It can be nice on Olaf sometimes. The MS is boss for his ult (especially paired with MS quints) and CDR is pretty huge on him. Vampirism is nice too, and scales with his W and a necessary Spirit Visage. The defensive tree is decent but lost some incentive since he doesn't scale off health anymore and you're going to be building tanky to start anyway. He doesn't need AS in the offensive tree, so you can grab the CDR and start straight up at 10 while on your way to ArPen, which is big early when your E still has a high CD.
Holy god damn. Come back to ranked, Orianna doesn't even connect after begging for mid and counterpicking herself (into Ahri...). Vayne asks for Leona support and rages when I die trying to save her on a stupid engage. Jax gets counterpicked and his opponent Garen gets a rampage early. Our Amumu just trolls for the last five minutes pre-surrender.
Which parts do you not approve of? I know it's an unconvential route, but it's still superior to Tear rush + fanatical E > W maxing (with no regard for the strengths of your lane opponent).
Unless you meant the Trundle bit, which I purposefully threw in there after the Quinn remarks from a few pages ago!
Oh my goddddddd. Shoot me. They just did not want to win. I hit enough of my bubbles and tidal waves for Kass and Cait and Zed to roll them to bits...but they just wouldn't. Farming other lanes, hanging out over walls with full health...ugh.
Oh wow, ton's good info coming from the S4 support thread. Philosopher's pebble 375g gives gold on allied minion kills. Martyr's call has an active that provides an ally with a shield equal to 10% of your max health with 20% current health cost. Shurelyia's keeps it's gold component. Goodies goodies goodies!
i dunno, you can take miniward if you want. idc about it jungling. usually just grab biscuit+buff duration+spell vamp/life steal. this would be a 14/3/13 build.
Oh wow, ton's good info coming from the S4 support thread. Philosopher's pebble 375g gives gold on allied minion kills. Martyr's call has an active that provides an ally with a shield equal to 10% of your max health with 20% current health cost. Shurelyia's keeps it's gold component. Goodies goodies goodies!
Nice. The Pebble giving gold on allied minion kills is a no brainer. Should have been introduced ages ago.
The dynamics of the game with 5 fully fed members of the team will be crazy. There will be carry supports all over the place. Going to be pretty damn cool.
I hope they introduce new support champs with that in mind.
So with the new ward/gold changes for supports, does anyone else see Jayce coming as a possible low-mid level elo support champ?
A few points to back up my ridiculous claim...
His auto-W-auto will melt a vision ward with ease. While he has no hard CC, he has two good disengages -- his gate for speed for him and his ADC, and his hammer knockback. His hammer knockback doubles as a way to secure a fleeing kill for his ADC. Everyone knows that even without items, Jayce's E-Q combo absolutely CHUNKS squishy ADCs and support characters, but with the gold changes he's going to have gold to buy items. The poke would be absolutely ridiculous.
I'm sure there are downsides I don't see, but remember, I'm talking about low to mid level elo here.
Could be. Tanky ones like Leona and Alistar may end up with real tank builds for once. Randuins, etc. Mages will still be squishy though actually deal damage. Going to be scary.
Supports are going to need a lot of tuning. Someone like Sona isn't going to scale well at all compared to an Annie.
edit: It actually sounds like Support is going to be even more fun to play. Might be cool. Jungle will likely be the least desired role. Hooray
i dunno, you can take miniward if you want. idc about it jungling. usually just grab biscuit+buff duration+spell vamp/life steal. this would be a 14/3/13 build.
I've just been wondering, mostly. For whatever reason matchmaking has seen fit to set me up on red side in about 9 of my last 10 jungling games and again, for some reason, I've been up against people who tried to take my red buff after I did blue in lots of those games.
Generally works out fine, but I was asleep at the wheel last night while playing Nautilus and a Hecarim of all things stole my smite-stole my red because I didn't think a steal threat was high so I didn't bother pulling the eldar lizard into the bush. Hell, the guy ended up having to flash because I beat up him up after he stole red. Ended losing because my lanes fed like mad, but I held my own against Hecarim in the end despite the early setback. It just got me thinking about what could have happened had that been a good Lee Sin or Udyr, etc.
I could go back to doing red->blue on Naut regardless of side even though that might not be optimal for potential level 3 ganks, but I've always felt way safer doing this. Ever since the 3.10 changes though blue->red->look for top/mid gank is more or less engrained in my jungle DNA. Then again pulling the lizard into the bush may be enough. Had I seen the Hecarim while in bush I could have taken him on.
In short, been having an annoying patch of jungle games as Naut/Zac/Sej and wondering if having the early ward could help. Pretty sure I'm questioning things unnecessarily, I'll prob just go back to red->blue like I used to do.
I've just been wondering, mostly. For whatever reason matchmaking has seen fit to set me up on red side in about 9 of my last 10 jungling games and again, for some reason, I've been up against people who tried to take my red buff after I did blue in lots of those games.
Generally works out fine, but I was asleep at the wheel last night while playing Nautilus and a Hecarim of all things stole my smite-stole my red because I didn't think a steal threat was high so I didn't bother pulling the eldar lizard into the bush. Hell, the guy ended up having to flash because I beat up him up after he stole red. Ended losing because my lanes fed like mad, but I held my own against Hecarim in the end despite the early setback. It just got me thinking about what could have happened had that been a good Lee Sin or Udyr, etc.
I could go back to doing red->blue on Naut regardless of side even though that might not be optimal for potential level 3 ganks, but I've always felt way safer doing this. Ever since the 3.10 changes though blue->red->look for top/mid gank is more or less engrained in my jungle DNA. Then again pulling the lizard into the bush may be enough. Had I seen the Hecarim while in bush I could have taken him on.
In short, been having an annoying patch of jungle games as Naut/Zac/Sej and wondering if having the early ward could help. Pretty sure I'm questioning things unnecessarily, I'll prob just go back to red->blue like I used to do.
If you fear a smite steal, ask the support to explorer ward your red brush at 1:30. I have never had one refuse that request. A few times I've even bought my own ward in lieu of a couple red pots. Elise for example doesn't need that many red pots. If I'm against a Lee or Shaco, the longer duration ward could help.
That said, always pull the red into the brush. Assume they are there. I've had all sorts of weird invades. I don't know what it is that makes silver/gold junglers think Kha'zix is such a push over but I often get solo invaded as Kha'zix. He's a pretty good duelist though so as long as you aren't giving it away for free (check that brush!) you'll be fine.
That said, always pull the red into the brush. Assume they are there. I've had all sorts of weird invades. I don't know what it is that makes silver/gold junglers think Kha'zix is such a push over but I often get solo invaded as Kha'zix. He's a pretty good duelist though so as long as you aren't giving it away for free (check that brush!) you'll be fine.
It's not like he gets bonus damage against isolated targets that are alone...oh. I've sunk so low in my normal matches I have no faith in my supports doing much of anything, honestly.
So it seems that supports can only have one gold generating item now because Madlife and H4ck3Rv2 gamed the system to get ridiculous amounts of gold. Seems to like the solution is that when you buy your first gold item, you disable the gold generating effects for other items not in the same tree. Now that starter gold items are within the "first buy" range it would suck to lock yourself out of a host of items within the first few minutes of the game.
Support changes sound good but they'll have to be very careful that other champs and roles can't abuse the same things. Why use Sona when you could go Annie support and become an AP CC monster by mid game?
It could end up removing traditional support champs from the game.
Support changes sound good but they'll have to be very careful that other champs and roles can't abuse the same things. Why use Sona when you could go Annie support and become an AP CC monster by mid game?
It could end up removing traditional support champs from the game.
Because traditional supports are getting reworked so they get scaling utility instead. Janna for example will have her shield and the AD it gives from AP. I could see other supports getting stuff like increased CC duration, extra tankiness, better auras etc
Which parts do you not approve of? I know it's an unconvential route, but it's still superior to Tear rush + fanatical E > W maxing (with no regard for the strengths of your lane opponent).
Unless you meant the Trundle bit, which I purposefully threw in there after the Quinn remarks from a few pages ago!
Trundle is sort of at the same spot Shyv is at right now. The jungle powercreeped around them and he can't do much about it, but he can top like a boss and abuse the fuck out of the new Triforce.
I just play him jungle when people go for triple AD comps
Support changes sound good but they'll have to be very careful that other champs and roles can't abuse the same things. Why use Sona when you could go Annie support and become an AP CC monster by mid game?
It could end up removing traditional support champs from the game.
Yeah, I agree. We'll have to see how everything turns out when they release.
Regarding the Reddit discussion, it seems for now any support would rush Philo (because of the passive aka get gold from nearby minion kills). The return of the Fearie Charm as a starting buy?
I'm excited about these changes. Glad Riot keeps thing interesting every season, even if they break things.
Because traditional supports are getting reworked so they get scaling utility instead. Janna for example will have her shield and the AD it gives from AP. I could see other supports getting stuff like increased CC duration, extra tankiness, better auras etc
Trundle is sort of at the same spot Shyv is at right now. The jungle powercreeped around them and he can't do much about it, but he can top like a boss and abuse the fuck out of the new Triforce.
I just play him jungle when people go for triple AD comps
It's more accurate to say the meta pushed them out and now they're niche picks. That's not the same as power creep. If jungling went back to requiring ridiculous sustain (S1) or counterjungling was focused on clearing camps (mid-S2), they'd be right back in the mix.
Nope. It seems that now gold generating items now build out of *drumroll* gold generating items. So philosopher's stone builds of the cheap philosopher's pebble for instance (~350g). It's presumably the same for spellthief blade and executioner's emblem.
On a side note, I hope they get rid of brawler's gloves. Crit is generally a bad stat by itself. I'd rather crit change is just something that pops up on higher tier items out of nowhere.
Also, some Maokai love would be nice. %mp gain on hsi passive in addition to his %health gain would be damn near perfect. I'm going to stop now before I end up writing an S4 wish list.
1) Gangplank got overnerfed due to solo queue perception. People thought he was utterly OP after his rework, then received consecutive nerfs into redundancy despite him already having an ample amount of 'counter-picks' in top lane.
2) Warwick isn't bad per sé, but he's outdated in design and Riot to this day has this silly notion of him being able to "infinitely sustain" in lane, even after his overnerfed state with a ridiculous Q mana cost.
3 & 4) Jungle Trundle beats the snot out of nearly every bruiser in the same role from early to mid game when he plays his cards right, and he's actually -built- for late game 'utilitanking' with spammable area control.
Midplank used to be one of my favorite champions in Season 2 and I loathe what they did to him.
Back when Susan / Volibear / Vi / Xin Zhao / et cetera were the norm for common jungle picks, he was already able to threaten them head-on and convincingly come out on top if they felt inclined to brawl. All of those are noticeably nerfed by now while Trundle got ignored by the masses, and those that have returned (such as Jarvan IV and Vi) after temporarily being left alone now largely serve as a tanky initiating no-damage (relative to laners) meatshield after they attempt to snowball lane momentum during the early stages. This is in part thanks to their flexible ganking possibilities; one area where Trundle is admittedly lacking in, since he can't traverse over walls evidently. On the flipside, his counter-gank ability on said all-in gankers is brutal and he will win near-guaranteed should he choose to invade them whenever that's a valid strategic choice. Their only option for the latter is to run away and hope to farm a different camp, since only the likes of Phoenix Udyr and Shyvanna clear fast enough to not have to deal with Trundle's hijinx.
A mediocre level 1 presence (combined with some reliance on the first blue buff) and hard mobility champs (like Kassadin) being tricky to gank without additional CC are his other main weaknesses, but his overall utility more than makes up for those early game shortcomings should the opposing team take advantage of these. He'll reduce the damage of any bruiser that jumps in, he'll significantly soften up any tanky initiator whilst able to keep the rest of the enemy team at bay with a well-placed Pillar, can push down towers relatively fast with his W + Q's and he controls objectives exceedingly well. And that's excluding the short cooldown on his Pillar (for roaming and pick-offs) as well as his Ultimate, the sustain of which is enhanced by Spirit Visage to an absurd degree.
Although he far from requires a very specific composition in order to pressure the enemy, I'd somewhat agree if you had said he serves a defined niche (albeit with ridiculous numbers) to reach his fullest potential. But jungle Trundle being outright terrible? Not a chance.
I will add to that however that a lot of players build him inadequately. Spirit Stone items and by extension Ancient Golem (while in itself solid) are distinctively average on him, and his early game is much more potent if you were to forego a Machete outside of matches where you're more inclined to farm if the probability of succesful ganks is low for either side regardless. Jungle Trundle gets more mileage out of the fabled Doran's Blade Tiger Udyr set-up (including masteries & runes) in most situations, and you're generally better off getting a Madred's which would allow you to prioritize other key (offensive or defensive) items faster. Just don't put him on the same team with someone like Vladimir top.
Trundle is sort of at the same spot Shyv is at right now. The jungle powercreeped around them and he can't do much about it, but he can top like a boss and abuse the fuck out of the new Triforce.
I just play him jungle when people go for triple AD comps
Eh, I wouldn't say he got powercreeped, at least post-rework. He wasn't very suited for certain brief periods of Season 3, but he's very strong with how the game has been for the past few months (plus he was secret OP during the poke comp 'era'). Which... doesn't really mean much anymore with pre-season 4 approaching, but I digress.
I'd like to chime in on this whole utility thing. I put some points into it on my udyr build so that I can start dorans with a biscuit. He benifits from quite a few of the early talents and bullies hard with the dorans start. I run 14/3/13 btw.
I also sometimes experiment with lee sin and hecarim for invades with explorers.
Back when Susan / Volibear / Vi / Xin Zhao / et cetera were the norm for common jungle picks, he was already able to threaten them head-on and convincingly come out on top if they felt inclined to brawl. All of those are noticeably nerfed by now while Trundle got ignored by the masses, and those that have returned (such as Jarvan IV and Vi) after temporarily being left alone now largely serve as a tanky initiating no-damage (relative to laners) meatshield after they attempt to snowball lane momentum during the early stages. This is in part thanks to their flexible ganking possibilities; one area where Trundle is admittedly lacking in, since he can't traverse over walls evidently. On the flipside, his counter-gank ability on said all-in gankers is brutal and he will win near-guaranteed should he choose to invade them whenever that's a valid strategic choice. Their only option for the latter is to run away and hope to farm a different camp, since only the likes of Phoenix Udyr and Shyvanna clear fast enough to not have to deal with Trundle's hijinx.
A mediocre level 1 presence (combined with some reliance on the first blue buff) and hard mobility champs (like Kassadin) being tricky to gank without additional CC are his other main weaknesses, but his overall utility more than makes up for those early game shortcomings should the opposing team take advantage of these. He'll reduce the damage of any bruiser that jumps in, he'll significantly soften up any tanky initiator whilst able to keep the rest of the enemy team at bay with a well-placed Pillar, can push down towers relatively fast with his W + Q's and he controls objectives exceedingly well. And that's excluding the short cooldown on his Pillar (for roaming and pick-offs) as well as his Ultimate, the sustain of which is enhanced by Spirit Visage to an absurd degree.
Although he far from requires a very specific composition in order to pressure the enemy, I'd somewhat agree if you had said he serves a defined niche (albeit with ridiculous numbers) to reach his fullest potential. But jungle Trundle being outright terrible? Not a chance.
I will add to that however that a lot of players build him inadequately. Spirit Stone items and by extension Ancient Golem (while in itself solid) are distinctively average on him, and his early game is much more potent if you were to forego a Machete outside of matches where you're more inclined to farm if the probability of succesful ganks is low for either side regardless. Jungle Trundle gets more mileage out of the fabled Doran's Blade Tiger Udyr set-up (including masteries & runes) in most situations, and you're generally better off getting a Madred's which would allow you to prioritize other key (offensive or defensive) items faster. Just don't put him on the same team with someone like Vladimir top.
Eh, I wouldn't say he got powercreeped, at least post-rework. He wasn't very suited for certain brief periods of Season 3, but he's very strong with how the game has been for the past few months (plus he was secret OP during the poke comp 'era'). Which... doesn't really mean much anymore with pre-season 4 approaching, but I digress.
GP is still good. You just have to go KR on hit build. I already understand the merits of Trundle, and he will be my fourth most played champ in ranked for S3. He was stronger earlier on, but the quality of him as a pick has gone further and further down. There are lots of reasons I don't think he's very strong right now. One of the biggest issues is that his ultimate doesn't signal the rest of his team well, so people don't realize the situations in which tanks can be focused down in fights. When you stack that on top of Trundle's inability to really make many plays on his own you run in to a difficult situation. Junglers don't really earn enough gold to open up his dive potential enough, and lacking hard engage or catch potential is rough. With popular champions right now heavy on wave clear his tower pushing rarely comes out, and with high mobility champs also on the rise there is little his pillar can do in many situations.
If you are running a Doran's Blade start Trundle isn't very reliant on blue buff as long as your masteries are set up right. Right now Trundle really just sucks for the meta. His damage output is too low and there aren't really good items for him to build that alleviate that. His tankiness doesn't really offset the fact that he lacks hard CC.
