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League of Legends |OT12| No more Lyte, just darkness.
- Thread starter zkylon
- Start date
QuantumSquid
Member
Camille is broken as fuck.
Terbinator
Member
AS it turns out you're wrong. I've ended up with non-Sup twice and cunts the third time.
SenorArdilla
Member
Waiting for CertainlyT Warwick.
Orochinagis
Member
One win to get enough IP for Camille , ranked here I come
i found this interesting on reddit, this is the top 10 most difficult champions according to riot:
their point is that these champions are the ones with the most unique mechanics (as in, there's no other champion that plays like say rumble) so they have their own intransferrable mastery curve, but idk about that being the criteria
like why not put urgot there if that's gonna be the case or something
their point is that these champions are the ones with the most unique mechanics (as in, there's no other champion that plays like say rumble) so they have their own intransferrable mastery curve, but idk about that being the criteria
like why not put urgot there if that's gonna be the case or something
PhillipCostigan
Member
it's also not the only criteria (and a very valid one). experienced win rates vs non-experienced, churn rates (i.e. how many games before someone stops playing it), internal data etc. etc. etc.
you as an experienced League of Legends player may think differently.
I actually don't disagree with any of them. can't really think of any champion that's a glaring omission from that list.
you as an experienced League of Legends player may think differently.
I actually don't disagree with any of them. can't really think of any champion that's a glaring omission from that list.
eh, esoteric is different than difficult
PhillipCostigan
Member
and difficulty =/= mechanically intensive. for example, Rumble and Taliyah both use vector casting for an ability (Taliyah W and Rumble R). A very different cast paradigm that's somewhat difficult to use and leads to a lot of execution mistakes that makes those champions hard to pick up. They have notoriously low win rates for people playing them the first few times, and high churn rates meaning people don't stay with them long, despite both being ostensibly strong.
there are people with PhDs that are way smarter than I that look into this.
it's not about defending it, it's about giving more context behind it since it's a very data-informed metric.
Peanut Butter
Member
Gangplank? On the list of the top 10 most difficult champions?
Ahhhhhhhhhahahahahahaha
No.
Ahhhhhhhhhahahahahahaha
No.
PhillipCostigan
Member
let me see your GP and we'll see :^)
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Now classic GP was the hardest champion to play. No other character had an exp denial like he did, and you had to use him smartly 
Peanut Butter
Member
I'm pretty solid with GP. Not great by any means, but I actually found him to be one of the easiest champions to play after his rework.
edit: after a few games of figuring out how his barrels work. Once you get the concept of what his barrels can do, I don't see how he can be classified as difficult.
edit: after a few games of figuring out how his barrels work. Once you get the concept of what his barrels can do, I don't see how he can be classified as difficult.
yeah it's my bad for setting it up as "most difficult" champions when it's more like "hardest to learn" as costy says
with that context it makes a bit more sense to see someone like taliyah in there who's really easy to play but since she's basically tf with skillshots, it has a meaningful curve to get good at ganking and also pulling off combos from difficult angles
rengar is a good example of someone that might be missing from that list. i'd say probably evelynn too?
idk it's a weird list
with that context it makes a bit more sense to see someone like taliyah in there who's really easy to play but since she's basically tf with skillshots, it has a meaningful curve to get good at ganking and also pulling off combos from difficult angles
rengar is a good example of someone that might be missing from that list. i'd say probably evelynn too?
idk it's a weird list
i'd put new leblanc in there for sure, she's weird af
i played her today in an arams game and i felt like the quick r+e does shit for dmg now
can reworked anivia still do that?
i played her today in an arams game and i felt like the quick r+e does shit for dmg now
PhillipCostigan
Member
good for you, you should abuse that and make it to diamond no problem
75% of Gangplank players never make it past 50 games, new gangplank players perform very poorly and only when you approach the 50 games played do you hit a 50%~ win rate, and this is at platinum+
Gangplank has one of the highest mastery curves in the game. We're talking about a 12% additive win rate differential between new players and experienced players
now there are other factors that go into this, but when you combine it with the fact that Gangplank's play pattern revolves around barrels and no other champion does, it's very easy to see why Gangplank is one of the most difficult champions in the game
What's awesome about Gangplank is that you can visibly see the difference. Go watch Tobias Fate and compare it with yourself. If you could even hit a single decent three barrel combo in a game I'd be surprised. He does it with ease. He knows his ranges, he knows E tick timers, he knows how to hit his barrel with ranged enemies around etc.
I haven't played Anivia recently, so I might be wrong Zky. I was talking about old Anivia.
For me it would probably be like Azir, Rengar, Kalista, Vlad and GP.
GP isn't that easy, normal games aren't a very good judge of anything Levi.
Singed or Udyr though, I would definitely not put them high. It's not hard to splitpush and run away lol.
Rumble or Asol I wouldn't put them too high either. Rumble used to have a 60% winrate back in the day, and his kit was the same other than number values.
Honestly, I kinda feel like Bard should be up there too, but I'm a little conflicted.
For me it would probably be like Azir, Rengar, Kalista, Vlad and GP.
GP isn't that easy, normal games aren't a very good judge of anything Levi.
Singed or Udyr though, I would definitely not put them high. It's not hard to splitpush and run away lol.
Rumble or Asol I wouldn't put them too high either. Rumble used to have a 60% winrate back in the day, and his kit was the same other than number values.
Honestly, I kinda feel like Bard should be up there too, but I'm a little conflicted.
Peanut Butter
Member
Jesus, Costy.
I never said I was a GP god, and that my skills are good enough to get to high elo like diamond. I'm just a fan of the champion who found him oddly easy to play, so seeing him up on that list was a shock.
And I don't get why you mentioned Tobias Fate. All you pointed out was his mastery of the champion.....which can be said about any person on any champion.
like a Ryze player who can combo the hell out of his spells
a Lee Sin who can play like Rush
A Kha'Zix who can pick off kills and reset around teamfights seamlessly.
Come on, dude. Relax.
Wasn't talking about normals. I had a 48% W/R with him last season with about 30 games, but the only reason I just 30 games on him was because I had a garbage computer up until the season was about to end, and that's when I started to play more ranked.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Not to disagree, but this pretty closely mirrors general winrate by games played charts.good for you, you should abuse that and make it to diamond no problem
75% of Gangplank players never make it past 50 games, new gangplank players perform very poorly and only when you approach the 50 games played do you hit a 50%~ win rate, and this is at platinum+
Gangplank has one of the highest mastery curves in the game. We're talking about a 12% additive win rate differential between new players and experienced players
now there are other factors that go into this, but when you combine it with the fact that Gangplank's play pattern revolves around barrels and no other champion does, it's very easy to see why Gangplank is one of the most difficult champions in the game
What's awesome about Gangplank is that you can visibly see the difference. Go watch Tobias Fate and compare it with yourself. If you could even hit a single decent three barrel combo in a game I'd be surprised. He does it with ease. He knows his ranges, he knows E tick timers, he knows how to hit his barrel with ranged enemies around etc.
People who main champs (I mean really main them) any champ generally win around or above 54%. GP is no exception, but he's also not unusual in this regard.
PhillipCostigan
Member
Singed and Aurelion Sol are the definitions of non-transferable skillset, but still different.
Singed is mechanically simple, but he plays like no other champion in the game. Again, look at the data:
more than 50% of players don't make it past 15 games, and 75% don't make it past 50 games. 20% additive win rate differential between new and experienced players.
It takes a lot to learn how to be effective on Singed beyond just raw mechanics. It's a mindset. It's the difference between the shitty Singed you kill for free while he attempts to proxy vs. the diamond Singed one-trick that solo carries the game by frustrating the living shit out of you.
There's so much variation there.
SenorArdilla
Member
Any champ that requires a semblance of micro skills can be called difficult.
PhillipCostigan
Member
Not to disagree, but this pretty closely mirrors general winrate by games played charts.
People who main champs (I mean really main them) any champ generally win around or above 54%. GP is no exception, but he's also not unusual in this regard.
sure, and the stat on its own isn't hugely meaningful, but you also have to look at the amount of players who reach that number of games, when they quit etc.
compare player experience buckets with other champions - Vayne, Lee Sin, Lucian etc. and it will become a bit more obvious.
Not helping your case though.
Lucian.
I think Lucian in a balanced state is always gonna be a super difficult champion.
I do think GP is in the top 10, prob number 10 though. He just barely makes it. Also just because a champion has unique mechanics, doesn't mean they're difficult. Singed plays weird, but it's not hard to learn how to play that way.
PhillipCostigan
Member
Not helping your case though.
Lucian.
I think Lucian in a balanced state is always gonna be a super difficult champion.
it's like you didn't read the post you quoted.
Almost 50% of players play more than 50 games on him. There are almost as many Lucian players that reach over 125 games than players that quite at 5 and 15 games. Lucian's churn rate is really low and even when he's bad he's very, very popular meaning players pick him up easily, can stick with him and do so even when he's undertuned.
I used to play gp occasionally top and won with him. It's not hard to stand back and farm with Qs and barrels and throw ults around the map then barrel on team fights when nobody can really get to them quick enough. Actually throwing down super smooth long range combos like great gp players do though is super hard. I'd say his skill floor is probably lower than a lot of really tough champs but I do think his skill ceiling is pretty high
How is reaching games even a relevant stat for you Costy, lol. Losing doesn't stop people for playing a champ.
Games played does not have any real correlation on how difficult a champ is. Lucian is difficult in his balanced state, but he's still somewhat popular.
Look at the winrate rather than churn rate.
Games played does not have any real correlation on how difficult a champ is. Lucian is difficult in his balanced state, but he's still somewhat popular.
Look at the winrate rather than churn rate.
QuantumSquid
Member
Riot claiming TF is one of the most difficult heroes to play, lmao.
I mained him in S4 because he was so easy. Do you know how to prep a gold card before you ult to another lane? Congratulations, you're basically a TF master now.
I mained him in S4 because he was so easy. Do you know how to prep a gold card before you ult to another lane? Congratulations, you're basically a TF master now.
PhillipCostigan
Member
this is where I leave the thread because I realise this is a futile effort
the crux here i guess is that the list is difficulty of learning vs what would be difficulty of execution
in execution you'll probably see the threshes and the oriannas show up, while learning is just ok how do i not tp myself to death playing ryze
the list seems to be made entirely of champions that have abysmal win % on 1-5 games in costy's curve
that alone is kind of a bad criteria cos you have someone like udyr who has like 40% winrate at 1-5, then 51% at 5-15. a champion that takes 5-15 games to be 50%+ at is probably not very difficult. meanwhile gp is 15-50 so he seems more accurate. there's probably more data that says udyr belongs here, idk
a lot of the champions that you'd consider high difficulty show this pattern, like kalista, ori, leblanc, zed, thresh, lee sin, elise, nidalee, jhin
why they considered udyr fitting of that list and not lee sin or ori i have no idea
also yea kalista is the other one i was gonna say, she moves like no other champion in the game and requires a lot of finesse and instinctive understanding of rend dmg and stuff
in execution you'll probably see the threshes and the oriannas show up, while learning is just ok how do i not tp myself to death playing ryze
the list seems to be made entirely of champions that have abysmal win % on 1-5 games in costy's curve
that alone is kind of a bad criteria cos you have someone like udyr who has like 40% winrate at 1-5, then 51% at 5-15. a champion that takes 5-15 games to be 50%+ at is probably not very difficult. meanwhile gp is 15-50 so he seems more accurate. there's probably more data that says udyr belongs here, idk
a lot of the champions that you'd consider high difficulty show this pattern, like kalista, ori, leblanc, zed, thresh, lee sin, elise, nidalee, jhin
why they considered udyr fitting of that list and not lee sin or ori i have no idea
yeah i think they made undumbed that in the rework, thankfully
also yea kalista is the other one i was gonna say, she moves like no other champion in the game and requires a lot of finesse and instinctive understanding of rend dmg and stuff
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Costy I dunno if youre there
But I want you to know GP is my favorite remake so far. He was done right yo
the point of where people stop playing them is the one that i don't get
people stop playing asol not because he's difficult but because he's boring and weird (and a ton of outside reasons like people following the meta and the meta says lucian good singed bad)
same with most champions on that list, really
I know you're probably thinking oh, look he has such a high winrate of the players that kept playing him, but in a way the stats kinda lie on Lucian since he was really overpowered and now that he's under tuned nobody wins on him anymore.
To be fair the graph I linked is meaningless now too though, because it doesn't describe his current state. Champ retention, nonetheless is a useless metric.
Peanut Butter
Member
This is why I hate lists that rank stuff.
He's like Lucian in that regard.
yeah i don't get the champ retention stuff
like
lux is the highest played midlaner and she has 60% of the players doing less than 50 games on her
idk if that's a meaningful statistic
yeah, my bad
i should've put it better on my original post :<
i also don't think it's super useful to compare 1-5 to 125+ cos you're just comparing extremes and that's not really that representative. for example that 20% differential is also present on syndra 1-5 to 125+
and like asol has that 20% differential not between 1-5 and 125+, but between 1-5 and 5-15, so like people play idk 10 games of aurelion sol and figure him out, that's not so bad, he's just weird so it takes a bit getting used to him. syndra instead only has 4% difference between 1-5 and 5-15 and the big leap happens at 125+ (which can be interpreted as syndra has a high and rewarding skill ceiling)
also there's also the fact that no one plays aurelion sol so idk how reliable any of his data is, as well as weird shit like lux's winrate tanking super hard at 5-15, or that i bet there's very few people that play a single champion more than 125 times so that stat is probably totally useless, so idk, i generally dislike the stat oriented approach because from our side we never have the full picture like rito does, and it's really easy to make numbers say whatever you want to say
i appreciate the discussion tho, no need to be passive aggressive, defensive or whatever
and like asol has that 20% differential not between 1-5 and 125+, but between 1-5 and 5-15, so like people play idk 10 games of aurelion sol and figure him out, that's not so bad, he's just weird so it takes a bit getting used to him. syndra instead only has 4% difference between 1-5 and 5-15 and the big leap happens at 125+ (which can be interpreted as syndra has a high and rewarding skill ceiling)
also there's also the fact that no one plays aurelion sol so idk how reliable any of his data is, as well as weird shit like lux's winrate tanking super hard at 5-15, or that i bet there's very few people that play a single champion more than 125 times so that stat is probably totally useless, so idk, i generally dislike the stat oriented approach because from our side we never have the full picture like rito does, and it's really easy to make numbers say whatever you want to say
i appreciate the discussion tho, no need to be passive aggressive, defensive or whatever