PhillipCostigan
Member
Scarra and Froggen have been saying Karthus is really strong right now for a while.
Wonder if the VU will make more people realise it.
Wonder if the VU will make more people realise it.
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League of Legends |OT6| My AP Mid Can't Be This Cute
- Thread starter Dobkeratops
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all assasins nerfed they'll say.You mean like heal and exhaust?
sustain champions not meta anymore they'll say.
nooooooo. still Q>W>E
Wolf Akela
Member
Not giving an ADC so many things: burst/sustain damage, mobility (chase/escape), waveclear and decent poke. When is he ever a bad pick in terms of team and enemy comp?
Pre-nerf Ezreal was safe, mobile, high DPS and can outduel other ADCs. They toned down his DPS (lower base ASPD), dueling capability (removed ASPD debuff) and waveclear (larger ult damage dropoff). You can still pick him for safety and poke, and not because he lacked any downside.
Stone Ocean
Member
Yep. You have no reason to level up E second, it just increases the slow slightly while reducing the cooldown.
You get a lot more utility out of leveling E second in the jungle. Lowered cooldown and better slow means better ganks. W is not at all necessary for jungle unless you are dueling a lot. You don't need the sustain or attack speed increase to keep up the clears.
25-45% slow is a big jump.
Stone Ocean
Member
An extra 5% slow and 3 seconds shaved off from the CD as opposed to 5% more movement speed, 15% more attack speed and 3% more healing per rank?
You don't use the W to clear, you use it to take objectives. A successful gank means you can easily take towers / dragon with it. If you can kill someone at level 8 with a 30% slow, you can kill someone at level 8 with a 25% slow. Needing to get to level 13 to get a 20% increase in slow is also a big jump and not in a good way.
except the aoe is tiny, the cooldown reduction is irrelevantly small at intial levels and 40% movement speed over x10 the radius is pretty coolio. plus there's the pushing and objective control powers of W.
it's just... such an incredible waste.
Bingo. Being able to use two pillars during teamfights is more important to jungle Trundle than putting out some more damage.
Stone Ocean said:
Much less important than on top lane Trundle because you won't often be taking objectives solo after a successful gank.
It's not even about the slow (though the 20% increase is definitely nice) it's 20% slow plus a pillar every 11 seconds vs 23 seconds not including CDR. Being able to pillar multiple times in a fight is significant, moreso than the increased attack speed. Trundle doesn't do that much damage in the jungle. You just aren't building him that way. Plus if you go botrk first you're already getting a lot of attack speed from that. The pillars are the utility and are what set up ganks, control positioning in teamfights and displace people to disrupt skillshots and channeled abilities.
I hate to quote riot here but the pillars are what separates the good Trundles from the great Trundles.
It's a lot easier to gank with a good pillar than increased attack speed.
edit: Trundle is a utility tank in the jungle. What's more useful in teamfight from a utility tank? Displacement/cc or more 70 damage melee auto attacks?
edit2: I'm not saying maxing W isn't an option. You'll have to decide what's better. In general, the pillar brings more value to the team when it counts - teamfights. If you're splitting all day or just focusing on small skirmishes then W might be better.
Tizoc
Member
On the one hand buffing his E in ARAM is one way to go if you want assist kills.
Gotcha thanks.
Started this match by feeding fucking Teemo. At one point he was going top and I hid at a bush, he walks up to the bush and I waste his midgety ass.
Fucking Teemo.
Throughout the mid til late I focused on Turrets and apparently I lost the Baron to the other team, which evoked the rage of my team mates =V
In the end though we won, still need to work at getting better with Trundle.
Gotcha thanks.
Started this match by feeding fucking Teemo. At one point he was going top and I hid at a bush, he walks up to the bush and I waste his midgety ass.
Fucking Teemo.
Throughout the mid til late I focused on Turrets and apparently I lost the Baron to the other team, which evoked the rage of my team mates =V
In the end though we won, still need to work at getting better with Trundle.
It's gonna be like Twitch, then.
Crab Milk Mickey
Member
If the enemy jungler is a fast farmer or you're not going to get much ganks off regardless, then maxing W is more 'optimal' yes. Otherwise maxing his Pillar after Q is more beneficial overall, for the control it gives you on the map, for objectives and in teamfights. 45% slow on a significantly lowered cooldown (with vision) also makes it that much easier to obtain assists.
You can start by ditching the Sunfire Cape. ಠ_ಠ
In the end though we won, still need to work at getting better with Trundle.
in a hundred games how often are you going to get anything out of a 3 second faster pillar.
you're talking about 11 second pillars and ganks. you are not going to be getting many level 15 ganks off that justify that. at best you're hoping to catch someone in the jungle but in order to do it you're significantly weakening your ability to actually duel once you catch someone. that's just bad.garath said:
in your actual ganks you're getting a level 2-3 pillar vs a level 1.you need to justify how a 17 second gank is totes legit but a 23 second one isnt.
Does chat restriction affect pregame/postgame lobbies as well? Last night I saw some person/people go completely nuts...WHO MAY HAVE JUST WON THEIR GAME, saying they hope our mother dies of cancer, they hope our entire family dies of cancer, just complete balls-to-the-walls bizarre rage.
*edit* Also you used not one but TWO obscenities in that post alone, so I'm not sure what your obscenity-to-sentence ratio is ingame.
League of Legends |OT7| #NotAllDuos
Forget level 8. The fact that the slow increases with level is supplemental to the real reason you max E second. Let's talk about level 13. This is right around the time laning phase starts to break down (or has already) and teamfights are happening. What is more useful when the teamfights start - a trundle that can pillar every 11 seconds with 20% more slow or a trundle that can melee attack 60% faster and run around the pool 20% faster?
Good luck. I'm still scarred by my three times promo loss to d5.
Stone Ocean
Member
How many fights and skirmishes will have happened by the time you hit 13? How often does laning even last that long? How much CDR will you have by then and how often will you even need to pillar twice if your team is not braindead?
Because the CD goes all the way down to 11 seconds and only has a few seconds dead time with even a moderate amount of CDR. You can't just look at what a skill offers on a per level basis.
Stone Ocean said:
How many happen after you hit 13? That's the real question. You want those faster pillars available when you need them.
Re: Trundle
W: 20% AS to 80% is pretty huge
E: 25% slow to 45% + 23s cd to 11s is pretty huge too
Bbasically, max W if youre going to split push lane vs your lane opponent (common with TP) as it gives you disgusting dueling power with the heal boost + huge AS%, huge tower pressure and pushing power
Max E if youre behind in lane - cant split push - therefore will wanna team fight a lot. gives u 2x stronk pillars in a team fight
As the meta goes, maxing W is the usual choice for top trundle
W: 20% AS to 80% is pretty huge
E: 25% slow to 45% + 23s cd to 11s is pretty huge too
Bbasically, max W if youre going to split push lane vs your lane opponent (common with TP) as it gives you disgusting dueling power with the heal boost + huge AS%, huge tower pressure and pushing power
Max E if youre behind in lane - cant split push - therefore will wanna team fight a lot. gives u 2x stronk pillars in a team fight
As the meta goes, maxing W is the usual choice for top trundle
At this point not much else can be said about it. You have three? jungle mains (is Crab a jungle main?) who happen to play Trundle in the jungle talking about the virtues of maxing E second. W is viable and a good option in certain situations but E provides more utility in general.
Teamfights last longer than 10 seconds quite regularly.
Teamfights last longer than 10 seconds quite regularly.
No one is disputing that. The debate is about jungle Trundle.
garath said:
Yeah, like, sure you can max W second but the thing to consider is that you want to pair jungle Trundle with a top that can deal a solid amount of damage. W becomes unnecessary as a source of damage vs. objectives and champions. I can see W becoming an option in the case made by Crab or in team comps where your top brings a good amount of utility/CC on their own but so-so damage (e.g. Malphite) but in the latter I'd rather not pick Trundle as a jungler anyways.
Crab Milk Mickey
Member
Trundle often doesn't need more than 1 point in W to start outdueling most melee junglers if you set him up correctly (items, runes and masteries). Plain faster movement speed also isn't sufficient enough to actually reach whoever is kiting him; Shyvanna is already a non-threat for any mobile ADC (see Tristana) and if raw movement speed was enough, we'd be seeing more of Udyr too while we're at it. A more potent Pillar on the other hand does make Trundle more dangerous within that role, never mind that (as already mentioned) 11 - 13 - whatever seconds is inaccurate since the actual downtime is even shorter. Want more sustain prior to a ranked-up W? Buy a Spirit Visage or lifesteal.
I've had plenty of moments where I gained more out of a faster Pillar, and I've played Trundle jungle more than anyone else here. Maxing W second is situational, but for top lane it's indeed a no-brainer.
diamondprox likes to max E first on jg trundle
q-w-e-q max e>q>w
that e is a terror in ganks.
Terbinator
Member
*edit* Also you used not one but TWO obscenities in that post alone, so I'm not sure what your obscenity-to-sentence ratio is ingame.
But I've been mega try harding to the point I didn't speak outside of champ select and just used pings even when behind as I was literally going for gold (went from 0LP to 97 in one day). Like I say, I only went mad in one game which was my second loss out of five in my promos.
Stone Ocean
Member
We're having a civil discussion and I'm open to being convinced I'm wrong, but if you're going to pull the "we know better than you" card I'll see myself out.
Terbinator
Member
What's with all these Ghostblade Zeds too?
Ok bye.
That "card" is: We've talked about the numbers, but the numbers don't represent what a good pillar does in a teamfight. It's a non-quantifiable factor in this discussion that provides much more value in action than it does on paper. Despite the attempts to describe this I keep seeing "3 second cooldown and 5% slow not worth", "how is that second pillar going to help", "your teammates suck if you need that second pillar" etc etc.
/shrug
and lets talk about all the objectives you skirmished over and turrets you helped push between levels 7-13. lets talk about the duels you had to run away from.
yeah, those 2 trundle ranked games in 2 seasons demonstrates your confidence in trundle.
trundles my second most played champ this season. in the game of 'who plays trundle', i play him. you do not. If you want to play an exerpience card than crab's the only one on your team who should be talking.
Stone Ocean
Member
Tristana is fine. She does not need AD ratios when her base damages are stupid.
She just needs some of the clunkyness of her kit shaved off and a couple bugs - specially the E bug which is INFURIATING - fixed.
Terbinator
Member
Pls no.
Oi. This is going nowhere.
And you played him in the jungle all those times right?....
I've played 18 TOTAL games in ranked this season. No, trundle in the jungle was not on my list of ranked games (however, I did play him top once and maxed W second as you should). However, I've played plenty of it in normals. Fact is, he's not a top tier jungler no matter how you look at it. But if you're going to do it, the guys that have done it suggest maxing E second.
Yeah, just weird seeing an ADC with no ad ratios. Also wasn't it the R bug? Or we are taking about something entirely different?
She's so fun though, has a lot of self peel and becomes a late game monster with that passive of hers.
Yeah, but Diamond also does stuff like max Q on Xin Zhao if he's playing with people he's familiar with. If I knew I could count of my laners setting up ganks properly I might consider it from time to time myself.
garath said:
Probably more accurate to say that he's team comp dependent. I can think of lots of situations I'd rather have him than Kha'Zix, etc. That's even more true now with those 'Zix changes on the PBE.
*squish*
Terbinator
Member
She's just a gigantic pain in the Nami though to support against.
Stone Ocean
Member
The R bug got fixed - and it was a good bug anyways.
The E bug is when if you auto to last hit a minion but miss and the minion dies before your auto connects, the passive from your E will still proc, getting your lane pushed and making you miss even more last hits even though you got no gold for that kill.
Trundle's damage output and mobility are too low to ignore maxing Frozen Domain second even from the jungle. Yes, pillars can be strong, but Frozen Domain is a huge piece of Trundle's kit that has a massive impact on fights.
Benefits to upgrading W include:
Move speed:
20% -> 40%
Attack Speed:
20% -> 80%
And Healing/regen Increase:
8% -> 20%.
Avoiding this ability will give Trundle considerably weaker clear speed, diminished sustain, lower objective control, diminished viability in duels, and less pushing power. If you're not going to take advantage of these aspects of Trundle's kit you're better off playing something else. Other junglers will simply bring more damage and mobility and even potentially utility and just dump on a Trundle maxing pillar, which isn't even an effective tool against many of the junglers currently in play that have some kind of jump. Also consider the fact that a heavy attack speed page is beneficial to junglers and stat effective, so having bonuses to that are extremely helpful.
Benefits to upgrading W include:
Move speed:
20% -> 40%
Attack Speed:
20% -> 80%
And Healing/regen Increase:
8% -> 20%.
Avoiding this ability will give Trundle considerably weaker clear speed, diminished sustain, lower objective control, diminished viability in duels, and less pushing power. If you're not going to take advantage of these aspects of Trundle's kit you're better off playing something else. Other junglers will simply bring more damage and mobility and even potentially utility and just dump on a Trundle maxing pillar, which isn't even an effective tool against many of the junglers currently in play that have some kind of jump. Also consider the fact that a heavy attack speed page is beneficial to junglers and stat effective, so having bonuses to that are extremely helpful.
Lol, what you think about picking Nami into Morgana? Did that last night and had lots of success.
Now that you described it, I felt like that did happen to me when I played her. It was something very quick and I brushed it off.
Nami into Morgana is decent for Nami.
Terbinator
Member
I don't mind this as it's easy to bait the shield out from range.
Tizoc
Member
Yeah I dunno why I made it though it might have to do with my twitch reaction at buying it since at the time I had enough cash for it heh ^^;
...but yeah lately I've avoided making Sunfire Cape until like last or as a 2nd armor (unless there's a better alternative?)
hextech.
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