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League of Legends |OT| Free to play Dota clone (PC)
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FutureZombie said:
Her Q has 1100 range, which is on the high end for caster range, but not unusual for skill shots that are relatively easy to dodge. Gragas barrel is 1100 as well, Caitlyn's peacemaker is 1300, ashe's volley is 1200, sivir's boomerang is 1200. Lux's stuff is all 1000/1100. Orianna's is all 925.
As for auto attack range, anivia's is 600, which is slightly above average for a ranged champ, ashe is also 600, caitlyn is 650, annie is 625. Viegar and trist are 525 and 550 respectively, so that somewhat explains your issues with those two champs(though tristana's passive evens this out around level 7 or so). A lot of the older casters like morgana and karthus have 400-450ish range auto attacks, which would make them pretty terrible against anivia, or any of the other high range champs.
caitlyn is probably the only champ that i think has too much range, because she also has a snare that knocks her away from you and traps she can drop behind her, meaning she can kite basically any hero forever in a 1v1 situation. Gets really annoying.
ShadyMilkman
Banned
markot said:
uh
So played Poppy for the first time last night... what an incredibly easy character to use. Then tried Soraka... not quite sure how to build her. AP seemed to scale bad except when I got ranabananas.. that was a decent push. Also had a Warmogs on me since she was so squishy. Maybe I should of just stacked up on aura items?
Though hell could she creep kill.
Though hell could she creep kill.
What did you do/build with poppy versus champions? I really would like to know how to play her, but with no spellvamp, no lifesteal, no healing ability, and hardly any health it seems difficult to harass or farm lanes against anyone with distance poking attacks (brand, malphite, shaco, caitlyn, teemo, etc. etc.). Unless your lane partner can keep all of those out of range so you can hammer minions, or unless you're fighting against melee lane people...Ferrio said:
Blizzard said:
Well asking me is a bad choice since it was the first time. Geez... don't even know what I got.
Think it was Trinity, Sheen, Warmogs (think i could of done without if i'd used her ult properly), then started working on Infinity Edge. Pretty much the suggested items. Usually go off them when first trying a character.
And ya, my lane partner was helping harass quite a bit. Also the team we fought was reallllly stupid.
Ferrio said:
AP does scale pretty terribly on soraka, plus in order to get the AP you need to be effective you would have to take the last hit gold from a champion that could benefit more from the items. Build her with support items. I start with just a faerie charm and a bunch of wards and pots, go philo stone, boots, heart of gold, mercs treads in the early game, building towards shurelya's, frozen heart, maybe aegis of legion, if the game goes really late i'll get a randuin's to hit the CDR cap and give me tons of team buff auras.
Whatever you do, don't get a warmog's. warmog's is a pretty shitty item on most champs (as in everyone except maybe shen and mundo situationally). Get rod of ages followed by rylais if you go straight AP and you should have plenty of hp..
SouthernDragon
Member
I hate Soraka. HATE HATE HATE
Achtius said:
I hate snowball items on almost any champ, but warmog's isn't really a true snowball item, as anyone could fill it up pretty much, cause it fills on minions and you don't lose stacks.. Warmog's is just a shitty item because hp isn't all that great of a stat after a certain point.
Warmogs gives health restoration though, which could be nice if you're not constantly doing enough AD damage for something like a bloodthirster to heal you.iamblades said:
I've heard both sides. Some people (here) are apparently saying warmogs is a bad item, and I've heard someone else say all tanks should have it and stacking armor and magic resist has diminishing returns after a certain point and you should build health instead.
I figure the solution is for me to assume everyone else is clueless and I'm an expert, so I don't have to worry about who to trust. ;p
SouthernDragon
Member
I don't really think it's a question about Warmog's being good or not. It's when you need to get it.
Tanks should usually get some item that combines health + armor or magres. Once you have one of each, Warmog's should be appropriate.
I don't get it on Jarvan because Trinity Force/Frozen Mallet + Banshee's Veil leaves me over 3k health + I'll have Wriggle's, Mercury Treads, Veil, and Guardian Angel to give me armor/magres.
Tanks should usually get some item that combines health + armor or magres. Once you have one of each, Warmog's should be appropriate.
I don't get it on Jarvan because Trinity Force/Frozen Mallet + Banshee's Veil leaves me over 3k health + I'll have Wriggle's, Mercury Treads, Veil, and Guardian Angel to give me armor/magres.
dragonlife
Member
I fucking laughed my ass off. Seriously. Haha.HappyPuppy said:
Anyway, here you go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=610HeB0z4Dk&feature=related
There's five parts, so make sure to watch them all!
Ferrio said:
HP isn't nearly as good as damage reduction until you get well into diminishing returns at 200+ armor and MR, and regen is basically useless outside of the first 10 minutes. Every 100 points of armor and MR = 50% damage reduction, and you can get roughly 100 armor and MR for the price of one warmog's. Unless one warmog's is going to double your hp(which would only really be true on the squishiest of characters before level 14 or so), it's clear that the armor and MR is a better option.
There are things like true damage abilities that make HP more useful than armor/mr and there are things like madred's that scales based on the target's hp that makes MR more useful, but in most cases damage reduction > hp.
It is better to get hp from items that also do something else beneficial for you like a banshee's or rod of ages than it is to build a whole 3000 gold item that does nothing but give you hp. Point is, you need some balance to your build and warmog's provides none.. an 8000 hp tank with 80 armor and MR is going to die waaay faster than a 3.5k hp tank with 250/250
Warmogs may be nice as a 6th item on tanks if a game goes like 1 hr +(mostly because you'll run out of good efficient armor/MR items to buy), but most games never go that long, so for most situations, warmog's is shitty.
SouthernDragon
Member
I'd agree with everything except the regen comment. Mid to Late game, when it consists largely of team fights and wandering around between team fights, a good amount of regen will allow you to continue farming or clearing objectives. It's pretty important to me, anyways, as it prevents unnecessary trips back to the fountain.
Fjord said:
atmog's is a pretty niche case though.
I don't like ionian boots on soraka though, makes her too squishy and ccable IMO. Only champion i usually get ionian boots on is zilean, because I build him AP heavy, so he doesn't get the other CDR items. Everyone else is either merc treads or ninja tabi, rarely sorc shoes if i wanna play a super squishy glass cannon.
Go merc treads, frozen heart and shurelya's will put you at the CDR cap anyway if you have any runes for CDR. Will take longer, but it is much better in the long run.
Just to be clear:
THERE IS NO DIMINISHING RETURNS ON ARMOR/MAGIC RESIST.
Ahem.
Armor/MR will always increase your effective health at the same rate. 1 Armor/MR increases your Effective Health by 1%. Armor/MR does not become weaker once you go past a certain point. The effective health increase is LINEAR.
True, the damage reduction gets less and less, but the Armor/MR will be as useful as the point before it.
On topic:
Warmog's is really only good on champions with high built in Armor/Mres (not many champions) and tanky dps who can farm the warmogs (LeeSin, GP, Garen etc.) and are going to buy Atma's impaler afterwards. Warmog's isn't a terrible item - it used to be much, much worse and I think many people's abbhorence of it is connected to that period.
Effective Health (EH) is essentially all the damage you can take. Its given by EH = HP x (1 + Resistance/100). To maximise EH you'd want to raise both HP and Resistance, not just one - which what Warmogs does. (This is also the reason why a Thornmail seems weak on low hp targets). Ironically, the 8000 HP 80/80 resistances tank will live longer than the 3500 HP 250/250 tank.
To show how poor warmog's is as a first item: Warmogs (fully stacked) gives 1370 HP and 45 HP5. Lets say its a 30s team fight. Thats 1640 HP. Take Shen for example. At level 18 he has 1958 HP. 100 Armor would have increased his HP by 1958, which is more than the Warmogs. [this also shows how useless HP regen is for team fights]
Also, tanks not only take forever to get the warmog's, but also take a while to max it to full stacks (100 minions - 10 for each assist/kill).
ALSO - SORAKA BUILD:
Philo
boots r1
wardsss
hog
(Kage if youre getting rich somehow)
omg wards
ionian boots
Rabadon's Deathcap
omg wards
shurelias if you have to
game should be over now
-if you're getting cc'ed as support soraka, you're doing it wrong.
-how the hell do you have enough gold to build AA and Frozen heart?
-Soraka's ult scales so well with AP that you should go for the big ticket AP item - Deathcap. AA only gives you 115 AP when it is fully stacked, compared to the 182 of Deathcap.
THERE IS NO DIMINISHING RETURNS ON ARMOR/MAGIC RESIST.
Ahem.
Armor/MR will always increase your effective health at the same rate. 1 Armor/MR increases your Effective Health by 1%. Armor/MR does not become weaker once you go past a certain point. The effective health increase is LINEAR.
True, the damage reduction gets less and less, but the Armor/MR will be as useful as the point before it.
On topic:
Warmog's is really only good on champions with high built in Armor/Mres (not many champions) and tanky dps who can farm the warmogs (LeeSin, GP, Garen etc.) and are going to buy Atma's impaler afterwards. Warmog's isn't a terrible item - it used to be much, much worse and I think many people's abbhorence of it is connected to that period.
Effective Health (EH) is essentially all the damage you can take. Its given by EH = HP x (1 + Resistance/100). To maximise EH you'd want to raise both HP and Resistance, not just one - which what Warmogs does. (This is also the reason why a Thornmail seems weak on low hp targets). Ironically, the 8000 HP 80/80 resistances tank will live longer than the 3500 HP 250/250 tank.
To show how poor warmog's is as a first item: Warmogs (fully stacked) gives 1370 HP and 45 HP5. Lets say its a 30s team fight. Thats 1640 HP. Take Shen for example. At level 18 he has 1958 HP. 100 Armor would have increased his HP by 1958, which is more than the Warmogs. [this also shows how useless HP regen is for team fights]
Also, tanks not only take forever to get the warmog's, but also take a while to max it to full stacks (100 minions - 10 for each assist/kill).
ALSO - SORAKA BUILD:
Philo
boots r1
wardsss
hog
(Kage if youre getting rich somehow)
omg wards
ionian boots
Rabadon's Deathcap
omg wards
shurelias if you have to
game should be over now
-if you're getting cc'ed as support soraka, you're doing it wrong.
-how the hell do you have enough gold to build AA and Frozen heart?
-Soraka's ult scales so well with AP that you should go for the big ticket AP item - Deathcap. AA only gives you 115 AP when it is fully stacked, compared to the 182 of Deathcap.
Boken said:
Agree with this generally, but I still feel much safer with merc treads than ionian boots, occasionally i do some stupid shit I want to be able to survive.
I also should have edited my post to say that there are no true diminishing returns on armor/MR for effective health, just that it can appear to be diminishing returns relatively speaking, as they are multiplicative. Take 2x2=4 add 2 to one side you get 2x4=8, but add 1 to each side you get 3x3=9. That's the basic math of the warmog's situation, in a dumbed down 1st grade kind of way. You get more value if both sides of the equation improve than if just one side does.
So I took the advice someone gave a few pages back on how to build Wukong, and I have to say I really think hes an underrated champion. The last 14 games or so I have absolutely dominated with him, often getting scores with a 9-1 K/D + a ton of assists. He definitely lacks sustainability, but his decoy makes up for it to the point where I would argue you could replace flash with another summoner ability if you wanted to. Not to mention it doubles as a fantastic team fight initiator if your opponents are twitchy. Having 4+ players waste their abilities on a Nimbus Strike+Decoy combo pretty much ensures you're going to come out on top.
His only real downside is that almost all of his damage seems to come from Nimbus Strike+Crushing Blow hit and run tactics. Sure you get an attack speed bonus afterwards, but he doesn't have enough health to eat a volley of spells nor does he do damage fast enough to stand up to most of the other melee champs. I'd be interested to see how a reduced cooldown and bonus mana build would work with him because of this, but I'm not sure sacrificing armor pen or damage items would be worth it.
Also AOE knock up is useful in just about every situation.
Edit: You're
His only real downside is that almost all of his damage seems to come from Nimbus Strike+Crushing Blow hit and run tactics. Sure you get an attack speed bonus afterwards, but he doesn't have enough health to eat a volley of spells nor does he do damage fast enough to stand up to most of the other melee champs. I'd be interested to see how a reduced cooldown and bonus mana build would work with him because of this, but I'm not sure sacrificing armor pen or damage items would be worth it.
Also AOE knock up is useful in just about every situation.
Edit: You're
iamblades said:Agree with this generally, but I still feel much safer with merc treads than ionian boots, occasionally i do some stupid shit I want to be able to survive.
I agree with you about the boots. Too much cdr on Soraka makes it too easy to be low on mana when you need it. I'd rather have the tenacity and extra MR.
Also, what Teemo build do you guys go for?
Pure AP?
AS/onhit/DPS-ish?
AP/AD hybrid?
I'm experimenting.
SouthernDragon
Member
Blizzard said:
Well, yeah, we were talking about tanks, so I agree with you. Lifesteal would only work on "tanks" like Jarvan.
Which I also include
Volimar said:
Don't play teemo, so I have no idea, he is one of the champs you can build anyway you want.
I think the most annoying teemos i've played against would be an AP teemo that spams mushrooms everywhere. Those traps scale surprisingly well with AP. nothing worse than retreating from a push through the jungle at like 500 hp and getting blown the fuck up by a shroom.
Crazy attack speed heroes are fun as well though. I play heavy AS trynd sometimes, he swings that giant sword so fast..
Wukong isn't a bad champion. He actually has useful skills. While the double is obvious, it breaks the lock exactly like Aki's skill. His ult does damage and has CC. He has a lunge.
He doesn't have the same burst as other melee characters, but he is no means weak fodder either.
He doesn't have the same burst as other melee characters, but he is no means weak fodder either.
iamblades said:Don't play teemo, so I have no idea, he is one of the champs you can build anyway you want.
I think the most annoying teemos i've played against would be an AP teemo that spams mushrooms everywhere. Those traps scale surprisingly well with AP. nothing worse than retreating from a push through the jungle at like 500 hp and getting blown the fuck up by a shroom.
Crazy attack speed heroes are fun as well though. I play heavy AS trynd sometimes, he swings that giant sword so fast..
Heh, teemo makes me wanna play techies in Dota. Absolute worst character in the game... but to me the most fun. If you don't know, techies skills are pretty much nothing but laying different land mines around (much like teemos mushroom). It's hilarious mining up the whole map, and neutral mob spots.
Yeah, Teemo almost certainly isn't as good as other AD characters, though he's decent with attack damage and speed, but I feel like the most amusing way is nuclear mushrooms for teams who don't have oracles. I really ought to unlock him if I haven't already, I enjoyed playing around with AP.
I can't think of a single situation where you would actually build for health regen. It is a stat that is useless in team fights, and has its sustain significance drop off a cliff after the early game. It is a side effect of building other items you actually want. Because of this, Warmog's is a pretty poor item on 99% of champions, especially when you start to look at what other items you could buy for a similar cost.Blizzard said:
If you're aren't dealing a lot of AD it means you are probably a tank, and if you're not being useless you probably jungled, so you're going to have a Wriggles and the lifesteal off that will be enough. Where Warmog's or other health regen items might be useful is high damage melee targets who wade into fights like Renekton, but again, you'll get more use out of a lower cost Spirit Visage, the MR/movespeed of FoN, the slow/HP of Frozen Mallet, or the Armor/HP/passive of a Sunfire, etc. It is notable that you can pick up something like Spirit Visage on champions like Renekton for half the price of Warmog's anyways and do tons more with it.
HappyPuppy
Member
dragonlife said:I fucking laughed my ass off. Seriously. Haha.
Anyway, here you go
Much obliged Mr., didn't know there was Dominion gameplay
.You didn't confirm my suspicion, tell me so we can start a fan club
. He cut his hair : /FutureZombie
Banned
I like Teemo a lot in the late game. He does a deceptive amount of damage thanks to his poison. Plus he can shoot so fast he's good for on-hit items. Damage over time is great in this game because people often wait until the last possible second to leave combat. And if there's still damage hitting them out of combat, they're going to die.
Soraka with a heal and frozen heart is over 300 armour, that isn't squishy. Unlike melee characters you don't really care about slows so I don't usually feel the merc treads are necessary (enough stun/silence will still convince me to get them in some games). The biggest thing about archangel staff is that it gives you 25mp5 and doubles your mana pool, you can't starfall without some regen. Philo stone/HoG is a really slow start. You're a great farmer with a heal and mana regen, why would you need those items? Her ult is not a reason to stack AP, 0.7 ratio applied every few minutes?
Warmog's provides sustain, it lets you skip lifesteal on several characters.
Warmog's provides sustain, it lets you skip lifesteal on several characters.
dragonlife
Member
Just look at the guy. Is there any need for suspicion? It should be obviousHappyPuppy said:Much obliged Mr., didn't know there was Dominion gameplay
You didn't confirm my suspicion, tell me so we can start a fan club
Suspicion confirmed
I like him with the short hair. But I also liked him with the longer hair (which is how I first saw him when I was watching some tournament stuff). It's always nice having eye candy while watching things you enjoy.
dragonlife
Member
Servers are getting hammered. Couldn't do a Co-op VS AI game with a friend. Endless loading and errors, lagged purchase records, etc.
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