BurnOutBrighter
Banned
What's the Targon's nerf? Reducing the charges?
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League of Legends |OT5| Premade Bot
- Thread starter Dobkeratops
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What's the Targon's nerf? Reducing the charges?
Imperfected
Member
Yeah. I get that the idea was that they didn't want an item that gives all last-hit gold to your laning partner, so they wanted to make it a timed event, but right now it's a little too easy to use with drive-by jungler gimmes and everything.
Edit: At the moment it's just reducing max charges, yeah, but considering the turnaround from releasing it to putting a nerf on the PBE, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess there's another one coming behind it.
just showing up for a bit since s4 is kind of a big deal
right now my knee-jerk reaction is to dread these changes, when playing sona I feel like I have more gold than I know what to do with (I got an athene's+locket, imma try frozen fist or lich bane too, maybe), while feeling kinda purposeless tbh...
played a game against teemo and it wasn't pretty either heh
I guess they'll round out all these things and this is me just talking after 5 or 6 games but so far it's pretty fucking weird, I felt like supports lost a bit of identity and trinkets felt just cumbersome to deal with
right now my knee-jerk reaction is to dread these changes, when playing sona I feel like I have more gold than I know what to do with (I got an athene's+locket, imma try frozen fist or lich bane too, maybe), while feeling kinda purposeless tbh...
played a game against teemo and it wasn't pretty either heh
I guess they'll round out all these things and this is me just talking after 5 or 6 games but so far it's pretty fucking weird, I felt like supports lost a bit of identity and trinkets felt just cumbersome to deal with
well on the base item PBE is at 3 max charges right now
dont think thats enough
1. can double it up, making mucho gold
2. only tuns off if solo, rather than farming
3. pushes super hard
1+2. make the passive charge stop counting for 15s after you kill a minion (make it charge slightly quicker to compensate)
3. i think the auto execute should go, or at least lower it to 100 hp
should always get a gold item
targons brace is super gud rite now, but talisman active is still real good on sona. otherwise, build lots of ap for fun lichbane times!
why are trinkets cumbersome? as a support, its basically like taking explorer ward mastery.
Wolf Akela
Member
I think people are really overreacting to Targon right now. It's only been one day. TheOddOne's herding skill is too stronk. It doesn't even always go well. That one game where TheOddOne's duo targon lane dominated because they set the enemy jungler far behind with a blue first blood. The rest of his duo targon games weren't that dominant.
Just leave it be while people figure out how to make good use of other new items. I'd love to see more than just 2-1-1-jungler we've had since I dunno end of season 1?
Just leave it be while people figure out how to make good use of other new items. I'd love to see more than just 2-1-1-jungler we've had since I dunno end of season 1?
yeah I got those items + kage thingie + sighstone
targon thingie looks pretty beast too and a lot of fun to use, I ran it on thresh and I got a few clutch ignite saves with the shield active, plus it makes a cool last hitting animation and it feels pretty cool.
kage thingie is kinda shit tbh, I made some money with it on sona but no cdr is pretty lame and I can't see myself running it over targon on pretty much anyone. will have to be pretty cautious with mana early on tho.
coin is the most boring of the bunch, and it gives no fighting stats so I wonder why would anyone take it in the first place (plus if your adc can't cs for shit you're doomed
) and it's kind of a pity to see the shurelya active wasted on this item. 20% cdr (+ the other things) for 2k gold is pretty nice tho, but I think I'd rather get 10%+hp from targonalso my super random sona build for aram is muramana+lich bane+nashor's+void staff+liandry's or something like that. don't ask me why but I love running that on sona and have gotten pentas with it and everything, it's hilarious... might have to try it on normals, tho the lower ratios may make her kinda sad
well I've been doing the voyboy thing of setting your 6th item to the t key and so I have the trinkets set to the 6 key and it's pretty far away even for my long fingers. tried doing some weird combinations but I dunno what I'm gonna do, moving it to t and then using 3/4 for actives messes up with my head
I also just keep forgetting about them, which I guess it's not the trinket's fault, but I have my suggested items set without them and I either forget about buying them or just mindlessly buy a bunch of wards. it's a matter of getting used to them but everything all together is getting confusing heh
I think it's the clear strongest of the support item and it's pretty dumb to see pros building like 5 on the team, but that's kind of the point of pre-season I guess. just nerf stuff so it's all in order
tho you gotta wonder how this didn't came up before.
also it would've probably be better for riot's image if nacl hadn't happened just right after the s4 changes got through. feels like a lot of people may be jumping to conclusions based on dumb stuff (zhonya's on vayne surely have no relation to targon :|) people are pulling in a silly tournament that's more about the music than anything else
As nice as targon is I've not been using it every game since once i saw what it did on 'double ups' I was pretty sure a nerf was otw, maybe even a bigger one than i am thinking. Figured I might as well not get too used to it.
Wolf Akela
Member
Never had issues with hotkeys to be honest. I can only remember one game in a few months where I had more than 4 actives and it was when I was a very fed support in late game. Something like Sightstone-Shurelya-Pink-Green-Shard.
Trinket on T might be easier for you to rmemberyeah I got those items + kage thingie + sighstone
targon thingie looks pretty beast too and a lot of fun to use, I ran it on thresh and I got a few clutch ignite saves with the shield active, plus it makes a cool last hitting animation and it feels pretty cool.
kage thingie is kinda shit tbh, I made some money with it on sona but no cdr is pretty lame and I can't see myself running it over targon on pretty much anyone. will have to be pretty cautious with mana early on tho.
coin is the most boring of the bunch, and it gives no fighting stats so I wonder why would anyone take it in the first place (plus if your adc can't cs for shit you're doomed
also my super random sona build for aram is muramana+lich bane+nashor's+void staff+liandry's or something like that. don't ask me why but I love running that on sona and have gotten pentas with it and everything, it's hilarious... might have to try it on normals, tho the lower ratios may make her kinda sad
well I've been doing the voyboy thing of setting your 6th item to the t key and so I have the trinkets set to the 6 key and it's pretty far away even for my long fingers. tried doing some weird combinations but I dunno what I'm gonna do, moving it to t and then using 3/4 for actives messes up with my head
I also just keep forgetting about them, which I guess it's not the trinket's fault, but I have my suggested items set without them and I either forget about buying them or just mindlessly buy a bunch of wards. it's a matter of getting used to them but everything all together is getting confusing heh
I think it's the clear strongest of the support item and it's pretty dumb to see pros building like 5 on the team, but that's kind of the point of pre-season I guess. just nerf stuff so it's all in order
tho you gotta wonder how this didn't came up before.
also it would've probably be better for riot's image if nacl hadn't happened just right after the s4 changes got through. feels like a lot of people may be jumping to conclusions based on dumb stuff (zhonya's on vayne surely have no relation to targon :|) people are pulling in a silly tournament that's more about the music than anything else
items from 1-6 as before, T for trinket. ez pz
and yeah, the frostfang one seems the worst of the bunch - especially how fast the game will be going now, you will get much less benefit from that item
you get the coin because youre janna and you cant do anything in lane anyway + shurelyas is gud.
nami benefitted pretty well from the patch i believe -
the current supports to play are: soraka, nami, taric, leona, thresh, annie, fiddle (even lulu but dimb mite kill me if i say this)
correction: at most pros would build 4 braces of targon!
yea it's more related to how I'm too set in my head that t is zhonya's, 3 is dfg and 4 is wards or t is shurelya's, 3 is pinks, 4 is greens for supports.
maybe I'll just move trinkets to 4 and see how it goes. if only gaming mice was cheaper in argentina
Finally figured out how to avoid running into gold players and the like when playing normals as an unranked player - form a 4 or 5-person premade (of unranked players). Being a solo player matched among premades was pretty frustrating because often you'd end up with one side stacked with far more strong ranked players than the other just because one of them queued with a "newer" player, and more often than not, whichever side was stacked would win because the strongest players would simply carry, regardless of whether these players were on my side or the other. Even if the "newer" player fed a bit, the other side wouldn't be able to take advantage of it as much as the strong players would be able to, and the games were pretty much decided before they started. Usually the players I get matched with are around my level (28) and have approximately a similar number of wins (~150) and presumably losses (also ~150), but when I run into those mismatched premades, it's not unusual to see someone with like 50 wins paired with someone in gold or plat with >1000 wins among us, and I really don't think that the newer player makes up for the other.
S4's decent. I really like the new vision wards with indefinite duration, though I really think each player should be allowed 2 at a time, not 1. It would make all the difference. It also seems to me that it'd be best to place them in bushes most of the time so they're not immediately spotted.
The teleport change isn't out yet but I think it really makes it worth running - being able to back, buy, and return immediately every 3 minutes during laning phase seems pretty valuable, and that's not even considering its usefulness for picks or teamfights.
I wonder if they'll go through with the 2 lane brush -> 3 change. I wouldn't like that, controlling them wouldn't be as important, and they wouldn't be as useful to use to dodge skillshots when say, getting ganked.
Just from the numbers, I think that assist streaks will contribute to additional snowballing off kills.
21 offense seems to do more damage than it did before. Like for AP champs:
S3, we got 7 ap at level 1, 24 at level 18, 2% damage, 8% magic pen, 5% more ap, 4% cdr, and 5% more damage against those <= 50% health.
S4, we get 9 ap at level 1, 24 at level 18, 3% damage, 6% magic pen, 5% more ap, 5% cdr, 5% more damage against those <= 50% health - and the new deal/take 1.5% more damage mastery, which makes a nontrivial difference.
Support Annie seems so much squishier than before; I died a lot more than I usually do playing her. Or maybe I'm just running into better players. It's starting to make me think that tanky supports do have a lot of upside.
OMG...I thought that the minion execute on the item was odd, but never connected the dots together as to why.
e: Oh wow, the wind wall can block certain spells? Damn, this new champ is going to to be a pretty strong counter to specific champions. I don't like this dynamic at all.
S4's decent. I really like the new vision wards with indefinite duration, though I really think each player should be allowed 2 at a time, not 1. It would make all the difference. It also seems to me that it'd be best to place them in bushes most of the time so they're not immediately spotted.
The teleport change isn't out yet but I think it really makes it worth running - being able to back, buy, and return immediately every 3 minutes during laning phase seems pretty valuable, and that's not even considering its usefulness for picks or teamfights.
I wonder if they'll go through with the 2 lane brush -> 3 change. I wouldn't like that, controlling them wouldn't be as important, and they wouldn't be as useful to use to dodge skillshots when say, getting ganked.
Just from the numbers, I think that assist streaks will contribute to additional snowballing off kills.
21 offense seems to do more damage than it did before. Like for AP champs:
S3, we got 7 ap at level 1, 24 at level 18, 2% damage, 8% magic pen, 5% more ap, 4% cdr, and 5% more damage against those <= 50% health.
S4, we get 9 ap at level 1, 24 at level 18, 3% damage, 6% magic pen, 5% more ap, 5% cdr, 5% more damage against those <= 50% health - and the new deal/take 1.5% more damage mastery, which makes a nontrivial difference.
Support Annie seems so much squishier than before; I died a lot more than I usually do playing her. Or maybe I'm just running into better players. It's starting to make me think that tanky supports do have a lot of upside.
OMG...I thought that the minion execute on the item was odd, but never connected the dots together as to why.
e: Oh wow, the wind wall can block certain spells? Damn, this new champ is going to to be a pretty strong counter to specific champions. I don't like this dynamic at all.
things I do like about s4 so far:
* new corki q is super dumb. I luv it
* blue buff nerf (lol) is kinda sad but interesting and I look forward to how it changes the game
* brush physics
* support item actives, specially targon shield
4 is for warding since it's the most comfortable for my fingers for placing them scarra wards
coin is, I dunno, I don't really play janna anymore because she got boring for me at some point, but the item is so freakishly passive I can't see it working for me. I'm "aggressive" to a fault (aka will 50-50 win/fuck up the lane for my adc lol), hate laning with a tristana/vayne and just want to have fun <3
* new corki q is super dumb. I luv it
* blue buff nerf (lol) is kinda sad but interesting and I look forward to how it changes the game
* brush physics
* support item actives, specially targon shield
lol didn't know this and been tping to turrets all day like an idiot
I'm old brah, too set on my ways, t is my GTFO button. so zhonya's/seraph/shurelya's/locket.
4 is for warding since it's the most comfortable for my fingers for placing them scarra wards
yeah after laning phase kage's kinda worthless. the active's fun but I think I'd rather have shurelya's
coin is, I dunno, I don't really play janna anymore because she got boring for me at some point, but the item is so freakishly passive I can't see it working for me. I'm "aggressive" to a fault (aka will 50-50 win/fuck up the lane for my adc lol), hate laning with a tristana/vayne and just want to have fun <3
yeah nami's pretty alright, tho I've tried her with ap pre-patch once and I don't think she does so well with it. I think imma get 40% cdr, then go tanky. with sona too, ap seems like such a waste on the real supports unless you're like janna and are assisting from like six kms away
I think ves had 5 vs. curse but yeah
Imperfected
Member
Wait, shouldn't the wind wall block Zac when he's using Elastic Slingshot? I mean, not for game balance reasons, but thematically. He doesn't arc very high.
You used T for what before this?
And nami got a bunch of utility scaling with a tiny change to Ap ratios
No because thematically zac is way too big and heavy to be blocked by a wall of magical wind
I'm sure that the cd would be high enough. Besides, it'd only be a defensive counter - since he can't actually do anything to them in return
Imperfected
Member
Yeah, but he's a squishy jerk.
I suppose it's a pretty interesting mechanic. I wonder what the cut-off for it in terms of projectiles is. Does a Seismic Shard count - it is as much a projectile as Overload or Dazzle for all intents and purposes - or does it get a special exemption for being underground? Does Cait's Q count, but not Lucian's? If you put a wind wall up in front of Janna and she ults, how hard does she blow?
Imperfected
Member
Nami's wave is far too splishy to be blocked by wind. I suppose her bubble would be, though, even though it technically arcs?
I'm actually curious about the AoE interactions, because generally an AoE is not considered a 'projectile' in game-terms even when it has the properties of one thematically. I'd assume, for example, that Talon's Rake doesn't get treated as a projectile despite the fact it's thematically a thrown object, but maybe the blades on his ultimate do? Who knows! It's pandemonium!
I'm actually curious about the AoE interactions, because generally an AoE is not considered a 'projectile' in game-terms even when it has the properties of one thematically. I'd assume, for example, that Talon's Rake doesn't get treated as a projectile despite the fact it's thematically a thrown object, but maybe the blades on his ultimate do? Who knows! It's pandemonium!
Wolf Akela
Member
99.9% sure it will not cut it off Janna ult because it isn't a projectile. Riot doesnt really care about thematic interactions of spells in general.
The issue is that what constitutes as a projectile, and what are stuff coded as minions moving around. For example: Maokai E. It could be a projectile or a minion. It could also be just a projectile until it lands to become a minion.
Lux ult may like a projectile, but it was coded as an invisible line of minions. It's why there was a brief glitch where Tryn gains gold by spinning through it. MF ult looks similar, but I don't kniw if it's coded as actual projectile or as another group of invisible minions again.
There's also an issue with ults being projectiles, especiall since it looks like an AoE spellshield for projectiles.
It's gonna be a problem differentiating things.
The issue is that what constitutes as a projectile, and what are stuff coded as minions moving around. For example: Maokai E. It could be a projectile or a minion. It could also be just a projectile until it lands to become a minion.
Lux ult may like a projectile, but it was coded as an invisible line of minions. It's why there was a brief glitch where Tryn gains gold by spinning through it. MF ult looks similar, but I don't kniw if it's coded as actual projectile or as another group of invisible minions again.
There's also an issue with ults being projectiles, especiall since it looks like an AoE spellshield for projectiles.
It's gonna be a problem differentiating things.
I have an odd feeling "projectiles" might mean ranged auto attacks only. It be too stupid otherwise to have it do stuff like cancel Brand's Ult.
Any rate, some thoughts on what I played today:
Bladed armor is bugged and doesn't proc on the small monsters, at least at low health. Didn't check later on (got that bug trying both Skarner and Maokai). New jungle is insanely punishing for heavy mana users, and too punishing in general at early levels. I need to use additional mana to kill the 4th camp now when farming in order to get about the same gold/XP as before. Even if a gank opportunity opened itself once I got to level 4, not sure I'd dare actually try it. The health/mana drops from large monsters needs to be increased. Really dislike the how it takes 1 buff+3 small camps or 2 buffs+1 camp to get to level 3. I don't feel this early jungle XP nerf is necessary in conjunction with trinkets. Even though you can see the information when you click on the monster, I'd like to see monster camp levels displayed next to their health bars. I feel this is information that should be presented immediately to the player. So yeah, not a fan of the new jungle right now.
Any rate, some thoughts on what I played today:
Bladed armor is bugged and doesn't proc on the small monsters, at least at low health. Didn't check later on (got that bug trying both Skarner and Maokai). New jungle is insanely punishing for heavy mana users, and too punishing in general at early levels. I need to use additional mana to kill the 4th camp now when farming in order to get about the same gold/XP as before. Even if a gank opportunity opened itself once I got to level 4, not sure I'd dare actually try it. The health/mana drops from large monsters needs to be increased. Really dislike the how it takes 1 buff+3 small camps or 2 buffs+1 camp to get to level 3. I don't feel this early jungle XP nerf is necessary in conjunction with trinkets. Even though you can see the information when you click on the monster, I'd like to see monster camp levels displayed next to their health bars. I feel this is information that should be presented immediately to the player. So yeah, not a fan of the new jungle right now.
BriseFlots
Member
OGN champions winter starting soon (today's games that is).
I've come to enjoy those games.
I've come to enjoy those games.
Imperfected
Member
But they're playing on tournament realm with the last stable (Season 3) patch. It's going to be like watching people play olde timey football with the leather "helmets" and lack of steroids.
They've already clarified it. Projectiles are any attack that has travel time in the air
Maybe bladed armour is rounded down?
Imperfected
Member
The problem is that "clarification" raises the question of whether or not they're letting semantic differences (rather than game balance reasons) determine the definition of "in the air".
Example: the behavior of Seismic Shard and Dazzle in terms of how they target and "chase" champions is essentially identical, but is Seismic Shard not affected by wind wall because it's not technically "in the air"? What about Draven's Whirling Death vs. Ezreal's Trueshot Barrage? Are the blades on Talon's Rake considered to be projectiles - they have travel time and are in the air - or does the fact they're tethered and return to him make them exempt? What about the blades created by his ultimate? Can a Fiddlesticks crow hit the wall before it bounces off someone, after it bounces off someone, both, or neither?
And perhaps the most important question: do we really need to make total horseshit abilities like Terrify even better by making things that block actual skillshots while letting all the bullshit it? Inquiring minds want to know.
Imperfected
Member
I'm mostly kidding. I wouldn't really want to see the OGN teams playing on the preseason patch in its current state, because no one is able to play seriously with things as they stand right this minute. Maybe in a few weeks when they have their first non-joke preseason patch on Live.
?
I don't get it :/
yeah the q and ult ratio nerfs are small thing, but the utility scaling is pretty poor. like all her spells already scale pretty poorly, and a .1 ratio on her ms boost and a .05 on her e slow is pretty lame.
like say you got athene's and the kage support item, that's like 140 ap or something. it's 14 more ms, half the reduction on her w bounces and 5% more slow (since it's actually 5% per 100 ap). not really that impressive, though 14 more ms is pretty nice.
I mean I'll get her those items but I can't say I'm amazed by the sudden surge of power that money gave me (aside from cdr+mp5)
Stone Ocean
Member
Your adc doesn't have to last hit for you to get the gold from the Coin. As long as you're near the minion when he dies and you didn't kill it, you get the gold. It's actually really good with adcs that can't last hit since you'll get the gold if minions or turrets get the kills lolcoin is the most boring of the bunch, and it gives no fighting stats so I wonder why would anyone take it in the first place (plus if your adc can't cs for shit you're doomed
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
Finally got a jungle game. Early jungle clears are much harder now. And you aren't even level 3 by the time you kill the buffs.
With so much early vision, any decent counter jungler will set you back a lot.
No wonder everyone is going 2-1-2.
With so much early vision, any decent counter jungler will set you back a lot.
No wonder everyone is going 2-1-2.
AdventChild
Neo Member
My god. That gold income at jungle so facking gooooood.
My main jungler Jarvan IV reached full build and 2.5k left at 42min without being fed, just like 6 or 7 kills.
My main jungler Jarvan IV reached full build and 2.5k left at 42min without being fed, just like 6 or 7 kills.
oh lol didn't know that
also my last s3 thresh game vs my first s4 thresh game (in both games I did awful lol, all my recent games I've been playing like trash):
seriously the amount of gold you now have is ridiculous, but I dunno, doesn't feel as good as I thought it would. I think it's mostly because the support items aside from the gp10 items are kinda lame and taking items from other classes doesn't feel so hot.
PROGRAM_IX
Member
You know I would log in to NA with 180 ping for this. Worth man. GP/Panth bot lane too good.
His AS is soooo painfully slow though. >.< Do you mean his E steroid?
I used it for laughing. No more joy.
Presumably the Trinkets are bound to T by default.
Crab Milk Mickey
Member
The hypothetical trinket and elixir could have a really low cooldown (like old Executioner's Calling, 10 seconds) and trigger on every auto-attack / spell respectively. With further rules in place to prevent abuse cases of course, but I'm not a designer and I don't envy whoever has to go through that balancing act over at Riot right now. That said, they should've introduced options like this long ago if they felt certain champs had overbearing sustain rather than nerfing those into obscurity, never mind them hypocritically turning a blind eye to favorites like Susan.
Not to say the idea doesn't have flaws, but it's one of several niches that's lacking in itemization choices overall.
Nah, that'll be empowered Karma Q once people get the memo she's really good.
AdventChild
Neo Member
1v1 a supp can be dangerous now xD
oh, right, I had my sixth item bound to t, and would place actives there, like zhonya's, dfg, etc.
BriseFlots
Member
So happy to hear that. Because I like her but she gets so much hate.
With the frostfang gold item series I feel like she'll be quite powerful in S4
Well, they are actually bound to 4 by default. Wait, maybe I misunderstood something. Hm.
ah i was trying to ask him what he used on T and got used to. the msg went across eventually.
CERTAINLYT ANSWERS
windwall "all projectiles"
E CD is around 0.5-1s. He cant dash at a target multiples times in a row though, like udyr bear stance. E movement is a set amount, like fizz Q. can dodge his E-Q combos due to this
PROGRAM_IX
Member
Nah, you're probably right and I'm wrong. I haven't touched the new patch yet, that was just a presumption based on what Boken said. And also that T isn't used in the game by default. And also that T stands for trinket.
Edit after Boken's other post: yep, I didn't see zkylon mention T at all, so thought Boken was indicating the default thing for T was now trinket.
Stone Ocean
Member
Buy the non-support expensive shit yo.
I went sunfire Karma yesterday and was having a blast dueling their Riven.
Imperfected
Member
Probably not, Sword picked a pretty awful triple AD comp.
Mister Wilhelm
Member
So far, I really like the S4 changes.
PhillipCostigan
Member
yo, Quinn + Pantheon bot lanes are going to be terror, believe.
Yasuo's kit looks interesting I guess. Double crit chance seems insane. Hopefully he goes up on PBE later so we can test. I'm interested to see how well his kit flows. While CertainlyT's champs are always broken as fuck for a while at least, their kits flow really well.
I like his design too. yeah, it's pretty generic Samurai wanderer dude, but I'm ok with that.
Also wb zkylon
Yasuo's kit looks interesting I guess. Double crit chance seems insane. Hopefully he goes up on PBE later so we can test. I'm interested to see how well his kit flows. While CertainlyT's champs are always broken as fuck for a while at least, their kits flow really well.
I like his design too. yeah, it's pretty generic Samurai wanderer dude, but I'm ok with that.
Also wb zkylon
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