rupture, which is not obvious.

What?! NO! If someone uses a DoT on me that triggers as I move, I'm going to figure it out 2 or 3 deaths later, AT MOST. If I notice that massive damage occurs as I move, I'm going to stop moving. For christ's sake have some faith in your player base.

Ok I will accept for a moment that players are retarded... This could be solved with UI improvements - allow tooltips in the death recount. This way a player could see that this move called Rupture did 1000 damage to them and they, not knowing what it does can mouseover and find out themselves that "running = damage". And then require death recount to open by default so people will have to see that rupture did 90% damage to them. Alternately you can also have information of the champions in the current game accessible during gameplay.

However, Riot have failed their burden of knowledge philosophy in Karthus - I've killed him but why the hell is still doing damage to me and killing me????

" We believe that giving the victim counter gameplay is VERY fun"
Sigh. I agree with this a lot but RioT rarely implements it. The few instances of victim counter gameplay I can think of on the top of my head: (1) Karma leash, (2) Zilean bombs (somewhat) (3) Zilean ult (4) Caitlyn Ult (5) Morgana Ult (6) Sion Shield (until you can't break his shield anymore) (7) Nocturne Fear.
This is quite a pathetic list for something they think is VERY fun. Take rupture for example. We can turn it into a mechanic less burdensome on knowledge. 600 range leash that deals damage to the target if they break it! Since they can see that they take a huge spike of damage when the leash breaks, it's very obvious why they took the damage. Speaking of which, I want a Puck like champion in LoL.

Unclear Optimization
This is a more subtle one. when players KNOW they've used a spell optimally, they feel really good. An example is disintegrate on Annie. When you kill a target and get the mana back, you know that you used it optimally, and this makes the game more fun. On the other hand, some mechanics are so convoluted, or have so many contrary effects, that it is not possible to 'off the cuff' analyze if you played optimally, so you tend not to be satisfied. A good example of this is Proudmoore's ult in DOTA where he drops a ship. The ship hits the target a bit in the future, dealing a bunch of damage and some stun to enemies. Allies on the other hand get damage resistance and bonus move speed, but damage mitigated comes up later. Very complicated! And almost impossible to know if you have used it optimally -- do you really want your squishies getting into the AOE? Maybe! Maybe not... It's really hard to know that you've used this skill optimally and feel that you made a 'clutch' play, because it's so hard to tell, and there are so many considerations you have to make. On the other hand, with Ashe's skill shot, if you hit the guy who was weak and running, you know you did it right... You also know you did it right if you slowed their entire team... Ditto on Ezreal's skill shot.

So basically RioT doesn't like complicated mechanics. Sounds like a lame cop out. The complexity of a move isn't a downside RioT. They're basing this conclusion on the assumption that you must optimise every mechanic in a move for it to be successful. This is logically flawed because success isn't internal to the move itself. A complicated move just lends itself to being used multiple ways. Let the player decide which way they want to use it for and whether or not they did that optimally. Take for example Proudmoores ult. If I want to stun the entire opponents team and not care about buffing my team, sure I should be allowed to do that. If the team fight has already started and the enemy team is too spread out while mine is stacked then I could just buff my team. Complexity isn't a crutch, RioT.

Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun
Anti-fun is the negative experience your opponents feel when you do something that prevents them from 'playing their game' or doing activities they consider fun. While everything useful you can do as a player is likely to cause SOME anti-fun in your opponents, it only becomes a design issue when the 'anti-fun' created on your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. Dark Binding is VERY favorable on this measurement, because opponents get clutch dodges just like you get clutch hits, so it might actually create fun on both sides, instead of fun on one and weak anti-fun on another. On the other hand, a strong mana burn is NOT desirable -- if you drain someone to 0 you feel kinda good, and they feel TERRIBLE -- so the anti-fun is exceeded by the fun. This is important because the goal of the game is for players to have fun, so designers should seek abilities that result in a net increase of fun in the game. Basic design theory, yes?

I dunno, I feel pretty damn amazing whenever I know their caster has 0 mana, it lets me know that I've contributed to my team in a meaningful way by removing a source of CC and damage burst from the fight. Why are so many of these conjectures based on SUBJECTIVE measures?

I agree with RioT on the strong mana burn point though. Mainly because it way too strong in LoL where everybody is very dependant on their skills. And sure, anti-fun shouldn't be allowed to exceed two times the amount of fun. But I don't know, this point sounds very subjective and is really a mixture of different things.

False Choice -- Deceptive Wrong Choice
This is when you present the player with one or more choices that appear to be valid, but one of the choices is just flat wrong. An example of this is an ability we had in early stages recently. It was a wall like Karthus' wall, but if you ran into it, it did damage to you, and then knocked you towards the caster. In almost every case, this is a false choice -- because you just shoudln't go there ever. If it was possible for the character to do a knockback to send you into the wall, it wouldn't be as bad. Anyhow, there's no reason to give players a choice that is just plain bad -- the Tomb of Horrors (original module) is defined by false choices -- like the room with three treasure chests, all of which have no treasure and lethal traps.

??? Terrible example. No one is going to think running into an enemy wall is a good idea, and it shouldn't be!

Yes, terrible example. Terrible Terrible Terrible example. TERRIBLE. Jesus christ Riot I had a brain aneurysm reading that and thinking how could an intelligent human being even make that argument.
(1) the equation is not equal. "almost every case" is not the same as "every case"
(2) it is nearly impossible to make a mechanic where every single choice is ALWAYS wrong. Take for example the wall that deals damage and knocks you towards the caster. Lets say you're a melee champion who wants to get into range. Let's say the caster is running away and you want to catch up. Lets say the caster is on the safe side of the team fight. bla bla.
(3)Skills should beneficial to the team that cast it. Conversely, offensive skills should be a detriment to the other team. So it is sound design when 80% of the choices the enemy team can make with respect to your skill are false choices. The 20% left over is where victim counter gameplay kicks in.
(4) Victim counter gameplay is fun remember? Choice is part of counter gameplay. And that is my main point.


TL;DR - WHERES MY VICTIM COUNTER GAMEPLAY RIOT?

 

[Haly]

Let me tell you about how I shatter backboards on Yi.

The movement speed from your ult is more than enough to keep up with most heroes while attacking.

Any more is redundant.

 

[markot]

Is there any character thats like clockwork in dota2 (I liked him from the tournament >.<)

 

[SouthernDragon]

Fucking AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I love you guys, but sometimes I want to rip out your kidneys aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[Haly]

Is there any character thats like clockwork in dota2 (I liked him from the tournament >.<)

No, I think Amumu is the closest you'll get (tank/initiation with a skillshot stun and messes people up and kills with AoE).

Riot would classify Clockwork/Pharoh as anti-fun.

 

[Uchip]

No, I think Amumu is the closest you'll get (tank/initiation with a skillshot stun and messes people up and kills with AoE).

Riot would classify Clockwork/Pharoh as anti-fun.

hes more like jarvan really
nobody has a spammable global though

 

[Blizzard]

Level 26 solo queue game, someone disconnects for the first 5-10 minutes, comes back, we lose due to everyone (or maybe just me) being terrible. I was trying Ryze.

Second solo queue game, someone quits after 5-10 minutes, after complaining about lag. I thought that was supposed to be rare at higher levels. >_> I was trying Veigar. I've heard Janna's voice is even MORE annoying?!

I finally had a decent game as Caitlyn after that, though.

At least one of those kills was stolen since I didn't want Ezreal to get away and kinda stole it when he would have died. I hate Ezreal and want him dead at all times, though.

If I had more money/time, what recommendations are there for next items? Replace Doran's with Infinity Edge, or would some awesome defensive item (which?) be better? Replace the shoes with another phantom dancer or another bloodthirster? I'd lose health and/or movement speed with those changes, though...

 

[Haly]

hes more like jarvan really
nobody has a spammable global though

Spammable global is anti-fun

Yeah now that I think about it Jarven might be a closer match. I was focusing too much on his ult.

If I had more money/time, what recommendations are there for next items? Replace Doran's with Infinity Edge, or would some awesome defensive item (which?) be better? Replace the shoes with another phantom dancer or another bloodthirster? I'd lose health and/or movement speed with those changes, though...

Infinite Edge.

 

[Blizzard]

Spammable global is anti-fun

I'm afraid I'd agree. Having to worry about Twisted Fate or Pantheon appearing all game was bad enough. Having to worry about Ashe arrows and Lux ults and Ezreal ults is annoying. Having to worry about Gangplank ults is irritating.

Having Karthus ult everyone seemingly every time he dies is bloody annoying.

 

[dimb]

I'm afraid I'd agree. Having to worry about Twisted Fate or Pantheon appearing all game was bad enough. Having to worry about Ashe arrows and Lux ults and Ezreal ults is annoying. Having to worry about Gangplank ults is irritating.

Having Karthus ult everyone seemingly every time he dies is bloody annoying.

Ashe arrow is all skill. It is one of the most fun things in the game to hit, and it feels good to see one whiz by you if you're on the receiving end.

The movement speed from your ult is more than enough to keep up with most heroes while attacking.

Any more is redundant.

Man you guys are so serious sometimes. I don't know how to make it more obvious I'm joking.

 

[SouthernDragon]

AAAAAAA ADRENALINE

 

[IsayFever]

So did you guys see that Normal Draft Pick is incoming?

 

[Uchip]

So did you guys see that Normal Draft Pick is incoming?

about bloody time

 

[markot]

Soooo....

What kind of stats thingy should I go for with Teemo >.>?

 

[IsayFever]

Soooo....

What kind of stats thingy should I go for with Teemo >.>?

Depends on how you want to build him. He can go either massive on hit with Malady / Madred's Bloodrazor / Frozen Mallet. Or you can go with Ability Power based items for your mushroom damage + Q damage which is basically just heavy AP / Magic Pen

 

[Neki]

hes more like jarvan really
nobody has a spammable global though

lux ult is pretty global and spammable, amirite.

p.s boken sucks at laning

 

[Kozak]

I like the new gold counter. It really shows why you're team failed.

 

[Neki]

this game should be really called league of farming instead of league of legends, amirite?

 

[Achtius]

league of feeding. oh wait, that's just eve and sivir.

 

[sikkinixx]

does someone want the code given away at PAX? It's for Sivir, and a Sivir PAX skin. I dunno what the fuck that means but if someone wants it, it's theirs. Just quote this.

 

[Achtius]

does someone want the code given away at PAX? It's for Sivir, and a Sivir PAX skin. I dunno what the fuck that means but if someone wants it, it's theirs. Just quote this.

Can I have?

 

[sikkinixx]

Can I have?

All yours. I'll PM it.

 

[Achtius]

All yours. I'll PM it.

Thanks <3

 

[Boken]

FUCK. NOOOoooooo Sivirrr.

 

[Neki]

achtius doesn't even play sivir, lol.

 

[markot]

Can you hot key the items in your backpack >.>?

 

[LCGeek]

Zeal is a late game item, it's never really useful by itself during the early game on any hero. In contrast both Sheen and Brutalizer are cheap choices for early game damage that provide a hefty boost in damage to many AD/Hybrid champions. By the time you would actually want to build Zeal, it will only be to turn it into a Phantom Dancer or Triforce.

Also you shouldn't put too much stock into the recommended item builds. They work, but a lot of them have iffy choices that seem to be different for the sake of being different.

Zeal is most def an early game item. Before vayne nerfs that was easily one of the first two items you built considering it goes in to triforce. Someone who just mentioned Yi has a point if it's not one of your first items as well in the first 16 you're wasting potential. Is it a must no but in some builds where ms is king this and runes make disgustingly quick.

Yes if you're intention is to damage by all means get better early games items. If you have a heavy skill shot team that is slow as crap abuse it as a zeal and lvl2 boots early game will ensure you zig zag through anything they throw at you.

lux ult is pretty global and spammable, amirite.

p.s boken sucks at laning

Hope that was joke.

Whoever was talking about broke global ults is forgetting the following.

Ashe
Shen
Ezrael
Soraka

All who still when played right are quite hard to stop.

 

[shintoki]

Level 26 solo queue game, someone disconnects for the first 5-10 minutes, comes back, we lose due to everyone (or maybe just me) being terrible. I was trying Ryze.

Second solo queue game, someone quits after 5-10 minutes, after complaining about lag. I thought that was supposed to be rare at higher levels. >_> I was trying Veigar. I've heard Janna's voice is even MORE annoying?!

JANNA IS A BEAUTIFUL WOMAN WHO IS PERFECT IN EVERY WAY! >_<

If you are 26, your still in low levels. Most of players I seem to get stuck with playing in my normal rank games, have an ELO in rank normally in the 1500-1600. Not particularly high, but you still get many quitters and whiners. Though they are a lot less frequent for me now.

 

[undu]

Can you hot key the items in your backpack >.>?

They already are: numbers 1 to 6, don't know if the hotkeys can be changed.

 

[Achtius]

I think you can change it in "key binding" option.

 

[Haly]

Man you guys are so serious sometimes. I don't know how to make it more obvious I'm joking.

Master Yi.

Serious Business.

 

[eznark]

MLG finals over already?

 

[dimb]

MLG finals over already?

Looks like it, they streamed at least one game earlier today that was pretty good where CLG won, looks like they took the tournament.

 

[2th]

Looks like it, they streamed at least one game earlier today that was pretty good where CLG won, looks like they took the tournament.

yeah CLG won. Want to see the replays though badly.

 

[Blizzard]

achtius doesn't even play sivir, lol.

Not only that, but other people such as myself and someone in the PAX thread were offering to pay for it, and Achtius was complaining in the thread AND ingame about Sivir. There is no justice in the world.

(Feep got a $7.50 game for his code since he's a nice guy)

 

[Achtius]

lol Blizzard is ganging up on me

But free skin is free I'll try using her now! And hopefully NOT get owned by Malz with her build in spell shield

Thanks again sikkinixx

edit: since blizzard is bitching about it in game about me stealing someone else code, if Rayven can remove the skin from my account and give it to someone, I would be happy to give it up.

 

[dimb]

yeah CLG won. Want to see the replays though badly.

CLG was running a Lee Sin tank earlier today that was just crazy. Soaked up so much damage.

 

[red13th]

Does anyone have another PAX Sivir skin code, I'd be willing to pay too.

 

[Blizzard]

lol Blizzard is ganging up on me

But free skin is free I'll try using her now! And hopefully NOT get owned by Malz with her build in spell shield

Thanks again sikkinixx

edit: since blizzard is bitching about it in game about me stealing someone else code, if Rayven can remove the skin from my account and give it to someone, I would be happy to give it up.

I thought I said that I was NOT asking you to trade the code, just that there were like 3 people in the PAX thread waiting, and since you were complaining constantly about Eve and Sivir, it would be nice if you would complain a little less in the future after using Sivir yourself. Please. Sorry if I was a jerk. :/

 

[Achtius]

Whatever, I just pm Rayven to see if he can do anything about it (i.e. removing it from my account and give it to someone else).

 

[red13th]

That skin is the best Sivir skin IMO. I wanted to give it to my boyfriend, our 6th anniversary is on Thursday and he used to main Sivir. He even made up a backstory for her, she was married to Swain and their children were the yordles (Teemo Poppy Tristana etc). Kogmaw was their dog (those were all the characters he owned). That was right when Swain was released but man it feels like it was just yesterday!

If anyone wants to sell a code PM me please!

 

[Blizzard]

On a different note, there was something I was thinking yesterday. Riot has all those "anti-fun" rules, and it's great that they want to keep the game easily accessible, and they want to make it fun.

But, surely I'm not the only one who hardly ever feels like people are having fun? If you're crushing the other team it can be fun, or playing easy bots, but otherwise even if you're winning it seems like it's an enormous struggle and teammates always think other teammates should be doing better.

I almost feel like joke theme teams are more fun, since everyone is laughing and trying funny strategies.

 

[LCGeek]

On a different note, there was something I was thinking yesterday. Riot has all those "anti-fun" rules, and it's great that they want to keep the game easily accessible, and they want to make it fun.

But, surely I'm not the only one who hardly ever feels like people are having fun? If you're crushing the other team it can be fun, or playing easy bots, but otherwise even if you're winning it seems like it's an enormous struggle and teammates always think other teammates should be doing better.

I almost feel like joke theme teams are more fun, since everyone is laughing and trying funny strategies.

Anti Fun is a broken concept because enjoyment is subjective.

Riot claims things like perma stun are anti fun yet most here have basically had the games equiv done to them various time if not near perma stun at the minimum perma slow. You can do this with two characters having hard cc and them having exhaust. They totally pick choose what is fun for the whole community while letting some characters stay in op state in comparison to other characters in their class.

Teams lose as teams. Even in arranged I get in to bitching arguments with those I play with because when we should be pushing, taking dragon/baron, ward baiting, they think farming or tower turtling is the best. People have clear roles as guides and high ranked or skilled players show in vids if you aren't doing most of it you're team is basically more like to lose once you faced organized committed groups. LOL is full of tryhards without a way to organize those who can't organize like most try hards do.

 

[SouthernDragon]

I remember I was once knocked up by Alistar and Xin Zhao in quick succession, and was headbutted midair by Alistar.

It was funny watching Jarvan IV flying about, but I'm not entirely sure how that's different from a perma-stun. Not to mention that stun-lock is now impossible in DotA anyways. Thank goodness.

 

[Achtius]

If a person is stun twice, would the duration of the stun be additive or does duration get refreshed by the second stun (or duration doesn't change if the first stun have longer duration than 2nd stun)?

 

[Drkirby]

If a person is stun twice, would the duration of the stun be additive or does duration get refreshed by the second stun (or duration doesn't change if the first stun have longer duration than 2nd stun)?

Both stuns simply take place at the same time. If the second stun runs out before the first stun would of, it is just wasted.

 

[LCGeek]

I remember I was once knocked up by Alistar and Xin Zhao in quick succession, and was headbutted midair by Alistar.

It was funny watching Jarvan IV flying about, but I'm not entirely sure how that's different from a perma-stun. Not to mention that stun-lock is now impossible in DotA anyways. Thank goodness.

Perma stunning was exactly that. Basically you get people with bashers and it locks them in place add hard cc and inbetween bashers mini stun and hard stuns you can't do anything. Knockups allow for things but you are launched you are basically useless to the team until it stops. One reason you don't see a sheep stick or cyclone stick in LOL is that reason. If three teammates have that plus hard cc gg for most teams.

You know I love LOL but the broke elements will never sit with me because as someone in to the genre since dota early version it's stupid how they traded certain sets of broke systems for other more accessible ones.

Dr.Kirby is right about stuns. Never stack stuns let them come in a sequence if you want them to last for the duration of the stuns being combined.

 

[Boken]

Anti-Fun is something that when happens to you, just feels like complete and utter bullshit.

Like Troll Warlord when his stun used to stack with cranium bashers. Thats what they mean by perma stun. Perma-stun isnt chain cc. It's one champion being able to stunlock a target to death.

 

[Ark]

Is Lux a decent champion? I really enjoy playing Ashe but apparently so does everyone else, so I'm in reasonably dire need of a back-up. I'm about half-way to Lux in IP atm, saw the RiotGames Champion Spotlight video on YouTube and that pretty much had me sold, but I figured I'd ask here just incase there's anything I should know before I get the 3000 odd points I need.

That reminds me, whilst I love LoL, I'm seriously hating that most champions cost £6 each. I'm just not seeing it.

No doubt I'll cave in and buy some though :lol