Stone Ocean
Member
They probably added that back so Rengar could have the MS buff while stealthed.
Still kinda weird though.
Still kinda weird though.
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League of Legends |OT6| My AP Mid Can't Be This Cute
- Thread starter Dobkeratops
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PhillipCostigan
Member
even when they made the MS change on PBE they didn't add that in.
It's really dumb.
which runes for jungle fizz (yeah) - armor or health, hybrid penetration and ap scaling? Spell vamp?
that's Skarner's job
that's Skarner's job
Crab Milk Mickey
Member
Hoping they remove those stupid goggles from the default Twitch VU skin. Looks good otherwise. Anyone know which one the eyepatch skin (next to Vandal Twitch) is supposed to be though? I don't recognize it.
If only there was proper itemization to combat heavy sustain instead of nerfing those kits into the ground. Nah, that's crazy talk.
The solution is nerfing champs like Leona to the ground (who can ignore all harass) which is basically what riot is doing right now. Also, I don't understand how Sona being strong is a good thing. Remember when she could take out half of someone's health level 1 with one Q?
Crab Milk Mickey
Member
I should've been more clear since I didn't mean Sona, and her Q isn't sustain anyways. I moreso meant the likes of Warwick, Yorick, Nunu and so forth being unfairly neutered. Leona ignoring all harrass is also overstated, not that I disagree with her minor nerfs.
Nope. Still pretty bad. Maybe even worse now that he gets no attack speed buff from regular Q. Scruffy strikes again!
Well after the nerfs to the shield it's definitely easier, but if you're saying it's easy I would disagree and say you're definitely wrong. After level ~4 she's pretty safe from most poke.
Though I think the regen changes and the w nerf will make a big difference.
Mister Negative
Member
whoa, feral flare ward placement range is nuts.
Pretty much. I don't think this is a huge deal, Leona was easy to handle before and will just become sightly easier to handle, perhaps she will need to run hp/5 runes.
Thresh just gained another advantage in bot lane with this as he will have an even easier time against Leona.
Stone Ocean
Member
Leona is manageable if you get one of the two supports that can peel her off you, otherwise you might as well be picking Sivir/Lucian/Cait every game.
People do this regardless of whether there is a Leona in the game, so it's not a big deal I guess.
You're missing the inherent problem.People do this regardless of whether there is a Leona in the game, so it's not a big deal I guess.
I was referring to before patch 4.5. Also...this logic is flawed.
"No point calling Leblanc OP because Kayle exists"
Wolf Akela
Member
Is it just me or do URF games load slower than Normal games?
I really do not think that laning against Leona is difficult. There are so many supports/adcs that can handle it well, as long as you play it right. I know one of the problems with Leona is that she punishes people with bad positioning, but is much less useful when her opponents have proper positioning. This does make her a problem in lower ranks where people do not necessarily know how to position properly.
It will certainly become easier after the nerfs, though. I don't think they're a big deal though, Leona should still be able to do stuff, but she will be forced to position a bit better herself, which is fair, I suppose.
No, Leona restricts champion picks. If you don't have an escape, you're going to have to flash every time she ults you, especially during a gank whether your positioning is good or bad. She doesn't a ~40% lcs pick for no reason.
leona @ 19th in pick/ban stats. complains
meanwhile, thresh sits at 78% pick ban,
nope
no problem there
if we are really going to bring up 'lcs stats'
morg, leona, thresh, karma all share pretty even pick stats for the last week of 4.4
*shrug*
leona isnt the big deal here. if u complain that leona restricts champion picks cos she crushes sustain supports then u r accepting there are hard counters bot. morgana by definition hard counters leona. so we should see less leona, making her not even a problem
thresh is the real problem. he can do everything making it a base amount of utility required in supports, crushing people like soraka or taric who can really just do 1 thing.
meanwhile, thresh sits at 78% pick ban,
nope
no problem there
if we are really going to bring up 'lcs stats'
morg, leona, thresh, karma all share pretty even pick stats for the last week of 4.4
*shrug*
leona isnt the big deal here. if u complain that leona restricts champion picks cos she crushes sustain supports then u r accepting there are hard counters bot. morgana by definition hard counters leona. so we should see less leona, making her not even a problem
thresh is the real problem. he can do everything making it a base amount of utility required in supports, crushing people like soraka or taric who can really just do 1 thing.
Stone Ocean
Member
Leona is fine on her own accord.
The problem is when you combine her own scaling ability and stuff like carry junglers being the norm, having a support that can effectively lock you down while someone like Kha Zix or Lucian eats up kills bot whenever her ult is up is just overwhelming. In S3 if you were versus Leona as a escape-less carry you had room to do something about it, right now you either pick someone with an escape or Sivir because all she has to do is catch you this one time for things to go wrong.
She's basically the new Blitz. She's manageable but if she hits you after a few levels it's GG
The problem is when you combine her own scaling ability and stuff like carry junglers being the norm, having a support that can effectively lock you down while someone like Kha Zix or Lucian eats up kills bot whenever her ult is up is just overwhelming. In S3 if you were versus Leona as a escape-less carry you had room to do something about it, right now you either pick someone with an escape or Sivir because all she has to do is catch you this one time for things to go wrong.
She's basically the new Blitz. She's manageable but if she hits you after a few levels it's GG
It's no secret Thresh is too strong. He's the Kassadin of supports. Only reason I bring up Leona because people here believe she was "easy to manage" even before her nerfs.
So with the recent armor changes armor / lvl seems to be more worth it as jungler, since around level 6 they are even with flat and then proceed to have a greater effect. With the 4 base armor everyone gets, you'd have 6.88 at level 2 vs the 13 from before. at level 3 8.32. 9.76 at 5 and 12.64 at 6... ~30 at level 18. New flats yield 9 at all levels (13 with new base armor).
What do you think?
What do you think?
yeah i prtty much agree w/ this
shes good against ppl that dont know how to play against her, since when she's successful it hurtz
ive never thought of her main strength as laning, tho she certainly fit the particular meta mold
it was more her place as someone who could catch someone easily w/ siv or coin
like in NA at least, siv/shyv (or something similar)/leona was kind of a staple for a week or two
morg does well against leona but leona can beat morg too
Stone Ocean
Member
My biggest gripe with Leona is not her ability to have retarded initiation, it's that she has like half the downtime that other initiation supports do while laning.
Thresh misses a hook and you have 20 seconds to do go on the offensive and do something about it. Leona misses a jump and in 10 seconds she can just jump again. Thresh wastes his ult and gets a 150 second CD at rank 1, Leona gets 90, and so on.
There's only so much you can do in those 10 seconds, and if you stay too long she'll be able to turn it around as her skills come back up.
Thresh misses a hook and you have 20 seconds to do go on the offensive and do something about it. Leona misses a jump and in 10 seconds she can just jump again. Thresh wastes his ult and gets a 150 second CD at rank 1, Leona gets 90, and so on.
There's only so much you can do in those 10 seconds, and if you stay too long she'll be able to turn it around as her skills come back up.
iunno 10 seconds is a long time plus flay will be up
a lot of ppl dying to leona or leona + jung ganks at 6 were due to them just not playing around the enemy team's potential. its like when ppl die to draven over and over early, it just really should not be happening if u got burnt by the cheese b4
like, w/ panth ppl kinda expect him to drop at bot at 6 now, his ability to cheese out kills lowers because of that
a lot of ppl dying to leona or leona + jung ganks at 6 were due to them just not playing around the enemy team's potential. its like when ppl die to draven over and over early, it just really should not be happening if u got burnt by the cheese b4
like, w/ panth ppl kinda expect him to drop at bot at 6 now, his ability to cheese out kills lowers because of that
She's not nearly as much of a problem as Thresh, as you say. Her ult is a flash check, but we can't act as if doing it during a gank is a problem really. If it's not during a gank, you're still going to be able to outplay Leona + her adc with so many different combinations of adc/supports. I'm not going to go into the specific strategies here as I'm sure you know how to play bot lane.
We can't act as if mobility creep in adcs is there only due to Leona either, the adcs with mobility have essentially always been favored once adcs with mobility started to be released. They simply are safer with respect to jungle ganks and other cc in teamfights.
There's a reason so many Leona lanes goes for a lane swap in LCS as well, they know they will have a disadvantage in lane.
The difference here is that Thresh can contribute to the lane outside of his hook, he will still be able to save people with W, cancel Leona's E with his own E, and harass with his ranged attack. Leona cannot contribute to the lane when her E is down unless she gets to walk up into the face of the opponents.
PhillipCostigan
Member
you forget that Leona's a melee champion though. unless she can engage, she doesn't do anything. If she misses her stuff, that's 10 seconds of her being a sitting duck for poke.
if Thresh or Lulu or whatever miss their stuff, they're still a ranged champion that has tools to harass and shield their carries and stuff.
There are serious tradeoffs there.
Wolf Akela
Member
Not to mention, Thresh has the option to engage with Q. Leona can suicide if she engages with E at the wrong moment. Leona doesn't have any form of harass either. She's just get in and stay there.
if you miss your spells on thresh and lulu you usually have to back off, because that's the window for the enemy to trade with you.
Stone Ocean
Member
But unless they have like Warwick, any jungler will be killing them. Like, if any jungler that goes Elder Lizard drops by bot by the time he has finished it, it'll probably end up in a kill or at the very least a burnt flash or forcing out of your tower for long enough for them to take it down. It's not just playing to her potential, she basically dictates the pacing of the entirety of the laning phase with her presence alone.
The new HP runes might help dealing with her a lot if they allow you to survive getting jumped at, though. We'll see, I still have no idea how the LS quint nerf will affect adcs.
I think we're underestimating her defensive options.
she dictates the pacing of the laning phase the same as any other pick
you will always play according to your available kit and your enemy's available kit, and leona is not the only support that can kill you with jungler help
like the only 100% gank is a favorable dive
actually even that has to do with you or your team not being in the right place
you will always play according to your available kit and your enemy's available kit, and leona is not the only support that can kill you with jungler help
like the only 100% gank is a favorable dive
actually even that has to do with you or your team not being in the right place
PhillipCostigan
Member
but you still have more to do in lane if you miss your hook as thresh or miss your glitter lance as lulu than if you miss your zenith blade as leona.
Stone Ocean
Member
People seem to forget her defensive steroid scales with well, resistances. The tankier she gets, the tankier she gets. Leona has no trouble not dying.
Leona being binary isn't an excuse. Nidalee's only real, safe source of damage are her spears, that means they're fine as is, right?
You think that Leona and Thresh dictate the pacing of laning the same amount as other supports?
On the contrary, Nidalee being fine or not doesn't necessarily mean that Leona can't be fine as is. I would like to see more options for Leona contribute to lane as her defensive options in an unfavorable situation are quite bad compared to most other supports. By defensive options I don't mean only for herself, but also for her adc.
i dont think ppl are saying leona is binary, just that her ranged engage is based on a set of cooldowns
she has 4 spells that dont necessarily need to be comboed
i think every support dictates the pacing of laning in their own way and that you should play accordingly
i dont think any support is op in laning, though there are definitely ones that present more opportunities or put down more pressure
oh i c, when i said the same as other supports i dont mean the same way, I mean she's a champion pick like the other support is a champion pick and you should figure out what your options are because of that + u always have an ok amnt of options
remember leona began to be picked up when annie was king
she has 4 spells that dont necessarily need to be comboed
i think every support dictates the pacing of laning in their own way and that you should play accordingly
i dont think any support is op in laning, though there are definitely ones that present more opportunities or put down more pressure
oh i c, when i said the same as other supports i dont mean the same way, I mean she's a champion pick like the other support is a champion pick and you should figure out what your options are because of that + u always have an ok amnt of options
remember leona began to be picked up when annie was king
people should be allowed to take advantage of their power spikes?
leona doesnt dictate shit at lvl 1-2
lvl 5 leona is kinda jank too
dass not how binary works
Stone Ocean
Member
Combined with the current top tier carries? If you get caught by a lvl 2 Leona you'll at the very least lose two thirds of your health.
They're basically the feast-or-famine supports. The problem is that the balance is heavily skewed towards feast, moreso in Thresh's case since if he can't just downright get you killed, he can make damn sure his carry doesn't. Leona on the other hand either just sends you to an early grave or just stays there until 6, where she will hit you eventually.
Considering your post, what I'm trying to say is that the way Leona and Thresh to a lesser extent - because of the stuff he can do when behind - dictate the laning phase is too overwhelming for the state bot lane is right now.
They're basically the feast-or-famine supports. The problem is that the balance is heavily skewed towards feast, moreso in Thresh's case since if he can't just downright get you killed, he can make damn sure his carry doesn't. Leona on the other hand either just sends you to an early grave or just stays there until 6, where she will hit you eventually.
they are good for sure, and they definitely edge out picks like janna or soraka
i think ppl are just pointing out that all in engages have to be less stupid now
the idea that there are supports that can do whatever they want is wroooooong
i mean ive always been of the opinion that if you died in whatever lane w/o the jungler u fukked up
i think ppl are just pointing out that all in engages have to be less stupid now
the idea that there are supports that can do whatever they want is wroooooong
i mean ive always been of the opinion that if you died in whatever lane w/o the jungler u fukked up
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