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League of Legends |OT12| No more Lyte, just darkness.

P

PhillipCostigan

Member
you should watch Ghostcrawler's monthly Q&A on the leagueoflegends twitch.

there was one last night. he spoke about the potential 10 ban system and said a snake ban system was likely for pro play
 
S

Stone Ocean

Member
BreezyLimbo said:
I told you guys abiut a staggered draft mode

But noooo breezy, league isnt those other games, it doesnt need it

Ill take my salt for the salt god.
Click to expand...
What

I've always been in 100% favor of staggered draft. I was just worried about more bans without it but if we get 10 bans and new draft its gonna be perfect.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
PhillipCostigan said:
you should watch Ghostcrawler's monthly Q&A on the leagueoflegends twitch.

there was one last night. he spoke about the potential 10 ban system and said a snake ban system was likely for pro play
Click to expand...

But costy

I thought rito didnt want to balance separately for pro play

Why the double standards and implement this only for pro play

Hypocrite Riot, no wonder theyre failing, sad!

Stone Ocean said:
What

I've always been in 100% favor of staggered draft. I was just worried about more bans without it but if we get 10 bans and new draft its gonna be perfect.
Click to expand...

Those people know who they are. They owe bigly salt!
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
Stone Ocean said:
Whatever they do, I hope both ranked and competitive get the same rules.
Click to expand...

And they should.

Theyve done balance changes based on either low or high elo, and only having a thing like staggered draft for high elo is not only unprecedented, but its foolish to do it separately.

It would be Riot calling their average playerbase stupid that they cant deal with staggered draft but pro players can.
 
Z

zkylon

zkylewd
it's too long, i've watched bits of those q&a's before but 90m is too much for me

there's interesting stuff in it but it's not 90m of interesting stuff because it's player questions with little curation

i kind of wish they did a small selection of the best of those and transcribed them, but they do talk about the same stuff elsewhere so it's not a big deal

Stone Ocean said:
Whatever they do, I hope both ranked and competitive get the same rules.
Click to expand...

agreed
 
P

PhillipCostigan

Member
BreezyLimbo said:
And they should.

Theyve done balance changes based on either low or high elo, and only having a thing like staggered draft for high elo is not only unprecedented, but its foolish to do it separately.

It would be Riot calling their average playerbase stupid that they cant deal with staggered draft but pro players can.
Click to expand...

Fwiw I would like formats to be mirrored between regular play and pro play.

Arguments against centre around the effect of snake draft being less valuable in regular, unorganised play and wanting to be careful of champion select time increases (an idea for regular play would be that everyone bans at the same time for example to reduce amount of time in champ select)

but ultimately this thing is still a while out and will likely change.

I agree tbh tho, let's, keep the formats the same.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
PhillipCostigan said:
Fwiw I would like formats to be mirrored between regular play and pro play.

Arguments against centre around the effect of snake draft being less valuable in regular, unorganised play and wanting to be careful of champion select time increases (an idea for regular play would be that everyone bans at the same time for example to reduce amount of time in champ select)

but ultimately this thing is still a while out and will likely change.

I agree tbh tho, let's, keep the formats the same.
Click to expand...

Costy you should disagree with me

How else will this thread remain interesting

~~~
Despite a time increase in lobby, staggered drsft should 100% be added because its simply better. And I would say that a longer pick/ban phase is good because by the time you get to the last ban, you become invested into the match that youre less likely to troll/dodge if something minor doesnt go your way.
 
Z

zkylon

zkylewd
yeah i'd be worried about champion select times cos it already feels really like too long

like that's like a minute more and if ppl dodge that's probably gonna feel super shitty

also i do agree there's a lot less value in this system in solo q and like it can 100% remove some champions from ever being played as well as like making players being completely shut down if u have a bit of bad luck, tho i guess snake draft helps a bit with this

honestly i think 3 bans is ok but that's just me

BreezyLimbo said:
Despite a time increase in lobby, staggered drsft should 100% be added because its simply better. And I would say that a longer pick/ban phase is good because by the time you get to the last ban, you become invested into the match that youre less likely to troll/dodge if something minor doesnt go your way.
Click to expand...

i think you're being way too optimistic here breezy haha
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
zkylon said:
i think you're being way too optimistic here breezy haha
Click to expand...

Nah its what Ive experienced in both dota and HotS. HotS for example, In the last 100 ranked games people haved dodged atleast 3 of them, and in the huge majority of games people always make an effort to pick up the slack if they dont get the picks they want.

Then again the League playerbase can be a bit special...
 
P

PhillipCostigan

Member
BreezyLimbo said:
Costy you should disagree with me

How else will this thread remain interesting

~~~
Despite a time increase in lobby, staggered drsft should 100% be added because its simply better. And I would say that a longer pick/ban phase is good because by the time you get to the last ban, you become invested into the match that youre less likely to troll/dodge if something minor doesnt go your way.
Click to expand...

so to play devil's advocate, since I know you like an argument breezy, champion select is already really long to the point that it's downright tilting when someone dodges, especially towards the end of champion select and worse when it happens multiple times in a row. The majority of players on all servers gravitate towards blind when they play normals because of the speed of entry to game (80 seconds I think? Can't quite remember but it's pretty short), the playerbase would dictate that they value speed of entry to games and maybe adding significant extra time to already long draft phases because of having a snake draft would further alienate players. Could probably shave seconds off each pick or something, but it's still really long.

Then there's the value of staggered bans. You likely know what you want and don't want to play against, and rarely are players in regular play putting together cohesive teams comps. Especially in solo queue, which is likely the most popular queue.

Therefore is the potentially minimal gain from snake draft in regular, unorganised play make the tradeoff of extremely long champion selects worth? Maybe to a very small subsection of players.

It's an interesting discussion and I don't know anything more than what Greg said last night, but interesting to talk about nonetheless.
 
killatopak

killatopak

Gold Member
I'm really amazed how the new locket is overlooked. It's so amazingly cheap. It's perfect for those low economy top and jungle champs. It sucks as a support item but it really shines in other lanes.
 
S

Stone Ocean

Member
Champ select takes too long because it takes too long - no really, bear with me. The time to lock in picks and bans is too long, we really don't need 30 seconds to communicate normal strategies specially with something like the pick intent system.

In fact, why not do this: add a ban intent system like pick intent, increase pre-draft time a tad so players can communicate if they feel like it and then cut pick/ban time in half.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
PhillipCostigan said:
so to play devil's advocate, since I know you like an argument breezy, champion select is already really long to the point that it's downright tilting when someone dodges, especially towards the end of champion select and worse when it happens multiple times in a row. The majority of players on all servers gravitate towards blind when they play normals because of the speed of entry to game (80 seconds I think? Can't quite remember but it's pretty short), the playerbase would dictate that they value speed of entry to games and maybe adding significant extra time to already long draft phases because of having a snake draft would further alienate players. Could probably shave seconds off each pick or something, but it's still really long.

Then there's the value of staggered bans. You likely know what you want and don't want to play against, and rarely are players in regular play putting together cohesive teams comps. Especially in solo queue, which is likely the most popular queue.

Therefore is the potentially minimal gain from snake draft in regular, unorganised play make the tradeoff of extremely long champion selects worth? Maybe to a very small subsection of players.

It's an interesting discussion and I don't know anything more than what Greg said last night, but interesting to talk about nonetheless.
Click to expand...

Ah but thats if you only talk about normals. I advocate for staggered draft in ranked, not normal draft.

For ranked play, people know what they are getting into. A more serious type of play, where getting into a game takes time, and usually there is a higher standard of play required. So its twofold in that if you give players staggered play, its appreciating their time because they can make picks/bans to counter their opponent and they feel good that they outsmarted the opponent.

It can also open up communication where there wasnt before. Before you would just communicate "ban this. Pick me that Ill trade you." now players can communicate and guess depending on what they pick or ban. "They picked X, we can ban out Y next to mess with their comp." then that happens, the enemy team picks a C-tier pick, and yiu and your team feel good about outplaying your opponent in the pick/ban phase. It becomes a small game before the game starts.

The potential of communication is too great to pass. Everyone wants to win when they play(except for asshats who are intent on losing), and giving someone the opportunity to communicate and outplay the opponent before the game starts is great. Itll likely increase communication and teamwork instead of being a detriment to it. Again, you will get meatheads that refuse to communicate and want to lose, but you shouldnt deny people something just because a few sourhats.
 
killatopak

killatopak

Gold Member
i feel like breezy's rank games is vastly different than mine.

I just check if I'm the one to pick then alt tab and watch some youtube vids or something. Even pros do that. There maybe times that I would wait for the bans and picks but only until I get to see what my lane opponent picks. Pre-game chat is a graveyard in most cases for me.

I'll even bet that between staggered bans and faster drafting, most people would prefer faster drafting.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
killatopak said:
i feel like breezy's rank games is vastly different than mine.

I just check if I'm the one to pick then alt tab and watch some youtube vids or something. Even pros do that. There maybe times that I would wait for the bans and picks but only until I get to see what my lane opponent picks. Pre-game chat is a graveyard in most cases for me.

I'll even bet that between staggered bans and faster drafting, most people would prefer faster drafting.
Click to expand...

In dota and hots maybe its because its full screen that forces your attention on it.

Quonny said:
I don't think he even plays the game anymore lul
Click to expand...

Waiting for preseason to be over, Im not crazy to step into that mess. So Im relating my experience from other games with staggered draft.
 
P

PhillipCostigan

Member
BreezyLimbo said:
Ah but thats if you only talk about normals. I advocate for staggered draft in ranked, not normal draft.

It can also open up communication where there wasnt before. Before you would just communicate "ban this. Pick me that Ill trade you." now players can communicate and guess depending on what they pick or ban. "They picked X, we can ban out Y next to mess with their comp." then that happens, the enemy team picks a C-tier pick, and yiu and your team feel good about outplaying your opponent in the pick/ban phase. It becomes a small game before the game starts.

The potential of communication is too great to pass. Everyone wants to win when they play(except for asshats who are intent on losing), and giving someone the opportunity to communicate and outplay the opponent before the game starts is great. Itll likely increase communication and teamwork instead of being a detriment to it. Again, you will get meatheads that refuse to communicate and want to lose, but you shouldnt deny people something just because a few sourhats.
Click to expand...

The drawbacks apply to ranked as well.

The reasons you provided are great for pro play, but what's the value to ranked? Ok, you have the snake draft system and you see the enemy team is a little squishy so you make a strategic choice to ban out Nautilus because he's easy-ish to play and really strong right now and would be a good tank to round our their comp in the top lane. But in reality this is solo queue, and their top laner is actually a Yasuo one-trick (and a good one!) and just shits on your team's Riven one-trick. So you spent all that extra time thinking you made a strategic decision in bans only for it to not matter anyway.

Solo queue doesn't work the way you think it does. You ban out the OPs and the onetricks because you're playing against unknowns that you have no prep on and can't realistically ban out.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
PhillipCostigan said:
The drawbacks apply to ranked as well.

The reasons you provided are great for pro play, but what's the value to ranked? Ok, you have the snake draft system and you see the enemy team is a little squishy so you make a strategic choice to ban out Nautilus because he's easy-ish to play and really strong right now and would be a good tank to round our their comp in the top lane. But in reality this is solo queue, and their top laner is actually a Yasuo one-trick (and a good one!) and just shits on your team's Riven one-trick. So you spent all that extra time thinking you made a strategic decision in bans only for it to not matter anyway.

Solo queue doesn't work the way you think it does. You ban out the OPs and the onetricks because you're playing against unknowns that you have no prep on and can't realistically ban out.
Click to expand...

I guess thats an issue with the meta being a bit stale than anything.

In dota and hots its easier to read what kind of team comp the enemy team is going for and what picks they would need to round it off. If they ban tank killers, for example, its easy to see that theyll go for a tanky comp and to ban out high value tanks.

The homogenized meta of league however doesnt allow for that, does it?
 
T

Talents

Banned
You know what Dota does have?

maxresdefault.jpg
Click to expand...
 
H

Hydrophobic

Member
Ahahahaha I was reading through the reddit thread on the potential new ban system and part of the way to the bottom I saw a few comments like this

Please dont do 10 bans its not a good idea for league i will never ever ever be able to play yasuo again just think about me for once
Click to expand...

I believe this is a feature, not an issue.
 
P

PhillipCostigan

Member
BreezyLimbo said:
I guess thats an issue with the meta being a bit stale than anything.

In dota and hots its easier to read what kind of team comp the enemy team is going for and what picks they would need to round it off. If they ban tank killers, for example, its easy to see that theyll go for a tanky comp and to ban out high value tanks.

The homogenized meta of league however doesnt allow for that, does it?
Click to expand...

maybe? I'm not going to pretend to know the in-and-outs of how Dota 2 ranked is played, but again fundamentally different games and the way ranked is played in League people prioritise small champion pools and their one-tricks because they want to climb and do it in an optimal way

I think if the issue was that League's meta was too homogenised the snake draft system would suck in competitive play too, but we all know it would be a significant improvement and help champion diversity. I just think there's a very fundamental difference between solo ranked and competitive play in League. People don't prioritise complementary compositions in solo ranked, even though the option is there. They want to play their mains and what they know.

so I don't really think it's because League's meta is stale/homogenised/whatever
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
PhillipCostigan said:
maybe? I'm not going to pretend to know the in-and-outs of how Dota 2 ranked is played, but again fundamentally different games and the way ranked is played in League people prioritise small champion pools and their one-tricks because they want to climb and do it in an optimal way

I think if the issue was that League's meta was too homogenised the snake draft system would suck in competitive play too, but we all know it would be a significant improvement and help champion diversity. I just think there's a very fundamental difference between solo ranked and competitive play in League. People don't prioritise complementary compositions in solo ranked, even though the option is there. They want to play their mains and what they know.

so I don't really think it's because League's meta is stale/homogenised/whatever
Click to expand...

When I say homogenized, I mean that a ranged carry/mage mid/bruiser top will always be needed.

In both dota and hots about the only things always required is a tank and support. There are double tank comps, and there are double support comps that can work in those, for example. Otherwise in those games, a ranged carry isnt always required in order to be able to compete, and usually any hero can take any lane(depending on playstyle for both hots/dota).

In league its a bit stagnant though. There is no room for variety. You ALWAYS need an adc/support bot. In mid you always need a mage/burst assassin. At top you always need a bruiser/tank. There is no room for experimentation or for a different type of playstyle. There are varied champions withing each lane, but they are interchangeable(and usually the most "op" within that role are priority picks at the time of play).

Thats what I mean by stale and homogenized. Its why I despise the meta and why I err on the side of the Singed player(for example) thats been a story on Reddit.

(When we previously talked about staggered draft, I brought up the fact that because of the homogenized meta, it is counter to staggered draft and where it wouldnt really work)
 
N

Nev

Banned
Camille looks good, I hope that boring shield isn't her ultimate though. Can't wait to die of laughter with the hentai too.
 
N

Nev

Banned
New client is complete trash. All they had to do was port the client to a non-cancerigenous platform. Instead they come up with this permanent friendlist crap.

I had to go back to the other client because this new shit was taking up to 100% CPU usage being minimized. 1 year of testing and they can't see how this is an issue? Jesus fucking christ they're surreal.
 
H

Hydrophobic

Member
Nev said:
New client is complete trash. All they had to do was port the client to a non-cancerigenous platform. Instead they come up with this permanent friendlist crap.

I had to go back to the other client because this new shit was taking up to 100% CPU usage being minimized. 1 year of testing and they can't see how this is an issue? Jesus fucking christ they're surreal.
Click to expand...

If it's actually taking 100% of your CPU while minimized, submit a bug report or something? That's not a small issue, and I didn't remember having the same problem in my client.
 
D

Dreams-Visions

Member
Nev said:
New client is complete trash. All they had to do was port the client to a non-cancerigenous platform. Instead they come up with this permanent friendlist crap.

I had to go back to the other client because this new shit was taking up to 100% CPU usage being minimized. 1 year of testing and they can't see how this is an issue? Jesus fucking christ they're surreal.
Click to expand...

My only problem with the new client is the handling of chat rooms. I really hate GAF chat being either hidden or really in the way.

Maybe you need to reinstall the client. I would.
 
C

clemenx

Banned
If 10 bans is happening 3 bans 1st round needs to go, if not it will be the same thing that we have now where a big group is basically 100% ban. I'd rather see a couple of ops fall through than having that big group of permabanned champs.

Have the 1st ban round be 1 or 2 bans. It should be 1-2-2 rather than 3-2
 
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