-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
League of Legends |OT6| My AP Mid Can't Be This Cute
- Thread starter Dobkeratops
- Start date
- Status
Tbh tho, with the # to transform increased to 30 souls required I wouldn't mind that they make it 60 souls, with kills/assists worth 1 soul and large minions 2 souls. Feral flare itself should only stack from monsters tho. So that mite be hard to communicate
It already takes longer to gank than to farm n don't like this whole promoting farming squizz. I want this 1 soul to remind people that hey, you can still gank too!
It already takes longer to gank than to farm n don't like this whole promoting farming squizz. I want this 1 soul to remind people that hey, you can still gank too!
it still has stats. it still yields gold. it's not a dead item.
I think delaying it is fine. It gives it a clear trade off in time for the power it provides later.
It really depends on how strong Riot wants it for the late game. Right now Riot are showing clear intent that they want it to occupy a 6 item build so lowering the % dmg to champs isn't a solution.
The other alternative is to lower the starting damage of it - but that just means it turns on sooner, relatively.
It really depends on how strong Riot wants it for the late game. Right now Riot are showing clear intent that they want it to occupy a 6 item build so lowering the % dmg to champs isn't a solution.
The other alternative is to lower the starting damage of it - but that just means it turns on sooner, relatively.
PhillipCostigan
Member
would probably put more emphasis on farming than kills. It is a farming item after all.
Orochinagis
Member
Oh, ok then I will buy leona for tanking </3
https://www.facebook.com/Rekkles1/posts/445770222220930
read on for rekkles on runes and a hug at the bottom
read on for rekkles on runes and a hug at the bottom
you shouldn't buy leona for jungling.
Imperfected
Member
The confusion's probably coming from the fact that his big Xin Zhao game was the redacted one versus SK where the Aatrox bug caused the result to be contested.
If you count that game, though, it was a pretty decisive win and his Xin Zhao performed very well.
Edit: Catching up on the EU CS VODs for the day. Yi's pretty much what I expected: without Spirit Stone sustain he ends up running around the jungle at half health/mana most of the time and becomes ridiculously vulnerable to counter-jungling from the Elder Lizard Lee Sin, who's always topped off. That's going to be one of the inherent risks of the item for champions who don't have huge natural sustain in their kit if they go for Feral Flare.
You'd never transform the thing at 60 unless you never left the jungle. (oh unless it's just regular jungle monsters not large)
Is that good or bad? I haven't played jungle so don't know shit about feral flare and how many you should aim at by 20 minutes.
I honestly haven't seen 1 person use any spirit items ever since flare came out.
Imperfected
Member
14 stacks at 19 minutes is good, assuming he's talking about having 14 stacks on the actual item and not toward the item.
Pretty good considering he was involved in 6 kills at the time.
because it's way better than back when junglers just bought like aegis and oracles and that was it all game
Finn of Ooo
Member
One of the main advantages of jungling is giving three people ~ solo lane exp and farm. Also you don't get the same gold or levels unless you stick to farming or every gank you pull off is successful.
I agree with Zkylon. There's a middle ground. Junglers don't put themselves in the same danger as laners. IIRC about half of the champions with ban rates in the double digits are carry junglers. That's not right.
Stone Ocean
Member
That's like saying laners are only allowed to be champions that carry ultra hard with the gold they get.
Variety doesn't hurt. Carry junglers are a problem because they phase out support junglers, just like support junglers used to phase out carry junglers.
Also junglers don't get the same gold as laners unless they get fed.
don't get me wrong I think it's probably gone too far in the other direction right now for sure, but it's still a better situation than when junglers got nothing imo
Imperfected
Member
I think the ideal situation is one where every type of jungler - farming carry, ganking, tank/support, early and late-game - is viable at least in or against certain compositions.
The problem comes when only one type of jungler is viable regardless of the composition. That's the situation to be avoided. That said, keep in mind that right now the novelty of being able to play hard farming, late-game carry junglers for a change is going to dramatically drive up their pick rate, and not knowing how to play against them is going to naturally drive up their ban rate.
It remains to be seen if the pick/ban rate will remain high once the dust settles and people have time to actually look critically at the situation and ask whether or not they're actually getting good return on investment playing Yi and the like.
The problem comes when only one type of jungler is viable regardless of the composition. That's the situation to be avoided. That said, keep in mind that right now the novelty of being able to play hard farming, late-game carry junglers for a change is going to dramatically drive up their pick rate, and not knowing how to play against them is going to naturally drive up their ban rate.
It remains to be seen if the pick/ban rate will remain high once the dust settles and people have time to actually look critically at the situation and ask whether or not they're actually getting good return on investment playing Yi and the like.
Wat
It's going to be 30 with large monster = 1
I'm making it 60 with large monster = 2
Its the same thing I'm just trying to avoid using 0.5 for kills/assists
Idk why you want to make kills/assists worth more - the whole point of feral flare is that you sacrifice the early game for mid/late. Ganging shouldn't be better than farming. It's basically hand of midas
-------
My problem with feral flare is really just that it's difficult from a balance perspective. Like the conservation line of items, it's a magnifying glass in terms of capabilities. It doesn't make weak clearers better, it just makes strong clearers even stronger. It's even worse than the conservation line because the clear speed is directly tied to your auto attack speed. And then faster clear means a more godlike item
All this means is that either the item will be barely useful for all but x champions or that these x feral flare users will get nerfed. Which isn't a good looking solution
Shen, rammus etc used to take madreds to supplement their awful clears, and there's still no point for them to upgrade it. The fact that feral flare exists serves to push them more out of the game.
I think there needs to be a madreds upgrade for shitty clearers. Idk, Like have hp, as, and arm with the madreds passives and deal bonus aoe dmg to monsters based on bonus hp. Alternatively, monsters take damage based on your bonus hp whenever they hit you
i dunno guys, i mean i agree that tanky junglers might've been boring and spicing things up with damage-oriented junglers is a good thing, and that it might just be a matter of feral flame being broken atm but i don't think the idea of junglers afk farming is good variety
like junglers disrupting lanes is a positive thing in the game, i think at one point it was super annoying because mid was basically at best a 2v2 if your jungler ever listened to your "DUDE STOP WALKING OVER THE WARD I JUST TOLD YOU ABOUT" pings, so i can appreciate getting a bit more alone time with the other lane dude now but i just think the idea of someone getting a ton of gold barely interacting with anyone to be pretty lame
like i personally think carry junglers were already carrying without the need for this item to exist that basically turned caitlyns into vaynes or whatever
ed: i also think people are hating tank roles too much so tanks might need an overhaul themselves. like aoe dot spells are super uninteresting but i can't really think what else they could do. i think the malphite - sejuani - nautilus line of tanks is more fun than like mundo - shyvanna - renekton, but i dunno if anyone agrees with me. well maybe not renekton, renek is pretty fun actually. trundle too. tho manly men is not my area of expertise so
like junglers disrupting lanes is a positive thing in the game, i think at one point it was super annoying because mid was basically at best a 2v2 if your jungler ever listened to your "DUDE STOP WALKING OVER THE WARD I JUST TOLD YOU ABOUT" pings, so i can appreciate getting a bit more alone time with the other lane dude now but i just think the idea of someone getting a ton of gold barely interacting with anyone to be pretty lame
like i personally think carry junglers were already carrying without the need for this item to exist that basically turned caitlyns into vaynes or whatever
ed: i also think people are hating tank roles too much so tanks might need an overhaul themselves. like aoe dot spells are super uninteresting but i can't really think what else they could do. i think the malphite - sejuani - nautilus line of tanks is more fun than like mundo - shyvanna - renekton, but i dunno if anyone agrees with me. well maybe not renekton, renek is pretty fun actually. trundle too. tho manly men is not my area of expertise so
Imperfected
Member
like i personally think carry junglers were already carrying without the need for this item to exist and basically turning caitlyns into vaynes or whatever
I think you're 100% overreacting.
Every game I've played or seen since the patch has made one thing perfectly clear: AFK farming the jungler and letting your lanes go to shit because the other jungler is ganking while you're off faffing about does not work. There are not going to be any true AFK farmers, unless it's in a game where the laners already have such a ridiculous edge over their opponents that even jungle interaction can't turn them.
None of the carry junglers, Feral Flare or not, are so strong they can make up for having three lost lanes. They still have to interact with lanes. It is not optional. There is not a scenario where you literally just farm the jungle nonstop and win the game, unless it was a game you had easily in hand anyway. Like, yeah, if all your lanes were winning anyway you can just pitch a tent in the jungle and win, but guess what? Instead of "AFK farming" you could just literally AFK, three won lanes is a won game no matter how you cut it.
Think about it this way:
When new champions are released, they tend to have a ridiculous pick/ban rate unless they're total trash (sup Quinn). This isn't because they're actually that good, it's because people want to try the new champion, and other people either don't want to play against a champion they don't know anything about, or in a lot of cases actually don't want their own teammates to pick the champion because they expect them to do poorly on it.
Right now, we've basically got five or more brand new champions all at once.
You haven't been able to play Yi in serious games since his rework; it's been practically a reportable offense to instalock him. A lot of people playing the game right now have never actually played him outside of bot games/ARAMs. Most people haven't played him for years. A lot of people are going to be playing him because he is, for all intents and purposes, a brand new champion that they don't even have to buy.
A lot of the other junglers who are cropping up are the same way. Most people have probably never seriously played Fiora. Certainly, most people who don't play top lane have never played Jax. People are excited to try something new, and there's a lot of new stuff to try, so a disproportionately huge number of people are trying out new things.
It doesn't mean those things are broken or even very good. Give it time.
Stone Ocean
Member
One thing about Feral Flare is that when facing a Flare jungler counterjungling might actually start meaning something again. Stealing a Flare jungler's camp will hurt a whole lot more than stealing a Spirit Stone jungler's camp, not to mention is that dueling wise someone with Elder Lizard will probably slap a Flare jungler's shit.
lots of spirit stone junglers are reliant on the camps being up for general sustain. it's a fallacy to think that flare junglers will lose duels, and they're more likely to see you coming in for an invade with their free ward.
every team worth their weight has analysts nowadays anyway
bro do you even fallacy? sounds like we should actually nerf wriggles to give them a period of weakness that others can take advantage of
of course the large monster is generally more meaningful for flare users
Imperfected
Member
I can't believe you'd even suggest that when everyone's rushing Frozen Mallets all over the place.
Guhnmystro
Member
where did this come from.
Imperfected
Member
I agree, Nerf wits end.
Speaking of wits end, how do I irelia? Im so bad at her
Aside from Q tricks she's pretty foolproof. You beast trades with free true damage and sustain, build a quick BotRK and then either a Randuin's or maybe a Spirit Visage depending on your lane opponent, then just pour onto people in a torrent of pain.
I mean, teamfight wise she's brain-dead, it's mostly just surviving her early levels that you have to learn.
Stone Ocean
Member
For starters, don't buy Wit's EndISpeaking of wits end, how do I irelia? Im so bad at her
well like i said if you still have to interact with lanes why create an item that rewards non-interaction. like right now the item is broken so junglers that abuse the item can do both and farm and gank at the same time with feral flame. i've seen a couple scary ass shyvannas and evelynns feel like they're everywhere and end up with more gold than their mids.
but when the item's fixed and it basically turns into a "i'm shit mid game but make up for it lategame" item then i just wonder what's the point of supporting that gameplay on a jungler.
it's like making a support that's shit in lane :/
just why
if you make an item that to use effectively you can't gank at all it just wouldn't work, i think that's partly what he's saying too but yeah, it rewards not spending as much time ganking, which means you have to make sure the time you do spend ganking counts
Always hate when an item goes unused... but I'll make an exception for Atmas. That thing can burn in hell.
Orochinagis
Member
I mean give a try in Tanking rather than jungling.
Imperfected
Member
I think your definition of "rewards non-interaction" is too broad.
Does the Relic Shield reward non-interaction just because it specifically benefits from last-hitting minions? No, because last-hitting minions is part of the lane phase and while it may not be an "interactive" exchange by default, in almost any lane it will become one because the enemy laners will not allow you to use it freely.
Wriggle's is the same way. If the enemy jungler does nothing with the fact you've pitched a tent and decided to live in the jungle, that's no different from a duo lane just casually watching a Leona last-hit every cannon minion with Relic Shield and not trying to make it hard for her. If your opponent is living in the jungle, gank his lanes, take his towers, force his bottom lane to back and take dragon. Make him get involved. It's not his item's job to get him into lanes, it's his opponent's.
Does the Relic Shield reward non-interaction just because it specifically benefits from last-hitting minions? No, because last-hitting minions is part of the lane phase and while it may not be an "interactive" exchange by default, in almost any lane it will become one because the enemy laners will not allow you to use it freely.
Wriggle's is the same way. If the enemy jungler does nothing with the fact you've pitched a tent and decided to live in the jungle, that's no different from a duo lane just casually watching a Leona last-hit every cannon minion with Relic Shield and not trying to make it hard for her. If your opponent is living in the jungle, gank his lanes, take his towers, force his bottom lane to back and take dragon. Make him get involved. It's not his item's job to get him into lanes, it's his opponent's.
well like isn't it that the idea behind feral flame? that the item is pretty garbage until you have some stacks in it?
and like conservation isn't meant to make balancing ganking and jungling more important too? like if you get too many conservation stacks by ganking too much you're basically wasting money?
well leona is a tanky support, not a full tank, so while she does some of the tank duties of initiating and taking aggro and shit she won't really be zoning the carries or anything like that
you want someone like shyvanna if you want to do full tank
it's a lot riskier to invade the enemy jungle (and requires a much bigger investment in like vision and pushing lanes) than poking leona when she goes to get a relic shield proc. wriggles even gives you a free ward to defend yourself from invades, which to boot are less effective since smite changes and wight -_-
like relic shield is great because it's like thresh souls. actually getting the last hit/soul puts you in danger since it reveals what you're gonna do and forces you to go into enemy range
wriggles puts the enemy jungler at risk since it's him that has to overextend to get an advantage on you
- Status