-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
League of Legends |OT5| Premade Bot
- Thread starter Dobkeratops
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Imperfected
Member
No vi? gragas?
Fun Fact: The combined NA/EU win/loss of Newt's named champions plus Vi and Gragas!
Thresh: 48-37
Leona: 25-33
Lee Sin: 21-21
Elise: 30-24
Wukong: 10-15
Pantheon: 19-13
Sivir: 18-14
Vi: 24-24
Gragas: 20-30
I could see the argument for Wukong being overpowered since he at least has a respectable solo queue winrate, but Gragas is a fat loser and no one will ever love him, so leave the poor man alone to his drinking.
(I also still don't see how Lee Sin is "strong" when he's straight 50-50 in pro play and <50% in solo queue. Is it Dominion? Is he the OP Dominion champ?)
Orbis Tabula
Member
I finally got my first Pentakill yesterday. It's long, long, long overdue, because I've been playing forever. I guess that means it's finally time to retire Morgana and start learning how to play...any other champion.
Imperfected
Member
Nah, LeBlanc's much stronger than Gragas at the moment. Lulu, too, I'd argue. Probably Ziggs. Actually, now that Gragas has gotten his own nerfs to match theirs, Zed and Ahri are probably back to being stronger than him, too.
But he is the fattest mid laner, so at least he'll always have that. (Shymalan Twist: Mid Lane Urgot!)
But he is the fattest mid laner, so at least he'll always have that. (Shymalan Twist: Mid Lane Urgot!)
They're killing Elise little by little. I can understand the monster nerf, they did the same thing to khazix but not quite this much. Pretty hard hit there.
Mister Negative
Member
I started reading the change to jinx's passive and i was like WHAT but then I read the rest of it.
I wonder if building Flare on trundle will be worth it. I've really been enjoying the golem bork tank build path.
I wonder if building Flare on trundle will be worth it. I've really been enjoying the golem bork tank build path.
They're killing Elise little by little. I can understand the monster nerf, they did the same thing to khazix but not quite this much. Pretty hard hit there.
Doesn't look like they hit her too hard, other than jungling, otherwise she got some arguable buffs. Longer stun, shorter rappel cd...
edit; Dont' like the new font!
wow things got heated overnight here
but yea can't argue that thresh isn't op, he's kinda like yasuo, he's got a regular spell in his kit in his lantern that breaks the game in a way that should be an ult, and on the side everything about the rest of his kit is super good.
my problem with asking for nerfs for him (aside from the fact i realy like playing him) is that most supports right now are in the shit. like i play sona because i like her but everytime i ult I think to myself this could've been an annie ult with like 50% more damage and no travel time. like you can still play them but they just can't compete.
and I mean why could they, they all got nerfed for no reason and they've disappeared off the map ever since. sona would come back 100% if they gave her her numbers back.
but yea, revert them fucking nerfs rito already. like i get why you did them, but it just messed everything up. like then you can nerf thresh if you want
also i really hate yasuo by now.
but yea can't argue that thresh isn't op, he's kinda like yasuo, he's got a regular spell in his kit in his lantern that breaks the game in a way that should be an ult, and on the side everything about the rest of his kit is super good.
my problem with asking for nerfs for him (aside from the fact i realy like playing him) is that most supports right now are in the shit. like i play sona because i like her but everytime i ult I think to myself this could've been an annie ult with like 50% more damage and no travel time. like you can still play them but they just can't compete.
and I mean why could they, they all got nerfed for no reason and they've disappeared off the map ever since. sona would come back 100% if they gave her her numbers back.
but yea, revert them fucking nerfs rito already. like i get why you did them, but it just messed everything up. like then you can nerf thresh if you want
also i really hate yasuo by now.
Doesn't look like they hit her too hard, other than jungling, otherwise she got some arguable buffs. Longer stun, shorter rappel cd...
edit; Dont' like the new font!
The base damage nerf on Q hurts. The monster damage will really impact her midgame clear and objective control. Definitely a hit on jungle Elise. The E buff will only help lategame where I suppose she is the weakest right now.
My God that font is UGLY.
My God that font is UGLY.
Lol wow. I just saw that. Seriously bad. Hope they don't go with that.
Nah, LeBlanc's much stronger than Gragas at the moment. Lulu, too, I'd argue. Probably Ziggs. Actually, now that Gragas has gotten his own nerfs to match theirs, Zed and Ahri are probably back to being stronger than him, too.
But he is the fattest mid laner, so at least he'll always have that. (Shymalan Twist: Mid Lane Urgot!)
lol, no,
I'm done with Gragas two shotting my team.
these are pretty light. elly has been skittering away from nerfs forever, much more any serious ones. this is the first major nerf to her in forever tbh. her mana costs are still negligible and she has the strongest early game skirmish in the game up like level ten at least. now her early game cc won't be so strong though, but her damage is largely unchanged.They're killing Elise little by little. I can understand the monster nerf, they did the same thing to khazix but not quite this much. Pretty hard hit there.
yeah, no.just realized they destroyed elise
what the fuck
Stone Ocean
Member
And more than deserved. As much as I love Elise, not being able to outsmite her unless you're a lucky Lee was really fucking dumb.They're killing Elise little by little. I can understand the monster nerf, they did the same thing to khazix but not quite this much. Pretty hard hit there.
Not sure how I feel on the E changes. Should she be maxing it second now or something? A easy to land, long range 2 second stun is nothing to scoff at.
Imperfected
Member
lol, no,
I'm done with Gragas two shotting my team.
Tell them to stop hugging when there are heavy-set, shirtless dudes who are visibly liquored up watching them. That's like grade school level self-defense training, y'know.
Stone Ocean
Member
Yeah. She lost some dragon control and early play making potential, but if she catches you you're still dead, and lategame her ability to pick off strays got buffed quite a bit.these are pretty light. elly has been skittering away from nerfs forever, much more any serious ones. this is the first major nerf to her in forever tbh. her mana costs are still negligible and she has the strongest early game skirmish in the game up like level ten at least. now her early game cc won't be so strong though, but her damage is largely unchanged.
With stuff like mid Lulu and Leona popular right now, she might be stronger now once you weigh everything down lol
yeah, no.
why not
i just posted about elise.why not
(I also still don't see how Lee Sin is "strong" when he's straight 50-50 in pro play and <50% in solo queue. Is it Dominion? Is he the OP Dominion champ?)
You don't see how a champion who can be picked in any situation and do well is too strong? It crowds out numerous other champions and forces balance to center around that champion. As mic as it seems like a good idea to have "yard stick" champions, it's really quite terrible.
The Elise nerfs are just a place holder until her rework is done. I suspect with the amount of time that's gone by with her being OP we'll see something in the next few months. Not sure undue needed any buffs.
Imperfected
Member
why not
The same reason Kha'Zix hasn't ceased to exist. They're removing power from places where it's frankly gratuitous, without really hurting the core functionality of the champion. This has very little impact on her practical clear speed (on most camps you end up overkilling inefficiently with the bite anyway, and the neurotoxin health shred is only really important on your first buffs), doesn't stop her from still being good at objective securing/contesting compared to the majority of junglers, and only marginally reduces the effectiveness of her early ganks, which rarely need the full duration of Cocoon to work anyway because you explode people as soon as the wad hits them.
They're nerfs, sure, but they're all nerfs in places where she had power to spare.
You don't see how a champion who can be picked in any situation and do well is too strong?
No, I really don't. Should all champions be bad if you aren't picking them in exactly the right situation? I didn't realize that was somewhere in the design document, here.
He does well. That's it. He's Mr. Average. He's a milquetoast motherfucker who consistently fails to impress, so the least he can do is consistently avoid failing. If he were a Kha'Zix who can hit take-off velocity and completely wreck a game, I could understand. If he were a Wukong who could roflestomp through an entire team with ten minutes of power-farming and one Decoy -> Cyclone combo, I could understand. If he were still the king of jungle dueling - if they hadn't released a half-dozen champions who can smack his shit if he shows his face in their jungle since the days when he was OP - I could understand. I don't understand how a "safe" jungler with decent early ganks who turns into a pseudo-support as the game goes on is anything to get up in arms about, other than the pure nostalgia value of getting face-stomped by him back in 2012.
He does a lot of things well, but the only thing he does better than anyone else is running away. Woop-dee-doo. Nevermind that he has trouble breaking even on every metric we have for win rates, he totally robbed me of an earned kill by being a slippery bastard so he must be nerfed!
Stone Ocean
Member
Not really. You can't compare Lee to say, what's happening in bot lane right now. When a champ is too strong he/she turns the game into Rock Paper Scissors. You picked Leona? Now I have to pick Thresh or my adc is dead. Mundo? Well I guess I have no choice but to pick Shyvana or some shit.You don't see how a champion who can be picked in any situation and do well is too strong? It crowds out numerous other champions and forces balance to center around that champion. As mic as it seems like a good idea to have "yard stick" champions, it's really quite terrible.
Lee doesn't force the game to bend to his will. You pick him, he's good at everything, but the other team doesn't need an immediate answer to him otherwise risk getting fucked. You don't need to rush X item, you don't lock out Z, W and Y from being picked at all - well aside from Akali but whatever. I
No, I really don't. Should all champions be bad if you aren't picking them in exactly the right situation? I didn't realize that was somewhere in the design document, here.
He does well. That's it. He's Mr. Average. He's a milquetoast motherfucker who consistently fails to impress, so the least he can do is consistently avoid failing. If he were a Kha'Zix who can hit take-off velocity and completely wreck a game, I could understand. If he were a Wukong who could roflestomp through an entire team with ten minutes of power-farming and one Decoy -> Cyclone combo, I could understand. If he were still the king of jungle dueling - if they hadn't released a half-dozen champions who can smack his shit if he shows his face in their jungle since the days when he was OP - I could understand. I don't understand how a "safe" jungler with decent early ganks who turns into a pseudo-support as the game goes on is anything to get up in arms about, other than the pure nostalgia value of getting face-stomped by him back in 2012.
He does a lot of things well, but the only thing he does better than anyone else is running away. Woop-dee-doo. Nevermind that he has trouble breaking even on every metric we have for win rates, he totally robbed me of an earned kill by being a slippery bastard so he must be nerfed!
I happen to completely agree with you about Lee Sin. The rare dedicated Lee Sin player can be godly but overall as a champ, he's pretty mediocre. He excels at mobility.
I would actually consider a champ well designed if they have a skill cap such that you can start to truly excel with them when played at a high level.
The same reason Kha'Zix hasn't ceased to exist. They're removing power from places where it's frankly gratuitous, without really hurting the core functionality of the champion. This has very little impact on her practical clear speed (on most camps you end up overkilling inefficiently with the bite anyway, and the neurotoxin health shred is only really important on your first buffs), doesn't stop her from still being good at objective securing/contesting compared to the majority of junglers, and only marginally reduces the effectiveness of her early ganks, which rarely need the full duration of Cocoon to work anyway because you explode people as soon as the wad hits them.
They're nerfs, sure, but they're all nerfs in places where she had power to spare.
No, I really don't. Should all champions be bad if you aren't picking them in exactly the right situation? I didn't realize that was somewhere in the design document, here.
He does well. That's it. He's Mr. Average. He's a milquetoast motherfucker who consistently fails to impress, so the least he can do is consistently avoid failing. If he were a Kha'Zix who can hit take-off velocity and completely wreck a game, I could understand. If he were a Wukong who could roflestomp through an entire team with ten minutes of power-farming and one Decoy -> Cyclone combo, I could understand. If he were still the king of jungle dueling - if they hadn't released a half-dozen champions who can smack his shit if he shows his face in their jungle since the days when he was OP - I could understand. I don't understand how a "safe" jungler with decent early ganks who turns into a pseudo-support as the game goes on is anything to get up in arms about, other than the pure nostalgia value of getting face-stomped by him back in 2012.
He does a lot of things well, but the only thing he does better than anyone else is running away. Woop-dee-doo. Nevermind that he has trouble breaking even on every metric we have for win rates, he totally robbed me of an earned kill by being a slippery bastard so he must be nerfed!
Takes some considerable dissonance to - in the same post no less - say that Elise had gratuitous power to spare and claim Lee Sin is fine.
"Should all champions be bad if you aren't picking them in exactly the right situation? I didn't realize that was somewhere in the design document, here."
You're phrasing the issue incorrectly: should any champion be able to do very well (and not as you insist several times, "average") in every situation? Because that's Lee Sin, and by extension Elise and Vi because they're being balanced around him.
I would actually consider a champ well designed if they have a skill cap such that you can start to truly excel with them when played at a high level.
Except riot has pretty much held the line that difficulty shouldn't affect a champion's power.
Stone Ocean
Member
Why not? What's wrong with having a jack of all trades as long as he's not as good as the specialist junglers - which he isn't?Takes some considerable dissonance to - in the same post no less - say that Elise had gratuitous power to spare and claim Lee Sin is fine.
"Should all champions be bad if you aren't picking them in exactly the right situation? I didn't realize that was somewhere in the design document, here."
You're phrasing the issue incorrectly: should any champion be able to do very well (and not as you insist several times, "average") in every situation? Because that's Lee Sin, and by extension Elise and Vi because they're being balanced around him.
He doesn't scale as hard as lategame junglers, his early game has long stopped being as good as other early junglers, he doesn't initiate or pick off targets as well, he doesn't farm as fast, he's not as good in teamfights, his dragon/baron control is not as good as other control junglers. Why would being able to do everything be an issue?
Imperfected
Member
You're phrasing the issue incorrectly: should any champion be able to do very well (and not as you insist several times, "average") in every situation? Because that's Lee Sin, and by extension Elise and Vi because they're being balanced around him.
You're right, because someone else in this discussion already phrased the issue correctly: what is Lee Sin's actual impact on the game?
If I see the enemy team has a Pantheon, the entire map is under his influence when he hits six. I actually have to factor him into my defense buys; if he gets a kill or two under his belt, I have to now prioritize armor because of his threat potential. I either have to play passively whenever his ultimate is up, or completely change my warding to try and spot him moving into position for a mandrop rather than doing normal lane-approach warding. If his ultimate is up, I can't just go drop a nice jungle ward and solo clear a pushed lane; I have to constantly consider that he could just drop in behind me.
If I see the enemy has a Lee Sin, then... what, exactly? I pull dragon a little further out of the pit than I otherwise might? I'm maybe a little more mindful of not doing a Baron under circumstances where I shouldn't have been doing it to begin with? I'm not itemizing around a freaking Lee Sin, that's for sure. His ganks aren't horribly impacting my laning, not even to the extent of an Elise or Vi. His presence isn't completely changing my team-fight priorities. I'm not having to buy extra pink wards or place wards in jungle camps to try and ferret out his position because he's stealthed.
I literally play the game in a completely normal fashion. Yes, he can tower dive; so can most other junglers, I always have to be mindful of dives. Yes, he can lane gank; so can most other junglers, I always have to be mindful of lane ganks. Yes, he can wall-jump to avoid warding locations - okay, I won't belabor the point here, you see where it's going. What exactly is he doing that changes the way I play the game at all?
Hell, even Amumu and Sejuani make me second-guess whether or not I should run Cleanse or build a QSS. Lee doesn't even do that! You don't pick around him, you don't build around him, you don't play around him... where is the impact, exactly? If he's not forcing me to change how I play the game on any level other than a very minor adjustment for carries in objective-control positioning, what precisely is his intangible impact on the game?
Imperfected
Member
you guys are ignoring that lee sin is the best and safest invader in the game.
He's the safest, but not the best. There are plenty of champions who can just bitch-slap him if he shows up in their jungle, these days. He might still escape, but it's not like escaping is a great accomplishment if you didn't actually exert meaningful pressure while you were in there.
Like, yeah, he was god-like back when everyone was playing Amumu and Maokai in the jungle. The current crop of junglers can all at least hold their own against him, if not outright lay him out. "I really want to go 1v1 a Pantheon!" said no Lee Sin ever.
Edit: Sorry if my tone is overly abrasive, here. For the record, I'm not opposed to the idea of Lee Sin being overpowered and getting nerfed. I've actually played as and against enough Lee Sin for five or six lifetimes, and would honestly rather never see him in-game again. That said, I'd also rather be honest about why I don't want to see him, and it's not because he's just so good; as far as I can tell his "power" is this persistent misconception masquerading as a tautology. "Lee Sin is OP because Lee Sin has always been OP," as far as I can tell, is the only basis anyone actually has anymore, since there are no statistics that actually back it up and his impact on the game has shrunk to being a virtual non-entity.
Mister Negative
Member
shoutout to kids that queue up knowing that momma's gonna call them for dinner soon
nothing against any youngins on GAF but like c'mon
edit: that font change will almost definitely go through, it looks like the same font they're using for summoner names in game currently.
nothing against any youngins on GAF but like c'mon
edit: that font change will almost definitely go through, it looks like the same font they're using for summoner names in game currently.
the only good invade is a safe invade.
unless it's the void invade
Crab Milk Mickey
Member
Uh, Warrings Kingdom Xin Zhao does have new particle effects with his Three Talon Strike and his ultimate.At any rate, finished my little set of jungle Xin Zhao games last night and he's pretty fun. He's simple, but the way Three Talon Strikes works with his other abilities and the knockback on his ult gives him something interesting despite being an otherwise typical bruiser. I really liked how I had lots of build variety. Biggest problem to me oddly is that he's such a bland champion visually, a typically boring Demacian. Warring Kingdoms skin at 1350IP with zero new animations or effects is a joke.
A passive Janna against certain match-ups (like Leona and Thresh) isn't a very good one. She's still relatively strong, but out of the standard supports she has the highest learning curve to perform well with.I wouldn't play her right now, she's not in a good spot (unless you really counter their entire team comp). I used to play her R > E > Q > W (early: E, Q, W if jungler would gank, E Q E W otherwise). It's more a farm/safe poke lane, not aggressive at all. Can be countered pretty easily by the holy bot lane trinity. If I remember correctly, I ran AP/Mana Regen runes. Haven't tried her in S4.
Jungle Elise players ruining it for the rest of us. Fortunately the base damage nerfs - those that aren't tied to the minions cap - aren't too bad though.And more than deserved. As much as I love Elise, not being able to outsmite her unless you're a lucky Lee was really fucking dumb.
Not sure how I feel on the E changes. Should she be maxing it second now or something? A easy to land, long range 2 second stun is nothing to scoff at.
I don't believe it'll be worth maxing E second once those changes get patched in however, be it as a laner or a jungler. Missing out on a big chunk of your mid game damage potential and lane sustain + pushing power / reducing your camp clear speed for what, a marginal increase in total stun time and a few seconds off max rank rappel? Lousy trade-off.
I think it could be, or at least alternate between Wriggle's and Ancient Golem. The latter only if he needs to be nothing but tanky. I need to get around to playing on PBE again for some better impressions.I wonder if building Flare on trundle will be worth it. I've really been enjoying the golem bork tank build path.
PhillipCostigan
Member
Context on Elise nerfs, also confirmation that Lee Sin is getting reworked.
I personally think the Elise nerfs are too much but we'll see.
I personally think the Elise nerfs are too much but we'll see.
Uh, Warrings Kingdom Xin Zhao does have new particle effects with his Three Talon Strike and his ultimate.
Didn't even notice, doesn't make the most compelling argument that its worth 1350IP.
Also, with us speaking about the devil...
Riot Jag said:On another note, I think some of the Lee Sin comparisons here are fair. I'm compelled to point out that we have a Lee Sin rework in progress to address some of the concerns with his early game dominance, which shifts power into his mid and late game to keep him more relevant as games go on in length.
these are pretty light. elly has been skittering away from nerfs forever, much more any serious ones. this is the first major nerf to her in forever tbh. her mana costs are still negligible and she has the strongest early game skirmish in the game up like level ten at least. now her early game cc won't be so strong though, but her damage is largely unchanged.
WOW
I CANT BELIEVE YOU PEOPLE LET HIM GET AWAY WITH THIS
WOW
I CANT BELIEVE YOU PEOPLE LET HIM GET AWAY WITH THIS
We're all caught in dimb's web, save based Boken.
Where's mah Sejuani buffs?!
PhillipCostigan
Member
WOW
I CANT BELIEVE YOU PEOPLE LET HIM GET AWAY WITH THIS
I saw it but I I pretended I didn't to spare myself.
Stone Ocean
Member
Fixing the bug on her W should have helped quite a bit.We're all caught in dimb's web, save based Boken.
Where's mah Sejuani buffs?!
Context on Elise nerfs, also confirmation that Lee Sin is getting reworked.
I personally think the Elise nerfs are too much but we'll see.
omg lee sin rework at last
Imperfected
Member
We're all caught in dimb's web, save based Boken.
Where's mah Sejuani buffs?!
They always forget Sejuani exists until around Regionals when they see some hot cosplayer riding her boyfriend in a boar costume and say, "Oh yeah, Sejuani. We oughta handle that sometime."
Crab Milk Mickey
Member
Never said it was good; I don't like Jarvan's either. Also doesn't help that IIRC it was a 975 RP skin originally (no, not a discount) before Riot revised their price range on skins altogether.Didn't even notice, doesn't make the most compelling argument that its worth 1350IP.
Also, with us speaking about the devil...
- Status
- Not open for further replies.