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[Haly]

I think I stopped playing when Icefrog ditched the scene. Maybe a bit before.

Um, Icefrog is still working on Dota. That's kind of the whole point behind Dota 2. It's Icefrog, without the WC3 engine.

It's like saying SC2 is completely different from SC1, but it's not really different from its core mechanics even with immense unit changes.

Wait so which is SC2 and SC1 in your analogy here? DOTA2OTA? LoL Now:Lol Beta? LoLota?

Okay I read it some more and I think I understand what you mean.

But a more accurate analogy would be SC2 Beta/Release vs SC2 now. And any dedicated SC2 player can tell you that the metagame is pretty different. While your understanding of core mechanics still carries over, it doesn't mean that you fully grasp how strategies have changed since then, which is what I am focusing on. You're trying to argue with insufficient knowledge and experience. This is why your analyses seem so blatantly wrong to longtime Dota players. You sound like someone who played a few games of APEM back when people thought Clinkz was overpowered and suddenly think they know all there is to know about the game.

 

[dimb]

Take the ever-so-popular tanky dps archetype. Autoattack buff, defensive skill, gap closer. Seriously. Lee Sin, Leona, Trundle, Nasus, Jarvan IV, Renekton, Wukong, Xin, Jax, Yorick, Udyr... Are they really THAT different from oneanother?

This is a real thing that someone actually said?

 

[Haly]

This is a real thing that someone actually said?

I'd take out Leona (crap), Nasus (crap), Jarven (awesome), Yorick (crap) and add Irelia (awesome). But otherwise he's not far from the mark.

Similar tanky dps heroes are similar.

 

[2th]

I'd take out Leona (crap), Nasus (crap), Jarven (awesome), Yorick (crap) and add Irelia (awesome). But otherwise he's not far from the mark.

Similar tanky dps heroes are similar.

Nasus is actually a pretty good champion if you know what you are doing.

Spoiler

And he has been able to farm the hell out of his Q.

 

[Boken]

Look, no game is completely defensible. Sure, JWong seem’s like he hasn’t played DotA very much, but all you guys are doing is attacking LoL. DotA isn’t 100% perfect either. How about you guys try to come up with a list of negatives that exist in DotA?

so it's time for Ultimoo to chip in amirite?

U, chip in!

The free teleports back to base aren't a big deal. But what is a big deal is the complete inability to teleport to any tower on a 30-second cooldown. This encourages sitting in your own lane and makes the laning portion of the game much longer than DotA. It's also one of the most mind-numbing, boring parts of the game. You can't countergank. You can't teleport somewhere to farm. Teleporting out of a tight spot is significantly harder, if not impossible.

I think buyable teleport is interesting. Summoner teleport may have been a mistake, or they just never envisaged how strong flash would become. I think once all summoners are in line, summoner teleport makes buyable teleport redundant somewhat because the LoL map is so much smaller.

along with the fact that you do not lose gold when you die

While I miss this… I shudder to think how passive LoL would become if people truly feared dying. Since there is no courier/stash buy.

The addition of summoner skills makes ganging more difficult and doesn't help ganging as much as it should. Ghost, flash, exhaust, clairvoyance are all incredibly powerful tools that allow you to escape easily or prevent a gank outright.

That’s not true. Flash is met with flash. Defensive summoners are also easy to force. While it’s true that not every hero has flash in DotA, it’s not as bad as you make it sound.

Masteries seem shallow to me. "There are all these different possible trees," you might say, but it appears that there is generally one preferred talent tree spec. per hero that you'll want to take, so why not just add these benefits straight to the hero instead of being superficial and making things appear deep and complex? I am not convinced that masteries are an interesting mechanic at all.

This just isn’t true. (Unless you’re a ranged AD carry). WW has can have 4 different mastery pages. 1 for fastest jungling. 1 for slower jungling but better late game. 1 for tank lanewick. 1 for sustain lanewick.

Speaking of hero choices, what's with League's stale heroes? The majority of them share very, very similar qualities. Take the ever-so-popular tanky dps archetype. Autoattack buff, defensive skill, gap closer. Seriously. Lee Sin, Leona, Trundle, Nasus, Jarvan IV, Renekton, Wukong, Xin, Jax, Yorick, Udyr... Are they really THAT different from oneanother?

While it’s true that LoL’s champion mechanics are a little lacking, your examples are gross generalisations. And this is one of the sadder points to me. I want more varied mechanics RioT.

People say scaling skills are super cool in league, but scaling skills are a necessary consequence of the increased HP pool and inability to deny players gold. Unless your team is completely outplayed, [in DotA] your nukes are going to be useful on someone.

Wrong. RioT simply chose to move their stat system away from the WC3 engine. There’s no reason to be constrained by it anymore –DotA2 and HoN use it simply for legacy’s sake. You make the argument that scaling exists simply because of increased HP pools, then the damage levels should be similar to DotA. But they’re not. There is more damage flying around late game in LoL because of scaling. Anyway, scaling exists because there needs to be a counterpart to ‘attack damage’ for mage type champions.

Haly's a pretty cool dude.

Yes he is but…

Compare that to the LoL lanes, which are all equidistant from their respective towers. The only difference is that a typical blue -> red jungle path will take the Blue jungler to bot lane and the Red jungler to top lane. That is pretty much it.

This is wrong. Purple top lane has two locations he can be ganked from via the river (since the tower doesn’t cover the exit closest to his jungle. Similarly, Blue bottom lane has two locations where they can be ganked from via river.

When both sides have access to the exact same resource then how can it be overpowered?

Flash. *snicker*

Mathematically that makes sense, but in reality it is not true. When you have control over your opponents' level of growth through denying, this gives you a clear advantage in terms of money and experience that translates to more aggressive play. Even if both sides are evenly matched in terms of gold/exp growth, it doesn't mean the game is slower. On the contrary, if both sides are underleveled then they become attractive targets for a gank. Which can quickly turn around the flow of the game.

No, that makes the assumption that only that lane is underleveled. All lanes will be as behind. I agree that it gives you more control, but you cannot deny (lol pun) that the loss of gold and exp doesn’t slow the game down a little – because by definition it does just that.

Wards win games, but most people don't know that because the benefits of proper warding are subtle. Compare that to the effort and risk of proper warding and it's no surprise people don't want to.
Make them stronger/easier to use = more people use them.

It’s too delicate a balance to just say that. The reason why people don’t buy wards is that it doesn’t provide any immediate tangible benefit. People are selfish in solo queue and half of them are stupid.
Buff wards to be strong enough for casuals to want to use mean that at higher levels, wards become borderline OP.

I admit I only played DotA for 2 years about 3 years ago.

No it’s just that you make a lot of wrong assumptions about DotA…

And LoL needs to allow buybacks. What good is 3k gold after a while?

Buy a Guardian Angel and then sell it after you die =p


And to all you people who hate masteries/levels/runes/IP – you simply fail to see that it’s RioT’s F2P business model. It is a legitimate way to give value to the time invested in the game.

 

[Haly]

Nasus is actually a pretty good champion if you know what you are doing.

Spoiler

And he has been able to farm the hell out of his Q.

Yeah Nasus is a pretty good champion if allowed to free farm last hits for 30 minutes.

But so are a lot of other champions!

This is wrong. Purple top lane has two locations he can be ganked from via the river (since the tower doesn’t cover the exit closest to his jungle. Similarly, Blue bottom lane has two locations where they can be ganked from via river.

I didn't consider the river because it's equal on both sides. Also, lol river ganking. Only happens in games where your ally doesn't buy a ward when they go back to shop.

Flash. *snicker*

Okay I'll concede this. I still hate Flash though. Also, Flash doesn't cost you anything and Flash on champ X is not the same on Flash on champ Y. For example, Sona with Flash is just a nuisance. Alistar/Annie with Flash, however, can change a game.

No, that makes the assumption that only that lane is underleveled. All lanes will be as behind. I agree that it gives you more control, but you cannot deny (lol pun) that the loss of gold and exp doesn’t slow the game down a little – because by definition it does just that.

If we assume that all lanes are equal in denying prowess, yes this would be true. But it's also a fringe case. In practice, denies won't be nearly as balanced because people are roaming/ganking/pulling/trilaning.

And to all you people who hate masteries/levels/runes/IP – you simply fail to see that it’s RioT’s F2P business model. It is a legitimate way to give value to the time invested in the game.

I know it's a key part of their business model, along with unlocking heroes.

Guess what?

I hate the F2P business model too! Because it requires developers to think along an extra dimension whenever they introduce a new feature: "How can we monetize this?" Which is fine from a business standpoint but get that shit out of my games please.

 

[Meeru]

Just going to leave this quote here from a professional player

You also play League of Legends competitively, and now you’ve played Dota 2. Do you think people will switch from League of Legends to Dota 2 when the game is released?

I think that there will be some loyal Dota fans. LoL and Dota are of different categories. Although it’s still three lanes, two raxes, it’s a different game, as a whole, to me. Some people like it, some people don’t. For myself, I don’t really like LoL. I still enjoy playing Dota a lot. I feel that Dota is more professional as a game, no offence to anyone.

http://nogamenotalk.com/2011/08/26/interview-with-scythe-sgs-team-captain-hyhy-part-2/

 

[Archie]

First game back and I lose because of a DC even though my team got 5 kills in 3 minutes. Jesus Christ.

 

[JWong]

Um, Icefrog is still working on Dota. That's kind of the whole point behind Dota 2. It's Icefrog, without the WC3 engine.

Wait so which is SC2 and SC1 in your analogy here? DOTA2OTA? LoL Now:Lol Beta? LoLota?

Okay I read it some more and I think I understand what you mean.

But a more accurate analogy would be SC2 Beta/Release vs SC2 now. And any dedicated SC2 player can tell you that the metagame is pretty different. While your understanding of core mechanics still carries over, it doesn't mean that you fully grasp how strategies have changed since then, which is what I am focusing on. You're trying to argue with insufficient knowledge and experience. This is why your analyses seem so blatantly wrong to longtime Dota players. You sound like someone who played a few games of APEM back when people thought Clinkz was overpowered and suddenly think they know all there is to know about the game.

I was talking about DotA as in WC3 DotA.

SC2 beta vs SC2 now, the core is the same. Still need to scout, still need to have a build order. All these fundamentals remain the same as DotA fundamentals remain the same. Just because SC2 requires 5 more minerals for whatever unit in the next patch doesn't mean the game has completely changed.

I still play LoL as I did when I started while changing characters to adapt to patches and playstyles.

No it’s just that you make a lot of wrong assumptions about DotA…

Care to point them out?

 

[Neki]

karma is garbage tier in this game, along with skarner and sivir. you should all know this already.

 

[Archie]

dodgedodgedodgedodgedodgedodgedodgedodgedodge

 

[Achtius]

[IM G]http://i.imgur.com/WM60k.jpg[/IMG]

dodgedodgedodgedodgedodgedodgedodgedodgedodge

lol totally dodge.

 

[Neki]

I showed boken jungle teemo the other day, it was awesome.

 

[dimb]

I'd take out Leona (crap), Nasus (crap), Jarven (awesome), Yorick (crap) and add Irelia (awesome). But otherwise he's not far from the mark.

Similar tanky dps heroes are similar.

They don't seem very similar to me. I don't see how a stat stealing champion like Trundle who creates a physical block as a slow and creates large buff zones is similar to Renekton, who is a champion that is all about stuns, auto-attacking to boost moves, survivability, and initiating.

I mean the list is a mix of junglers, tanks, and laners who have a variety of different mechanics, even if they share some similarities in being melee champions with on hit attacks (which is a mechanic I like because it promotes better play and resetting your swing timer). Even Wukong, who is a pretty basic and boring champion, is based more around in and out harass because of his escape mechanics compared to someone like Nasus, who just sits in lane and farms with his self heal.

 

[Haly]

SC2 beta vs SC2 now, the core is the same.

That's fine, but in a balance debate, I would be reluctant to side with the person who played in SC2 beta (such as myself) vs someone who plays SC2 now.

Care to point them out?

I already did, so there's no need for Boken to as well. Unless you're working on your reply?

 

[JWong]

I already did, so there's no need for Boken to as well. Unless you're working on your reply?

Oh crap how did I miss that? I'll get to it when I'm home.

At first glance, easy to respond to all of them.

 

[Ferga]

Really.... people still question jungle xin?

I ONLY play xin as jungle now cause it's just that much better. His ganks almost never fail unless they have flash ghost

 

[Haly]

How about you guys try to come up with a list of negatives that exist in DotA?

Difficult.

For one, in order to figure out if something is negative, you need a basis of comparison. Since I started with Icefrog's Dota, that's my basis for all comparisons when it comes to Dota/Dota-likes.

Second, even if I think such and such feature was a negative, I probably know that it was introduced for a reason. Dota's development history is very different from that of your typical game. Most Dota features are in the game because the players asked for them. Icefrog, despite his reclusive nature, still works far more closely with his game's community than other developers do with theirs.

Just off my head, the major problems of Dota are:

1) Inaccessible. I would say learning Dota for someone with no prior RTS experience is like learning SF4 with no fighting game experience. There are a lot of established conventions, terminology, strategies, etc, that may seem esoteric for new players, and sometimes counterintuitive.

Unlike SF4, however, you don't get called a nazi jew fag lizard brazilian when you lose in SF4. At least not often.

To extend the analogy, LoL is to Dota as Smash is to SF4. Both LoL and Smash are easier to pick up than their counterparts, but inadequately prepare you for the hardcore entries in their respective genres.

2) Focus on the competitive scene. I think all balance changes are from a competitive standpoint, no significant amount of attention is given to modes like APEM. This means that if you play try hard then the game is balanced for you, if you play casual then the game is not balanced for you and that can ruin your experience.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Unlike SF4, however, you don't get called a nazi jew fag lizard brazilian when you lose in SF4. At least not often.

My parents were talking at the table when I read this line.

I started cracking up, and I can't explain why.

 

[JWong]

This is a very shallow understanding of how TPs affect the game. Contrary to what you might think, Teleport scrolls actually promote aggressive play. They allow players to leave their lanes to gank and roam without giving the opponent free reign to knock down their tower. People are very reluctant to leave their lanes in LoL unless they're doing a five man push, part of the reason is a single hero can push down a tower if left alone for too long. And there isn't any way to quickly go back to the tower outside of the Teleport Summoner Spell.

You're being very speculative of LoL players. I really haven't seen this reluctance to leave the lane. I leave my lane several times before the 10 minute mark. You don't need a scroll of TP to do that. I still see TP as to stop BD or to start BD. Really no reason why you would teleport somewhere without opportunity.

If you need all 6 item slots in a LoL game then you're doing something wrong. There's nothing like GG branch or Circlets that you buy two/three of for that early game advantage. The Doran items are as close as you'll get to a spammable early game item and even then you won't be using more than 3-4 of your item slots until 30 minutes in.

Do you ever mix items? I find it hard to believe you don't hit the 6+ mark. Building my 4th item, I'm usually out of space or waiting to get all the items to mix.

How is it overpowered when:
Scrolls have a cooldown.
Scrolls have to be bought and 135g a pop is nothing to laugh at.
Scrolls can be bought by both sides without limit.

When both sides have access to the exact same resource then how can it be overpowered?

30 seconds is nothing. That's half the cooldown for some ultis. That goes by so fast.
135g is laughable IF you know it pays off like killing a load of minions or a tower, which is what TP is used for.
So if both sides can have them, it's balanced? Being able to get anywhere instantly in a game where movement is strategy is extremely powerful like Twisted Fate gankfest except that's his ulti.

He is, early game diving also poses a risk in DotA but not nearly as large. This makes towers less of a safe zone than they are in LoL.

Allowing early game diving doesn't sound fun at all. I don't dive in DotA or LoL, so I can't really comment on this. I really don't get how a player can dive, kill an enemy, and get out at level 1-4.

Are you a frequent jungle player? Because if you were you'd understand how much effort any team has to go through to get a successful gank. Unless one side is very stupid and overextends all the way to tower, it is nearly impossible to kill someone early game without an overwhelming damage/cc advantage.

Ganking is pretty easy for me. I play Jungle Amumu, but Ganking with Annie is such a cinch even when they ward the brush.

Mathematically that makes sense, but in reality it is not true. When you have control over your opponents' level of growth through denying, this gives you a clear advantage in terms of money and experience that translates to more aggressive play. Even if both sides are evenly matched in terms of gold/exp growth, it doesn't mean the game is slower. On the contrary, if both sides are underleveled then they become attractive targets for a gank. Which can quickly turn around the flow of the game.

Don't need deny to do what you're saying. Force the player back to the base to heal by outplaying him. I do it all the time, especially with Kat. There are many ways to achieve what you want without deny.

This is, again, a conclusion you can only reach if you have a rudimentary experience with the game. Hatchet was introduced for this very reason, and many melee champions can survive very well in lane with it. Melee heroes are also often equipped with skills that enable them to lane on equal terms against range. Just taking an example at random, EHOME vs Na'vi game two had Lucifer top against Mirana until the lanes started shifting.

Hatchet/Quelling Blade is just a patch job "must have" item.

Any any hero skills shouldn't be about denying. They should be about fighting the other player. In LoL, I use my melee hero skills to chase the other player out of XP-gain range. That's interesting gameplay, not sitting back and killing your own dudes with ranged.

I'm not sure I follow your thought process here. You think Summoner Spells compensate for lack of active abilities, yet you dislike activate items because they're giving a player another spell. So where does that leave Summoner Spells?

Everyone gets summoner spells. Same amount of spells while limiting having to buy the items. DotA, you can stack all sorts of CC items over someone who's getting stat buffing item.

The point of actives on items is so that you're not confined completely to your champion's built in skills. And that as the game changes, you can get items to compensate for weaknesses that are not covered by your team comp. Unlike Summoner Spells, however, you actually need to work to get those actives, rather than starting the game with them. Which is how they're balanced. The only way to balance Summoner Spells is to increase their cooldown, and even then Flash is still far superior than every other Summoner Spells. At high level games your Summoner Spells aren't an option of two, it's always Flash + something else.

If we're talking about ranked game, team comp isn't an issue. Blind pick is more of an issue, but if the team works things out, they will cover all bases. Don't need to spend 5 mintues of farming to buy an item to compensate.

And I think I spoke about this in another thread. Flash isn't end all be all. I don't get it for certain characters and I still win.

Untrue. Definitely. I've played enough games in both Dota, HoN and LoL to judge that they are about even in terms of average game length. Although, you can concede at 15 in HoN so an obvious victory won't be dragged out to 25 minutes.

I played two years of DotA and haven't seen a game end earlier than 30. They mostly always go 45, but again, this is a while back.

I've lost a LoL game against an all mid tank + 5x fortify team in less than 10, so whatever's fast in DotA is just faster in LoL if people want to put in huge risk.

I'm against free stats. There is no reason player X should have an advantage over player Y simply because player Y played more. This is my main gripe with the rune system. Competitive games should start everyone out on equal terms. The right runes can mean a 400-600 gold advantage, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Ummm you're level 30 playing level 30. If they never bought runes, probably should just start a new account. Everyone should have runes at that point, so there is no advantages except over stupidity of not buying runes.

No, the lanes are set like that because Baron is useless until 30 minutes in and Dragon is a crucial resource. And because jungling is more or less a staple of most pro strategies. There is little room for variation.

I've been in a couple of games recently when the other team stacked 3 on a lane for a moment and lanes started shifting from the get go. It's not always stuck at 1-1-2 + Jungle. There are heroes that are good at something, and that's where they lane.

What is this I don't even.

And the DotA lanes are actually pretty different on a side. For example, top Sentinel is the risky lane, because it borders the Scourge jungle and it's far away from the tower. It's vulnerable to ganks and aggression. Bot Sentinel is the safe lane, because it borders your own jungle, your teammate/jungler can pull the creeps and it's closer to your tower. The opposite is true for Scourge. Compare that to the LoL lanes, which are all equidistant from their respective towers. The only difference is that a typical blue -> red jungle path will take the Blue jungler to bot lane and the Red jungler to top lane. That is pretty much it.

Top Sentinal = Bot Scourge
Bot Sentinal = Top Scourge

Rotational Symmetry. Symmetry isn't different and neither is DotA's map.

Are you really comparing DotA 2 to Dominion? What?

Please don't take the EHOME vs Na'vi finals as representative of the entire game, that's doing it a serious disservice. When you have $1 million on the line I doubt you'd be itching to play aggressively. Especially in a game that severely punishes misguided aggression.

I hate to tell you, but being in the finals doesn't matter. You lose, you're out of the tourney. Haven't seen proxies used in Starcraft tournaments?

Edit: I'm gonna eat and then play until I can buy Teemo, so you can say that "bailed" if I don't reply immediately.

 

[Archie]

I don't feel like retorting to the entire post, but this point needs clarification:

30 seconds is nothing. That's half the cooldown for some ultis. That goes by so fast.
135g is laughable IF you know it pays off like killing a load of minions or a tower, which is what TP is used for.
So if both sides can have them, it's balanced? Being able to get anywhere instantly in a game where movement is strategy is extremely powerful like Twisted Fate gankfest except that's his ulti.

The cooldown on TP scrolls is 65 seconds.
135g is a non trivial amount of money and a small fortune for poor support heroes who have been warding and actively avoiding getting creep kills.
TP scrolls are not a global teleport. You can only TP to towers or your base, and if you cancel the channel then you are shit out of luck because you lose your scroll and have to wait another 65 seconds before it comes off cooldown.

 

[Jhriad]

ITT: DotA2 lurkers troll whilst LoL players feel the need to defend what is a uniquely different game experience for some reason. Sighs & groans ensue.

 

[Legato.Reborn-]

Haly, I really, really like your posts.

 

[dimb]

The new free champion rotation list is indicating this still isn't the beginning of season two. My hopes for Dominion tomorrow feel pretty squashed.

 

[Haly]

You're being very speculative of LoL players. I really haven't seen this reluctance to leave the lane. I leave my lane several times before the 10 minute mark. You don't need a scroll of TP to do that. I still see TP as to stop BD or to start BD. Really no reason why you would teleport somewhere without opportunity.

I'm not speculative of LoL players. All this is from my experience with the game.

Do you ever mix items? I find it hard to believe you don't hit the 6+ mark. Building my 4th item, I'm usually out of space or waiting to get all the items to mix.

Rarely? The only time I need that 6th slot is if the game is 50 minutes long and I finished all my other core items.

Being able to get anywhere instantly in a game where movement is strategy is extremely powerful like Twisted Fate gankfest except that's his ulti.

TF's problem was that he had stun on top of his global teleport. The teleport itself isn't a big problem, since he's squishy. But since he can disable you right after using Destiny, there was little you could do to guard against it. The same goes for Pantheon.

Anyway TF would've much more manageable your team had some kind of tool that allowed you to counter his porting around. Like something that allows people to teleport globally with reasonable constraints and cost.

Allowing early game diving doesn't sound fun at all. I don't dive in DotA or LoL, so I can't really comment on this. I really don't get how a player can dive, kill an enemy, and get out at level 1-4.

Obviously, it's just one of the things incomprehensible to LoL players who think towers = safety. Whether it's good or bad is up to you. I enjoy early game aggression.

Ganking is pretty easy for me. I play Jungle Amumu, but Ganking with Annie is such a cinch even when they ward the brush.

Annie is your argument that ganking is easy? Really?

One of, if not the, best level 6 gankers in the game has an easy time ganking and ganking in LoL is easy? Besides I mentioned damage/cc advantage, which Annie has in spades.

Don't need deny to do what you're saying. Force the player back to the base to heal by outplaying him. I do it all the time, especially with Kat. There are many ways to achieve what you want without deny.

Yeah... Okay. Talking to you is like looking through a time machine. Mid Kat isn't viable (competitively) anymore, hasn't been for a long time.

Hatchet/Quelling Blade is just a patch job "must have" item.

Any any hero skills shouldn't be about denying. They should be about fighting the other player. In LoL, I use my melee hero skills to chase the other player out of XP-gain range. That's interesting gameplay, not sitting back and killing your own dudes with ranged.

If you didn't want the creep aspect in your game why play LoL at all? Why not just play Bloodline champions where you can start killing people immediately? This is a ridiculous argument, one I see thrown around way too often. Denying gives you an extra dimension of conflict (on top of harassing, farming, ganking) when it comes to fighting your opponent. If ganking and harassing are impossible, then you can still farm and deny. A good example of this is the support + AD strat that's popular in ranked. Ever tried to outharass a healing Soraka? It's impossible, so the only thing left for you to do is farm. Zzzzzzzzzz.

Everyone gets summoner spells. Same amount of spells while limiting having to buy the items. DotA, you can stack all sorts of CC items over someone who's getting stat buffing item.

That's the point. The way a game plays out should depend on what players do during the game. That's what items enable. Too many aspects of LoL games are decided before the game actually starts. Pick/banning is where I draw my line. Everything else, runes, masteries, summoner spells is excess.

If we're talking about ranked game, team comp isn't an issue. Blind pick is more of an issue, but if the team works things out, they will cover all bases. Don't need to spend 5 mintues of farming to buy an item to compensate.

What you say, if true, would imply that LoL champions are perfectly balanced. In reality, no team will cover all bases and every team will have weaknesses in some areas over others.

And I think I spoke about this in another thread. Flash isn't end all be all. I don't get it for certain characters and I still win.

Dreamhack:
FnaticMSI vs aAa Championship: All Flash + 1
aAa vs TSM 3rd Place: All Flash + 1
TSM vs EG 4th place: All Flash + 1
aAa vs TSM Semi-Final 1: All Flash + 1
EG vs FnaticMSI Semi-Final 2: All Flash + 1
TSM vs EG Semi-Final: All Flash + 1
CLG vs FnaticMSI Relegation Match 2: All Flash + 1

I wasn't able to list all the matches from Dreamhack because of video problems. But if this isn't evidence enough that Flash is overwhelmingly stronger than the other summoner spells I don't know what is.

I played two years of DotA and haven't seen a game end earlier than 30. They mostly always go 45, but again, this is a while back.

I've played four years of DotA, and both HoN and LoL from beta until now. I've had games that went anywhere from 20 minutes to 90 in DotA, 15 to 60 in HoN and 25 to 60 in LoL. Anecdotal evidence ftw.

I've lost a LoL game against an all mid tank + 5x fortify team in less than 10, so whatever's fast in DotA is just faster in LoL if people want to put in huge risk.

I'm not really talking about low level games where people try silly things for the heck of it. When someone sweeps a championship with 5-man Fortify, let me know.

Ummm you're level 30 playing level 30. If they never bought runes, probably should just start a new account. Everyone should have runes at that point, so there is no advantages except over stupidity of not buying runes.

By the time you get to 30 you'll have enough IP saved for... half a rune page. Maybe a full one at most. Why are players forced to grind to be on the same level as other players? Do SC2 ladder players have to grind to get their units to full strength? Do Quake players have to grind so their weapons are as strong as those of their opponents?

No, the only reason runes exist is to convince players to buy champions with money so they can save IP for runes. As a business move it's great, from a game balancing standpoint it's shit. Balance and fairness, under no circumstances, should be sacrificed for profit if you want your game to be taken seriously.

I've been in a couple of games recently when the other team stacked 3 on a lane for a moment and lanes started shifting from the get go. It's not always stuck at 1-1-2 + Jungle. There are heroes that are good at something, and that's where they lane.

So, basically, sometimes people try to mix up their lanes like people do in Dota, but most of the time they don't. Are you for or against static lane structures then?

(Also I don't think a single Dreamhack game lacked a jungle. I may be wrong, I didn't pay attention to who was jungling or not.)

Top Sentinal = Bot Scourge
Bot Sentinal = Top Scourge

Rotational Symmetry. Symmetry isn't different and neither is DotA's map.

Top Sentinel != Bot Sentinel, is the point I was trying to get across. And I don't mean the placement of a single brush as with Top Blue vs Bot Blue. The lanes are substantially different.

Haly, I really, really like your posts.

Thank you, I tryhard.

ITT: DotA2 lurkers troll whilst LoL players feel the need to defend what is a uniquely different game experience for some reason. Sighs & groans ensue.

I'm fine with people enjoying LoL. I do too. But to say it's better than Dota despite some of its apparent flaws is something I can't just sit back and watch.

The only argument any LoL player employs against Dota is "I don't like x, and LoL removed x, therefore LoL is better."

@Jwong: The impression I'm getting from your posts is that:
1) You don't like denying
2) You don't like early tower diving
3) You don't like early ganking
4) You don't like high levels of mobility
5) You don't like dynamic lanes
6) You like harassing

Am I wrong on any of these accounts?

 

[nara]

haly for president

 

[JWong]

Ugh, I have to get Sivir and Nasus cuz my friend gave me PAX codes.

And that's after I get Teemo!

 

[Haly]

Codes come with the hero.

Lolololololololol

 

[forgeforsaken]

Ugh, I have to get Sivir and Nasus cuz my friend gave me PAX codes.

And that's after I get Teemo!

The codes get you the champ, you don't have to buy them.

 

[Neki]

if you're not running flash on all heroes, then lol. only time I'd recommend something over flash is ghost on some heroes over flash, but even, pro games have showed the meta-game is flash heavy.

 

[zerokoolpsx]

A few co-workers of mine was playing this. So I started playing and its pretty fun. Went to a local Target nearby and picked up a discontinued League of Legends Collector's Pack for msrp. Looking forward to play a lot more now.

 

[Ferrio]

Grawww they have Cass disabled due to a bug. I'm now wondering if the reason I was doing so good was due to the bug. I was hitting people with my Q so much easier... I had thought it was a ninja buff.

 

[JWong]

I'm not speculative of LoL players. All this is from my experience with the game.

In all the games I played this week, there is always lane movement in 5 minutes. I don't know what experience you had if no one is moving to other lanes.

Rarely? The only time I need that 6th slot is if the game is 50 minutes long and I finished all my other core items.

25 min in I'm already past the 6th slot. Doesn't take 50 minutes unless you never deal killing blows, no kills, no tower kills. What kind of character do you play to not get anything done?

TF's problem was that he had stun on top of his global teleport. The teleport itself isn't a big problem, since he's squishy. But since he can disable you right after using Destiny, there was little you could do to guard against it. The same goes for Pantheon.

Anyway TF would've much more manageable your team had some kind of tool that allowed you to counter his porting around. Like something that allows people to teleport globally with reasonable constraints and cost.

So counter a heroes ulti with scrolls?

Obviously, it's just one of the things incomprehensible to LoL players who think towers = safety. Whether it's good or bad is up to you. I enjoy early game aggression.

So explain to me why are they even in the game if they're that useless? If towers can't stop a level 4 or lower, that's just pretty sad. Might as well self destruct when the other team reaches a certain level.

Annie is your argument that ganking is easy? Really?

One of, if not the, best level 6 gankers in the game has an easy time ganking and ganking in LoL is easy? Besides I mentioned damage/cc advantage, which Annie has in spades.

Practically anyone can gank from mid unless the player lacks skills or took the wrong summoner spell.

Yeah... Okay. Talking to you is like looking through a time machine. Mid Kat isn't viable (competitively) anymore, hasn't been for a long time.

No, I still did it with Kat this week against Urgot, who is supposedly king of lane pushing. Not sure who told you what's not viable. Obviously BS.

If you didn't want the creep aspect in your game why play LoL at all? Why not just play Bloodline champions where you can start killing people immediately? This is a ridiculous argument, one I see thrown around way too often. Denying gives you an extra dimension of conflict (on top of harassing, farming, ganking) when it comes to fighting your opponent. If ganking and harassing are impossible, then you can still farm and deny. A good example of this is the support + AD strat that's popular in ranked. Ever tried to outharass a healing Soraka? It's impossible, so the only thing left for you to do is farm. Zzzzzzzzzz.

If you're denying, you're not harassing, farming, or ganking. I'd rather have the game about those 3 than with deny. Even farming has PVP implications because it forces the players closer to the enemy to get killing blows. Deny is the truly boring mechanic where you sit back and kill your own minions.

That's the point. The way a game plays out should depend on what players do during the game. That's what items enable. Too many aspects of LoL games are decided before the game actually starts. Pick/banning is where I draw my line. Everything else, runes, masteries, summoner spells is excess.

Wow, so you're ready to quit before you even play the game. I'm sure skill has nothing to do with it.

What you say, if true, would imply that LoL champions are perfectly balanced. In reality, no team will cover all bases and every team will have weaknesses in some areas over others.

I'm talking about having a carry, having a tank, or a hero who can solo mid when choosing team composition. If you have a team of all mages, it'll be tougher to win, but a bunch of items shouldn't change how a mage hero plays.

Dreamhack:
FnaticMSI vs aAa Championship: All Flash + 1
aAa vs TSM 3rd Place: All Flash + 1
TSM vs EG 4th place: All Flash + 1
aAa vs TSM Semi-Final 1: All Flash + 1
EG vs FnaticMSI Semi-Final 2: All Flash + 1
TSM vs EG Semi-Final: All Flash + 1
CLG vs FnaticMSI Relegation Match 2: All Flash + 1

I wasn't able to list all the matches from Dreamhack because of video problems. But if this isn't evidence enough that Flash is overwhelmingly stronger than the other summoner spells I don't know what is.

Still doesn't mean Flash is all that. I got 12 kills as Jungle Amumu with ghost ganking tonight. No flash. Never needed it.

I've played four years of DotA, and both HoN and LoL from beta until now. I've had games that went anywhere from 20 minutes to 90 in DotA, 15 to 60 in HoN and 25 to 60 in LoL. Anecdotal evidence ftw.

I doubt you played LoL that much if you never had a 20 minute win.

I'm not really talking about low level games where people try silly things for the heck of it. When someone sweeps a championship with 5-man Fortify, let me know.

Wasn't low level when that happened. And it's just as silly as not staying in your lane like that Navi Scythe final. Completely dominated most of the game but lost because of levels.

By the time you get to 30 you'll have enough IP saved for... half a rune page. Maybe a full one at most. Why are players forced to grind to be on the same level as other players? Do SC2 ladder players have to grind to get their units to full strength? Do Quake players have to grind so their weapons are as strong as those of their opponents?

No, the only reason runes exist is to convince players to buy champions with money so they can save IP for runes. As a business move it's great, from a game balancing standpoint it's shit. Balance and fairness, under no circumstances, should be sacrificed for profit if you want your game to be taken seriously.

I had a full rune page with 4 heroes purchased. SC2 and Quake don't have a meta game, so try to find a competitive PVP game with a meta game.

Oh wait! Like EVE, WoW, CoD (crappy). All these games with leveling!
Ranked games can only be played at level 30, so there's really no reason to complain about not having what you need for competitive play.

So, basically, sometimes people try to mix up their lanes like people do in Dota, but most of the time they don't. Are you for or against static lane structures then?

(Also I don't think a single Dreamhack game lacked a jungle. I may be wrong, I didn't pay attention to who was jungling or not.)

My last game, we had 1-2-2 no jungle. Stopped their jungler and broke through mid extremely fast. That's what won us the game.

Maybe you should try mixing up your game if you think nothing but 1-1-2 + jungle works.

Top Sentinel != Bot Sentinel, is the point I was trying to get across. And I don't mean the placement of a single brush as with Top Blue vs Bot Blue. The lanes are substantially different.

Maybe you should tell yourself why 2 goes bot again. LoL is as different as DotA if you're matching heroes to a lane.

I'm fine with people enjoying LoL. I do too. But to say it's better than Dota despite some of its apparent flaws is something I can't just sit back and watch.

The only argument any LoL player employs against Dota is "I don't like x, and LoL removed x, therefore LoL is better."

@Jwong: The impression I'm getting from your posts is that:
1) You don't like denying
2) You don't like early tower diving
3) You don't like early ganking
4) You don't like high levels of mobility
5) You don't like dynamic lanes
6) You like harassing

Am I wrong on any of these accounts?

LoL is faster paced, the game finishes quicker, it's more pvp oriented, it encourages fighting between the lanes, and I actually have a reason to play because I want to earn IP to unlock stuff.

The codes get you the champ, you don't have to buy them.

I guess I didn't read close enough. Thanks.

 

[Neki]

LoL is not more pvp-oriented. there is so much more farming in League because of how passive the laning phase is, because of flash and because of the meta-game. If it was pvp-oriented, we'd see more kills wouldn't we? One of the Gamescons final games between two of the best teams in the world ended in a 8-2 victory for one side after 30 minutes? That's an average of of 1 kill every 3 minutes. oh man, DAT PVP. one of the other games was 12-5. wow, all dat pvp in my league games!

the game should be called league of farming from now on.

 

[Meeru]

Can you 1v1 in LoL? Need Haly vs Jwong

 

[Neki]

Can you 1v1 in LoL? Need Haly vs Jwong

well whoever picks orianna is going to win, so.

 

[Uchip]

LoL is not more pvp-oriented. there is so much more farming in League because of how passive the laning phase is, because of flash and because of the meta-game. If it was pvp-oriented, we'd see more kills wouldn't we? One of the Gamescons final games between two of the best teams in the world ended in a 8-2 victory for one side after 30 minutes? That's an average of of 1 kill every 3 minutes. oh man, DAT PVP. one of the other games was 12-5. wow, all dat pvp in my league games!

the game should be called league of farming from now on.

actually LoL is more PvP oriented
its not uncommon for early 5v5's and theres less focus on last hitting/denying and theres an awful lot of spell harassment
farming is more important in dota (and more complicated)

 

[Neki]

actually LoL is more PvP oriented
its not uncommon for early 5v5's and theres less focus on last hitting/denying and theres an awful lot of spell harassment
farming is more important in dota (and more complicated)

when I think of pvp, I think of kills. there is a lot more auto-attack harassing in DotA then LoL, so the spell harassment point is really moot. farming may be more important in dota, but that doesn't change the fact that all pro players do for the first 15-20 minutes of an actual LoL game are sit in lane and farm.

 

[FutureZombie]

This is one of the two most addictive games I've ever played. Had an awesome game tonight where one of our players disconnected at level 2. We lost one of our inhibitors, but then came back and won. We out killed them 74-33. It was crazy. I had like 529 AP on Veigar.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

All of this talk of DotA/HoN vs LoL doesn't affect me one whit because I mostly play LoL for the Co-Op and not the PvP.

 

[markot]

Farming in hon is just boring >_< and the denying just means more farming of creeps and less fighting of peeps. (hehe)

I got into lol because of dota 2, but if dota 2 is just hon and even less noob friendly, then I wont be jumping on that wagon mr Newell, not at all >.<!

 

[Meeru]

Farming in hon is just boring >_< and the denying just means more farming of creeps and less fighting of peeps. (hehe)

I got into lol because of dota 2, but if dota 2 is just hon and even less noob friendly, then I wont be jumping on that wagon mr Newell, not at all >.<!

How can you come to that conclusion after such a short period of hon? If you want I can tmm with you in bout three hrs.

 

[CrazedProfessional]

New Soraka is hilariously OP. Her early game just rapes you no matter what you build.

 

[markot]

How can you come to that conclusion after such a short period of hon? If you want I can tmm with you in bout three hrs.

I cant play much tonight >.< I think I just need to mess about on practice servers. Its just the games ive played with people... well, I feel bad if I am screwing over their score by being crap >.>;

Also, the character select thing is so limiting for f2p, I know its limiting in lol as well, but I got to use teemo so I was happy ^_^ Wish they would just let you try any hero you want for 5 days or whatever, then you choose which one you want at the end of it with your coins.

Its little things, like denying, you have to press 'a' then click the unit you want to kill, I kept on right clicking them and wondering why the hell I would just run up to them as a ranged unit >.< Then I was near a turret thingy and suddenly 2 dudes burst through the trees and raped me >_>; wtf? And the problem is as a noob, you fall behind fast, so they have the lvl advantage, and you cant spend any gold cause you keep dieing so dont get items... And the weird hotkeys for some consumables, Alt+E? >__<

 

[Boken]

when I think of pvp, I think of kills. there is a lot more auto-attack harassing in DotA then LoL, so the spell harassment point is really moot. farming may be more important in dota, but that doesn't change the fact that all pro players do for the first 15-20 minutes of an actual LoL game are sit in lane and farm.

On principle, Auto attack harassing is boring compared to spell harass. It’s weak visually and is a gradual build up. Sure it might be complicated to pull off and is done more often, but from a spectator point of view it is nowhere near as exciting or easy to understand as spell harass. Spell harass has more damage behind it, and more meaningful effects compared to a gradual war of attrition – e.g. a sudden Alistar headbutt pulverize initiation + follow up. Yes, LoL is a bit of a farm fest atm, but that’s not a mechanics problem. One of the major issues is sustain (and it is gross) but even Sorakas lately have been very aggressive in lane.

For one, in order to figure out if something is negative, you need a basis of comparison. Since I started with Icefrog's Dota, that's my basis for all comparisons when it comes to Dota/Dota-likes.

Second, even if I think such and such feature was a negative, I probably know that it was introduced for a reason. Dota's development history is very different from that of your typical game. Most Dota features are in the game because the players asked for them. Icefrog, despite his reclusive nature, still works far more closely with his game's community than other developers do with theirs.

And that is my point precisely. You’re biased towards Dota.

Rarely? The only time I need that 6th slot is if the game is 50 minutes long and I finished all my other core items.

Any Doran’s stacker will easily hit 6 slots if he wanted to. There are also times where buying components is better than completing one item (e.g. double negatron)

That's the point. The way a game plays out should depend on what players do during the game. That's what items enable. Too many aspects of LoL games are decided before the game actually starts. Pick/banning is where I draw my line. Everything else, runes, masteries, summoner spells is excess.

Yes, many things are decided before the game actually starts. This is essentially because LoL right now is a very champion focused game. But at high levels, we would assume that people are competent enough to pick properly and start the game on near even footing. Simply because some things are decided earlier on, doesn’t make the game worse. I could argue that this makes tactics and plays more important (because remember, they start off on even footing)

What you say, if true, would imply that LoL champions are perfectly balanced. In reality, no team will cover all bases and every team will have weaknesses in some areas over others.

Those are independent factors. Even if champions weren’t perfectly balanced, it is possible to have a balanced team.

I didn't consider the river because it's equal on both sides. Also, lol river ganking. Only happens in games where your ally doesn't buy a ward when they go back to shop.

It takes top purple two wards to cover both gank paths and the same is true for bottom blue. By ‘river ganking’ I mean ganks from the river by the jungler who could easily just go through your jungle to avoid your ward.

I hate the F2P business model too! Because it requires developers to think along an extra dimension whenever they introduce a new feature: "How can we monetize this?" Which is fine from a business standpoint but get that shit out of my games please.

I believe Riot has shown the genre that F2P is the way to go.

The only argument any LoL player employs against Dota is "I don't like x, and LoL removed x, therefore LoL is better."

LoL added river objectives. While runes are nice, they don’t encourage early game team fights as much as a dragon does – simply because you can’t just click on him to get the gold and walk away.

In all the games I played this week, there is always lane movement in 5 minutes. I don't know what experience you had if no one is moving to other lanes.

No, he’s right. There’s no real reason to move lanes early game unless: you make a mistake choosing lanes, you’re trying to gank their jungler, gank their counter jungle or you’re roaming Alistar or Taric.

Practically anyone can gank from mid unless the player lacks skills or took the wrong summoner spell.

This is true. /nods. As long as bot or top has cc, mid often can provide too much damage for the ganked target.

Still doesn't mean Flash is all that. I got 12 kills as Jungle Amumu with ghost ganking tonight. No flash. Never needed it .

You chose one of the champions that can handle not having flash. For everybody else, flash is almost mandatory. Flash is by far the strongest and most versatile summoner spell.

My last game, we had 1-2-2 no jungle. Stopped their jungler and broke through mid extremely fast. That's what won us the game.

That’s simply because middle couldn’t/didn’t know how to handle a 2v1. Most middle champions are capable of doing such so I don’t know what to say. You can’t deny that if you didn’t succeed in beating middle then the jungler team would’ve had a bigger advantage than you. Jungling is too valuable to say it’s not necessary. The only time a jungling team loses is because somebody cannot handle 2v1, not because your lanes were good.

 

[Archie]

Oh gosh Lee Sin is F2P this week. How do I play him?????

 

[Boken]

Oh gosh Lee Sin is F2P this week. How do I play him?????

Jungle.

 

[Archie]

Lee Sin is awesome. Hopefully I can 800 more IP before the next rotation.

 

[markot]

I bought the collectors edition pack and the teemo skin ^_^; (Mainly because you get 1000 or so riot points from the pack itself... which doesnt make much sense because why not just discount the pack >_>?)

Want the astronaut teemo skin but its abit too pricey >.<

 

[Ferny]

Tried out Talon yesterday and liking how he plays. Can stay in lane real well and push when needed. Liking how he plays alot.