-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
League of Legends |OT6| My AP Mid Can't Be This Cute
- Thread starter Dobkeratops
- Start date
- Status
i would hate for my champions to suddenly be unviable and to have to learn someone new just to stay relevant in the game
fotm chasing seems to me like the worst thing ever, i bought these champions, dedicated hours and hours to learning them not because they had better numbers but because i liked playing them
if mid was broken in the way that you say jungle i'd be pretty fucking sad. which i was in s3, back when i could basically only play ori cos every game it was fucking fizz, zed or khazix
nah, just adding my bit cos amumu is the only jungler i've ever liked
also people wanting champions like nautilus and maokai and sejuani and whatnot to be viable has been already been acknowledged by rito and they're apparently working on giving them a helping hand
Terbinator
Member
I might try my hand at jungle again
and trash some folks' ranked game whilst I learn them.
from experience i don't see people rushing for broken shit nowhere near as much as they do for junglers in lanes.
and sona's definitely playable, she's just no fun to play cos you're gonna have a shit laning and you're gonna get camped by jungler
well i like him, dodging bandage is fun and i like having him in my team. usually amumus aren't wannabe playmakers and build smart and whatever
Terbinator
Member
But last year it was Ahri/Ori/Zed mid and nothing more because they were broken, or at least, "OP".
And definitely playable =/= fun or viable. You have to survive the laning phase and then some to get going - that doesn't constitute playable IMO. There are simply better alternatives to Sona and lots of them.
Well yes it's fine if he's in your team, just like Yi, Xin, Noc...
There's tier champs for every role. It just so happens that this season, the jungle tier 1 are killers.
Top is all Shyvana, jax and Renekton.
Mid is Ziggs and LeBlanc.
Bot is probably the most balanced right now of all the positions. Even the Sona that you guys are shitting on still has a solid winrate in solo queue.
Top is all Shyvana, jax and Renekton.
Mid is Ziggs and LeBlanc.
Bot is probably the most balanced right now of all the positions. Even the Sona that you guys are shitting on still has a solid winrate in solo queue.
You're talking about your own preferences again man. I'm not you. The other jungler mains in the world aren't you.
you might not want to learn new champs and stick with what you're good at but I am not you.
Stop making it out like all junglers are never satisfied and Fotm is a toxic thing. You can always play blind pick if you dont like the meta.
I feel like this discussion belongs in 2011
you might not want to learn new champs and stick with what you're good at but I am not you.
Stop making it out like all junglers are never satisfied and Fotm is a toxic thing. You can always play blind pick if you dont like the meta.
I feel like this discussion belongs in 2011
champions being tiered and blind fotm chase is different tho.
like this line "Junglers have to follow Fotm to consistently do well because counter jungling becomes a huge problem for non-Fotm junglers"
that to me sounds like junglers are broken
you're not fucked if you don't pick ziggs or lebonk mid. even during the s3 assassin craze i played lizzy and syndra and ori and did really well, and i consistently see variety mid nowadays.
that just seems strange for me
ed: like in contrast to myself who i've always just played whatever i liked simply because of how they looked and done just fine like that.
i'm not making out anything, i already said it was my impression. no need to be mean
like this line "Junglers have to follow Fotm to consistently do well because counter jungling becomes a huge problem for non-Fotm junglers"
that to me sounds like junglers are broken
you're not fucked if you don't pick ziggs or lebonk mid. even during the s3 assassin craze i played lizzy and syndra and ori and did really well, and i consistently see variety mid nowadays.
like i said on my first post, i'm just expressing what i see in junglers, like my jungler main friends. they jump from champion to champion then get upset when they get nerfed and are always asking for something else to be viable
that just seems strange for me
ed: like in contrast to myself who i've always just played whatever i liked simply because of how they looked and done just fine like that.
i'm not making out anything, i already said it was my impression. no need to be mean
Wolf Akela
Member
I just got Eve (and then the Tango Eve skin because oh god that default skin splash art)
is it pretty much only AP Eve these days or is AD Eve still a thing? I wanna try FF Eve
??? In contrast, AD Eve gained traction while AP Eve got less popular ever since they changed E to physical.
oh okay, I checked the mobafire guides and they were pretty much all AP so I was wondering. The damage output of Q with a full AP build seems rather ridicules though
Take a look here http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Evelynn
You can see all the build the pros have been running recently.
Wolf Akela
Member
Written guides can be outdated, and Mobafire is usually the worst with regards to that. LolKing has written guides, but you can see the rank of the player so you can judge for yourself how much you can trust what they write.
Check sites like ProBuilds since they list the builds pros do in their latest matches. It also gives you some context on what they do on what situations, although you don't get an explanation why.
Q actually scales fairly evenly with AD and AP (wiki).
The e change really hampered her ap playstyle as you can't explode people anymore.
I feel AD eve is the way to go now. Plays more like a chaser and can duel people which was one of her main weak points. If you get fed BOTRK fits really well with her kit but you should opt for some defensive items after building FF or SotAL.
I feel AD eve is the way to go now. Plays more like a chaser and can duel people which was one of her main weak points. If you get fed BOTRK fits really well with her kit but you should opt for some defensive items after building FF or SotAL.
much obliged
Unfortunately, all competitive games have tiers. If you want to win, you got to stick to the meta. If you want to have fun, play whatever you want. For some winning = fun. Some people like to keep things interesting and playing different champs every couple of weeks. You like to play your particular pool of champions, that's fine. Ideally, every champ would be viable, but I don't think that is the case in any lane.
Well, this line depends on the elo you are playing. If you're in diamond, choosing a weak jungle is as bad as choosing a weak mid.
Ferga said:
Me! Nautilus' lockdown chain is among the more satisfying things to do in this game. Hell, even his regular ganks are really satisfying. Having a guy blow his flash and *yoink* hook him right back feels great.
Zkylon said:
Lots of reason, none of which I think have been stated.
1.) The jungle doesn't have years of built up orthodoxy like other positions. We've seen the competitive viability utility/support junglers, tank junglers, bruiser junglers, etc. People invest their time into those champions and would like to continue to play them without hamstringing their team - a reasonable request.
2.) The jungler is the keystone of the team. More than any other position, it's the jungler that enables the team's strategy because, among other reasons, the jungle allows for roaming (e.g. picking Vi into an assassin/burst comp) and can effectively hide important champions who would be liabilities in lane (e.g. Amumu into an AoE comp).
Since the beginning of season 2 Riot has a stated goal of broadening the viable jungle picks as much as possible, which in turn broadens the available strategies, which in turn broadens the viable lane picks. The majority of players who jungle a lot (in my opinion which I hold with zero facts) know this - some consciously, most unconsciously. When they complain that they want X jungler to be viable, they're saying they want Y team composition to be viable.
Wolf Akela
Member
kass is back gais
I really wish I could get all Archangel, RoA and Gauntlet but it's too much delayed power. They 2v1'd me with Kat + Velkoz though I did exceptional with my laning. Got around a little over CS than those two combined. I got very barely hurt in lane thanks to timed Qs. I was OOM for a long while while my health stayed above 90%. Kass really needed his last set of buffs.
I really wish I could get all Archangel, RoA and Gauntlet but it's too much delayed power. They 2v1'd me with Kat + Velkoz though I did exceptional with my laning. Got around a little over CS than those two combined. I got very barely hurt in lane thanks to timed Qs. I was OOM for a long while while my health stayed above 90%. Kass really needed his last set of buffs.
...yay.
Wolf Akela
Member
I've seen some solid Kassadins lately. He seems to be more in line with the current power balance though. Not quite as OP.
I think I'm ok with him.
people say this but the hardest and most complete ass-whooping i ever suffered was at the hands of a Sion. There is value to be mined in obscurity.
This is true. The meta isn't everything (only in pro level competitive play). Amumu was used as an example in the discussion and last night an Amumu carried our team (he even 1v3).
PhillipCostigan
Member
I'll never for get the time I took Quinn top and was against a Nocturne.
Fuck that. Or the very first time I played Yasuo, I was laned top against a Taric who built straight armour. He had more than I had AD.
Never again.
Kassidin is so solid, Kiunch has forsaken his waifus and taking up a husbando.
Yes.
Terbinator
Member
I had an Urgot top in my team a few weeks back who absolutely trashed their Jax(I think). and the rest of the team. I'm sure he finished up 17/2 or something ridiculous.
Urgot top.
It isn't like jungling was the only role impacted by changes this season. The pool of logical top lane champions drastically shrunk, and there's a greater emphasis on supports and top laners both to provide tankiness to their team. S3 jungle diversity has had problems because Rito broke Spirit Stone and machete to give higher returns to champions with high damage yields after making the jungle harder to clear.
Blatant item and champion imbalances have had an impact on every lane. You can still pick whatever you want and get away with it if you know what you're doing though, but life is hard when you don't conform to the meta regardless of role. Jungling is only super bad right now because of the introduction of Feral Flare, but top lane and support were/are huge problem areas for the entire season.
I laned against a Sejuani mid once as Kat. That was horrible. Why was she so strong? Why??
Terbinator
Member
It's like that awful summon from FF13.
They were all fucking terrible in that game.
Some men just want to watch the world burn.
Terbinator
Member
Lol, just about to do a promo game and we have Amumu jungle and they have Naut.
no thats not meta it cant happen arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Sounds like a gentleman's agreement between junglers.
I had an overly aggro Naut on my team in my one ranked game last night. The only reason he was viable was I was Yasuo. All the knockups. He kept ulting the wrong targets at the wrong time though. Was frustrating.
I like Amumu. He's pretty potent if you can avoid the early invade. Kinda like a fiddle.
Crab Milk Mickey
Member
My stance on the Feral Flare nerfs isn't so much influenced by the FoTM transitions that the jungle (all roles, for that matter) goes through; most are either mindnumbingly boring to me or I prefer to play them as laners (like Elise or Pantheon). I was just glad that after months and months of obscurity, Wriggles was finally in a decent enough state for me to buy it on jungle Trundle (with a worthwhile upgrade to boot) and now Riot is overdoing it with their attempts to tone it down.
You could make a valid argument against Feral Flare having infinite stacks and I'd likely agree, but the way they're handling its balance just irks me. It's not as if those that synergize with it are overbearingly strong either; said champions usually have straight-forward playstyles and are easily punished, yet there's a lot of belly-aching that *gasp* these previously underplayed champions like Xin Zhao (who's not that good imo) and Master Yi are now being dug up again with varying degrees of success. Meanwhile, for long periods of time Riot was perfectly content on only handing out babyslaps to Ancient Golem when it was the dominant Spirit Stone item. At a much slower rate than the time it took for them to get crackin' on "fixing" Feral Flare, in a case of double-standards regarding jungle builds. Now if they gave it something meaningful in return it wouldn't be so bad, but currently they aren't despite their claims to reprioritize its team-oriented benefits. Damage is being toned down once more (when they already did a few times before) which I don't necessarily object to, the extra gold passive remains at 30% even though at 40% it still nearly always yielded drastically lower gold income than the Spirit Stone line and the upgrade still requires 30 stacks. Maybe Wriggles receiving the ability to build up stacks on kills and assists will be a significant improvement, but I doubt it.
In this instance, I'd rather they nerf individual Feral Flare champions if Riot truly deems them problematic and buff weaker (comparatively speaking) junglers like Sejuani.
Anything can be broken in low elo though, so "x being so good" doesn't mean a whole lot when the average player there still has a long way to go to fully understand the game, with plenty of room for improvement left to brush up his skills. Always thought balancing around low elo was a bit silly, quite frankly.
I don't understand this logic. The flare is what caused the uprising in this champions and causing them to be claimed "OP". Why would you neuter those champions when we all know it's the flare causing the problem? The thing was just way to powerful. You stick it on someone like xin and he's an undying machine who can build tanky and still dish out a shit ton of damage. The changes will tone down the damage, the self heal but in return you're going to be able to participate in ganks/team fights and not feel like you're giving up earning stacks.
I'd say it's less about low elo and more about pub games in general. To counteract a flare jungler you need a lot of coordination from your team, something that isn't guaranteed unless you're a premade.
Crab Milk Mickey
Member
I agree that some aspects of Flare might be a bit too much, but the lengths at which they're nerfing it in quick succession with seemingly no compensation is what bothers me. Also, you're overselling Xin Zhao.
people gotta stop exaggerating about how "bad" non-meta jungle picks are, you can totally play amumu and do great if you play well, some champs are stronger than others sure and if all you want to do is climb elo then by all means play the OP stuff.
But you can do well in ranked and climb playing stuff like amumu or nautilus if you play really well.
But you can do well in ranked and climb playing stuff like amumu or nautilus if you play really well.
Terbinator
Member
This was in ranked though, where picks are semi-serious.
I'd say gaining stacks for kills/assists is a decent compensation.
Sure they do well, if you're left alone in your jungle. I mean that's always been the problem with junglers like them, the feral flare just makes it much worse.
It's a problem you can deal with though, make sure jungle entrances are warded, try not to pick junglers with bad clears etc. if you have particularly weak lanes, be smart about what fights you take, you can give up a buff and a lead early game as someone like amumu and be fine because you're probably going to be more useful later on.
like, if you play amumu/nautilus, it isn't immediately game over if their xin zhao tries to counter-jungle you
i dont play top in ranked tho.
It's a fine line. Especially in lower elos. In Gold I cannot rely on my laners to help in the jungle. The map awareness just isn't there. Ping 100x and sometimes they just won't see it. They will sometimes. But not always.
If you get late invaded as a fiddle or an amumu and lose your blue and potentially die. Now you're set back to the point where you are unlikely to gank when a feral flare Xin will definitely be ganking. He will start to snowball the lanes so they can't support you. Warding every entrance yourself is super expensive when you are behind and if I were that Xin, I would be deep warding and killing Amumu or Fiddle in their jungle every time I can.
The early game abuse of non-meta jungles is real.
That said, you can often get away with it because the opponent jungler isn't going to take advantage of your weak early game. It almost completely depends on the competency of your laners and their jungler.
Fiddlesticks doesn't give a shit if you invade him. Amumu's early game isn't that bad either. With trinkets I think it's not usually that hard to avoid letting an invade do serious damage to you early game.
Or maybe you just don't understand how to play them.
Fair enough. But I know how to play against them and that's exactly what I do. Sejuani is the only "control" jungler I'd play right now because of her more reliable escape. Invaded? Just Q and walk away. Farm another camp.
Even the Naut I just played with was getting invaded hard and if I didn't leave my lane every time to go help, he would have had a bad day.
like, pretty much this, ward your jungle, give your lanes more time to react than theirs, remember that the enemy team is slow to react too probably
Sejuani has the weakest early game of any traditional jungler in the game. Her first clear is mortifying and she has no tools to deal with early invades because her sustain is garbage. I would rather be Amumu, who doesn't have anywhere near the issues that Sejuani and Nautilus do.
For sej and naut, their early clears are so weak that they need to rely heavily on ability usage for clearing. Naut is weak to invades because it's easy to abuse the shield being down. with both, it always comes down to appropriately using your trinket. It's easy to say you have an escape on Sejuani but you need to use Q to clear, and then it's not up for another 15 seconds.
Terbinator
Member
Ugh. Just had a smurf TF feed our game away because he can. He's even added me post-game (Diamond 3) to prove his worth.. I guess?
Unreal.
Unreal.
- Status