• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

League of Legends |OT5| Premade Bot

Status
Not open for further replies.

Burt

Member
Hilarious to me that Shyv was trash tier since end of season 2 and now she's op as fuck even though her rework came out in July.
Definitely just a result of people not being willing to experiment. Everyone is garbage tier until a pro kicks ass with them in a game and people flood in to try the same.

Most notable example was probably Ezreal about a year ago or whenever he first got super popular. At first everyone was like "lawl what a shit champ everything is a skillshot" then pros started showing him off and he's been pretty high up on the ADC tier list ever since.

Same thing happened with Nasus. Everyone was just used to thinking he was shit unless you spent an hour farming him and he never got too many actual buffs (outside of his Q changing to flat cost), but every single itemization change in like the last year+ has been a massive stealth buff to him. Ice born Gauntlet, Trinity buffs, Spirit Visage, Ancient Golem, etc. People still thought he was shit because they never saw improvements in the patch notes, but once he started getting some stream time everyone woke up and he caught on hard well after itemization had improved him.
 

Kenai

Member
Definitely just a result of people not being willing to experiment. Everyone is garbage tier until a pro kicks ass with them in a game and people flood in to try the same.

Most notable example was probably Ezreal about a year ago or whenever he first got super popular. At first everyone was like "lawl what a shit champ everything is a skillshot" then pros started showing him off and he's been pretty high up on the ADC tier list ever since.

Ziggs too. I played him a ton last season and the buff to him only really affected his ability to waveclear a bit + make his satchel easier to use for escaping/disruption. His actual damage vs champions and vs things like towers w Lichbane is the same as its been since i started playing almost 2 years ago.
 
Ziggs became popular again because of his little buff and, you know, all the assassin's under the sun getting nerfed.

Shyvana was helped by a massive meta-shift where tanky/bruisery top-laners started to get a lot of play again, and also S4 masteries.

Not every champion resurgence is because a streamer played a champion a few times.
 
There were always champions that did Ziggs job better than Ziggs till now. Plus, he was bad against assassins, so I'm not surprised that he's picked up now that they all got nerfed.
 

Burt

Member
Ziggs became popular again because of his little buff and, you know, all the assassin's under the sun getting nerfed.

Shyvana was helped by a massive meta-shift where tanky/bruisery top-laners started to get a lot of play again, and also S4 masteries.

Not every champion resurgence is because a streamer played a champion a few times.
Nah, only about 80% of the time.
 

Kenai

Member
Ziggs became popular again because of his little buff and, you know, all the assassin's under the sun getting nerfed.

Again? I don't remember him ever being this popular before. I think there's more to it than that + assassins. There's quite a few mages who I thought'd be more popular this season who haven't been so far. Lux in particular since she was really popular when I started, but also Annie, Xerath, Malazar, Cass, Ori, Zyra and Morg just aren't played mid as much as I thought they'd be. Over half of those champs haven't been touched (or have been buffed) prior to the assassin nerfs too, so I'm totally expecting a "sudden" resurgence if those champs are "rediscovered" at some tournament.
 
Remember when only Wickd and Youngbuck would play Renekton from time to time? Good times!

Again? I don't remember him ever being this popular before. I think there's more to it than that + assassins. There's quite a few mages who I thought'd be more popular this season who haven't been so far. Lux in particular since she was really popular when I started, but also Annie, Xerath, Malazar, Cass, Ori, Zyra and Morg just aren't played mid as much as I thought they'd be. Over half of those champs haven't been touched (or have been buffed) prior to the assassin nerfs too, so I'm totally expecting a "sudden" resurgence if those champs are "rediscovered" at some tournament.

Ori's still a top pick. Annie/Zyra are just better as supports now versus putting them mid. Cass doesn't fit team comps anymore, and most people only picked her cuz she was awesome against Ryze.

Even though AD assassins got nerfed they'd still poop all over morgana.

I expect Lux and Anivia to make a comeback at some point.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
Again? I don't remember him ever being this popular before. I think there's more to it than that + assassins. There's quite a few mages who I thought'd be more popular this season who haven't been so far. Lux in particular since she was really popular when I started, but also Annie, Xerath, Malazar, Cass, Ori, Zyra and Morg just aren't played mid as much as I thought they'd be. Over half of those champs haven't been touched (or have been buffed) prior to the assassin nerfs too, so I'm totally expecting a "sudden" resurgence if those champs are "rediscovered" at some tournament.
Big difference is that ziggs is broken, while ori or Cass are merely strong, an lux is sadly garbage :(
 

Kenai

Member
Big difference is that ziggs is broken, while ori or Cass are merely strong, an lux is sadly garbage :(

What has changed about him that makes him broken vs last year or even last summer when I got laughed at for playing him?

I really like him and don't want to see him crushed into oblivion following nerfbats so I would like specifics, I don't want him to be overpowered but you might understand the desire to have him balanced rather than the alternatives.
 

FODEA

Banned
What has changed about him that makes him broken vs last year or even last summer when I got laughed at for playing him?

I really like him and don't want to see him crushed into oblivion following nerfbats so I would like specifics, I don't want him to be overpowered but you might understand the desire to have him balanced rather than the alternatives.

His Q just casts now - before if you smartcasted it outside of its natural circle, you walked forward (into whatever is in front of you). His minefield (E?) now clears minion waves much better - it just does more damage to minions.

Then there's the nerf to assassins who love to jump on champion types like Ziggs/Lux. So Ziggs range got more effective (no more running forward to cast skills if you misclick out of range) and everything else got less powerful - Ahri, Zed, Kassadin, etc...
 
Ha! Finally! I'm not the only one with the worst luck.

a29K16W.png
*

*Commando Garen, and Garen, are for free in LAN/LAS.
It's pretty much like getting Riot Tristana or Unchained Alistar.
 
got Reverse Annie as a gift! :D

...and in return, they got Warring Kingdoms Xin. I really wanted that Annie skin too. Worked our really well for all parties that time. Guess I'll continue to wait for that Spirit Guard Udyr gift :(
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
tons of people were playing shyv top post the july rework. she was known about long before she showed up in any pro games.

She's been a favorite for a lot of people for a while

Edit: Just found out you can use ignite, other spells, and some items during Fiora's ult lmao
 
Lux isn't "garbage" even if she's one of those 'constantly be very mindful of your positioning' champions and Irelia deserved every single nerf; she's still extremely stupid to play against and I'm not looking forward to the day when she'll inevitably return as soon as Renekton / Shyvanna get hit by the nerfbat far too often due to knee-jerk solo queue whining. Irelia + any gank jungler was full of traumatic experiences back when everyone played her.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
What has changed about him that makes him broken vs last year or even last summer when I got laughed at for playing him?

I really like him and don't want to see him crushed into oblivion following nerfbats so I would like specifics, I don't want him to be overpowered but you might understand the desire to have him balanced rather than the alternatives.
well I always felt he was too strong, and I was dumbfounded when they buffed him recently, so it's not like something has changed, people just have caught up to him since everyone's moved on from the assassin meta. kinda similar to syndra, she got that minuscule e buff that maker her a bit smoother to play and people that were maybe eyeing her from the distance finally realized she's really strong.

personally I would love they made his q have scaling cd (so it's like 8/7/6/5/4, or something less drastic and fairer heh) and lowered the damage on his passive. he gets way too much free harass from his passive and it just makes it impossible to trade against him.

got Reverse Annie as a gift! :D

...and in return, they got Warring Kingdoms Xin. I really wanted that Annie skin too. Worked our really well for all parties that time. Guess I'll continue to wait for that Spirit Guard Udyr gift :(
good job, you get the best annie :)

Ok. This is really tempting:


57 USD.

Worth it?
I'd say yes then ask for a link so I can see if he has an orianna doll :3

well to be honest it doesn't look super hot but it's pretty nice. I just hate fizz heh
 
Lux isn't "garbage" even if she's one of those 'constantly be very mindful of your positioning' champions and Irelia deserved every single nerf; she's still extremely stupid to play against and I'm not looking forward to the day when she'll inevitably return as soon as Renekton / Shyvanna get hit by the nerfbat far too often due to knee-jerk solo queue whining. Irelia + any gank jungler was full of traumatic experiences back when everyone played her.

Don't think those Renekton nerfs are coming tbh. He's been a toplane regular since the start of season 3 and the last time he was buffed was 18 months ago.

Irelia will come back when Vayne/Kog are the hyper carry of choice again.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
Lux isn't "garbage" even if she's one of those 'constantly be very mindful of your positioning' champions and Irelia deserved every single nerf; she's still extremely stupid to play against and I'm not looking forward to the day when she'll inevitably return as soon as Renekton / Shyvanna get hit by the nerfbat far too often due to knee-jerk solo queue whining. Irelia + any gank jungler was full of traumatic experiences back when everyone played her.
lux is useless yo, it pains me to say it as she's my most played champion and I love her laugh and everything about her but she's bottom tier right now. she needs to snowball harder than pantheon to be of any relevance in the game and even then she's just so easy to kill for any of these now-stronger junglers it's just painful.
 

Kenai

Member
well I always felt he was too strong, and I was dumbfounded when they buffed him recently, so it's not like something has changed, people just have caught up to him since everyone's moved on from the assassin meta. kinda similar to syndra, she got that minuscule e buff that maker her a bit smoother to play and people that were maybe eyeing her from the distance finally realized she's really strong.

"You always felt he was too strong" how? Strong enough to never be played and never have much of a w/l ratio worth bragging about til 3 months ago? Strong at things (like great pushing/zoning/early game harass) that just didn't matter until now? He's received a small buff/qol fix to his W, his E has no more dr on minions, and his ult mana cost has been lowered at higher levels (I think). That's it! His normal build and everything else have been around for awhile.

I don't necessarily care about nerfs as long as they don't totally break him since I've been playing him so long that it'd be hard to drive me away, but I do not want them to go to things that don't actually matter. Ziggs should be allowed to be good if the meta actually shifted to make him a good pick (which it sounds like is the case) especially when so many other mages are frankly just waiting for some pro to pick them up before they are suddenly amazing again, like Syndra.

Edit: I don't mean to sound harsh so please don't take it that way and I'm sorry if I'm being whiny, I just want to think of theoretical nerfs/things to suggest since I don't play much ranked. If Ziggs really is too good despite his buff/nerf history I know what must be done. I might be overthinking things, since I don't think I'd mind Ziggs going back to a niche pick.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
"You always felt he was too strong" how? Strong enough to never be played and never have much of a w/l ratio worth bragging about til 3 months ago? Strong at things (like great pushing/zoning/early game harass) that just didn't matter until now? He's received a small buff/qol fix to his W, his E has no more dr on minions, and his ult mana cost has been lowered at higher levels (I think). That's it! His normal build and everything else have been around for awhile.
winrate doesn't mean much, zed and vayne and shen were always low winrate champions and they were still super duper contested picks for the longest of times. pro pickrate does matter, but the assassin meta just didn't have room for a champion like ziggs. same with a lot of midlaners, really, not just him.

I always felt it was impossible to do bad with ziggs from playing against him and then from experience playing him, I don't understand what you want me to say beyond that

also pushing, zoning and early game harass might've not been too important in pro games (tho orianna, gragas, zed and nidalee were all played before s4 and they all have that) but that doesn't matter in solo q, because not everyone plays assassins. I play mostly mages, and it's just not possible to beat ziggs in lane, and it's been this way before he got his qol buffs.

I don't necessarily care about nerfs as long as they don't totally break him since I've been playing him so long that it'd be hard to drive me away, but I do not want them to go to things that don't actually matter. Ziggs should be allowed to be good if the meta actually shifted to make him a good pick (which it sounds like is the case) especially when so many other mages are frankly just waiting for some pro to pick them up before they are suddenly amazing again, like Syndra.
I have no problems with ziggs being good, which is why those nerfs are just for allowing you to be able to beat him in some way.

and actually I didn't know he had scaling cooldowns on his q so I'm dumb lol. then maybe the passive nerf is just enough. making the passive cd reduction work only on champions might be another nice nerf that doesn't completely break him.

Edit: I don't mean to sound harsh so please don't take it that way and I'm sorry if I'm being whiny, I just want to think of theoretical nerfs/things to suggest since I don't play much ranked. If Ziggs really is too good despite his buff/nerf history I know what must be done. I might be overthinking things, since I don't think I'd mind Ziggs going back to a niche pick.
nah that's alright, you gotta protect your waifus.

the only damage I think might be good for lowering might be passive. all the other things I can think of is the passive reset thingie and maybe nerf his ultimate radious, range or make it's damage a lot more bullseye-focused. q cd I had in mind but I always thought it was a static 4s cd so I guess it's alright.
 

Kenai

Member
I always felt it was impossible to do bad with ziggs from playing against him and then from experience playing him, I don't understand what you want me to say beyond that

So you think he might be too easy to play and also too hard for most other mages to play against. Now we are getting somewhere, and I just might agree with you about it to an extent. Most of the characters that do really well against Ziggs also just happen to have a not that great laning phase and Ziggs can capitalize on that, or push back pretty easy if they try to roam. A scaling passive that ended up the same lategame would be something I could get behind.

and actually I didn't know he had scaling cooldowns on his q so I'm dumb lol. then maybe the passive nerf is just enough. making the passive cd reduction work only on champions might be another nice nerf that doesn't completely break him.

That could work too. An early passive nerf wouldn't really hurt him as long as it was the same thing late game. I genuinely think his lategame is not very good (it's just usually masked by an almost always great laning phase) and would be sad if nerfs hurt that.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
So you think he might be too easy to play and also too hard for most other mages to play against. Now we are getting somewhere, and I just might agree with you about it to an extent. Most of the characters that do really well against Ziggs also just happen to have a not that great laning phase and Ziggs can capitalize on that, or push back pretty easy if they try to roam. A scaling passive that ended up the same lategame would be something I could get behind.

That could work too. An early passive nerf wouldn't really hurt him as long as it was the same thing late game. I genuinely think his lategame is not very good (it's just usually masked by an almost always great laning phase) and would be sad if nerfs hurt that.
I don't think he's necessarily too easy to play, but it's too easy to do well with him. I played him only 4 times so I'm no expert and this is anecdotal evidence of the worst kind but in 3 of them I got fed in laning phase and the other one I just ulted other lanes and compensated how terrible I played. and even if I was doing pretty bad ori still couldn't do shit to me. I've played against him a bunch of times and I don't think I ever won lane.

so yea laning the problem, he can poke you from a distance or flat out kill you if you get close, and his disengage is a bit wonky but it's actually really nice to use. I've dodged vi's q with some quick reflexes, it's awesome.

like his passive already scales with level, but maybe it scales way too hard. on level 5 he deals like 50 more damage on his super basic attack and that passive is up all the fricking time. like ori deals 25 on her second windup on every basic attack but she's also got a lot less range, she moves slower, has a lot less base and scaling ad and she like wins in scaling attack speed but c'mon.

edit: just now understood how his passive works. it's not 50, but rather 13+7+35%ap at level 5. so it bumps up at certain levels. ok, that's a lot more balanced. jeez every time I want to nerf this champion he pulls the rug from under me lol

so yea ideas would be (don't have to do all ofc, just spitballing here):
  • passive only resets on champions (maybe it has half effect on minions or something)
  • make his ult more about the bullseye since it's so easy to land
  • lower his movement speed to 325 like all the other pokemasters (I'd rather not do this since it's really painful but for the sake of balance he should be a low mobility champion)
  • lower his range to 550
  • lower passive damage. I'd really remove his weird scaling on his passive, like "13 + (7 / 8 / 9 / 10 at each level) (+ 35% AP)" is too weird. just make it like 13 + 7 per level + 39% AP or something.
 
*wubstep after one minute, video ruined*

Don't think those Renekton nerfs are coming tbh. He's been a toplane regular since the start of season 3 and the last time he was buffed was 18 months ago.

Irelia will come back when Vayne/Kog are the hyper carry of choice again.
I don't think he should be nerfed, but it wouldn't be the first time Riot listened to 'feedback' from solo queue players with regards to binary melee champions. Just look at how they gutted Xin Zhao when he was finally in a decent spot again post-rework, among other examples.

lux is useless yo, it pains me to say it as she's my most played champion and I love her laugh and everything about her but she's bottom tier right now. she needs to snowball harder than pantheon to be of any relevance in the game and even then she's just so easy to kill for any of these now-stronger junglers it's just painful.
Hyperbole given how tiny her nerfs have been relative to other champs that are legitimately bottom tier. She's always been easy to kill (even when she was FotM), so with Lux it's moreso a matter of her requiring more effort given the nature of her kit (all skillshots, no disengage or on-demand mobility) than some of the other popular champs with the way the game is being played currently, rather than her spells being weak. You could make a case of her not synergizing well enough with common picks nowadays and thus a little more dependant on either pick order or which allied champions have been chosen, which would be a reasonable complaint, but she's still plenty strong in the right situations.

chu8 (who's been using Lux for ages) said she's more than fine as well if I recall correctly, and he's a better player than either of us with more overall experience to boot.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
whatever, next to bottom, she still has a bad matchup against everyone but karthus, gets outscaled by most of the mid roster and is the slowest and squishiest champion in the game.

maybe if lee sin and elise weren't played every game she might be alright but this is the kind of world we live in

edit: and nerfs don't exist in a vaccuum, athene's and tear both got nerfed delaying her mid-game powerspike even more too, and ms nerfs (losing 10 movement speed is not a tiny nerf, wth) are brutal, specially for someone that relies so much on positioning and skillshots. also 25% more cooldown on her max rank ult is another big nerf. seriously I dunno why you call them tiny, they were big nerfs, you can debate if they were deserved or not but she didn't even get your usual pity qol buffs or whatever.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
Lulu is really weak right now. She doesn't have much of an effect on back lines and her ability to interrupt front lines is pretty low as well. As things shift to a tankier meta her inability to provide a more continued peel makes her not very useful. Also you would need 800 AP to give an ally 1k health.
 
whatever, next to bottom, she still has a bad matchup against everyone but karthus, gets outscaled by most of the mid roster and is the slowest and squishiest champion in the game.

maybe if lee sin and elise weren't played every game she might be alright but this is the kind of world we live in

edit: and nerfs don't exist in a vaccuum, athene's and tear both got nerfed delaying her mid-game powerspike even more too, and ms nerfs (losing 10 movement speed is not a tiny nerf, wth) are brutal, specially for someone that relies so much on positioning and skillshots. also 25% more cooldown on her max rank ult is another big nerf. seriously I dunno why you call them tiny, they were big nerfs, you can debate if they were deserved or not but she didn't even get your usual pity qol buffs or whatever.
Tear was usually a trap on Lux and those item nerfs affected everyone anyways. Lux' match-ups and scaling are nowhere near as bad you make them out to be. The 10 reduced movement speed is the only meaningful nerf, so I agree with your comment on that. The shield one is up for debate, given how much more potent and easier Karma's is. And don't give me inflated percentages. 25%? She lost 10 seconds on her flat cooldowns at max rank; that's miniscule. It'd almost be like saying that Jinx' 130% attack speed buff on her max rank Q is ridiculously OP... even though she has some of the worst innate attack speed stats in the game (also Tristana's Q laughs at her) for an ADC.

I don't play her very often anymore either so I understand where you're coming from, but for me it's due to other reasons and far from her supposedly being "bottom tier" or anything like that.
 
AP Lulu is really, really scary.

I hear that Ozone played her in their quarterfinals against the World Champions! That's how you know she's legit.

(They lost 0-3.)

I'm going to be honest, I think on-hit machinegun Lulu is probably better than AP Lulu with the current state she's in.
 

Einbroch

Banned
Help, Pix! RANGE: 650

what.

Glitterlance: Lulu and Pix each fire a magic bolt

what. Plus, unless you're fighting Caitlyn, Kog'Maw, Twitch ult'd, Tristana, or Jinx with her rockets out, you have more range than any champion.

Christ guys, it's super easy to put Pix on someone and hit at least 4/5 in a teamfight with Glitterlance, dealing 350+ damage after resists and slowing them by at least 60% for two seconds. The Pix target get hit for over 700.
 

Subtle

Member
How do you stop a team with a fed Tryndamere, Katharina, Kha'Zix, Caitlyn, and Annie? Split pushing and resets galore. Thankfully we were ahead in kills, but that didn't stop them from taking every tower except for our mid inhibitor tower. We got lucky and caught a few people out which led to a free Baron and eventually the win. We'd easily win a 5v5 team fight but never got it.

Edit: our team was Volibear, Olaf, Lux, Jinx, and Nami. Ended up getting a Bork because I needed the chasing power.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom