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[Dreams-Visions]

okay so I just watched this Live match and this is what I was referring to in my Ren observations

Is this atypical? Because this is what I was referring to. The Ren in this high elo match played with one purpose: 100% someone in team fights (Oria or Lucian 100% of the time), then skirt around until the cooldowns were off and go back in with whatever hp he had left. Heavy on the damage, light on the defense. Just enough defense to allow him to get away after murdering someone maybe 50% of the time but not so much defense that he can't 100% someone (or get damn close to it).

Whereas the defensive approach I was referring to makes him look more like Garen (Cleaver + 3 defensive items)...where he's lucky to 50% someone, let alone 100%. Was the early conversation simply a matter of confusion around what defines "going defensive", or is going even more defensive than this recommended/viable? Because in my definitions there's a difference between "getting enough defense to survive while bursting" and "going tank". If that makes sense.

 

[dimb]

that isn't how rengar is normally (and arguably optimally) played. he probably just didn't feel the need to buy visage because enemy magic damage was so low, but tbh running a hydra instead of cleaver gives you more survivability, better burst, and better clears.

 

[brian!]

u itemize according to the game cmon l00k at the items on the board esp lee

 

[dimb]

u itemize according to the game cmon l00k at the items on the board esp lee

his kda and cs are in the junker though. problem with buying something like cleaver against lee and j4 is that they will outduel him long term without tank-centric items that boost rengar's sustain. dude just got carried by his bot lane and leblanc kept ori from being relevant. switching to an all offensive build just because you see one or two light armor items coming out or panicking and buying black cleaver isn't really the right way to play the game.

hydra+visage is the power combo on rengar because it gives high sustain and cdr, which both make him relevant in long term fights while he still has enough burst for squishies.

 

[brian!]

yuh i agree on cleaver
im talking about tunneling on builds and not understanding what you are trying to accomplish with particular builds

in a game that you are rolling which is kinda what this game looks like its fine to buy damage, its fine to not build more tank against a lee that's probably going e->w, that you might not be able to outpush, etc.

 

[dimb]

in a game that you are rolling which is kinda what this game looks like its fine to buy damage, its fine to not build more tank against a lee that you might not be able to outpush, etc.

sure. but a lot of the time it isn't about out pushing as much as it is trying to maintain some type of parity. it's really hard to roam effectively on rengar when you can't wave clear fast. that's also something that clearly happened here and hurt the guy's cs.

 

[brian!]

yes yes i agree, though I think he wave clears fine with what he has, tho not optimally
and i didnt read that dreamz vizion was talking about twizted treeline

 

[DeadNames]

Speaking of CS, what should I aim for by 20 minutes?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Just caught this one where he went with the aforementioned tank/push approach, maxing roar first. I'd definitely classify this one as defensive and it was marginally successful. He got literally half of his kills in garbage time (enemy team damn near fountain diving and such), but before then he was 5/4/5 or so and it was interesting to watch. I'm sure many of you have seen it quite a bit, but it was a first for me. He went sunfire + visage + Tabi's first and ended up picking up the full TF when the match was all but decided. He farmed really well for the first 15 minutes or so with the W spam.

The team fight contribution was interesting if not a bit odd. He'd just kinda scare someone off (he was bursting for maybe only 40%-50% of Ahri's HP for perspective) which I assume is what dimb was referring to when discussing him as a "disruptive force". He was definitely that, forcing people to come help peel him off which gave his team windows to deal some damage. The value of having a teammate that can do that out of nowhere is clear. Most of his early kills came from ulting and jumping on people who were trying to get away with < 50% of their HP.

As with all tank builds, I'm sure that if his team had been able to deal more damage the team would have been more successful. As it were they didn't have that damage and Rengar not being able to 100% Ahri or Lucian mid game (or late game) meant those champs were able to stay alive and continue dealing tons of damage to his teammates...which they did. Once Ren got his TF up, he was a problem. I think if he had built that in between the Visage and Sunfire he would have been able to turn the tides of that match.

It was a learning experience, and I look forward to seeing more matches like this. It most certainly is viable. BUT...idunno. I feel like there are better champs out there to choose from if tanking and split pushing are your objectives. Not that Ren appeared to be bad at it. Quite the opposite. It just felt like his contribution to team fights was less than what a tank Nasus/Garen/Renek offer. Though the element of surprise is something none of them offer, and he can certainly burst people down quite a bit when he eventually does buy some damage items. He just...idunno. The build feels like it relies on team fights to last a really long time. Long enough to be able to use all of his QWE abilities at least twice.

 

[drawkcaB]

Also, what's changing with him in the future patches?

Completely off the top of my head...

Q attack speed bonus reduced (not totally clear on this, but I don't think the ferocity Q provides additional attack speed). Ferocity Q now gives three ferocity stacks on use.
E is not a skill shot but otherwise better (stronger CC, more damage)
Ferocity bonuses for Q and E will not scale with champion level and not skill level, like W currently does.
R now gives an immediate massive movement speed boost that lasts a long time. After a few seconds, Rengar can stealth but loses movement speed bonus. In addition, they were testing revealing rengar once he jumps out of stealth as opposed to when he lands/hits his target and consuming his ferocity stacks on activation to increase the duration.

 

[Mister Negative]

To follow up on this. Repelling counter jungling is sometimes tough and requires your team to help if you are behind or not a strong dueling jungler. If they have your buffs timed then you should too. Then you can prep for the incoming counter jungling. Ward the buff a minute beforehand and try to pink and/or vision trinket where you expect they warded. If they have no vision they shouldn't want to invade. Also make your team aware of the impending invasion and ping the crap out of it. Your team can collapse on the invasion and punish him for it. That will usually scare them off future invasions and help reduce the advantage they have.

Sometimes you just need to suck it up, ward your own jungle entrances and farm.

Sorry I forgot about this convo. You can't ignore your lanes but don't take anything they say to heart. People have to accept that they will lose their lane sometimes and have to be able to deal with it. If your bot lane has fed 2 or more kills and the enemy has backed its not worth doing down there anymore. You're better off snowballing mid or top and the same goes for other lanes.
Counter jungling is a team effort if your team is slow to close in and punish stuff like that(or if they dont care at all) youre in for repeated deaths. If the opposing jungler kills you once or twice he will have your jungle warded out and buffs timed. You will notice counter jungling go terribly wrong if you have the right wards out and your team closes in on the enemy who is trying to invade you.

Thanks for the tips guys. The thing is that at my level, beyond an initial invade, counter jungling isn't something you really see very much. The most counterjungling I've ever done is see a jungler in lane without a buff while that buff was up, so I go take it. This guy was just so incredibly aggressive I had no idea what to do.

Also, you guys see this video of a Pix blocking a Cait ult?

 

[KiwiLannister]

Now I'm 12-1 on Blitz. I wonder if there is some sort of record I can break.

I was 11-0 with Khazix jungle.

Spoiler

Then I lost like 5 straight

Also tank rengar is a beast. Still great for pick comps with his fully stacked e, does ridiculous tower damage, and just bullies most champs out of top with his stupid sustain.

Meanwhile AD rengar is very weird to fit into a team comp. You basically only want top rengar, and if your top is an assassin you will obviously need a really tanky jungle and probably support as well. It also means having an assassin mid is redundant. Also I find a fed ad rengar kind of a waste since you basically blow up one target in a teamfight, and then get blown up yourself. Better to have the gold on your carry or something instead. Ad rengar is just a weird pick where tank rengar fits in pick/split push comps, can peel for your carry if needed, and is useful all game.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Speaking of CS, what should I aim for by 20 minutes?

You want as close to 10 CS per minute as you can get. So 200 CS by 20 minutes is ideal.

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

It was still funny and he certainly wasn't wrong. He was just rude about it.

He isn't wrong, but Sky being funny about something (especially when this is a mild case of pot meets kettle) would be a first.

Completely off the top of my head...

Q attack speed bonus reduced (not totally clear on this, but I don't think the ferocity Q provides additional attack speed). Ferocity Q now gives three ferocity stacks on use.
E is not a skill shot but otherwise better (stronger CC, more damage)
Ferocity bonuses for Q and E will not scale with champion level and not skill level, like W currently does.
R now gives an immediate massive movement speed boost that lasts a long time. After a few seconds, Rengar can stealth but loses movement speed bonus. In addition, they were testing revealing rengar once he jumps out of stealth as opposed to when he lands/hits his target and consuming his ferocity stacks on activation to increase the duration.

They're also changing his Bola Strike to be a skillshot, if I remember their most recent plans surrounding the tentative rework correctly.

Also Dreams-Visions: both Rengars in the match result screens you uploaded had questionable itemization.

 

[Type2]

Gonna post my lolparse since I have just yet:

Champion| Games played| Minutes played
Fizz 131 3,566
JarvanIV 95 2,896
LeeSin 85 2,169
Nasus 80 2,542
Anivia 71 2,493
Diana 65 1,506



First game
Fri Oct 19 2012
Total games played
1,444
Minutes spent playing
39,288
Total number of summoners played with
9,026
Favorite champion
Fizz (131 games, 3,566 minutes)

 

[zkylon]

Speaking of CS, what should I aim for by 20 minutes?

220 minions spawn by minute 20. I think getting anything 180-200 is usually pretty good if you're a farming champion. gotta get them wraiths tho

Gonna post my lolparse since I have just yet:

fizz, lee sin, jarvan

fuck you dude :/

 

[Type2]

220 minions spawn by minute 20. I think getting anything 180-200 is usually pretty good if you're a farming champion. gotta get them wraiths tho


fizz, lee sin, jarvan

fuck you dude :/

Fizz and Anivia were played mainly leveling up. Fizz was the first champ I bought. I have no regrets.
Lee sin is the foundation of every jungler.

 

[Nekofrog]

I'm locking myself in my recording studio (living room...) for the rest of the night. I need to make progress on my album, and League is too distracting. D:

 

[ALN1031]

fizz, lee sin, jarvan

fuck you dude :/

Wait til you see mine, lol:

Ziggs 104 2,705
Nidalee 63 2,109
LeeSin 35 959
Tristana 34 1,155
Leblanc 33 555
Gangplank 33 888
TwistedFate 32 882
Yasuo 30 814


First game
Fri May 17 2013
Total games played
968
Minutes spent playing
28,151
Total number of summoners played with
4,526
Favorite champion
Ziggs (104 games, 2,705 minutes)


Btw, a considerable number of those Tristana games are AP Tristana.

 

[CRS]

Is there anyone around mid to lower level 20s that want to team up? I'm getting extremely horrible teammates and it's getting to the point where I'm about to give up for a while.

 

[Wolf Akela]

Me likey.

 

[Nekofrog]

Me likey.

If you flash at the start of the game, you'll get to lane before your opponent.

 

[ALN1031]

If you flash at the start of the game, you'll get to lane before your opponent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMu4kQUF5kU

 

[Nekofrog]

FUCK IT I'm not motivated to do music, throw invites when we play again. In the meantime, I am going to eat this delicious, delicious drumstick.

 

[garath]

Fun couple of games tonight. Even though we got stomped the second game. Shvana is such freelo. I should have gone jax or darius second game instead of Olaf though. I have like 5 games with Olaf.

But I'm general I'm pretty weak at top lane. Its so matchup oriented and I don't know any of them.

 

[Mister Negative]

I just messed up my smite at level 1 and gave my Olaf red

but it's okay because he got first blood. new meta.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Also Dreams-Visions: both Rengars in the match result screens you uploaded had questionable itemization.

oic. I'll keep that in mind and if I notice more Rengars in the Live tab I'll watch.

Thx for the continuing edumication, guys.

 

[zkylon]

Fizz and Anivia were played mainly leveling up. Fizz was the first champ I bought. I have no regrets.
Lee sin is the foundation of every jungler.

fuck all the junglers

Wait til you see mine, lol:

Ziggs 104 2,705
Nidalee 63 2,109
LeeSin 35 959
Tristana 34 1,155
Leblanc 33 555
Gangplank 33 888
TwistedFate 32 882
Yasuo 30 814

Btw, a considerable number of those Tristana games are AP Tristana.

surprised there's no ryze in there

Me likey.

much better, good job riot

 

[ALN1031]

surprised there's no ryze in there

Wow, for some reason, I feel like I'm supposed to feel insulted. Incidentally, I picked up Ryze a few days ago because he does lots of damage and tanks stuff.

 

[Bacon]

One of the most common advice given to new level 30s is to not jump into Ranked right away. Your placement matches are pretty much the most important matches you will ever play for determining your MMR. If you screw up these matches, it could take you hundreds of hours to get to where you're supposed to be, or at least, a respectable division. If I started all over, what I'd do is play tons of Normal Drafts, treat it extremely seriously and aim to find mistakes and correct them, and use LolNexus to see the league of the people I'm matched against. Once my normal mmr is at a high level and I'm playing against, say, golds or platinums or diamonds(depending on your personal goal) and I can win confidently against such opponents, I will go to Ranked. Just a warning, if you want to reliably climb in Ranked, you will need to carry hard. There will be no hyper carrying in ranked with Soraka support unless you're leagues above the enemy.


EDIT: That being said, I do believe that playing Ranked will allow you to learn to play better faster, the stakes are higher, people are more serious, and basically it's different from Normals. If you absolutely do not mind risking being placed in a low elo and having to struggle climbing out, I believe it's a pretty educational experience for improving your play.

Thanks for this post! Extremely helpful and insightful. I jumped into a normal draft and could tell that the game was already being taken more serious than what I was used to.

 

[zkylon]

Wow, for some reason, I feel like I'm supposed to feel insulted. Incidentally, I picked up Ryze a few days ago because he does lots of damage and tanks stuff.

I'm cool with people playing ryze since he's now been nerfed to the ground

Thanks for this post! Extremely helpful and insightful. I jumped into a normal draft and could tell that the game was already being taken more serious than what I was used to.

can't believe there's still no draft pick normals in latam.

imagine playing draft pick 24/7. lee sin never again

 

[ALN1031]

Thanks for this post! Extremely helpful and insightful. I jumped into a normal draft and could tell that the game was already being taken more serious than what I was used to.

No problem, two things I recommend you do to not only improve your gameplay but help you from being shut out in Ranked is(disregard if you already can do it):

1) Be able to play every role. Especially in Ranked, you will definitely be forced at one point to play every role unless you plan on going "mid or feed" and such and going mid regardless of anything. This also helps avoid arguments in Ranked, which is one of the most detrimental things that your team can have, if someone wants a role you want, you can simply let them have it if you can play another role. It's alright to focus on one role, but you won't always get it in Ranked so be sure you're not too limited.

2) Have a sizeable champion pool in every role. This is sort of expanding from the previous point, but in Ranked, especially if the champions you play are a common ban or pick, you can easily be left without a champion you are comfortable in playing. Depending on match ups, counters, and popularity, you can determine how many champions you'll need in each role. I think 2-3 in each role that you can play decently would be pretty good, if you really like playing Sion top lane or something and you don't really play top much, having only one would be acceptable, since Sion is almost never picked by anyone else.

The purpose of adding new champions to your pool isn't only to make sure you can't get banned out though, learning a champion helps you improve your own gameplay generally as a lot of champions play differently and require different skills. This also helps if you have to face the certain champion, as you will know the champion's weaknesses from your own experiences and be able to exploit it. Sorry if you already knew most of these, I'm not sure how new you are, but these are some things that really helped me. Also, aim for 100 cs at 10 minutes! This is a hard goal for everyone, so if you're close, consider it good, last hitting is a very important mechanic that you can really only perfect through practice, try to anticipate how fast the minions die when focused or attacked by the turret and such!

 

[Edwardo]

Also, aim for 100 cs at 10 minutes!

I think I've only been around 100 cs at 10 minutes in a handful of games. Generally I'm lucky if I get to around 70 at 10 minutes, and that's if me and my lane opponent aren't going at it all day.

 

[CountBlack]

I think I have a 0% Win rate against Nasus

 

[ALN1031]

I think I've only been around 100 cs at 10 minutes in a handful of games. Generally I'm lucky if I get to around 70 at 10 minutes, and that's if me and my lane opponent aren't going at it all day.

Yeah, that's why I said only to aim, it's probably a very unreasonable thing to ask of the majority of the league player base, and certainly of a new player. It's just the baseline people use for the ideal cs, but as long as you're close, it's pretty good. This also depends heavily on how the game is going, if you're being camped or pushed to turret, countered, or you're fighting a lot or roaming, these are all things that will affect your cs, but part of improving your gameplay is finding ways to still keep up on your cs while these things may happen.


EDIT: Also, remember to enjoy the game! Improving your gameplay is nice and all, but make sure not to burn yourself out or get too frustrated, it won't be too healthy for yourself or your gameplay, hehe.

 

[DeadNames]

I think I have a 0% Win rate against Nasus

Beating nasus is a hit or miss for me. Either I stomp him, or I get absolutely reckt.

Has anyone else fallen into the main role syndrome? After playing top for so many games... I find my Xerath/Lucian mechanics are lacking.

 

[BriseFlots]

No problem, two things I recommend you do to not only improve your gameplay but help you from being shut out in Ranked is(disregard if you already can do it):

1) Be able to play every role. Especially in Ranked, you will definitely be forced at one point to play every role unless you plan on going "mid or feed" and such and going mid regardless of anything. This also helps avoid arguments in Ranked, which is one of the most detrimental things that your team can have, if someone wants a role you want, you can simply let them have it if you can play another role. It's alright to focus on one role, but you won't always get it in Ranked so be sure you're not too limited.

2) Have a sizeable champion pool in every role. This is sort of expanding from the previous point, but in Ranked, especially if the champions you play are a common ban or pick, you can easily be left without a champion you are comfortable in playing. Depending on match ups, counters, and popularity, you can determine how many champions you'll need in each role. I think 2-3 in each role that you can play decently would be pretty good, if you really like playing Sion top lane or something and you don't really play top much, having only one would be acceptable, since Sion is almost never picked by anyone else.

The purpose of adding new champions to your pool isn't only to make sure you can't get banned out though, learning a champion helps you improve your own gameplay generally as a lot of champions play differently and require different skills. This also helps if you have to face the certain champion, as you will know the champion's weaknesses from your own experiences and be able to exploit it. Sorry if you already knew most of these, I'm not sure how new you are, but these are some things that really helped me. Also, aim for 100 cs at 10 minutes! This is a hard goal for everyone, so if you're close, consider it good, last hitting is a very important mechanic that you can really only perfect through practice, try to anticipate how fast the minions die when focused or attacked by the turret and such!

I'm still new to ranked but I'll also add this: add people who are positive for duo queueing. If you can be assured that at least another guy in your team isn't a troll it's that much chances of having a team that actually plays as a team.

 

[zkylon]

yea I don't think I can use tear anymore

it's just too shit lol

 

[ALN1031]

yea I don't think I can use tear anymore

it's just too shit lol

I still like to take it on Nidalee, Kass and Ryze, idk. Maybe I'm getting too rigid in my builds but they haven't failed me yet.

what are you doing with your life

Pls no dimb, he is op so i can build w/e and still do 2 million damage. Also, XPeke does it, so it must be good, hehe.


Also, for any interested University students, apparently Riot is gonna have a North American Collegiate league or something now: http://na.lolesports.com/articles/announcing-north-american-collegiate-championship

 

[dimb]

I still like to take it on Nidalee, Kass and Ryze, idk. Maybe I'm getting too rigid in my builds but they haven't failed me yet.

what are you doing with your life

 

[Fuzzery]

oh my god sky's stream right now, LOL

 

[sleepykyo]

Aren't those copyrighted?

How do people deal with Riven top? Her early burst potential is insane with that 3 q into knock up into w stun and so forth.

 

[Wolf Akela]

Play very passive especially against fort pot cheese.

Against mediocre Rivens you can coordinate jungler ganks after she blows a cooldown.

 

[Sr Kitsune]

yea I don't think I can use tear anymore

it's just too shit lol

Yeah, I played a few games without tear, and went better than before.

edit: Just went to kacey stream for a few seconds to see if she was (fake) crying again, and first thing I hear "please, stop asking me to quit streaming, that's like asking michael jordan to quit basketball" 9/10

 

[Subtle]

Play very passive especially against fort pot cheese.

Against mediocre Rivens you can coordinate jungler ganks after she blows a cooldown.

How do I stop being a mediocre river? I always end up dying because I'm so aggressive..

 

[Mothman91]

What do they need to do to Nasus to mitigate that fucking late game ass whooping? My top laner was Riven and couldn't do shit to him because he's still learning her. My jungler was a Xin and built the most fucking weird build ever(Atmas/Wits/Guinsoo's with a Golem/Sunfire). I also hate how he can chain wither...that shit is so fucking broken.

 

[Mister Negative]

"1 dollar please don't read this out loud" *pause*

oh my god im dying

she's also pronouncing it league of leegends

 

[zkylon]

I still like to take it on Nidalee, Kass and Ryze, idk. Maybe I'm getting too rigid in my builds but they haven't failed me yet.

out of those the only one I play is nidalee and I don't ever buy it on her

Yeah, I played a few games without tear, and went better than before.

yup, tried it twice on cassiopeia, and it's just shit. the other midlaner dumps on you, if not the jungler, and by the time it's full it's already gg. even in the game I did well it felt just unnecessarily risky

I gotta understand what to build cass tho. like I always forget about wota lol

edit: Just went to kacey stream for a few seconds to see if she was (fake) crying again, and first thing I hear "please, stop asking me to quit streaming, that's like asking michael jordan to quit basketball" 9/10

shut up it's not fake :<

How do I stop being a mediocre river? I always end up dying because I'm so aggressive..

press q some more

 

[DeadNames]

What do they need to do to Nasus to mitigate that fucking late game ass whooping? My top laner was Riven and couldn't do shit to him because he's still learning her. My jungler was a Xin and built the most fucking weird build ever(Atmas/Wits/Guinsoo's with a Golem/Sunfire). I also hate how he can chain wither...that shit is so fucking broken.

Yup. Fuck wither in its entirety. As a matter of fact, all point and click cc in this game can burn in hell.

 

[Wolf Akela]

What do they need to do to Nasus to mitigate that fucking late game ass whooping? My top laner was Riven and couldn't do shit to him because he's still learning her. My jungler was a Xin and built the most fucking weird build ever(Atmas/Wits/Guinsoo's with a Golem/Sunfire). I also hate how he can chain wither...that shit is so fucking broken.

You're letting him play to his hypercarry status. He deserves the late game ass whooping he can do. It's the same thing with other late late game champs (eg Vayne, Poppy, Ryze, etc). Keep forcing 5v4s if he's AFK farming. It can get to a point where a strong Nasus can't carry because his team fell behind way too far in terms of gold and map control.