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[Stone Ocean]

Because Riot insists on keeping her uncapped rend vs monsters so if Kalista is ever good she's basically instantly a contested competitive pick.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

I'll say.

"We're reworking ADCs".

Is no longer an ADC.

"we're reworking marksmen"

Is still a marksman

 

[Brewster123]

So I've been messing around with Singed and I am really enjoying him, but I cannot decide whether to focus on him or Rumble. I'm looking for a tanky AP top laner to compliment my other top lane mains. On one hand, I really like Rumble's ultimate and what it can do for teamfights, but I also really like Singed's zoning ability with his poison (Plus it's fun going at sonic speed). Any advice gaf?

EDIT: Yeah after playing awhile longer, rumble just seems a lot more useful... Singed is a hilarious troll though.

 

[EzekelRAGE]

Im still just a koggy

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Im still just a koggy

Im sorry thats "marksman"

Effective immediately your just a marksmen

 

[dimb]

Because Riot insists on keeping her uncapped rend vs monsters so if Kalista is ever good she's basically instantly a contested competitive pick.

I think it is other factors. Her early game is very strong and the ult is game changing.

"we're reworking marksmen"

Is still a marksman

I think the frustration for many players lies in a certain type of marksman essentially being removed from the game. Initially you saw the reasoning for bigger Graves changes being that the overlap between him, Corki, and Lucian was too high. Now the bot lane has a gaping void of burst style or close range heroes that might have provided more pressure early. I think Corki would be a good example of finding a better place midlane, but he definitely skews more towards being a mage than a straight marksman with how he has been adjusted.

With Graves specifically it is clear that he was not initially designed to be a jungler, and I think when he is pushed into that role he loses out on much of the identity that he used to have. His low range is a non-factor when he is not in a lane, and even the defensive applications of something like Smokescreen translate poorly when pushed on a jungler who is often just going to pop it out for damage in a 2v1. The rework pumped up his burst damage so autoing was less important, and the defining Buckshot from the past has really just become this awkward encumbrance that does little to capture the old skillshot. The lack of passthrough on basic autos is what maybe hurts the most here.

Graves is a legacy character that had a positive contribution to the game for multiple seasons. There are certainly interesting ideas in the new kit, but it does little to capture what the hero was before and for me personally it felt somewhat disrespectful to the history of the champion. I think there's also something to be said for culling the number of Marksmen that are viable out of bottom lane when that role likely sees the smallest overall champ pool. The jungle pool is crowded to begin with, so once Graves is pushed there he also starts stepping on some toes of champions that can't go anywhere else.

 

[Kotetsu534]

I think the frustration for many players lies in a certain type of marksman essentially being removed from the game. Initially you saw the reasoning for bigger Graves changes being that the overlap between him, Corki, and Lucian was too high. Now the bot lane has a gaping void of burst style or close range heroes that might have provided more pressure early.

Dead on. It's even more noticeable now that Caitlyn (for so long the #1 lane bully) has been nerfed out of the meta. Caster carries (Ez, Graves, Corki, Lucian) were always my favourite to play and required a subtlely different skillset to the DPS monsters. They also supported more aggressive team comps since you could bring both serious burst damage and lane pressure out of the bot lane.

 

[zkylon]

i like this xayah

Because Riot insists on keeping her uncapped rend vs monsters so if Kalista is ever good she's basically instantly a contested competitive pick.

i wonder why they're so obsessed with that

it is something unique about her that makes her unique in the same way chogath is for top lane, but idk if kalista needs that many unique shit

also i would add the ult being really good for competitive

 

[Stone Ocean]

I think it is other factors. Her early game is very strong and the ult is game changing.

Her early game being good is what enables her to be viable, her objective control / tank killing power + mobility is what makes her pick or ban in competitive afterwards. Kalista will always be an issue until Riot deals with that. Her ult is powerful but it gives her an strategic niche, Rend just makes her bullshit and excessive.

 

[zkylon]

rito did such a good job with eve's vgu

also played a bit of ryze and azir to check how they feel, azir feels pretty strong but i'm definitely not an azir player and won't ever be. ryze is still really fun, i might pick him from time to time

 

[Brewster123]

Jesus that Eve art is too much... They really hit it out of the park.

 

[Peanut Butter]

I think the frustration for many players lies in a certain type of marksman essentially being removed from the game. Initially you saw the reasoning for bigger Graves changes being that the overlap between him, Corki, and Lucian was too high. Now the bot lane has a gaping void of burst style or close range heroes that might have provided more pressure early. I think Corki would be a good example of finding a better place midlane, but he definitely skews more towards being a mage than a straight marksman with how he has been adjusted.

Fair points

With Graves specifically it is clear that he was not initially designed to be a jungler, and I think when he is pushed into that role he loses out on much of the identity that he used to have. His low range is a non-factor when he is not in a lane, and even the defensive applications of something like Smokescreen translate poorly when pushed on a jungler who is often just going to pop it out for damage in a 2v1. The rework pumped up his burst damage so autoing was less important, and the defining Buckshot from the past has really just become this awkward encumbrance that does little to capture the old skillshot. The lack of passthrough on basic autos is what maybe hurts the most here.

There are certainly interesting ideas in the new kit, but it does little to capture what the hero was before and for me personally it felt somewhat disrespectful to the history of the champion.

This is the part where I disagree because, to me, Graves in his current state is 500x more enjoyable/satisfying to play as a champion than before he was reworked. The old Graves was fine, but as far as identity goes, his current state fits his theme a lot more. Graves finding success as a jungler after his rework, even if it wasn't intended, isn't that big of a deal because having marksmen take on roles in the jungle (Graves, Kindred, now Ezreal) has been one of the best things to happen to that role in a long time.

 

[drawkcaB]

I think the frustration for many players lies in a certain type of marksman essentially being removed from the game. Initially you saw the reasoning for bigger Graves changes being that the overlap between him, Corki, and Lucian was too high. Now the bot lane has a gaping void of burst style or close range heroes that might have provided more pressure early. I think Corki would be a good example of finding a better place midlane, but he definitely skews more towards being a mage than a straight marksman with how he has been adjusted.

With Graves specifically it is clear that he was not initially designed to be a jungler, and I think when he is pushed into that role he loses out on much of the identity that he used to have. His low range is a non-factor when he is not in a lane, and even the defensive applications of something like Smokescreen translate poorly when pushed on a jungler who is often just going to pop it out for damage in a 2v1. The rework pumped up his burst damage so autoing was less important, and the defining Buckshot from the past has really just become this awkward encumbrance that does little to capture the old skillshot. The lack of passthrough on basic autos is what maybe hurts the most here.

Graves is a legacy character that had a positive contribution to the game for multiple seasons. There are certainly interesting ideas in the new kit, but it does little to capture what the hero was before and for me personally it felt somewhat disrespectful to the history of the champion. I think there's also something to be said for culling the number of Marksmen that are viable out of bottom lane when that role likely sees the smallest overall champ pool. The jungle pool is crowded to begin with, so once Graves is pushed there he also starts stepping on some toes of champions that can't go anywhere else.

Bingo.

I appreciate the pair of comments directed at me that can't bother to think of why I'd say my comment though. Hope you guys feel superior, my pleasure. Any time.

 

[Stone Ocean]

The problem with Graves is that he needed a rework one way or the other. Burst + mobility + decent scaling ADC kits always warp bot lane when they are good enough and old Graves was no exception so I'm glad thats gone.

With that said, new Graves was decent enough, but Riot's insistence on keeping him viable as a jungler just made sure that he never sees lane play again, which doesn't make sense since Graves players never asked him to be a jungler. Same for Quinn to some extent, people wanted her to be good bot for ages, lets try and make her a solo laner since top laners would rather uninstall than play vs Quinn - and somehow end up making her a jungler then back to whatever the fuck Quinn is supposed to be now.

The marksman update was such a fucking mess. RFC and Runaan reworks are the only good things to come out of it, honestly.

 

[Newt]

Finally, I get the recognition I deserve.

 

[SenorArdilla]

There are people who aren't Honor 5?

 

[Newt]

There are people who aren't Honor 5?

You try playing ADC in diamond and not getting reported.

 

[zkylon]

The problem with Graves is that he needed a rework one way or the other. Burst + mobility + decent scaling ADC kits always warp bot lane when they are good enough and old Graves was no exception so I'm glad thats gone.

With that said, new Graves was decent enough, but Riot's insistence on keeping him viable as a jungler just made sure that he never sees lane play again, which doesn't make sense since Graves players never asked him to be a jungler. Same for Quinn to some extent, people wanted her to be good bot for ages, lets try and make her a solo laner since top laners would rather uninstall than play vs Quinn - and somehow end up making her a jungler then back to whatever the fuck Quinn is supposed to be now.

The marksman update was such a fucking mess. RFC and Runaan reworks are the only good things to come out of it, honestly.

i like how corki turned up but yeah, i'm still pretty salty for how they killed trinity force kog

 

[dimb]

This is the part where I disagree because, to me, Graves in his current state is 500x more enjoyable/satisfying to play as a champion than before he was reworked. The old Graves was fine, but as far as identity goes, his current state fits his theme a lot more. Graves finding success as a jungler after his rework, even if it wasn't intended, isn't that big of a deal because having marksmen take on roles in the jungle (Graves, Kindred, now Ezreal) has been one of the best things to happen to that role in a long time.

I think there is a huge gulf between a champion that finds a place in an unexpected role, and one that becomes a complete outcast in the role it was designed for. Stuff like Rumble jungle, Shen support, or even Veigar support have a very different read compared to Graves not being viable in a duo lane. Whatever identity he has taken up clearly has no relation to the short ranged bot laner who squared off with other gunmen by finding openings to close the gap. More than that, Graves stood as sort of a centralized figure for bot lane with a kit that was easy to understand and pick up for people new to the role. It's nice to emphasize the unique niche of marksmen, but when I look at the roster for bot laners now I honestly don't see any of them as being easily approachable by new players, or players unfamiliar with that specific role.

There is a certain responsibility involved with reworks to capture what the champion used to be and it is impossible for me to understand how Graves could be considered a success in that regard. His kit brought some interesting ideas to the jungle but most of it was based around exploiting clear speeds in a less forgiving jungle by being able to avoid damage and fast clear what others could not. In the end these broken interactions wound up seeing him nerfed into near obscurity even inside the niche role forced upon him.

The problem with Graves is that he needed a rework one way or the other. Burst + mobility + decent scaling ADC kits always warp bot lane when they are good enough and old Graves was no exception so I'm glad thats gone.

With that said, new Graves was decent enough, but Riot's insistence on keeping him viable as a jungler just made sure that he never sees lane play again, which doesn't make sense since Graves players never asked him to be a jungler. Same for Quinn to some extent, people wanted her to be good bot for ages, lets try and make her a solo laner since top laners would rather uninstall than play vs Quinn - and somehow end up making her a jungler then back to whatever the fuck Quinn is supposed to be now.

The marksman update was such a fucking mess. RFC and Runaan reworks are the only good things to come out of it, honestly.

Old Graves was not some kind of super scaling god into late game. The limits placed on him by his low range inherently left him at high risk in late game team fights, and even his mobility was limited to a short dash. His potential to all in targets was limited by True Grit, which needed to ramp up over time with each auto. If Graves went in too early he was vulnerable to burst or a CC chain. It feels impossible to even engage with a system like this on the new Graves because you cannot auto anyone before putting yourself in danger. As a result True Grit is really difficult to balance.

 

[Sigismundo]

If a theoretical champion is a) enjoyable to play, b) well-balanced and c) has an "outdated kit" would you want Riot to leave them alone or update them anyway?

 

[Newt]

If a theoretical champion is a) enjoyable to play, b) well-balanced and c) has an "outdated kit" would you want Riot to leave them alone or update them anyway?

No, if they did you wouldn't see me complaining about Anivia every day.

 

[SenorArdilla]

How many pizza feet are left?

 

[Newt]

How many pizza feet are left?

Only Morde. I kinda like Morde's kit though, hope they keep it similar.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Mordes kit is fun but the thing is he needs better numbers across the board, cause it's hard living as a mage character with no CC and who's strictly melee with limited ranged.

 

[Newt]

Morde isn't a mage though.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Morde isn't a mage though.

"Juggernaut" then. I still consider him a mage because he can go AP and wreck damage wise. But even then, his problem is that he has just no CC at all, compared to others in his same class like Darius or even Renekton.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Only Morde. I kinda like Morde's kit though, hope they keep it similar.

And Panth, sorta

 

[zkylon]

there's a ton of champions that should get new models despite not having pizza feet

cho looks like the 3d software just bugged and that's what came out, ahri has those weird squiggly arms, mf boob shaking animations are just grotesque lol, kassadin looks like he's built out of 200 polys, etc.

would also be nice to see new designs for some champs that are "fairly ok" like caitlyn or malzahar or malphite, etc. they don't need huge taric style redesigns, just changes that makes them look less goofy. sort of like a karthus thing

 

[Peanut Butter]

There is a certain responsibility involved with reworks to capture what the champion used to be and it is impossible for me to understand how Graves could be considered a success in that regard.

- He's still a short ranged champion that has really good burst damage
- His Smokesreen, Quickdraw, and Collateral Damage are familiar

and then there's success related to fun factor. New Graves has one of the most satisfying gameplay loops out of all the champions in the game because of how his burst works, especially if people group up and you can tick End of the Line off of a piece of terrain.

 

[Stone Ocean]

there's a ton of champions that should get new models despite not having pizza feet

cho looks like the 3d software just bugged and that's what came out, ahri has those weird squiggly arms, mf boob shaking animations are just grotesque lol, kassadin looks like he's built out of 200 polys, etc.

would also be nice to see new designs for some champs that are "fairly ok" like caitlyn or malzahar or malphite, etc. they don't need huge taric style redesigns, just changes that makes them look less goofy. sort of like a karthus thing

MF and Kass already got new models lol

 

[EzekelRAGE]

Do i have to enable the honor icon? I got the most recent one posted in the thread but not showing up in loading screen.

 

[Leezard]

Do i have to enable the honor icon? I got the most recent one posted in the thread but not showing up in loading screen.

It activates for a single game if you receive one honor from a non-premade or two from premades the game before.

 

[EzekelRAGE]

It activates for a single game if you receive one honor from a non-premade or two from premades the game before.

T_T

 

[dawgparty]

I just wanna play Lissandra all the time. 3v3 it is I guess.

 

[zkylon]

MF and Kass already got new models lol

did they? i thought they only got new textures

i guess it's an animation thing then, mf in particular looks awful

 

[Stone Ocean]

did they? i thought they only got new textures

i guess it's an animation thing then, mf in particular looks awful

Nah, they got new models, new animations and particles.

I think only their emotes weren't changed.

 

[Leezard]

Old Kassadin sure looked bad.

 

[Bacon]

Old Kassadin sure looked bad.

Seriously. What a mess lol

 

[Stone Ocean]

Old Kass didn't have pizza feet but he made up for it by being a whole fucking pizza.

 

[zkylon]

kass ye i goofed but mf animations still look like crap to me, i don't think they redid those (and mf's model looks the same to me tbh? like obviously much better textures but the mesh itself seems to be the same)

 

[Stone Ocean]

kass ye i goofed but mf animations still look like crap to me, i don't think they redid those (and mf's model looks the same to me tbh? like obviously much better textures but the mesh itself seems to be the same)

What? Look at her boots, her hat, the proportions on her body, her hair, her guns, the frills on her arms, she has actual arms now instead of noodles, etc, its all new.

MF got new autos, a new running animation for when Strut is down a new Q animation and a new ult animation. You probably think its the same because they kept her idles for some reason and yeah those are awful.

 

[Tizoc]

Ya know there's some charm to that Warcarft 3 look. Part of the reason I got WC3 on PC XP

 

[RedZaraki]

Morde isn't a mage though.

Morde has:

NO Mobility
NO Range
NO CC
Equal Burst as some other mages
Isn't particularly tanky


.....


COME ON.


I hope they make his W nuts. Like, you can cast it on an ally and an enemy and then magnetize the two of them together.

I really hope if they ever update his kit they play more on the magnetic aspects of being the "Master of Metal"

 

[zkylon]

What? Look at her boots, her hat, the proportions on her body, her hair, her guns, the frills on her arms, she has actual arms now instead of noodles, etc, its all new.

MF got new autos, a new running animation for when Strut is down a new Q animation and a new ult animation. You probably think its the same because they kept her idles for some reason and yeah those are awful.

ye i think you're right, the idles were throwing me off

well at least we can agree cho looks like poop haha

 

[faridmon]

This season I have climbed from Bronze 5 to Silver 5. I am happy!

Although I am struggling to chain few wins, but hopefully I'll climb to Silver 1 next season

 

[zkylon]

This season I have climbed from Bronze 5 to Silver 5. I am happy!

Although I am struggling to chain few wins, but hopefully I'll climb to Silver 1 next season

nice, that's quite the improvement

gotta make it to gold next year

 

[faridmon]

nice, that's quite the improvement

gotta make it to gold next year

Cheers! Well, I have 1 year to improve. Lets see how it goes!

I am happy that I have learnt how to play Braum, another Supp champion in the pool now.

So far: Braum, Thresh, Morgana, Lulu, Naut and Rakan. Sona and Bard, but still struggling to play them well.

I should probably narrow it down to 3 champions

 

[pigeon]

Morde has:

NO Mobility
NO Range
NO CC
Equal Burst as some other mages
Isn't particularly tanky


.....


COME ON.


I hope they make his W nuts. Like, you can cast it on an ally and an enemy and then magnetize the two of them together.

I really hope if they ever update his kit they play more on the magnetic aspects of being the "Master of Metal"

Mordekaiser being the Master of Metal is represented in game by all his abilities having the names of heavy metal songs.

It’s not necessarily the design avenue I would pursue but they went all in on it.

 

[SenorArdilla]

Karthus is more metal than Morde.

 

[zkylon]

Cheers! Well, I have 1 year to improve. Lets see how it goes!

I am happy that I have learnt how to play Braum, another Supp champion in the pool now.

So far: Braum, Thresh, Morgana, Lulu, Naut and Rakan. Sona and Bard, but still struggling to play them well.

I should probably narrow it down to 3 champions

yeah focus on a few

like this year basically all i played was orianna and anivia