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[red13th]

A second Caitlyn (and Graves and Kog'maw) nerf, oh boy. I need to stop having favorite champions at this rate. Presumably Cait wasn't even the best!

Kog is, but he's getting nerfed too
If they deleted Caitlyn, Sona and Irelia the game would be so much more enjoyable.

 

[ElectraStar]

"This is a tournament patch, so we don't want to change too much. We are only changing most of the ranged AD carries, and all of the summoner spells and masteries. You know, the important stuff."

 

[Flare]

Wow that's some really good stuff. Wasn't expecting master changes - now the question is when is all of it coming out. My guess is the start of season two, which I'm thinking may start in December.

Edit: Also we're approaching the post limit in this thread aren't we?

 

[Blizzard]

Kog is, but he's getting nerfed too
If they deleted Caitlyn, Sona and Irelia the game would be so much more enjoyable.

But Caitlyn lost most of her games in say, IEM, Kog'maw is presumably better overall, and I enjoy playing Caitlyn. Have you tried playing her? What do you hate about her? And you'd leave champions like Akali, Lee Sin, Tryndamere, Talon, Sion, and Graves in the game? >_> (oh, Sion got a nerf too)

I'm convinced that Riot is dead set on nerfing all my favorite champions so I can't do anything but buy newly released 6300 champions before they're nerfed. I mean, they may nerf lots of other champions, but I conveniently ignore that unless they're my favorite. My only glimmer of hope will be if they ever un-nerf someone they already nerfed, but that may take 3-4 months before it reverts it. Rayven, is there ever any consideration to un-nerfing someone when they become almost totally unused and ineffective?

Next up, I expect Teemo, Warwick, and Annie nerfs, at which point I will have to quit the game forever. :'(

 

[thestopsign]

I'm extremely excited for these mastery changes. They are exactly what is needed. I've been dealing with those same masteries for over two years now and it was time for a change. I'm probably one of the few people that never kept the same style of 21-0-9 or 9-0-21 or whatever the typical one was. I normally specialized per what I was doing I often would end up with 9-9-12 or 1-8-21 (jungle allows me to use smite 3 times for every 2 times a normal person would). Spellcasters I would often go 9-6-15 to grab increased armor and magic resist.

This should add for lots of interesting new strategies and it looks like coordination might be key for something like the -10 tower armor (only one person needs it) and a support can really decide between the defensive tree and utility tree, which is great.

 

[thestopsign]

But Caitlyn lost most of her games in say, IEM, Kog'maw is presumably better overall, and I enjoy playing Caitlyn. Have you tried playing her? What do you hate about her? And you'd leave champions like Akali, Lee Sin, Tryndamere, Talon, Sion, and Graves in the game? >_> (oh, Sion got a nerf too)

I'm convinced that Riot is dead set on nerfing all my favorite champions so I can't do anything but buy newly released 6300 champions before they're nerfed. I mean, they may nerf lots of other champions, but I conveniently ignore that unless they're my favorite. My only glimmer of hope will be if they ever un-nerf someone they already nerfed, but that may take 3-4 months before it reverts it. Rayven, is there ever any consideration to un-nerfing someone when they become almost totally unused and ineffective?

Next up, I expect Teemo, Warwick, and Annie nerfs, at which point I will have to quit the game forever. :'(

Cait was pretty clearly overpowered if paired with any sort of support bot. Pros might know how to deal with her better than most people out there, but her range just really fucks up most pubs bot. A very deserved nerf (not sure what it is yet though).

They won't ever nerf WW, I think he's one of the most balanced champs in the game. He's pretty easy to counter, yet really easy to dominate with him in both the lane and jungle.

 

[Blizzard]

Cait was pretty clearly overpowered if paired with any sort of support bot. Pros might know how to deal with her better than most people out there, but her range just really fucks up most pubs bot. A very deserved nerf (not sure what it is yet though).

They won't ever nerf WW, I think he's one of the most balanced champs in the game. He's pretty easy to counter, yet really easy to dominate with him in both the lane and jungle.

If Cait was overpowered, what about xerath's range, or Kog'maw's range with boost and ult, or Tristana's boosted range?

This is just the second time they've nerfed Caitlyn in like, a 4-day period (or a 4-week period, same difference). I'm sure the third time will show up in like 2 more weeks and be massive, reducing her to Sivir tier. ;(

Did you play Caitlyn much?

 

[bjaelke]

Kog is, but he's getting nerfed too
If they deleted Caitlyn, Sona and Irelia the game would be so much more enjoyable.

Sona's too mana dependent. Don't really understand why they have to nerf her (although we could be looking at small and insignificant nerfs).

Wow that's some really good stuff. Wasn't expecting master changes - now the question is when is all of it coming out. My guess is the start of season two, which I'm thinking may start in December.

Edit: Also we're approaching the post limit in this thread aren't we?

Masteries will be in the Fizz patch next week, but I think season 2 will start after the qualifiers for IEM Kiev are concluded. You can't just implement changes like that and expect everyone to adapt right away, so I think a two-three week window would be appropriate between the Fizz patch and the start of season 2.

 

[thestopsign]

If Cait was overpowered, what about xerath's range, or Kog'maw's range with boost and ult, or Tristana's boosted range?

This is just the second time they've nerfed Caitlyn in like, a 4-day period (or a 4-week period, same difference). I'm sure the third time will show up in like 2 more weeks and be massive, reducing her to Sivir tier. ;(

Did you play Caitlyn much?

Yes, and she was clearly a step ahead of every other AD carry except maybe KogMaw and Graves.

 

[Veritas_]

Add me to the list of Caitlyn nerf QQ-ers. I saved up all 6300 IP to pick her up, so I could have a strong AD carry to push me through ranked games. I unlock her, pickup the Safari skin, then about a week later she gets double nerfed. Pretty much the same thing happened with Talon, I saved up and bought him just for him to get nerfed immediately afterwards. I would say 'screw it' and just play support forever, but we all know where that is going...

;_;

She really isn't stronger then any other AD carry. She has a safe and easy early game farm, but has weaker teamfight presence then Ashe or Trist in terms of utility. Graves and Kog can do considerably more burst, etc. I really wish Riot would just buff up the 'weaker' champs instead of nerfing everyone else down to their level.

 

[Boken]

Time to go back to Tristana.

Teemo isnt even a real AD carry. He's as much as an AD carry as Annie is one.

Its also a bit sad to not see Sivir buffed, but she's very dangerous to. She has the potential to be sooooo strong. Riot is better off fixing the simpler AD carries for now.

(please nerf graves more. Jesus christ.)

 

[Blizzard]

Add me to the list of Caitlyn nerf QQ-ers. I saved up all 6300 IP to pick her up, so I could have a strong AD carry to push me through ranked games. I unlock her, pickup the Safari skin, then about a week later she gets double nerfed. Pretty much the same thing happened with Talon, I saved up and bought him just for him to get nerfed immediately afterwards. I would say 'screw it' and just play support forever, but we all know where that is going...

;_;

She really isn't stronger then any other AD carry. She has a safe and easy early game farm, but has weaker teamfight presence then Ashe or Trist in terms of utility. Graves and Kog can do considerably more burst, etc. I really wish Riot would just buff up the 'weaker' champs instead of nerfing everyone else down to their level.

I agree about buffing weaker champions instead of nerfing down and never undoing it, especially if that forces you to buy 6300 IP champions. Cait was my favorite, the first 6300 champion I bought, and the double nerf is happening. I liked Talon but he got nerfed before I even bought him.

Teemo and Sivir not getting buffed at all is kind of funny.

 

[Vanillalite]

Add me to the list of Caitlyn nerf QQ-ers. I saved up all 6300 IP to pick her up, so I could have a strong AD carry to push me through ranked games. I unlock her, pickup the Safari skin, then about a week later she gets double nerfed. Pretty much the same thing happened with Talon, I saved up and bought him just for him to get nerfed immediately afterwards. I would say 'screw it' and just play support forever, but we all know where that is going...

;_;

She really isn't stronger then any other AD carry. She has a safe and easy early game farm, but has weaker teamfight presence then Ashe or Trist in terms of utility. Graves and Kog can do considerably more burst, etc. I really wish Riot would just buff up the 'weaker' champs instead of nerfing everyone else down to their level.

I've thought this way for the past couple of months now, but it seems Riot disagrees with us all. While there have been some egregious OP characters in general I'd rather see them buff up the bottom tier than nerd the mid/top tier.

 

[Veritas_]

Do any of you do GAF ranked games together? I could use a couple good duo partners, 1300-1400 range.

On an unrelated note, Jungle Riven is really really fun.

 

[AcridMeat]

I've thought this way for the past couple of months now, but it seems Riot disagrees with us all. While there have been some egregious OP characters in general I'd rather see them buff up the bottom tier than nerd the mid/top tier.

Exactly. What's more fun, having everyone at a higher ability/threat level where positioning and coordination are more of a priority, or being stuck with a baseline set by champions years old? I think their desire to have people buy new champions as they come out is showing through a bit with this and it's kind of dirty. I don't like transparency.

It's pretty ridiculous IMO.

I do like the mastery changes at least.

 

[thestopsign]

Do any of you do GAF ranked games together? I could use a couple good duo partners, 1300-1400 range.

On an unrelated note, Jungle Riven is really really fun.

I do Ranked, mostly duoing with a friend in real life. I'm in the low 1400s most of the time. If I'm up for a game I can play with you (I'm Chronos in game).

 

[Haly]

Having OP champions is more detrimental to players' enjoyment of the game than having underpowered champions.

Champ X is useless? Don't play him.

Champ Y is OP? Well you either pick him or hope he doesn't get picked or he gets banned. Very little control over your own enjoyment of the game in this scenario.

Not that I agree with it but it's obvious why they do it, same for most popular online games really.

 

[Vanillalite]

Exactly. What's more fun, having everyone at a higher ability/threat level where positioning and coordination are more of a priority, or being stuck with a baseline set by champions years old? I think their desire to have people buy new champions as they come out is showing through a bit with this and it's kind of dirty. I don't like transparency.

It's pretty ridiculous IMO.

I do like the mastery changes at least.

I wasn't of this mindset at 1st, but you can count me in on this train of thought now.

Oh wells everyone's just waiting for DOTA2 anyways. 3 of my LoL buddies are in now, but I'm not yet. *goes and cries in a corner alone*

 

[Vanillalite]

Having OP champions is more detrimental to players' enjoyment of the game than having underpowered champions.

Champ X is useless? Don't play him.

Champ Y is OP? Well you either pick him or hope he doesn't get picked or he gets banned. Very little control over your own enjoyment of the game in this scenario.

Not that I agree with it but it's obvious why they do it, same for most popular online games really.

The champs won't be as OP if the crappy champs get a buff. It levels the playing field so to speak, but it just puts the main level up higher rather than down lower.

 

[Blizzard]

Does anyone else feel more powerful masteries will make the game more random since you can't counterpick them and you won't know what the champion you're up against has?

Also, I think I've just lost 3 games in a row against teams with no junglers. I am not doing well at all.

 

[Inskipp]

Does anyone else feel more powerful masteries will make the game more random since you can't counterpick them and you won't know what the champion you're up against has?

I don't see how this affects counter-picking. You have access to the same masteries as the opponent. You'll both have just as equal strength in that regard.

 

[Haly]

The champs won't be as OP if the crappy champs get a buff. It levels the playing field so to speak, but it just puts the main level up higher rather than down lower.

Usually, when a Champ is called OP, it's because they can kill multiple people without dying, or if they have some unreasonable sustain. It presents a frustrating time for players fighting against those champions, like release Xin Zhao/Vlad.

If EVERY champ was buffed to those levels it would be like playing DOTA, which Riot clearly wants to avoid.

 

[bjaelke]

Yes, and she was clearly a step ahead of every other AD carry except maybe KogMaw and Graves.

Vayne's up there, if not above Caitlyn.

 

[Princess Carl]

I don't see how this affects counter-picking. You have access to the same masteries as the opponent. You'll both have just as equal strength in that regard.

These changes only confirm that getting to 30 takes too long. Masteries are way too important now.

 

[Princess Carl]

Vayne's up there, if not above Caitlyn.

Against a soraka and cait, vayne can never get close enough to do any dmg and will get silenced if she tries to roll.

Cait was the best ranged before the upcoming patch. interested to see how that changes.

 

[Blizzard]

Against a soraka and cait, vayne can never get close enough to do any dmg and will get silenced if she tries to roll.

Cait was the best ranged before the upcoming patch. interested to see how that changes.

If Cait was the best ranged, why did Kog'maw do better in general (I thought, including the IEM tourney)? I thought Kog'maw had more range and utility (buffed range, ult for vision, different build options, etc).

I don't see how this affects counter-picking. You have access to the same masteries as the opponent. You'll both have just as equal strength in that regard.

The thing is you won't know which your opponent has, and it will presumably make more of a difference than it does now. You might see a support champion and be like well, if they have ultra defensive mastery whatever, I can counter them this way, but if they have this other mastery set, I counter them a different way. I just figured it would make more unknowns show up but I may be mistaken.

 

[bjaelke]

CLG playing v8 now in the Kiev qualifiers: http://www.own3d.tv/live/13574/CLGaming.net_-_HotshotGG

Against a soraka and cait, vayne can never get close enough to do any dmg and will get silenced if she tries to roll.

Cait was the best ranged before the upcoming patch. interested to see how that changes.

Vayne + Taric can shut down Caitlyn and Soraka.

 

[Vanillalite]

These changes only confirm that getting to 30 takes too long. Masteries are way too important now.

In terms of normal game balance it's been like that since day 1 IMO. The difference between being 30 with a full mastery tree + rune page verses a similar character @ level 15 is a big difference now. This only exacerbates the situation, but it's always been there.

Getting to 30 faster kills Riot selling those XP boosts though.

 

[brian!]

The thing is you won't know which your opponent has, and it will presumably make more of a difference than it does now. You might see a support champion and be like well, if they have ultra defensive mastery whatever, I can counter them this way, but if they have this other mastery set, I counter them a different way. I just figured it would make more unknowns show up but I may be mistaken.

Well masteries are more for your own champ and how you want to play them. I'm not sure if they are revamping the entire system (those icons?) but its pretty easy to see which characters have taken which masteries atm (kennen has a buttload of hp? probably defensive mastery. Dude is jungling? Probably exp and buff masteries. That guy is running with the quickness? etc.)

An "ultra defensive" mastery would help the support stay alive in lane, but it won't break the game (unless Riot bungles it pretty badly)

 

[Vanillalite]

I don't see how this affects counter-picking. You have access to the same masteries as the opponent. You'll both have just as equal strength in that regard.

We need to see the trees 1st, but I'd agree with Blizzard in theory. It's not about access, but about the fact that certain characters will have different counters depending upon mastery trees which would change up play styles.

This all gets back to a nice point made above though...

Usually, when a Champ is called OP, it's because they can kill multiple people without dying, or if they have some unreasonable sustain. It presents a frustrating time for players fighting against those champions, like release Xin Zhao/Vlad.

If EVERY champ was buffed to those levels it would be like playing DOTA, which Riot clearly wants to avoid.

This is the key here. It seems Riot doesn't want the game to be more DOTA/HON like. They just want it to be sort of a big spread of different champs all playing differently, and they don't want to much OP parity going on. So they just keep increasing the ways people can differentiate things.

They don't want everyone using the same champs, same masteries, and same summoner spells (ie flash) so they keep adding in more and more champs, changing up the masteries, and trying to reformat the summoner spells.

Well masteries are more for your own champ and how you want to play them. I'm not sure if they are revamping the entire system (those icons?) but its pretty easy to see which characters have taken which masteries atm (kennen has a buttload of hp? probably defensive mastery. Dude is jungling? Probably exp and buff masteries. That guy is running with the quickness? etc.)

An "ultra defensive" mastery would help the support stay alive in lane, but it won't break the game (unless Riot bungles it pretty badly)

Will you be able to tell all of that from the summoner select screen though? Does you no good if you figure it out in game as the whole point is for the pick/counter pick/banning during the selection process.

 

[brian!]

I don't think it makes sense to think of masteries as any sort of "countering". Of course, I am thinking about them in the context of how they work now, none of us will know if there are new masteries.

The masteries now only serve to enhance certain aspects of the game. Going "defense" usually means better lane survivability, though many take 9 for the dodge masteries. Going "offense" is usually the 15% for ap carries, or the additional dmg for late game carries (often really not that much).

I mean, there is no place where you can "counter" any of these choices before the game begins; all of your pregame rune/mastery choices are made to enhance how you want to play your own character, in conjunction with predicting who you will lane against (ex. see singed with tele? better put some mr runes, ms, or something if I'm going top). This only helps you a little bit, outplaying someone will always make you win.

 

[Legato.Reborn-]

We need to see the trees 1st, but I'd agree with Blizzard in theory. It's not about access, but about the fact that certain characters will have different counters depending upon mastery trees which would change up play styles.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/masteries-season-two

?

 

[SouthernDragon]

They don't want everyone using the same champs, same masteries, and same summoner spells (ie flash) so they keep adding in more and more champs, changing up the masteries, and trying to reformat the summoner spells.

They definitely need more item variability, then.

 

[Archie]

Activating items is anti-fun.

 

[brian!]

I don't really understand what they are trying to do here I guess

So many tower specific masteries + promote. Are these even trees? It looks mix and matchable.

 

[Vanillalite]

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/masteries-season-two

?

Sorry I saw the post on the official page about the change, but never saw the list. Thanks for that!

 

[Inskipp]

I don't really understand what they are trying to do here I guess

So many tower specific masteries + promote. Are these even trees? It looks mix and matchable.

I only see two single-point masteries related to towers. Three if you count the garrison- thing.


I really like how the new masteries are looking. So many different possibilities.

 

[Blizzard]

Ferrio was jungle Shyvana, and I'm like, psh, I refuse to not jungle if you're doing Shyvana, her ult is all broken. And he was like psh, I refuse to change. So we stubbornly sat there until the game started and double jungled.

They surrendered after 20 minutes.

Spoiler

They had 3 kills and Shyvana of course did way better than Warwick, but it was still funny.

 

[Rayven]

CLG vs TSM is coming up. Most of them are streaming on own3d.

 

[Swig_]

Ferrio was jungle Shyvana, and I'm like, psh, I refuse to not jungle if you're doing Shyvana, her ult is all broken. And he was like psh, I refuse to change. So we stubbornly sat there until the game started and double jungled.

They surrendered after 20 minutes.

Spoiler

They had 3 kills and Shyvana of course did way better than Warwick, but it was still funny.

I had a game like this.. lol. I chose Udyr, had smite and said "jungle" first thing when I joined the game. Some other guy grabbed another jungler and said he was jungling. I don't put up with the 12 year olds that play this game and whine when they don't get what they want, so i ignored him and went on my merry way when the game started. He both fought over our jungle, but somehow it worked and we dominated the other team, despite having 2 solo lanes. I should mention that at least 2 of the other players knew the other jungler, so they were on his side when he was trying to argue that he called jungle. So the entire game, they were being total jerks to me.

The whole game we were trying to steal each others' buffs and all that. Worst team/best game ever. I thought we were losing for sure.

 

[broz0rs]

I think what much of the ranged AD discussion is not taking into consideration is that the strength of these champs are different in early, middle, and late game.

Basically, champ abilities often work differently in various phases of the game. To give some examples, Caitlyn is a champ that can completely shut down a lane with her superior range and her yordle traps, which serves as a zoning tool. It's probably the best ability in lane for ranged AD's. Late game, she uses her yordle traps as a ward with limited vision. She's not as powerful late game, but her excellent AD scaling allows her to be competitive.

My favorite champ, Tristana, is basically a spellcaster in lane phase. She uses her W to escape or get a Super Mario jump on someone's face. Her E is basically a weak ignite and does an okay job with harrassing. Once she gets R, she can burst for 600. Her late game is completely different as it completely revolves around positioning and Q. Her W only is used for escapes or positioning and R serves as a peel or to knock back game changing channeled ults that can destroy your team.

 

[ElectraStar]

So I played jungle Nocturne today for the first time in ages, and boy, did I forget how much fun he is!! It's such a rush to ult some sucker out of position.

And I think that my jungling skills have gotten better (I ended up with a 10/4/12) just by playing with GAFers who jungle (that's you, Rizzle!!)

 

[Devin Olsen]

A friend and I are hanging out playing League... Nothing high level, just fun.

Watch if you'd like!

twitch.tv/devinolsen

 

[dimb]

Wow.

http://i.imgur.com/Ck6qe.jpg

 

[Jazzy Network]

Other team was pretty bad tho.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Bravo. What the hell happened to Bind, though? They nerfed Skarner?

 

[Achtius]

Bravo. What the hell happened to Bind, though? They nerfed Skarner?

they got no jungle, so 2 v 1 (akali and poppy, both burst like hell)
me and star completely push wukong and shen out of lane.

 

[ElectraStar]

they got no jungle, so 2 v 1 (akali and poppy, both burst like hell)
me and star completely push wukong and shen out of lane.

Yeah, we showed them!!

And I'm glad we left it on a high note, because you won;t be seeing me for a while :x

 

[Ferrio]

Think shyvana well be my default jungler. She's pretty good doing it as long as she had the reds. Also people saying she's a good anti-jungler were on the money.

 

[IsayFever]

Bravo. What the hell happened to Bind, though? They nerfed Skarner?

I got fucking raped. Won't happen anymore tho. I've retired