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[JWong]

I'm baaaaack after getting Teemo last night. So tired and Sooooogood.gif.

Edit: ugh work just got busy. gotta reply to the long post later tonight

 

[Archie]

Rayvenn can you convince the UI guys to have an option for a perpetual scoreboard so I don't have to constantly press tab? You can rip off Dota 2 and put it at the top of the screen.

 

[iamblades]

I'm really liking tanky garen build now.

You can get decent results with very little farm, once you get sunfire you completely wipe creep waves in seconds. Then you get frozen hammer and nothing is ever going to get away from you.

 

[Archie]

lol

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

His E is buggy as fuck though, sometimes you can spin through jungle sometimes you don't. Hell one time I got stuck INBETWEEN the jungle. It's most certainly one of the more buggy jungle cutter skills.

Once, I just got done bursting down a squishy while the teams were dancing back and forth poking at each other. Obviously, they all immediately started gunning for me, but it was cool because Renekton is uber pro at getting in and out, right? I went to Slice through the jungle like a boss, but instead I got pinned to it while still doing the spinning dive animation until the enemy team finished demolishing me.

100/100 Fury bar IRL

 

[Rayven]

Rayvenn can you convince the UI guys to have an option for a perpetual scoreboard so I don't have to constantly press tab? You can rip off Dota 2 and put it at the top of the screen.

what would u want? relevant stuff to me:

- champion icon
- death timer (when applicable)
- kda
- cs

add those on to the timer/latency

 

[Archie]

Champion icon/death timer would be a priority. I find myself constantly tabbing to see how much time is left before enemies respawn and it makes me lose focus when pushing. Tab can still be used for the detailed information, but something to quickly glance at while pushing or doing Baron/dragon would help me make smarter decisions.

 

[Blizzard]

Champion icon/death timer would be a priority. I find myself constantly tabbing to see how much time is left before enemies respawn and it makes me lose focus when pushing. Tab can still be used for the detailed information, but something to quickly glance at while pushing or doing Baron/dragon would help me make smarter decisions.

I agree that these are most important. The key questions to me are how many people are still alive, and how long do you have until the dead ones respawn.

Of course, I still feel like the new scoreboard is a bit confusing with all the white text that looks the same, but I may just be dumb.

 

[Archie]

The scoreboard is great for detailed stats, but I find myself suffering from information overload when I want to quickly see which champs are dead and for how long.

 

[Ikuu]

Could do something like BardUI in HoN

You can click the arrows to show KDA.

 

[eznark]

 

[Ark]

WHAT.

I just bought Caitlyn too T__T

Time to buy a magazine this week.

 

[Blizzard]

WHAT.

I just bought Caitlyn too T__T

Time to buy a magazine this week.

I bought her like last week. >_> Where does one even buy a single magazine? I am unfamiliar with the mystical and arcane world of inkpaper media!

 

[Ark]

If someone buys that magazine and doesn't want that Caitlyn skin, I'll be more than happy to take it off you're hands

I bought her like last week. >_> Where does one even buy a single magazine? I am unfamiliar with the mystical and arcane world of inkpaper media!

Supermarket? News agents?

 

[SouthernDragon]

CAITLYN SKIN EXCLUSIVE?!

TIME TO GO TO B&N

 

[Achtius]

what would u want? relevant stuff to me:

- champion icon
- death timer (when applicable)
- kda
- cs

add those on to the timer/latency

death timer.. oh god, yes plz

 

[brian!]

oh man I never knew lee sin was so fun

 

[HildyB]

Brought back 5 PAX Riot Nasus skins (gives you the hero too). PM, first come, first serve.

EDIT : GONE. Enjoy.

 

[Ark]

Where did you get this? I'm looking on the interwebs and I can't find a PCGamer issue with that cover.

Or maybe I'm doing it wrong. Damn magazines.

 

[Blackface]

for the guy wondering about Renekton. Voyboy just 3 v 1 a Taric, Akali and Katarina. Someone in the game chat said someone needs to said that to the weekly top plays.

Dat Renekton.

 

[Archie]

woo

 

[Blizzard]

Where did you get this? I'm looking on the interwebs and I can't find a PCGamer issue with that cover.

Or maybe I'm doing it wrong. Damn magazines.

Apparently it's the November 2011 issue, and it may also include a free TF2 hat (not sure): http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Killer_Exclusive

Also it's kind of sad that I spent 6300 points on Caitlyn since people who buy that magazine apparently get the CHAMPION for free as well, if the internets are accurate.

*edit* It may also be UK only, not sure.

 

[Archie]

The magazine has the hat *and* skin? Oh my. It is like my nerdiest dream came true.

 

[Ark]

Apparently it's the November 2011 issue, and it may also include a free TF2 hat (not sure): http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Killer_Exclusive

Also it's kind of sad that I spent 6300 points on Caitlyn since people who buy that magazine apparently get the CHAMPION for free as well, if the internets are accurate.

*edit* It may also be UK only, not sure.

UK only is fine, with me being in the UK and all

Caitlyn for FREE? I actually spent RP on her (don't ask me why), if it's the November edition then I don't mind. Guess I'll be eagerly awaiting the November edition to appear in the stores.

I might give Irelia a try later on down the line.

The magazine has the hat *and* skin? Oh my. It is like my nerdiest dream came true.

Always need more hats

 

[Mothman91]

In my java programming class. I hate this class so damn much, don't get anything the teacher is saying. I just want to go home and playyy.

 

[dimb]

*edit* It may also be UK only, not sure.

The upcoming UK edition of PCGamer has a Guild Wars 2 cover, so this is probably an America thing.

 

[eznark]

It's the US issue, Josh Augustine put it on his google+

 

[Ark]

It's the US issue, Josh Augustine put it on his google+

Ahh that sucks ass :l

I just played Caitlyn for the first time in an AI match.

I think I just found my new favourite hero.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Oh my.

Enjoy your Caitlyn, guys. People underuse and underrate traps. It's all about space and bush control!

 

[eznark]

What am I missing, the cover just says "free skin."

 

[Card Boy]

What am I missing, the cover just says "free skin."

With 'free skins' promos you get the base hero aswell for free.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Makes me kinda jelly, I did pay for her... but I did find my main DPS and got lots of practice with her. Not to mention a lot of people suck with trap placement anyways.

 

[Ark]

Makes me kinda jelly, I did pay for her... but I did find my main DPS and got lots of practice with her. Not to mention a lot of people suck with trap placement anyways.

Yeah I gotta do some practice with that.

 

[Uchip]

i havent bought PCGamer in a long ass time
Depending on how the skin looks i might get it

 

[Blizzard]

I really like Caitlyn. I like Miss Fortune but I do really badly with her sometimes -- had like 11 deaths in a game earlier today (that we still won because I was the main one dying, lol). I spent almost all of my remaining IP to buy Vayne today, and I like her, but she definitely does die really easily.

It's also frustrating playing intermediate bots, because you'll be doing 600-900 damage crits and the bots will hardly take any damage without armor it seems like. XD Or, fighting Ashe who magically has both banshee's veil and guardian angel after like 30 minutes.

*edit* Oh, and Caitlyn is hot. Try her shift-1 move. >_>

 

[Achtius]

Have anyone confirmed which skin it is?

 

[Card Boy]

i havent bought PCGamer in a long ass time
Depending on how the skin looks i might get it

I'm going to the Library!

 

[Owlowiscious]

Have anyone confirmed which skin it is?

the cover says exclusive, which to me means brand new.

also i love how we're all jumping on the chance to buy this $7 magazine for a skin, but won't buy $5 skins in the in-game store. well, most people maybe?

 

[Neki]

the cover says exclusive, which to me means brand new.

also i love how we're all jumping on the chance to buy this $7 magazine for a skin, but won't buy $5 skins in the in-game store. well, most people maybe?

free swag is basically free swag. it's actually 975 RP + how ever much RP the skin will be, which is a great value for people who don't own her.

 

[Blizzard]

the cover says exclusive, which to me means brand new.

also i love how we're all jumping on the chance to buy this $7 magazine for a skin, but won't buy $5 skins in the in-game store. well, most people maybe?

In addition to free Caitlyn (for some people who are not me), I just don't want to buy Riot points. I'm weirdly okay with buying other stuff for exclusive skins. Also, the magazine may come with a TF2 hat as well, so that's clearly worth a BUNCH of money. ;p

 

[JWong]

I said it discourages movement. Also, movement in 5 minutes? You mean movement after the jungle finishes red, and mid is almost 6? Yeah, I guess that's when the lanes start moving because everyone is nice and ready and feel like they can actually get a gank going.

So you're saying people switch lanes before 5 minutes in DotA to attack? You don't even have any skills to do any damage.

Irelia Build:
Sapphire + 2 Pots
First trip back:
Build Sheen + Boots + as many components of Brutalizer as possible
Second trip back:
Merc treads, finish Brutalizer, make Avarice if possible
Third trip back:
Finish Youmuu's ghostblade. If I need more damage I start on phage, if I need health I start on catalyst.
Fourth trip back:
Zeal/Negatron Cloak
Fifth trip back:
Triforce/Banshees, start building which ever one I didn't build earlier

30-40 minutes in:
Merc Treads, Youmuu's, Triforce, Banshees

The only time I hit 5 items is when building Triforce, and that's only because it has so many constituent items.

I guess it depends on the role. I'm mid, I gank very often. I get about 8 kills before 30 minutes and I have Doran's Ring, Sorcerer's Shoe, Mejaj Soulstealer, Rod of Ages, Rylai's Crystal Scepter, and already building whatever's next.

So can't really deny the fact you can get to 6+ items that fast because you're probably jungling or doing something that isn't getting gold as fast as I am.

Not direct counter, but global ults wouldn't have been nerfed with the existence of scrolls.

Imagine Shen, TF, Nocturne using their ults on an enemy, and the entire other team uses their scrolls to teleport right beside the target to help.

So, in my mind, it's definitely huge counter. LoL values teleport and doesn't have anyone like that retarded Prophet can teleport so godamn often at level 4 skill.

Towers provide pacing to the game, serve as a resource and an early deterrent but not a perfect one.

So you admit that towers are not perfect, but I doubt DotA 2 is going to improve on that. Towers should be highly valuable and hard to kill, so that's why they do a lot of damage. So much ganking happens between towers anyway that there really isn't a safe zone.

Not even close to true. Unless by anyone you mean "all viable mid heroes". You know what qualifies a champ as vianle mid? Good ganking ability!

There are many reasons to use different heroes for mid. Ganking is one of them, but the reason is really placed on the value of the heroes skills/ulti. Annie has the best ulti money can buy, but she might not be the best choice for it.

You might want to take a carry, like Caitlyn or Ashe, and try to get them to their carry build asap, or you might just have someone who can push towers and harass the enemy mid. So many reasons with mix matching hero types when the game starts.

I said competitively. As in, 1800-2000 ELO or higher.

So what? If the Kat player has better skills, then that player will know how to harass and chase away mid, even in a high rank game. It's possible within the mechanics and quite viable.

What? They are mechanically the same. Move closer to a weak creep in order to kill them. Do you know of some magical way for a hero to deny without moving closer to the target?

Do we really need to take out a measuring stick?

If you're 5 yards away from your minions, and your minions are 2 yards from the enemy minions they are attacking. Simple math, you are always further from the enemy minions than your own. Especially when it comes to the ranged minions (well DotA only sends out one of them...).

Whether or not I'm ready to quit before the game starts is not the point here. Players should start out on an even footing. Masteries/Runes/Summoner spells work counter to this.

I still don't understand this when everyone is at the same level with the same opportunity to be equal. Mastery and Runes are still very minor that skill can easily overcome them.

And a skillful player is an invested player. An invested player will know to get runes, etc.

There is no such thing as the perfect team. A well rounded team will lack as much pushing power as a dedicated pushing team, less aoe than an aoe one, less harass than a poke team.

Sounds like the dedicated team will always lose if skills are equal.

I disagree then. Part of the fun of Dota is finding out ways to bring out a hero's full potential with items.

There's no full potential with items. It's all about countering the enemy.
Which is why the fun of MOBA games is the PVP. Not looking at thottbot for the best armor set in WoW.

Sorry, unless I'm missing on something you're not on any of the top competitive rosters for LoL. Your personal experience is inconsequential when it comes to judging overall trends in the meta game.

Ah, yes, the elitism. Are you any better at the game?

I've had <20 minute games. They were either: Smurfstomps, someone on the other team left, clear imbalance in player skill. Whenever I have one of those games I don't really consider them a win.

Also:
http://i.min.us/ibtDNH0HOdF4d5.png
Not as much as someone like 2th but I've been playing other stuff in the meantime.

The player with better skills shouldn't be considered a winner? That's quite funny.

Care to show your ranked, mister elite? I can show you my WoW played time, but doesn't mean I can noob talk anyone else.

If it's not 1800-2000+ or some kind of large scale tournament, it's low level. I'm a competent LoL player, I understand the game and most of the champions. But I have no illusions that whatever I'm doing can be considered anything but low-level. In SC2, a Silver player can understand what goes on in Masters, even if they're not necessarily able to duplicate it.

Another case of elitism.

First, the term metagame is very nebulous when talking about videogames. Rarely do people use the formal definition and metagame becomes a broad term for "anything that's not necessarily part of the game".

The definition you're using, as far as I can tell is: "Stuff that happens before the actual game"

The definition I'm using is: "Strategies, tactics and techniques developed by the playerbase in order to bettre understand and play the game."

Also if you went into the SC2 thread and said "SC2 has no metagame" you'd get laughed out.

Second, don't compare EVE PvP to something arena-based like LoL/Dota. They are too vastly different to draw any reasonable conclusions. One is completely persistent, far more dpendant on position in local and node space, unlimited in potential number of players, has an economy and is ongoing 24/7. The other is limited to 10 or less players a side, has only a smidgen of persistence and only takes place in bursts of 20-60 minutes. Comparing EVE to LoL is like comparing real life warfare to chess.

Third, WoW is a better comparison. But in a list of highly competitive games, no one would put WoW (Arena or Battlegrounds) at the top except fanboys. Why? Because of the effect of gear on PvP. It is not enough to be good at the game in order to do well, but you also have to play it very often. Playtime = power goes against the purity of competitive play.

Short answer, games with persistence makes players invested into the game thus makes the game more enjoyable when players research builds. I'll expand this explanation further down.

Of course, this doesn't apply to account buyers.

Congrats, you won a game with a different strategy. Now, try this in high level ranked and tell me how it goes. (Besides you never answered my question, are you for or against static lane structures?)

DotA has static lanes only changed by the hero that goes there. Not sure what you're talking about. Also another case of elitism.

2 goes bot because of dragon. The lanes themselves aren't any different at all. If Baron was viable before 30 minutes, then 2 top would also be a viable strategy. It isn't, so people are pigeonholed into 2 bot.

Funny, I played a recent game grinding ip for my Teemo. Joined a 4 premade and they had one good defender at bot because their jungler was competent to take dragon without being in danger. Because 2 pushed top and killed the tower pretty quick, we won the game because of map control. Guess they shook things up a bit. Didn't think that was possible?

Debatable.

It's in the design. It's not debatable. They are taking out dumb, time-extending DotA mechanics to shorten the game. And brush provides so much more ganking opportunities to have more kills happen more often.

Illusion, spamming skills at the opponent is only possible because of low/no mana cost spells and high regen. Throwing a 40 damage nuke 4 times is no different than throwing a 160 damage nuke once.

It's more pvp oriented because the player interacts less with non player characters. It's as simple as that. Deny is not PVP.

I'm confused. You DON'T like mobility that's available to everyone, and you DON'T like early (pre 6) tower dives or early aggression, but you LIKE fighting between the lanes. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that you want to farm until 6/red before you do anything of importance.

You kinda skip lanes using scrolls, well, if you have a gazillion wards around the place.

And I don't know why anyone would wait around between lanes at low level. Of course people are going to level up first.

This is precisely why the F2P model is evil. Your primary motivation for playing any game should be because it's fun, not out of some kind of obligation to unlock stuff.

It's fun to play the game, and it's better to get rewards out of it.

Double reward. What does it mean?

Spoiler

Clearly, you don't get why.

Also, free means I don't have obligation to "get my monies worth". That's stressful.

In addition to free Caitlyn (for some people who are not me), I just don't want to buy Riot points. I'm weirdly okay with buying other stuff for exclusive skins. Also, the magazine may come with a TF2 hat as well, so that's clearly worth a BUNCH of money. ;p

Edit: Shiiiiet might need to buy that mag.

Spoiler

Or steal the code from the book shop. =P

 

[Uchip]

I'm going to the Library!

that is actually a really good idea
though usually promotional things are removed from magazines

 

[Neki]

Imagine Shen, TF, Nocturne using their ults on an enemy, and the entire other team uses their scrolls to teleport right beside the target to help.

So, in my mind, it's definitely huge counter. LoL values teleport and doesn't have anyone like that retarded Prophet can teleport so godamn often at level 4 skill.

why is this a bad thing again?

So you're saying people switch lanes before 5 minutes in DotA to attack? You don't even have any skills to do any damage.

uh, skills still do damage in dota. heroes can roam in dota, unlike league.

cool beans brah.

 

[LCGeek]

I really like Caitlyn. I like Miss Fortune but I do really badly with her sometimes -- had like 11 deaths in a game earlier today (that we still won because I was the main one dying, lol). I spent almost all of my remaining IP to buy Vayne today, and I like her, but she definitely does die really easily.

It's also frustrating playing intermediate bots, because you'll be doing 600-900 damage crits and the bots will hardly take any damage without armor it seems like. XD Or, fighting Ashe who magically has both banshee's veil and guardian angel after like 30 minutes.

*edit* Oh, and Caitlyn is hot. Try her shift-1 move. >_>

Just keep at it dominating people comes easy with her. Time your shots and always try to make sure you use condemn or tumble for the third shot. Crits with this were 1k plus easy. Normally I don't use flash but had to demonstrate to a few people in queue I go broke when necesary.

 

[Boken]

This is precisely why the F2P model is evil. Your primary motivation for playing any game should be because it's fun, not out of some kind of obligation to unlock stuff. -- Just because JWong plays to unlock stuff doesn't mean everybody does that. There are some people who play games to unlock things - trophy whores ahoy? But the sense of accumulation and progress is a satisfying one for anybody, even if you think that's evil. Many people love accumulating, growth, progress etc and IP does that. The only real problem is that everything costs too much.

Riot's molasses slow balance cycle. -- Different in balance philosophy perhaps. To me it doesn't feel slow, game breaking stuff is hotfixed (usually). Major changes to metagames might take a while yes, but trying to change the metagame too often is very dangerous
The impact of their business model on game design choices. -- Well, their business is the game
Lack of creativity when it comes to hero design. -- Yes.
Limitations of the engine. -- Yes.

I disagree but I recognize that personal preference is a key factor here. As someone who started LoL from Dota, not having everything unlocked from the start is incomprehensible. The idea is too WoW-like for me, I just want to compete. I don't want to grind to be on the same level as other players. In fact, the only reason I bought runes is because other people have runes. It's neither an engaging nor interesting aspect of the game for me. I have three rune pages at the moment, one is generic caster/tank, the other two are ad/jungle pages I made based off of Stonewall's rune layouts. That's it, that's about the extent runes factor into my enjoyment of the game. -- Sorry, I meant that once a game starts, the only thing teams can do to win is through their tactics and plays because everything else is decided before the game (picks, runes, lanes) and game changing items dont exist.


Let me clarify. When I say "balanced" in terms of hero comp, I meant well-rounded. As in, has pushing, harass, sustain, poking, stuns etc. But no team can excel in all these factors simultaneously. Thus a balanced team sacrifices proficiency in any given strat. it's more adaptable, but it's also not as strong as a dedicated push team. Therefore, it's impossible to create a team without some kind of weaknesses. And having no specialties isactually a weakness. -- Being well rounded means you have no specialties. Rarely would you see a well rounded team because if a certain strategy is stronger, people would necessarily gravitate towards that type of team composition. Being well-rounded is rarely required unless you're playing blind pick and need to be able to beat any team. But when it's a draft game, building a well rounded team is pointless when you know what your opponents are doing


Okay, I wasn't thinking about going through jungle actually. I guess I don't see it often enough that it slipped my mind. But if I recall correctly, you can't get to top red or bottom blue without taking a hit from the tower, or am I mistaken? -- Top purple tower doesnt protect the path from the brush and nor does bottom blue tower


Business wise? Yeah. But you didn't need Riot to tell you this, the F2P models overwhelming popularity in the East is evidence enough that it's sustainable and versatile.

However, Riot has also shown us how harmful monetization of features can impact a competitive game. Let's just take a look at the rune and champion system. Runes have to be bought with IP, champions can be bought with IP and RP, skins can only be bought with RP. The current system offers players 4 options on how they want to progress. --I think the difference is that I'm very appreciative of good business. Riot aren't Valve with a shit tonne of cash to throw at the game. They started with nothing compared to what they have today.
-- Note: I haven't bought a single RP

My replies are in bold.

 

[dimb]

Why do I like this picture so much?

 

[Haly]

So you're saying people switch lanes before 5 minutes in DotA to attack? You don't even have any skills to do any damage.

Playing with LoL health pools probably messed with your memories because you can very easily kill someone pre level 5 with just one or two well timed stuns and attack move.

Oh wait, LoL doesn't have many hard stuns either. No wonder you think players need to be 6 to kill.

I guess it depends on the role. I'm mid, I gank very often. I get about 8 kills before 30 minutes and I have Doran's Ring, Sorcerer's Shoe, Mejaj Soulstealer, Rod of Ages, Rylai's Crystal Scepter, and already building whatever's next.

So can't really deny the fact you can get to 6+ items that fast because you're probably jungling or doing something that isn't getting gold as fast as I am.

The next time you have all of that pre 30 minutes, get a screenshot (preferably with scoreboard). I really need to see some proof of this.

Imagine Shen, TF, Nocturne using their ults on an enemy, and the entire other team uses their scrolls to teleport right beside the target to help.

So, in my mind, it's definitely huge counter. LoL values teleport and doesn't have anyone like that retarded Prophet can teleport so godamn often at level 4 skill.

TP Scroll can only port to tower. But yeah that's the gist of it.

LoL does not value teleport. I don't know how you can even say this when they just recently removed them because they couldn't balance them properly.

Also Prophet isn't a nuker/carry. He can help ganks, but he can't gank by himself. His primary role is to push and disable once he gets Guinsoo. By himself, his teleport is only a pushing skill. It's only a ganking skill when used in conjunction with another hero. Contrast that to Pantheon or TF, who can easily kill a hero by themselves using their natural burst/dps.

So you admit that towers are not perfect, but I doubt DotA 2 is going to improve on that. Towers should be highly valuable and hard to kill, so that's why they do a lot of damage. So much ganking happens between towers anyway that there really isn't a safe zone.

I said towers aren't a perfect deterrent, because they shouldn't be. Tower diving should have reasonable risk/rewards, which they do in Dota. So I'm fine with it. Also, towers are highly valuable because they give massive gold and hard to kill because of TP scrolls and Rune of Fortification.

There are many reasons to use different heroes for mid. Ganking is one of them, but the reason is really placed on the value of the heroes skills/ulti. Annie has the best ulti money can buy, but she might not be the best choice for it.

You might want to take a carry, like Caitlyn or Ashe, and try to get them to their carry build asap, or you might just have someone who can push towers and harass the enemy mid. So many reasons with mix matching hero types when the game starts.

You do realize Ashe is picked because she has global gank initiation right? Your statement was, "Practically anyone can gank from mid". Which is not true. You even said you might not want to pick a hero for their ganking abilities, but for their carrying abilities, which implies that not every hero can easily gank from mid. Are you even reading your own posts or just treating every one of my responses as standalone?

So what? If the Kat player has better skills, then that player will know how to harass and chase away mid, even in a high rank game. It's possible within the mechanics and quite viable.

Balance debates should assume two sides are of equal or comparable skills. What's the point of balancing if you say "well champion X is good if you're much better than the other player". Anyway mid kat is only viable in low level (I'd say sub 30) play for people who don't know how to counter her harassing.

Do we really need to take out a measuring stick?

If you're 5 yards away from your minions, and your minions are 2 yards from the enemy minions they are attacking. Simple math, you are always further from the enemy minions than your own. Especially when it comes to the ranged minions (well DotA only sends out one of them...).

A hero can just move closer to the creeps so that to get in range of your own you have to get within range of their attack/nuke. This is true in Dota, HoN, and LoL. It's called zoning, and people zone denying as well as farming.

I still don't understand this when everyone is at the same level with the same opportunity to be equal. Mastery and Runes are still very minor that skill can easily overcome them.

And a skillful player is an invested player. An invested player will know to get runes, etc.

They're unnecessary. For someone that claims that LoL trims the excess in Dota you seem fine with masteries and runes, which exist solely to provide an artificial feeling of persistence.

Sounds like the dedicated team will always lose if skills are equal.

I don't know how you can even make a generalization like this without anything to back it up.

There's no full potential with items. It's all about countering the enemy.
Which is why the fun of MOBA games is the PVP. Not looking at thottbot for the best armor set in WoW.

I said it was a personal preference. Is my enjoyment of the game somehow wrong?

Ah, yes, the elitism. Are you any better at the game?

Don't play the "omg elitist" card. Riot balances the game based on high level/tourney play. I've given evidence of the unrivaled popularity of Flash in the highest level LoL tournament in recent memory. Are you really asserting that your experience with this game carries as much weight as the those of the teams in Dreamhack?

The player with better skills shouldn't be considered a winner? That's quite funny.

If the other team doesn't give me a challenge I don't consider it a win, I consider it a waste of time. It's just an OCD I have, I expect it's all that anime. I don't usually get pleasure from a victory unless my opponent is equal/better than I am. If you just wanted to win, then you can smurfstomp all day.

Care to show your ranked, mister elite? I can show you my WoW played time, but doesn't mean I can noob talk anyone else.

Sure. Anyway, you said "I doubt you played this game that long", and my screenshot was just to prove your asssumption wrong. If you wanted my ranked stats you should've said so earlier.

Another case of elitism.

Another dismissal that tries to dodge the point I'm making. Let me spell it out for you.

Riot doesn't care about what someone in <1500s says about the balance of the game. I'm part of this group, you are, in all likelihood, part of this group. Most of LoLGAF besides Legato is part of this group. In a discussion about balance, our opinions are worth nothing in their eyes.

However this doesn't mean that someone <1500 can't observe and infer what's going on at 1800+. While it's difficult due to the lack of replays, LoL is popular enough on Own3DTV such that it is quite easy for anyone to see what's going on in the pro scene. Whenever I talk about balance, I'm setting aside my own experiences for what I've seen and learned from people who are in that bracket, either through streams or posts or blogs.

Anyway, I don't see why people think "elitism" is some kind of logical fallacy. Sure, it's annoying and condescending, but that doesn't inherently negate any points the elitist makes. Just look at EJ. About the most elitist crowd in WoW but they also have a ton of math and data backing up any criticisms they have about balance in the game.

Short answer, games with persistence makes players invested into the game thus makes the game more enjoyable when players research builds. I'll expand this explanation further down.

I'm not sure what ths answer has to do with the existence/nonexistence of metagame in SC2, PvP in EVE/WoW as compared to PvP in Dota/HoN, or the effects of persistence on competitive play and balance.

Are you even interested in discussion or are you just using my posts as a general launchpoint for whatever you have on your mind?

DotA has static lanes only changed by the hero that goes there. Not sure what you're talking about. Also another case of elitism.

By static I mean people tend to stay in their lane vs people tend to move about.

Funny, I played a recent game grinding ip for my Teemo. Joined a 4 premade and they had one good defender at bot because their jungler was competent to take dragon without being in danger. Because 2 pushed top and killed the tower pretty quick, we won the game because of map control. Guess they shook things up a bit. Didn't think that was possible?

Why do you extrapolate single games to the entire metagame? What is even your basis for this? And I've mentioned numerous times that, unless you're actually a high-ranked player, the game isn't balanced for you.

It's in the design. It's not debatable. They are taking out dumb, time-extending DotA mechanics to shorten the game. And brush provides so much more ganking opportunities to have more kills happen more often.

This mostly stems from your assumption that you can't kill unless you have levels, which is wrong, as anyone who's played a bit of high level Dota/HoN can tell you. The same is true of destructible jungle vs brush. You're arguing with insufficient knowledge/experience.

It's more pvp oriented because the player interacts less with non player characters. It's as simple as that. Deny is not PVP.

Then neither is tower killing, farming, jungling, baron, dragon or nexus. If you admit all of this is PvP, then you must also admit that denying is PvP. Using words like "PvP" and "PvE" to describe different aspects of the game is misleading. Creeps and towers are equivalent to economy in RTS because they serve as a resource to improve your champion/hero. By extension, controlling the rate at which people farm/take down towers is interfering/disrupting resource gain, which definitely counts as PvP, even if it isn't direct.

And I don't know why anyone would wait around between lanes at low level. Of course people are going to level up first.

In Dota, people wait around in lanes at low level in order to set up a potential kill. Like I said, playing LoL so often has conditioned you into thinking that players can't/shouldn't kill before 5 or 6. But the truth of the matter is that some people purposefully abandon lanes just to run around setting up ganks with their stuns/disables. Many times these players will be about 2-3 levels behind everyone else on their team, yet no one will fault them for this. Because their contribution to the team's overall victory far outweighs their lack of farm/experience.

It's fun to play the game, and it's better to get rewards out of it.

My reward from Dota is just playing the game but okay.

Double reward. What does it mean?

Spoiler

Clearly, you don't get why.

No idea. Is it some Jeapordy thing?

Also, free means I don't have obligation to "get my monies worth". That's stressful.

This phenomenon is very common in games with monthly fees. But did you know that it also exists in LoL? First, there is the Daily IP win bonus. Before the introduction of Co-op vs AI, people would play a few games just for this bonus. Second, because of the rate at which Riot releases Champions, it is impossible for someone to buy them all with IP unless they play very often. Considering Riot's two/three week release schedule, those players who choose not to spend any money on the game feel they need to play more in order to keep up with the releases. If you don't believe me you just need to look around in this thread, or when anyone complains about yet another 6300 IP champ.

I get the feeling you don't really understand Riot's business model at all, except in a very superficial sense.

Just because JWong plays to unlock stuff doesn't mean everybody does that. There are some people who play games to unlock things - trophy whores ahoy? But the sense of accumulation and progress is a satisfying one for anybody, even if you think that's evil. Many people love accumulating, growth, progress etc and IP does that. The only real problem is that everything costs too much.

I also hate trophy/achievement. Theyre meaningless artificial inflation of a game's worth. Their sole purpose in the community is to contribute to dick waving. They have no positive impact on the actual quality of games. When people play your game solely to unlock achievements and not because the game itself is a fun and rich experience, something went very wrong in the design phase, and indeed, in the entire industry.

Sorry, I meant that once a game starts, the only thing teams can do to win is through their tactics and plays because everything else is decided before the game (picks, runes, lanes) and game changing items dont exist.

Yeah well, I'd rant about Riot's item design but it'd take up another post and I'm tired.

Being well rounded means you have no specialties...

Right. So, every team has some kind of weakness, just like Control/Aggro/Combo decks in M:TG have weaknesses, every Toss/Terran/Zerg build has weaknesses, every opening move in Chess has weaknesses.

I think the difference is that I'm very appreciative of good business. Riot aren't Valve with a shit tonne of cash to throw at the game. They started with nothing compared to what they have today.

I'm not going to cut Riot slack on their game just because they didn't have the financial backing Valve gives to its projects. Hell, considering how much money they've made from LoL, I will treat them as I would treat any other wildly successful developer. They have more employees than most long-time companies, yet somehow they seem to accomplish less.

I'm not just talking about hero balance, I'm talking about release stuff like replays, clan support, voice integration, etc. They're still on fucking Adobe fucking Air when representatives have openly stated that there are many features that are not possible because of the concessions they made early on to prioritize on getting the game out vs long-term extensibility. I heard from a friend that the developers make changes to the map using a text editor. A text editor? In today's day and age? My mind was truly blown.

For all their progress business-wise, they still feel like a startup developer struggling to make a profit. Hopefully, Dominion will change this.

-- Note: I haven't bought a single RP

 

[FutureZombie]

Why is flash so much more popular than ghost?

 

[2th]

http://i.imgur.com/tuuGC.jpg

Why do I like this picture so much?

well it certainly makes me laugh.

 

[Card Boy]

I will give someone a copy of Rome Total War Gold (Steam key) if you can get me that Caitlyn skin. Quote me for the new page.